Lets talk about customs

_Malal

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#1
In an effort to legalize customs early on, Amazing Ampharos submitted an open proposal: TOs pre-make the eight most viable custom sets for each character from the 3DS version and it is the players responsibility to transfer their set if it not one of those eight.

The problem, for Lucario that is, is that I feel he has far more than eight viable sets.

All Neutral Bs have their Niches in multiple MUs.

SideBs less so, but Advancing Force Palm is often paired with Snaring Aura Sphere and Long-Distance Force Palm has been stated to Revenge Kill at 0%

UpB used to be only default, but in lieu of the current Nerf to hard landing, Ride the Wind might be worth exploring.

I am of the probably unpopular opinion that default Double Team is the least desirable DownB. Stunning guarantees whatever follow-up or kill move you please and does not force yourself offstage if you do not wish to attack approaching instage. Glancing Counter consistently beats grabs head on and I have had it stuff pokes clean, this is important with the spotdodge & jab nerf from brawl. It is also in my anecdotal experience, far less punishable on whiff.

However these are just my thoughts, one opinion. A dubious opinion considering I cannot attend events for this game until early 2015.

I'm going to outline what data we currently have (only the default specials, I believe. I would greatly appreciate frame data on customs) and then perhaps we may discuss sets or the moves individually?

B (Aura Sphere):
"charging hitbox" begins on frame 12
fully charges in 104 frames
hits as early as frame 20 after firing
charging can be interrupted by shield starting frame 13
shield on frame 64 after firing
full charge does 12%
full charge has high kill potential

Side+B (Force Palm):
"flame" hits on frame 24
"grab" hits on frame 9
shield on frame 65 if whiffed

Up+B (Extreme Speed):
hits on frame 46
helpless on frame 75
shield on frame 38 (after landing lag)
(Probably inaccurate now, needs data for soft/bounce/hard landing)

Down+B (Double Team):
earliest activation on frame 4/latest on frame 36
hits on frame 26 (after activation)
shield on frame 76 (after activation)/shield on frame 81 if whiffed
 

_Malal

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#2
Neutral B

Aura Sphere
= Default Special
+ Argubly Lucario's Strongest consistent punish and landing catch.
- In an environment with customs allowed, tends to lose the projectile war vs projectile heavy characters.

Snaring Aura Sphere
+ Denies space for a significant ammount of time
+ Retains kill power on full charge
+ Adds creative options to edgeguard opponents with linear recoveries, especially if your ledge teching is consistent
? Does not seem as strong nearly full charged as default
- increased startup and recovery
- lose one of your most powerful tools for punishing landings far from lucario
= would link croi's post if mobile would let me.

Piercing Aura Sphere
+ Always trades with projectiles at worst
+ Increased projectile travel speed
+ Horizontal knockback pushes people offstage easier
= Not as big of deal if pocketed or reflected
- charging hitbox significantly smaller
- noticably weaker than other 2 options in kill power.

Side B

Force Palm:
= default
+ Lucario's fastest kill move at 9 frames on the grab
+ Very effective zoning with dash away pivot sideB
= most well rounded sideB?

Dashing Force Palm:
+ Covers a good distance in front of Lucario
+ pairs well with Snaring
- possibly spotdodged on reaction(?)
- Significantly less kill power

Long Distance Force Palm:
+ Longer Flame distance
+ Stronger Knockback at 0% (?)
- More startup on both grab and flame

Up B

Extremespeed:
+ Best balance of speed, distance and curving ability
+ has a hitbox on the end
- Horrendous recovery frames on hard landing

Ride the Wind:
+ Longer recovery distance
+ easier curving
+ Hard landing less recovery frames
- slower travel speed
- no hitbox
- has a bit of a learning curve to controlling it

Extremespeed Attack
+ An attack the whole way through after startup
- cannot be curved
- Less distance, in fact, I am unsure it's distance scales with percentage at all.

Down B

Double Team:
+ At high aura, Absurd kill power on counterattack
+ long period of invulnerability on counterattack
+ Fairly reliable for closing the distance on characters with slow moving projectiles
+ Aids recovery
- tends to throw you offstage sometimes
- slightly telegraphed as an approach on projectile characters still, in spite of the massive invulnerability frames.
- intangible on counter startup means you're immune to grabs... Only to get grabbed again or hit with a harder punish

Stunning Double Team:
+ Gurantees your choice of follow-up on a successful counter (at non-kill % might keep your momentum going?)
+ Faster counterattack activation
+/- Keeps you in place, you won't ever fly offstage, but you won't be really changing your spacing.
- same deal as regular counter when your opponent attempts to grab during startup.

