Let's take a new approach to this MK topic...

[Dojo]

*Takes a deep breath*

Before I start, I'd like to say I'm neutral in this debate of MK's overpowered ability and whether he should be banned or not. I've seen both sides of the story. I've had stronger feelings towards both sides at one point.

I understand he is overpowered, as of right now at least. I do feel that steps can be taken towards other characters to catch up to his level, TO AN EXTENT, by further developing their respective metagames. Perhaps not completely, but to the point where we can at least, God willing, find a counter.

Everybody is so focused on banning/not banning and trying handicaps that nobody is really trying everything they can to actually beat him. At least not openly. So let's take that approach. Let's all try to understand why he is as good as he is now. Let's understand what makes him so much better than other characters, and see if we can create ways to work around this.

I'm not sure if this thread will make it anywhere. It may not even spark any intelligent discussion or valid information, but all other banning/handicap threads just go to silly bickering after a page for a viewpoint that 99% of these boards won't change their mind over anyways.

So perhaps, just maybe... This thread can, by God's fortune, accomplish a little more than the others.

Creativity is a must here... We can't just think outside the box. We have to tear it up. Brawl seems so limited to what is possible that most people find a safezone of what works for their character and stick with that. They won't search deeper and look for more possibilities. These are the one's that refuse to go further and would rather whine and complain and argue for the banhammer. As competitors, we must go further. We must have that will to compete and overcome the challenge. If there is a way, we must find it. So with all that being said.... *Takes another deep breath* let's get started....






Well let's start off by first trying to understand what makes him "broken."

We as a community all understand he has the whole package.
He has a strong ground game, strong aerial game, amazing recovery, insane gimping abilities, over the top priority, and a nice set of kill moves. We must break down his gameplay... and find ways to compete with and perhaps counter each aspect of it.

Let's start with his onstage approaching. Approaching is a big part of MK's game and if used right, can pressure and overwhelm most players and cause them to break down. He has an overwhelming pressure set of moves with his dtilt, ftilt, dsmash, fsmash, aerials, shuttle loop, and of course... the nado. This set combined with fast ground speed, multiple jumps, and close to lagless moves makes it seemingly impossible to overcome.

Top tiers and even most of high tier's with enough work can find a way around this IMO. It is MUCH harder for mid tiers, although some I feel have the potential to do. (Ie. Santi's TL keeps me from being as aggressive as usual when I play him) Although for the majority of the bottom tier will not be able to do much damage but HOPEFULLY something can work.


So let's begin with that...
Let's try to bring MK back down to Earth a little.








Hopefully if enough people are willing to work, they can take this project further, within they're own respective character boards. I've noticed the Diddy boards are already doing that. <3 What all can your character do to slow him down? What stages can you go? What benefits you? Brainstorm everything. Think of every possible way that you can, and then some, to slow him down.

 

[Dojo]

Well it's time to get rolling.


I'm going to go ahead and put up some of the most controversial matchups that go "Even with MK" and we can all go completely in depth with those as to what it takes to win this matchup from both point of views.

Snake, Yoshi, and Diddy,(in no particular order) all seem to have some of the strongest controversial debates at how close this uphill battle is. If anybody feels another character should be added and willing to provide alot of in-depth info on it then we can discuss that as well.

It seems like Diddy has had the most discussion in this thread as of now, so we'll get started with him first.

 

[Espy Rose]

Jeez, that makes 8 Meta Knight threads on one page in this forum.

Whatever. Good shiz though Dojo. I'll see if there's anything left for the Sonic boards to discuss about MK...

*shudders*

Top tiers and even most of high tier's with enough work can find a way around this IMO. It is MUCH harder for mid tiers, although some I feel have the potential to do. (Ie. Santi's TL keeps me from being as aggressive as usual when I play him) Although for the majority of the bottom tier will not be able to do much damage but HOPEFULLY something can work.

Just don't hold your breath bud. You know just as well as I that anyone mid and below'll get ***** [not overly beaten. Just, ya know, beaten] by competent MKs.

