At risk of falling too deeply back into the trenches of this topic again...
also I dunno about the whole objectification thing
it's totally got the veins of sexism running through it, yeah, and the way it came up in this thread seemed a little callous, but you gotta bear in mind that the only reason they were assigned numbers, as impersonal and "women ARE MEAT" as that seems at first blush, is because nobody knows their names
I never brought up the numbers issue in those terms though. My argument wasn't "how dare you call her number 4?! She has a
name, you know!" It was "Why are you suddenly listing these girls you don't know in order of bone-ability? Does your brain really
immediately jump down to your **** whenever you see females?"
I mean the whole reason Raz shared that photo was "look at me and all these sexy ladies", and I mean I dunno **** about **** when it comes to tournaments but I'm pretty sure the girls in the photo were having a laugh doing their "lets be sexy ladies in a photo with this one guy that'll be fun" thing. Seriously, when do five women form a pack around one guy as the centerpiece and take a photo without some of that in there? They're conveying a pretty clear message there but it's also clearly meant to be all in good fun
Sure, sure. Point taken. But even so, is it not odd to you how quickly conversation turned from "haha Raz took a sexy ladies pick" to "now which one would you gentlemen share a bed with first?" And don't you think it's unfortunate that the simple act of multiple girls being in a picture around one guy is automatically construed to be somewhat sexual, even in a joking way, free of any other context?
and it strikes me as naive to think that women don't do similar things. Like, yeah, they don't break a guy down into a 1-10 scale (to my knowledge, anyway) but they definitely play the comparison game. If a girl took a photo at some thing that women do with a bunch of shirtless dudes surrounding her flexing, everybody doing it for a laugh, would the gal pals she shows it to really not start ranking them? Nah. Nah. I mean I don't pretend to have a massive sample size here or anything but I've definitely seen plenty of such examples
Again, not a point I was making. In fact, I admitted that girls are just as capable of being judgmental and shallow as guys. But there's usually at least context. Your example of a woman posing for a photo with a bunch of shirtless, flexing men is a good one actually. Even meant as a goof, it is clear there that those men have muscles to be admired, and therefor the ladies looking at the photo admire them (and maybe pick out favorites). The same can't really be said about Raz's picture. The girls in the picture aren't really doing anything provocative or sexy. They're not wearing bikinis or bending over or making pouty faces. They're just there. Their
existence is the only context. Sure, a girl can take a picture like this with a bunch of dudes, but it needs stipulations like all the men being shirtless to tell the viewer that the message is "look at these hunks." With girls, that isn't necessary. Apparently any picture with one guy and multiple girls in it automatically becomes a "look at my swag harem" picture because of the way we are conditioned to view women in this society. That, on its own, is revealing to me.
To reiterate a previous point, I do find both guy and girl versions of this kind of judgment silly and unfortunate. Mostly because I'm a little bit too PC for my own good sometimes, I guess. But when it's men judging women, it's especially unsettling to me just because it always inherently seems like it's coming from a place of entitlement. Like, "that woman exists; it is totally my right to evaluate her." And maybe that's unfair of me, too.
With that said, the bit about insults hurled at female politicians and celebrities and stuff vs the blind eye turned to similar things is 100% on point and a total blatant case of endemic sexism. But I also think that's different... societal constructs and ideals aren't directly applicable to the thinking of your average joe... I mean, idealizations like these are created for particular reasons in the first place, right? I really don't know why the media constructs are so cruel to women and nonplussed by men, but there you have it. Probably a holdover from the explicitly patriarchal era, I dunno. Either way it's a shame.
Correct me if I'm missing the point of what you're actually saying here entirely, but it seems like the bolded is saying that the media's approach to the discussion of public figures and the average person's approach are separate things? In the strictest sense, yes, I suppose, but the way the media treats people absolutely informs the way the average person does, and the way the media decides on how to react to these things is based on what it thinks we want to see and hear. It's a vicious cycle. We feel like we're entitled to be angry at Christina Aguilera for putting on a few pounds because the media makes a big stink about it. The media is encouraged to do that because audiences feel comfortable seeing and hearing it. They're different domains, technically, but one perception definitely informs the other. So to pretend that one domain doesn't have a place being used in a discussion about the other seems silly.
though I just wanna be clear that when you mention the insults hurled at Sarah Palin, you're talking about those related to her appearance, bikini photographs etc, and not her literally empirically proven incompetence and stupidity. Because, oh man. That was certainly some kind of real thing. A thing Aych Dubs also had going in spades and was continuously rousted for, I might add
I mean I'm sure you were talking about the comments focusing on her appearance but ya never know I guess
I picked Sarah Palin and Nancy Pelosi for that example specifically because they're each one of the most influential/highest ranking/well-known female figures of their respective parties in the USA, and I've personally heard ridiculously cruel insults hurled at both of them in regards to their appearance. I consider most insults hurled at Palin's intelligence justified and totally valid to discussion regarding her, since the ability to think critically and be informed on issues should be a pretty important prerequisite for national office. But frankly, since her ignorance
is such low-hanging fruit, I find it all the more unsettling when I hear people attacking her on her looks instead. Or really just sexualizing her as a way of invalidating her in general, as if her ability to govern is related to how many pairs of men's dress pants she can tent with a wink. And really, that's the bigger point—not that people call her ugly and that's mean or unfair, but that they frame her as a sexual being
in general as a way of damaging her credibility. "She's a woman, and we can insinuate that women are prostitutes. Voters don't like prostitutes." It's the kind of thing that just isn't ever an issue for any male politicians (except for ones who
actually get caught with their pants down in front of female secretaries).