Glancing Counter:
+ Beats the dash attack/dash grab mixup head on
+ same utility as spotdodge -> jab from brawl after deep nair/instant dair
+ Did I mention it beats banana Toss forward -> grab?
= Annecdotal, but not as hilariously punishable on whiff/non power shield.
- doesn't cover behind him
- no kill potential to speak of.


-----

Reserved post for organizational purposes.

I'd like to add that regardless of his proposal goes through or not it is probably benefectual for us to discuss and collect data on customs.

Edit: added stuff!
 
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Pentao

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#3
ExtremeSpeed Attack has very little landing lag, and when aimed downward can actually pseudo spike some opponents. That said, I think it should be left exclusively to players who really want it until Lucario players get more used to using it.

For our Aura Sphere option, do we know which match ups prefer Piercing? Piercing is a fun one due to how fast it is, but you lose potential kill power with it, and it doesn't do much damage either. Snaring and Standard are both solid options all around.

The main two sets I advocate are:

Standard Sphere
Ride the Wind / Standard Extreme Speed
Standard Force Palm
Standard Double Team

Snaring Sphere
Ride the Wind / Standard Extreme Speed
Standard Force Palm
Standard Double Team


Ride the Wind is pretty easy to maneuver around people, has huge distance, and gives us the option to land on stage with some minor penalty. It helps to use RtW to get up to stages with more difficult to grab ledges, since you can get stuck under the stage if you aren't good at aiming.
 

_Malal

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#4
Piercing is consistent as a punish tool due to it's speed and projectile vs projectile trades.

It's hit trajectory sets you up for ledge traps very consistently in my experience (Where I believe the bulk of Lucario's kills will come from) and I've actually got plenty of kills sniping people offstage with it.

In terms of matchups it affects, I'd take it every time vs Samus, and I'd consider it heavily vs Villager/Marth/Duck Hunt/Mac

It's probably the most underwhelming option, but everytime I've taken it in projectile wars + villager I've never regretted it.
 
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Croi

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#5
His Snagging Aura Sphere might be the most OP move in the game, in my experience.

Pros:
  • It hits multiple times
  • It hits just as hard as normal Aura Sphere and scales with Aura/Rage just as effectively (although it hits at a higher angle)
  • If your opponent is on the ledge, you can throw a fully charged one and it'll move so slowly and its inward windbox is so strong that if they try anything at all (including rolling onto the stage) they'll get bopped. You can even throw a baby AS right after for extra coverage. Check this clip out for an example: http://youtu.be/vG2GTFItUN4?t=1m07s Hell, actually, just watch this whole video, it's a great example for how OP Snagging Aura Sphere is
  • You can throw one under a platform and they will be forced to go over it, where you'll be waiting. Or they can just run away, and that's whatever because it puts you back in a neutral position
  • You can throw it into the stage if you're recovering and they absolutely cannot try to edgeguard you
  • You can throw one, then run into it and Force Palm and it's 100% safe
  • You can b-reverse one into the stage if your opponent is recovering for a really aggressive and effective edgeguard (especially good for characters with linear recoveries, e.g. Mario, Captain Falcon, maybe Rosalina)

Cons:
  • You have more cooldown than with a normal Aura Sphere
  • ???
  • It might not be as effective against characters with reflectors

Seriously, if you go to a tournament and it has customs legal, use Snagging Aura Sphere. It's the perfect weapon.
His other customs are pretty good and useful for different MUs, but Snaring Aura Sphere is godtier.
 

_Malal

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#6
His other customs are pretty good and useful for different MUs, but Snaring Aura Sphere is godtier.
I've got mixed feelings about it since the delay between hits is pretty weird.

I've been grabbed out of throwing it point blank, had the snare hit them out of grab, GOT GRABBED AGAIN, thrown, and then they got hit by the snare. (1.03 though)

I feel like the startup and recovery added doesn't help in matchups vs mobile characters, and being unable to throw it to dissuade edgeguarding as easily is a big deal.

If you don't pair it with advancing force palm you lose reactionary punishes that the other 2 would have for free

But the ledge traps with it is very strong, it'd be straight up broken with less recovery.