At this point, the best any character at that point can do is figure out how to survive a bit longer before losing.

I've really been trying to do this for some time. So have most of the Peaches- Edrees having had the most success. Even then, it's such a ridiculously uphill battle...

I approve of this.

 

[Praxis]

I've really been trying to do this for some time. So have most of the Peaches- Edrees having had the most success. Even then, it's such a ridiculously uphill battle...

I'll continue doing everything I can, because if it was possible for me to consistently beat MK's or fight them as well as any other character, that'd be preferable to a ban (better the devil you know, right?). But I'm effectively convinced that it won't happen. MK will continue to improve (and indeed has shown himself to do so) at a faster rate than the others because of his attributes IMO. Won't stop me from trying, but that was one of the conclusions that led me to believe he should be banned.

 

[DRaGZ]

I've been doing something similar in my "Elements of Brawl" thread. He excels in nearly every important aspect of the game except he's only "bearable" at extreme long distance and he's "intermediate" at staying power, and I think that is disputable.

 

[Tony_]

Oddly enough, low and bottom tiers (depending on the character) don't have many problems facing MK.

 

[AmigoOne]

^^
No.

That is all

 

[Mmac]

Right now, It seems like Snake, Yoshi, Olimar, ZSS, Diddy, Kirby, and Lucario have the best chance against MetaKnight who hasn't been completely debunked yet (G&W, DK, Bowser). It seems like I am missing one or two people though....

 

[Nasanieru]

I've really been trying to do this for some time. So have most of the Peaches- Edrees having had the most success. Even then, it's such a ridiculously uphill battle...

MK is like a slightly more powerful Yun from SFIII:3S. No weakness in any matchup, but MK has way too many low risk-high reward attacks that are abused.

Also a Peach main, fighting MK is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Winnable, but ridiculously unfair in terms of what you have to do to take him out compared to what he has to do to kill you.

 

[Dojo]

Jeez, that makes 8 Meta Knight threads on one page in this forum.

Whatever. Good shiz though Dojo. I'll see if there's anything left for the Sonic boards to discuss about MK...

*shudders*



Just don't hold your breath bud. You know just as well as I that anyone mid and below'll get ***** [not overly beaten. Just, ya know, beaten] by competent MKs.

At this point, the best any character at that point can do is figure out how to survive a bit longer before losing.

Yeah, well the other's from what I've seen is all about his banishment, and handicaps of his playability in the game. I'd rather see what we can do about him in game while we can. And if all fails, then the ban should come. And thank you.

And I understand. I know it's more than a hell freezes over chance, but we'll see what comes of this.

I've really been trying to do this for some time. So have most of the Peaches- Edrees having had the most success. Even then, it's such a ridiculously uphill battle...

I'll continue doing everything I can, because if it was possible for me to consistently beat MK's or fight them as well as any other character, that'd be preferable to a ban (better the devil you know, right?). But I'm effectively convinced that it won't happen. MK will continue to improve (and indeed has shown himself to do so) at a faster rate than the others because of his attributes IMO. Won't stop me from trying, but that was one of the conclusions that led me to believe he should be banned.

Yeah, I played Edrees in a money match at Hobo 11. He's amazing. I had to take him to Luigi's and gay it up in Round 3 rather shamefully to win it. And even then he played smart, patient, and took it very close. I understand how much of an uphill battle it can be. What I want to accomplish is bring narrow that hill down as much as possible to have a chance against him.

Thank you for at least trying. Any input you'd have to help out here would be a nice start. Although I see where you're coming from. I disagree, at least as of now. From seeing what M2K was capable of doing, I honestly don't know if he can improve drastically from there. Only time can tell, hence the reason he hasn't been banned yet. So let's see if we can do anything while we have the time. And like I said above, when it's all said and done, if all this fails as well, then I shall be 100% towards his ban.