I'm not convinced theres a matchup where it is strictly better, rather it changes how the matchup is played when you take it over default.

I reaaally wish I had frame data on it though lol
 

_Malal

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#8
I'm not keen on doing frame data for customs because then I'd have to do them for every character I do/have done.
Understandable.

I'd do it if I still had a desktop :( had to sell mine to afford a WiiU.

Missing data of importance:
Startup/Recovery differences on Neutral B
Interverral between hits on Snaring Aura Sphere.
Startup/Active of both SideB customs.
Exact active frames of hitbox/invulnerability/recovery out of invuln over on Double Team.
Counter frame on stunning counter verified same?
Activated Counter startup on stunning counter faster?
Glancing Counter's first invulnerable/intangible frame?
Does the hitbox on glancing counter go active immediately after invulnerability runs out?
Exact recovery on Soft land/Bounce land/Hard Land on WiiU 1.01/3DS 1.04 for default Extremespeed?

Worth noting that these might be in Dantarion's Data-dump if we find the correct addresses. Would not be surprised if Snaring Aura Sphere was an article though.
 
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#9
The more I think about it I think Glancing Counter has potential in certain matchups.

That'd pretty much shut down so many Yoshi, Ness, Marth, Lucina, etc. approaches.
 

_Malal

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#10
Edited in strengths, weaknesses and other such statements.

Thoughts?


Also to get the ball rolling...

Since Diddy Kong's MU doesn't really change with customs (outside maybe SideB on like, battlefield) What set do you think is the most effective against him?

Glancing gets them to stop being so damn trigger happy on Grab in my experience

I like default for the classic Aura Sphere trade with jump cancel banana toss, but I haven't had the chance to test Snaring on his recovery.

On paper it seems to really **** over his UpB if we get him to go low.
 

CaliburChamp

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#11
I can confirm that lucario extreme speed attack (custom 3) does extend when highly damage though not as much range as his default. It also doesn't suffer the landing lag like default up b does. Its my #1 choice for up b and is an easy to hit with KO attack and its also useful in team battles due to its bigger hitbox.
Piercing AS is great for teams as well. It can also pass through Luma and hit Rosalina, overall its a good spammy move.
Snaring AS is good against grounded based fighters like little Mac or any close ranged fighters like sonic or c. Falcon.
The long range side b is my favorite. It shuts down many approaches while being a safe tool so lucario isn't at risk of being KOed as easily. The down b's are situational. Though I guess default down b is the best.

Edit: Another interesting analysis of snaring aura sphere is that the 999% one sucks them in at a farther distance than the snaring aura sphere at 0%.
 
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Kami~

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#12
I seriously feel all of lucarios customs are generally terrible. Sacrificing kill power for gimmicks

The only one I see viable is piercing AS for gimping

Glancing counter has so much lag on miss its ridiculous and even if you actually land it the kill power is awful.

If someone actually gets hit by snaring sphere I worry that they haven't played the game for more than a week
It could be ok with edgeguarding but if you just shoot it every time someone is on the ledge they'll learn and get out of the situation before it happens with the hideous cooldown of snaring. Also it's very easy to get out of after the first hit which is sad

Default upb is the only viable one and no words need to be said about that
Default force palm is the best with its kill power and startup. LR fp has slower startup and the range is barely increased on the gun hitbox, characters with good dash speed could probably punish you on block. Advancing force palm is so amazing looking but in the end it's not good. Unless you just like knocking the opponent away at 140% so they can come back.
 

_Malal

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#13
You underestimate the space Snaring Aura Sphere denies

I would sorta agree if that windbox didn't pull them in, it stops people from just short hopping over it in most cases.

Speaking of Advancing Force Palm... I have actually been having it kill at sane percentages in the WiiU version.

Maybe about as strong as Brawl Force Palm? I need to try it out more.

No opinion on Long Range FP, I've never seriously used it yet 'cept in doubles.

Glancing's sucess depends if having a sidestep -> jab substitute is really important, and it had less cooldown than you think.
 

Kami~

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#14
why kill at "sane" percentages when default fp kills at ridiculous %'s

Even the brawl fp was stronger than advancing fp*

you know, glacing could be a jab sub since if you miss either you're getting punished. that's smart but default counter has much more options imo. And no one knows to to deal with the invnci frames on counter

I just dont think snaring is a threat til someone shows me it is and not vs for glory level kids
 
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_Malal

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#16
why kill at "sane" percentages when default fp kills at ridiculous %'s
Force Palm is a 9 frame kill grab, that's 3 frames slower than the standard grab (6), and the range on it is similar enough that baits and reactions waiting for grab will ussually work on force palm's kill hit too.

The distance Advancing Force Palm covers on the grab is much longer, admittedly the same range where the default flame covers, but to have a huge zone where they get grabbed in front of you cannot be ignored, and cannot be waited and baited the same as regular grab or default.

So for easier ability to get the grab, I think being able to kill if both players are >100% is fair.

Not as ridiculous as getting force palmed at 50% while Lucario is at max, but that's a fringe case and entirely your fault if that happens.

That being said, due to the lack of the flame hitbox (or rather it existing but not really doing much) I'd probably stick with default vs characters like Rosie/Olimar where dash away pivot flame really helps.

It also remains to be seen if it can be reactionary spotdodged ala Ganon Flame Choke.

I haven't seen WiiU footage of snaring unfortunately, maybe soon?


Edit: SWF doesn't like to play well with mobile copy and paste quotes.

@ Steam Steam
It's pretty ridiculous yeah, if Lucario still had jab -> Force Palm....
 
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_Malal

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#18
Advancing force palm kills no where near 100% lol
Have you tried it in 1.04 3DS/1.01 WiiU?

I've been surprising myself with how many kills I've been getting with it without even intending to.

Also with how many I've died early to jank stuff.

I'm confident that the people I play are competent enough that they're holding towards corners too.

Ignoring all of that though the > means over 100 not at 100
 
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Space thing

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#19
Just tested it real quick on the 3DS: On FD, advancing FPG doesn't kill a level 1 AI Fox (a pretty light character) when both and Fox Lucario are handicapped at 100%. It does kill him at a little above that.

It kills light wights and maybe mid wights (Mario at 125% if he's at the ledge when Lucario is at 100%) at reasonable percents. I hear that people die earlier on the Wii U so it might be quite a bit better on that.

Also for reference, Long-range FPG seems to have very slightly more knockback than regular FPG, but it also sends the opponent at a far more horizontal angle. It still seems to generally kill earlier though.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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#20
It looks like Lucario used one of his many priority moves to get this topic made before I was ready and that you guys are making good progress. That's all good actually; I am just going to clarify what we're ultimately looking for in terms of output. We want up to three critical sets that represent Lucario's best general purpose options and then to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental sets that may be more niche (match-up specific, team-centric, or just less popular ideas) not including 1111 of course since that's always available not matter what. You guys are already having a vibrant discussion on the merits of Lucario's honestly more interesting than average options; I trust you will succeed in this.
 

Steam

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#21
I vote the priority move was vaccum wave, specs lucario <3

honestly I think 1111 is Lucario's best bet. 3111 might be good for rosalina but it's obviously niche like IMO the rest of his sets are. some people prefer snaring aurasphere as well, but it seems like the other 3 default specials are the best.
 

Kami~

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#22
Warning Received
I vote the priority move was vaccum wave, specs lucario <3

honestly I think 1111 is Lucario's best bet. 3111 might be good for rosalina but it's obviously niche like IMO the rest of his sets are. some people prefer snaring aurasphere as well, but it seems like the other 3 default specials are the best.
sorry you're a ****ing scrub if you use any customs with lucario, me and steam agree. have fun with your customs against lvl 9 cpus
 
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#23
sorry you're a ****ing scrub if you use any customs with lucario, me and steam agree. have fun with your customs against lvl 9 cpus
Croi has been winning tournaments with Snaring. I'd watch his vids before you discount that custom. Other customs seem meh at best tho.

Also, be careful what you say might be "broken" because I gets the feeling Ninteno may peek in from time to time, to see what they can hit us with the nerf bat.
 

Croi

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#26
I don't need to watch day 1 scrubs getting hit by the slowest move in the game
I'll have you know they were day 3 scrubs tyvm

But seriously, Snaring Aura Sphere's best utility isn't in actually hitting your opponent, it's about pressure. When you throw one out, you're robbing your opponent of at least one option, no matter where the sphere is. Throw it in the air and they must approach from the ground and vice-versa. The gravity windbox further forces them to do something they may not be comfortable with in order to escape your whirling blue ball of doom. The idea is that once they are forced to commit to an option, you will have an answer for it.