Right now, It seems like Snake, Yoshi, Olimar, ZSS, Diddy, Kirby, and Lucario have the best chance against MetaKnight who hasn't been completely debunked yet (G&W, DK, Bowser). It seems like I am missing one or two people though....

These character's would perhaps be a good place to start. We can find ways to hopefully counter each aspect of his gameplay with some of these characters and see what works, what doesn't work, where it'll work, what more we can do, and all that jazz.

Seeing as how players will know more about they're own characters then I will, I'm going to need help to accomplish this. I can provide as much information as I can regarding what MK can and can't do, and hopefully other MK's will join me. We all have to work together on this...

 

[Vyse]

I've noticed the Diddy boards are already doing that. <3

http://www.smashboards.com./showthread.php?t=201953
<3

And I completely agree. I too am rather neutral, but I also want to see the debate come to an end, or at least take the direction it needs.

Rather than discussing what is, we need to figure out what can be done.

 

[deepseadiva]

Let's try to bring MK back down to Earth a little.

This statement is what every SWF member needs to read.
And while this is another MK thread, I applaud the effort.

 

[Mmac]

Gah! I forgot Falco!

I knew I forgot someone on my list

 

[Espy Rose]

Yeah, well the other's from what I've seen is all about his banishment, and handicaps of his playability in the game. I'd rather see what we can do about him in game while we can. And if all fails, then the ban should come. And thank you.

And I understand. I know it's more than a hell freezes over chance, but we'll see what comes of this.

I don't know why, but your last statement just makes my laugh.

Oh hey, are you gonna come to the next Gamelot Monthly in November?

Perhaps we could play a few Sonic v. MK matches and get a feel for how the match is set up in terms of what Sonic's options are at any point in the game.

Maybe $1 money match? =P

I'm a bit stingy when it comes to money, and I've never mmed before.

 

[Dojo]

I doubt I'll be there. But who knows. It's a way's away. We'll see what happens. If so I'd be glad too.

I'm off to bed for the night. School and work tomorrow. I plan to work on this alot more thoroughly over the next week and hopefully a good ways into the future as long as people cooperate with me. I really hope this works...

 

[BentoBox]

Are we supposed to discuss all of this in here? If so...

Well, when it comes to Peach, I think what sets us at a direct disadvantage is our dependence on her air game which while clearly inferior to MKs also gets any aerial approach easily punished by the tornado. I was just watching Edrees' third match against Plank and everytime he'd start floating, he'd be eaten alive by a nado, against which Peach has no real reliable way of countering once stuck in it (D-air works less than half the time, I really don't understand how the nado works. And DIing up and away isn't a reliable method of getting out when the MK can just keep tapping B and follow your DI...). Knowing that, and I think that's something Dojo noted, Edrees baited some nados by faking an aerial approach and punished it with a Fsmash. I really think that if we'd stay grounded, we'd have better odds. But then, MK's ground game is by far superior to ours in terms of speed/power ratio, hence forcing us to abuse her jab game as a response to practically everything MK throws, as its her fastest move, along with being somewhat safe. But even then, that's not enough when faced against MK's pressure game, close quarters. All of that led me to think about capitalizing on MK's only "weakness" being that he has no projectiles and is thus forced to approach if sniped from afar; spamming turnips (throwing them directly at him or creating mortar-like walls by throwing them upwards, etc) and keeping MK away with throws/dsmash/whatever and only closing in for the kill, might be the most efficient way of fighting MK.

Except that last time I did that, the timer went down in 2 games of a set, and I had a higher % in both :'[.

Oh and I also noticed at some point in the game that when Edrees Powershielded a hit from the tornado (3:58) and was able to get out it immediately. Perhaps worth looking into, though that would be hard to time...

Of course, the regular d-air combos/f-air approaches and whatnot work well too, but it's always a risk taken to approach MK when Peach does such a bad job at capitalizing on MK's tiny vulnerable windows due to lag. Imo.