The fact that it still hits really hard is honestly secondary. And, just like the anti-Aura arguments you see against Lucario, don't think of it as them being scrubs for getting hit by the slowest move in the game - think of it as you being MLG for learning to use it well and capitalizing on the options it steals from your opponent.
 
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Kami~

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#27
I'll have you know they were day 3 scrubs tyvm

But seriously, Snaring Aura Sphere's best utility isn't in actually hitting your opponent, it's about pressure. When you throw one out, you're robbing your opponent of at least one option, no matter where the sphere is. Throw it in the air and they must approach from the ground and vice-versa. The gravity windbox further forces them to do something they may not be comfortable with in order to escape your whirling blue ball of doom. The idea is that once they are forced to commit to an option, you will have an answer for it.

The fact that it still hits really hard is honestly secondary. And, just like the anti-Aura arguments you see against Lucario, don't think of it as them being scrubs for getting hit by the slowest move in the game - think of it as you being MLG for learning to use it well and capitalizing on the options it steals from your opponent.
I still feel default covers much more options. but i dont wanna get into a long drawn argument over which covers which. GOODLUCK WITH YOUR BALL OF SLOWNESS
 

Pentao

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#28
Does anyone know if bombs stop Piercing Sphere? Specifically Link or Toon Link. If they can't, then I would suggest Piercing in that match up, simply because outzoning/camping them is useful and prevents them from playing defensively. Piercing Sphere seems nice if you want to use it for Aura Sphere's range and camping abilities. It edgeguards alright too if you want to try and KO with it.

Since it's so weak in terms of raw knockback, it feels like it's okay to throw without worry against people with reflectors. It's harder to react to due to it's speed anyway. Piercing can probably work in all sorts of match ups, but the KO Power and versatility of the other two spheres can be too good to pass up.


On a side note, Snaring Aura Sphere destroys CPUs more often than not. They have no idea how to deal with it (though sometimes they perfect shield every hit of it, but more often than not they roll away from it, and then get sucked back in).

I've tried Snaring out, and I feel like it is indeed useful. Even in match ups where I wouldn't normally pick it (like Vs. Samus) it came in handy, as it doesn't go away, covers your recovery, and can be used as a trap. The worst thing for an opponent is dodging the snaring sphere, only to get hit back into it.
 

_Malal

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#29
> Sticky

O-oh.

Piercing goes through all projectiles that normally stop Aurasphere

Even uncharged (don't actually do this though)

Tbh I think luc's top 4 sets look like this (1111 not included since it doesn't take up a custom slot, I do agree it's probably the most rounded set)

2111 &
2211 (Fatty bullying)
3111 (Preference vs Characters who stop Aurasphere with bombs and physical walls)
1112 (Direct Answer to Superspeed, very decent answer to grab centric characters and playstyles when DT slide is not needed)


DownB is player preference, and esgeguarding hasn't developed to the point where we would need to slash in Ride the Wind.

VS other customs, it's kinda important to have answers to things like Superspeed, Counter Timber (without risking your life to pocket), and like Ike's everything.

Thoughts?

(Eyy kami probably not best to take a position like that if you want people to listen to you, even if ya'll decent)
 

Amazing Ampharos

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#31
It sounds like by far the most important two sets to include for Lucario are 2111 and 3111 since all three of his projectiles do important, different things for him. Among the remaining non-default options, I've seen some amount of love for both side variants, up-2, one post liking up-3, and down-2. I'm kinda thinking something like...

Critical:

2111
3111

Supplemental:

2211 [Advancing Force Palm seems obviously pointless without Snaring Aura Sphere]
1311
1121
1112

Would this probably be the set that would leave the largest variety of Lucarios happy, or do the match-ups in which Ride the Wind and whatever down-2 is called call for further customs as well (I'm not very familiar with the pros and cons of those particular niches)?
 

_Malal

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#32
Down 2 is glancing counter.

It helps mostly vs people who often open luc up with a mixup that involves running and grabbing you or hitting you.

I'd probably add:
2213
1113

For the gratified "I have bad synergy with my partner, so I'm going to try and not hit them with sliding counter" sets in doubles

That being said, only using those sets leaves a lot of room for Odd ducks to put in their personals which would be nice.