Anyways, Edrees/Praxis might share different views, so I'll only be sharing my P.O.V. Peach is amongst the few characters who was given so much versatility that no player plays alike, as everyone enjoys different facets of her game. I love to spam. XD

 

[salaboB]

Just a thought -- it was pointed out to me that the more direct playstyle such as what MK favors is what everyone is used to from Melee. Things like Diddy with his less direct pressure are going to be the slower metagames to develop, so if anyone knows of other characters (Besides Snake, obviously) who also can indirectly apply pressure to people and do battlefield control that might be able to turn it against MK, that might be a good matchup to work on too.

Edit: It was also pointed out to me that camping and projectile spamming were where the metagame started at, then people learned MK could approach. So I guess what I'm suggesting is actual battlefield control metagames, not camping metagames, should be looked at closely for the best chances to deal with MK. Even if a master camping strategy is found that can beat MK I'm not sure that would be a good thing for Brawl

 

[Discolicious]

Brawl+ will solve Mk problems...flame away lol

 

[Mmac]

Brawl+ will solve Mk problems...flame away lol

Yeah, while sacrificing 3 Characters in the process. Besides, I don't think any of the stuff you put in will help overcome MetaKnight's weaknesses

 

[Praxis]

Are we supposed to discuss all of this in here? If so...

Well, when it comes to Peach, I think what sets us at a direct disadvantage is our dependence on her air game which while clearly inferior to MKs also gets any aerial approach easily punished by the tornado. I was just watching Edrees' third match against Plank and everytime he'd start floating, he'd be eaten alive by a nado, against which Peach has no real reliable way of countering once stuck in it (D-air works less than half the time, I really don't understand how the nado works. And DIing up and away isn't a reliable method of getting out when the MK can just keep tapping B and follow your DI...). Knowing that, and I think that's something Dojo noted, Edrees baited some nados by faking an aerial approach and punished it with a Fsmash. I really think that if we'd stay grounded, we'd have better odds. But then, MK's ground game is by far superior to ours in terms of speed/power ratio, hence forcing us to abuse her jab game as a response to practically everything MK throws, as its her fastest move, along with being somewhat safe. But even then, that's not enough when faced against MK's pressure game, close quarters. All of that led me to think about capitalizing on MK's only "weakness" being that he has no projectiles and is thus forced to approach if sniped from afar; spamming turnips and keeping MK away with throws/dsmash/whatever and only closing in for the kill, might be the most efficient way of fighting MK.

Except that last time I did that, the timer went down in 2 games of a set, and I had a higher % in both :'[.

Oh and I also noticed at some point in the game that when Edrees Powershielded a hit from the tornado (3:58) and was able to get out it immediately. Perhaps worth looking into, though that would be hard to time...

Of course, the regular d-air combos/f-air approaches and whatnot work well too, but it's always a risk taken to approach MK when Peach does such a bad job at capitalizing on MK's tiny vulnerable windows due to lag. Imo.

Anyways, Edrees/Praxis might share different views, so I'll only be sharing my P.O.V. Peach is amongst the few characters who was given so much versatility that no player plays alike, as everyone enjoys different facets of her game. I love to spam. XD

So, breaking down your post...
1) Since MK can punish Peach's aerial game with tornado, stay on the ground.

2) Since MK's ground game ***** Peach's, camp with turnips.


And the unsaid #3...since turnips in themselves are a horrible projectile, disappearing upon impacting a shield, and MK's speed lets him approach with ease...get *****.



Edrees knows what he's doing. Peach's only safe method of attack on MK are her aerials, specifically dair. However, being predicted means a tornado. Peach can't effectively approach MK in any way- best thing she can do is play defensively and jump into floating aerials when he attacks her.

Problem is, if, as Dojo said, the MK plays "gay" and camps back...there's really nothing that can be done by Peach.

Really, the best way for Peach to fight MK is to never approach, camp turnips to bait him into approaching (because you will not do any significant damage on turnips alone), then shield and punish him with footstools to float or just floating aerials, and defend yourself with retreating dairs.


I have to say the one thing I love about Peach is how every single Peach player has such a radically different style ^_^

The problem is that this relies on the player beating smarter than his opponents, which, well, Edrees usually is. But if the MK realizes this, and plays equally defensive and campy and doesn't take the bait...Peach loses.

 

[Praxis]

BTW, Dojo, come to IESmash in January in WA. ^_^

 

[BentoBox]

I counted a total number of zero f-airs by Plank in the second game of their set. Whenever I approach MK form the air, if I don't get tornado'd, I get F-air'd and it works just as well (we have nothing that matches its speed), which has made me wary of floating around him...

But anyways, you disagreed only to come down to the same realization xD. Camp camp. Our float enables us to perform aerials at ground level, something that hence enables us to have that much more control over our spacing as we do not have to commit fully to anything. Peach's Bair is disjointed and apparently can clank with Marth's fair (brought to light by edrees, I had no idea), so it might become one of Peach's best options if it is proven to work against MK's sword to a certain extent...?

And yeah, I'm just throwing ideas out there. That's what this thread is for anyways right ? Edrees does know what he's doing, but MK also does have an answer to everything we have. There is no harm in trying to approach the matchup from a different angle, imo.

Also, even though turnips aren't that great of a projectile, I find that I do much better when playing against MK on FD because I am given more room to spam them and develop a defensive flow. I am also quite notorious for getting lucky pulls lawl.

 

[DRaGZ]

Right now, It seems like Snake, Yoshi, Olimar, ZSS, Diddy, Kirby, and Lucario have the best chance against MetaKnight who hasn't been completely debunked yet (G&W, DK, Bowser). It seems like I am missing one or two people though....

Snake, no. He's only on par with Meta Knight while on the ground. If he's in the air, he's *****. Off-stage, he's *****. And MK outdistances him at nearly everything.

Yoshi, no. MK can simply ban a walk-off stage and then your chain grabs will not be guaranteed kills. Plus, even if you did have the walk-off, Meta Knight can easily outrange the whole time by staying safely in the air.

Olimar, no. MK will **** him and his little Pikmin. That whistle won't save him forever.

ZSS, no. ZSS's best long-spacers are way too slow for Meta Knight and her other spacers MK will just break right through. And ZSS's usual prowess off-stage will be severely messed up by MK.

Diddy, no. His entire game relies on an opponent getting ***** on the floor. MK can just go in the air and do his business there, where he will outclass Diddy in every way. (this is certainly what R.O.B. does).

Kirby, no, The best thing I can see that Kirby has on MK here is the strength of his b-air, but MK can easily circumvent that. (I honestly don't see where you're going with here, unless there is some chaingrab or something I don't know of).

Lucario, I don't think so. His ground spacing is easily outdone by MK, and in the air MK can simply d-air Lucario from above to avoid d-air hijinks from Lucario. If you think Lucario is a good character for this because Azen can do it, you're sorely mistaken.

Falco, no. His aerials are pretty boss and his lasers can potentially pin down a Meta Knight stupid enough to not shield. However, it's still not enough to overcome him significantly enough: MK just needs to get Falco off-stage (which is relatively easy) and then Falco is dead.

 

[-Mars-]

So are all of the top MK players on a mad crusade to keep MK from being banned? Good read though, I think a lot of the character boards do try to come up with ways to combat MK but are quickly discouraged. It also doesn't help that the general consensus is that MK will be banned. Why come up with ways to counter him when you won't see him in a year anyway?

 

[BentoBox]

*sigh^* Basically you haven't tried and hope that you will never have to.

DRaGz, none of your arguments are really convincing, as you have none. =/ The point of this thread, from what I could understand, is to brainstorm ideas to find holes in MK's game. Stating why said characters are losing right now isn't really helping.

So what if Snake gets ***** in the air and offstage (if he's low)? His ridiculously good ground game does allow him to create walls that can be hard to penetrate, even for MK. And falling for a trap gets him punished, hard.