(Someone other than me please respond, I'd rather not be the sole decider here)
 

Kami~

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#33
only nubs have any input on this because real lucario mains realize 90% of them are useless. sorry
 

Kami~

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#35
Why dont you go play some more for glory and try to learn from the millions who are above you
 
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_Malal

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#36
I am playing daily.

With opponents that agree to the use of customs.

We're not doing anything productive fighting with each other so this will be my last response to you in this thread.
 

Croi

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#37
Well... all of his customs are garbage. The other Force Palms aren't worth it. His other Double Teams are super not worth it. Ride The Wind is a huge maybe.

Piercing Aura Sphere is good for exactly one MU (more if you're scared of reflectors) and Snaring Aura Sphere, despite my vouching for it, definitely has its weaknesses.

It's not like Mario's Gust Cape, where there's literally no reason not to use it. Lucario works great without any customs and using either of his other AS's is a definite win-some-lose-some. When it comes to the question this thread is asking - "Should we normalize our customs" - the only ones I'd ask for are the two Aura Spheres, and even then it'd be heavily player-dependent.
 
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_Malal

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#39
Meta post

If his customs are not great, it would be more benefectual to know why instead of write them off as dead with no explanation.

I do not mind if that's the conclusion we reach, as long as we have something to show for it, so thank you croi

---

What one match-up are you speaking of Croi? I can think of at least 3 off the top of my head where I'd want piercing where reflectors are not even involved.


Default DT ****s over stunning in most singles matches you want to use them in yeah.

But I'm not convinced the risk is worth it all the time Vs Sheik, Falcon, Diddy, Marth in particular :( (Greninja used to be in this list before I learned to DT small stars)

Having a safe-ish option to beat grab/grab bait pokes clean with glancing counter in those match-ups really help. (I will eat my shoe if the invulnerability starts up slower than default, it definitely feels just as fast)

The other force palms are definitely circumstantial at best, With dashing the only significant gain you receive is that it's far easier to setup the grab for lesser kill power (if it did not kill at all, it would be irredeemable) but you lose a good zoning option in the flame burst.

I don't know anything about long distance force palm.

I still think there's room for optimization in certain MUs, but 1111 is still probably his "best overall" and if you were locked into one set for the entire tournament where others were using customs, would most definitely be safer choice.
 
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Kami~

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#40
Meta post

If his customs are not great, it would be more benefectual to know why instead of write them off as dead with no explanation.

I do not mind if that's the conclusion we reach, as long as we have something to show for it, so thank you croi

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What one match-up are you speaking of Croi? I can think of at least 3 off the top of my head where I'd want piercing where reflectors are not even involved.


Default DT ****s over stunning in most singles matches you want to use them in yeah.

But I'm not convinced the risk is worth it all the time Vs Sheik, Falcon, Diddy, Marth in particular :( (Greninja used to be in this list before I learned to DT small stars)

Having a safe-ish option to beat grab/grab bait pokes clean with glancing counter in those match-ups really help. (I will eat my shoe if the invulnerability starts up slower than default, it definitely feels just as fast)

The other force palms are definitely circumstantial at best, With dashing the only significant gain you receive is that it's far easier to setup the grab for lesser kill power (if it did not kill at all, it would be irredeemable) but you lose a good zoning option in the flame burst.

I don't know anything about long distance force palm.

I still think there's room for optimization in certain MUs, but 1111 is still probably his "best overall" and if you were locked into one set for the entire tournament where others were using customs, would most definitely be safer choice.
lol at having any form of hope for glancing counter, of all moves I think this is probably the worst

the range is awful, kill power awful, and if you do somehow manage to land it your opponent will be ready for it next time. and on miss this move is probably the most punishable. the payout is low and the risk is high where atleast default DT if activated you're completely safe because of the massive invulnerability. Both are high risk moves but there is no payout for glancing and even most dash attacks will go through it and leave you open. Move is only half decent for grabs

LR FP is bad if you like your command grab.. The range isnt massively increased from default and it comes out much slower. The LR grab sends them at a more horizontal angle if not DI'd which gives the illusion it kills earlier but its actually just the lack of DI. Range barely increased and the command grab comes out much slower so more time to break it and harder to land because they have more time to react. Terrible move

Ride the wind is completely useless, not as much as the brawl distance custom but this one is right behind it. Only use this if you're not confident in your aim on upb. It moves so slow and you're asking to be a target. or use it for the extra range if you're afraid of being gimped but oh yeah..i dont think thats possible
 
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