Things aren't as linear as you make em out to be. You can't take the elements of brawl and assume one will inevitably win because he excels in more aspects. It's depressing how negative ppl are these days D:

 

[-Mars-]

Does anyone have a vid to show a really good Snake beating a top MK?

 

[Mmac]

Stuff

You know, you can't really shut down anything with just one or two sentence thesis. Plus you really think that Yoshi only has is Walkoffs? Don't you think there's going to be alot more to this matchup?

Plus if you think his best strategy is to stay in the air, then he'll just get wrecked by Usmashes, Uairs, Anti-Air Eggs and Ground DownB Interceptions.

FYI, He can kill out of a Release Grab. Usmash is the obvious one, but he can also just Run up and Nair him for the kill if he's near the ledge and is around 80% or so. Also the infamous Fair to Spike if he's in the correct position.

 

[DRaGZ]

You know, you can't really shut down anything with just one or two sentence thesis. Plus you really think that Yoshi only has is Walkoffs? Don't you think there's going to be alot more to this matchup?

Plus if you think his best strategy is to stay in the air, then he'll just get wrecked by Usmashes, Uairs, Anti-Air Eggs and Ground DownB Interceptions.

FYI, He can kill out of a Release Grab. Usmash is the obvious one, but he can also just Run up and Nair him for the kill if he's near the ledge and is around 80% or so. Also the infamous Fair to Spike if he's in the correct position.

Edit: Wrong thread.

Real answer: I was simply summarizing the main points of things we have already discussed. Why go in-depth again when we've already done so and nothing has really changed?

 

[BentoBox]

Unless it's all been discussed in the BR, I don't see how you've become an authority for each respective character all of a sudden. If Snakee believes ZSS has the tools to fight MK on even grounds, then I'll take his word for it. Not that ZSS will overall really get messed up wasn't a convincing argument and all....

 

[DRaGZ]

Unless it's all been discussed in the BR, I don't see how you've become an authority for each respective character all of a sudden. If Snakee believes ZSS has the tools to fight MK on even grounds, then I'll take his word for it. Not that ZSS will overall really get messed up wasn't a convincing argument and all....

First of Snakeee is really biased towards his character because ZSS is underrated.

And who said I'm an authority? These were all stuff that was brought in the already existing MK discussion topic and were debated.

 

[BentoBox]

And you are biased too, your point? Results > theorycrafting. I think he's already proved himself to some extent and that's something you cannot deny regardless of whether he's biased or not.

And you also have to realise that most people who were debating these these matchups were ill-informed to some extent as they had no first hand experience. Just like anyone who's been around these boards for the past week can go in any thread and state that MK has no bad matchups, no bad stages, etc, full of assurance. Because they've actually analyzed it themselves? Certainly not.

The point of this thread is to get people who actually -know- their characters to discuss the issue thoroughly. salaboB's opinion on the Snake/MK is irrelevant; he can only point to actual results to back up his claims.

 

[DRaGZ]

And you are biased too, your point? Results > theorycrafting. I think he's already proved himself to some extent and that's something you cannot deny regardless of whether he's biased or not.

And you also have to realise that most people who were debating these these matchups were ill-informed to some extent as they had no first hand experience. Just like anyone who's been around these boards for the past week can go in any thread and state that MK has no bad matchups, no bad stages, etc, full of assurance. Because they've actually analyzed it themselves? Certainly not.

The point of this thread is to get people who actually -know- their characters to discuss the issue thoroughly. salaboB's opinion on the Snake/MK is irrelevant; he can only point to actual results to back up his claims.

If results > theorycrafting, then why are we here theorycrafting? What's to stop "ill-informed people" from coming in here again? Why is this entire thread relevant at all? Go play and beat MKs.

 

[BentoBox]

Because to overcome a character's inherent weaknesses, thinking and theorycrafting is needed. Which then, hopefully, lead to positive results. One does not come without the other.

 

[DRaGZ]

Because to overcome a character's inherent weaknesses, thinking and theorycrafting is needed. Which then, hopefully, lead to positive results. One does not come without the other.

Wouldn't said theorycrafting be better if done with specific instances out of actual matches against MK?

It's not like every character boards hasn't thought of all of the reasonable ways of dealing with MK. If something's gonna happen, it has to be something that happens accidentally/unexpectedly during a match or figured out through experience in the match-up through actual play, not something done in an armchair.

 

[BentoBox]

I don't have a MK player to face everytime that I'd wish. And most boards (Peach's I know for sure at least) analyze every matchup one by one, but conversations aren't always thorough*. MK players do not skim every other char's matchup thread to give their input. Vyse made a thread just yesterday to re-analyze the mk/diddy matchup thoroughly, as a result.

I honestly don't understand what in this thread is making you so irritated.


*These were our conclusions:

Discussion: Posts 54 - 96

What to Watch out For:
-Whorenado, Downsmash KO, UP B Ko, Down air gimps, insane priority
-You cannot edgeguard him

Matchup Mentality:
-Be defensive, he's hard to approach
-Utilize all your ground options, the air is dangerous.
-Use that float to your advantage but don't get too close/be predictable with it
-Trade hits if its possible

Did you know?
-Meta is one of the lightest in the game, so try to get an up air or upsmash in.
-Against tornado: Up tilt hits tornado if above, turnips (sometimes), forward smash (sometimes)

Obvious is obvious.

 

[DRaGZ]

I don't have a MK player to face everytime that I'd wish. And most boards (Peach's I know for sure at least) analyze every matchup one by one, but conversations aren't always thorough. MK players do not skim every other char's matchup thread to give their input. Vyse made a thread just yesterday to re-analyze the mk/diddy matchup thoroughly, as a result.

I honestly don't understand what in this thread is making you so irritated.

It's not the thread. I was just using your arguments which were meant to support the thread and then turn them around on you by showing you ways they don't support the thread.

And this stemmed from you not liking the fact that I summarized what everyone has currently said about the matter, specifically in regard to the characters mmac posted because he said "this is what people are currently discussing that might counter MK".

 

[DMG]

Olimar. Look into him if you want a possible chance at a MK counter.

 

[BentoBox]

And this stemmed from you not liking the fact that I summarized what everyone has currently said about the matter, specifically in regard to the characters mmac posted because he said "this is what people are currently discussing that might counter MK".

You resumed the negative, yes. Not everyone had agreed that all of these characters had no chances, but that's how you displayed it in your first post, hence making you look biased.

Lucario - Azen does it, we must be overlooking something. (other than that he's too good ._.")
Diddy - There is no current consensus, Vyse is discussing it as we speak on the Diddy Boards.
Zss - Snakeee, etc.
Snake - Some claim that snake does remarkably well compared to the rest of the cast because of his defensive game.
Olimar - Atomsk, DanGR, etc.

ETC.

These matchups ARE worth looking into.

 

[DRaGZ]

But Azen IS really good. It's Azen. Has any other Lucario done something to a similar extent? Not even necessarily win a tournament, but played to a point where he could beat MK consistently because he is Lucario?

Snake I think is blown way out of proportion. Snake can make a defensive wall only if the MK gives him enough time to, which he really shouldn't. Plus, a lot of stupid MK stuff occurs when they tornado into a grenade, which should never really be happening (i.e., don't tornado Snake, you really don't need to).

Olimar is being disputed, although from the general vibe I am getting they say he only really goes even. And DanGR actually think Olimar loses against MK if they are both knowledgeable about the match-up.

I agree with your point on Diddy and ZSS, although much less on ZSS and only because I concede I don't as much about ZSS as I would like to make an argument here.

Btw, if the boards themselves are discussing such options, why not just let them do their own work? Surely they'll do a far better job than a thread in the Tactical Discussion forums.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I hope this thread won't be closed, since it's much better than the other two.

I'm curious about Olimar and the other characters and I might pick them up and look at what they can do. On this occasion, I'd like to mention that Sheik can do a grab release -> slidilg usmash on MK (according to MK atomsk does it all the time). So you may look at her too.

...

Right now, I'm analysing Bowsers capabilities. I was really upset when people said he sucks, because he's a really good character. The more I use him, the more certain I am, that he belongs to High tier.
I've been using him more often against Meta Knight and the results are pleasing. I think he's surprisingly good against MK, although I need to test a lot more (I also think he's good against Snake but he obviously sucks vs Dedede).
Bowser has some useful tools against MK and if you ever use them properly, you'll find out why Bowser is so underrated. He is just really good. His ftilt beats every move of MK except the ftilt. It's use against the tornado is somewhat questionable. Sometimes they cancel each other out, sometimes Nado wins, sometimes Bowser ftilt wins. It has something to do with the range of both attacks. I have to figure out how it works. The tornado is a very strange move, especially when you look at ist priority.
Bowsers dtilt beats a lot of MKs moves too and is a good KO move, although I find myself using it too often to be a reliable KO moves.
Bowser has one of the most effective - if not the most effective - punishing options in the game. As soon as the opponent is open for a frew frames, the whole defense is a whole gamble situation, because you'll never know, whether Bowser will use the Koopa Claw, which you can't shield but spotdodge or whether he'll use the fortress, which you can't spotdodge but have to shield. Either way, once Bowser lands one of these hits it's a free 20% damage no matter which attacks he uses.
Fortress is absurdly useful in this battle, thanks to it's 6 invincibility frames. You can attack during MKs last frames of any attack you want to - Fortress will always win and deal good damage. And what's also important: It hives you a save recovery. Just play it smart. All you need is to time it right and MK won't be able to gimp you. It works even on Lylat Cruise and Rainbow Cruise, so MK won't even be able to counterpick Bowser. And a grab release at the edge gives Bowser a free fair, which is no less than a guaranteed KO in ~90% of the cases, even with good DI (I don't know yet, what's the minimum required % with perfect DI).

The other move I find very useful was the Flame Breath, even though it's very situational. The thing is, that either the Fire Breath or the Fortress will beat the Tornado if you use it fast enough. If MK is too close, it won't work but you can completely Shield it and use UpB very quickly to punish him.
I already figured out which of Bowsers moves beat MKs foretress.

Nado (approach) -> ftilt, Fire Breath
Nado (close range) -> shield to Fortress

The best thing is that if Bowser powershields MKs attacks, it's in most cases either a free Klaw or a free ftilt / dtilt. He can Shield dmsash (the only reliable finisher MK has against Bowser) and gets a guaranteed 20% from the Koopa Klaw. And 20% is about 1/4th of the dmg MK can take against Bowser. Every other move that follows might already be too much for MK, especially one of Bowsers smash attacks.
And of course I will also cover the grab release CG, that makes FD a potential counterpick. If you grab MK on the one side of FD @80% it's a guaranteed KO, since you can fair him off the screen after releasing him at the edge. In other words: All that Bowser needs to KO MK on FD is to land two Koopa Klaws, one Fortress and one Fire Breath to bring him to 80% and then he has to grab him (I'm working on grab options and setups atm to see how I can find effective options to grab MK).

Something, that's very important to me: You can always force MK to play on Final Destination with a lot of characters. Why is this?
Because on Castle Siege you can kill him without even dealing dmg to him. The 2nd stage is the key obviously, as you can just jump release him off the screen and there's nothing MK can do. Bowser just has to regrab him release him and regrab him again until he's KO.
That means, that the MK either has to ban FD, which means 0 death on Castle Siege or KO @80% on Final Destination.

Bowser has the advantage over MK on either stage. I haven't looked into other stages yet but I'll start working together with other Bowser players: Vex Kasrani, Flayl, MrEh and BurtonEarny.