Let's murder that move! (How to deal with specific moves) Pacman's down+B

[Z1GMA]

Let's murder that move!
(How to deal with specific moves)

Murdered moves
NAir
This move can be AC close to the ground, and landing with it only gives 12 frames of Landing Lag.
It also has disjointed hitboxes with nasty range.
Even if you powershield it, your options are very limited.

If you're close enough, you can shieldgrab it, but if it's properly spaced, it's hard to punish it.
PS > Jab works ocassionally, but it's not something that'll work every time - it kinda depends on his spacing and if it's ACd.

You can hit ROB before the Nair comes out, since its start-up is kinda laggy, but a smart ROB knows about this and will try to space while in start-up.
If he Nairs high, try to run in and get as close as possible for a shieldgrab, or even get behind ROB since his Nair ends in his front.

PS > Uair/Nair OoS, can work if you manage to PS it early.

Thanks to: A2zomg, Pyr, Sykkamorre, Saintjotun, Jahkzheng

FTilt
When it hits your shield:
If she's close enough, you can Shield Grab her, if she's perfectly spaced, your options are very limited - you can PS > Jab, but it's very risky. Rolling away is sadly one of our better options.

If it would wiff:
Ftilt/Dtilt

If you get hit by it:
While you can sometimes DJ out of it, it's very risky since she can easily gimp you afterwards.
At near 0%, it's possible to get you shield up before being hit by an additional Ftilt.
Airwiz can also work if you're just high enough and has DI'd properly.
Many times you'll just have to except that you'll be hit by 2 or 3 more Ftilts before she'll move over to Fairs.

Thanks to: the king of murder, Sykkamorre, JmacAttack, Silvalfo, Opana

FAir
Well spaced, and timed, SH aerials are recomended, however, a good Pikachu does everything to not allow you to space properly, so keep that in mind and don't space "too blindly".
Mixing it up with a retreating Uair and/or Pivot Ftilt can also prove effective at times.
A well-timed iDA can also swat Pikachu out of the air.

Thanks to: A2zomg, Opana, Izanagi97, Sykkamorre, Xinc, Dakotabonez

Currently being murdered
Down+B
Moves about to get murdered
Up+B​

 

[Z1GMA]

Reserved if needed.

 

[Z1GMA]

Starting off with NAir

This move can be AC close to the ground, and landing with it only gives 12 frames of Landing Lag.
It also has disjointed hitboxes with nasty range.
Even if you powershield it, your options are very limited.

OT: Feel free to suggest moves for later murdering.

 

[Pyr]

It's startup seems kind of telegraphed a bit. Maybe a PS to Uair/Choke/Grab/Bair? Bair seems the best to me because it has a decent amount of range and is fast enough to punish/has enough shield stun to trap ROB and can be AC itself.

 

[Z1GMA]

Maybe a PS to Uair/Choke/Grab/Bair?

The only attack fast enough to punish it after PSing is grab, provided you're close enough.

 

[SaintJotun]

The only attack fast enough to punish it after PSing is grab, provided you're close enough.

Agreed. I'm usually not close enough, and unfortunately have to back up to reconsider options. If anyone has a good method against ROBs NAIR that would be fantastic. Sometimes I will panic, roll, and WF after ROB lands, but that tends to leave me open.

 

[Sykkamorre]

For future consideration: Pikachu's fair/Bair.

As for Roberto's Nair... the only thing I can usually do is start a wizkick when I see the move's startup animation. But unless the rob is already at a decent percent, the knockback isn't sufficient for it to be safe for us.

I may be wrong, but our dtilt might just be able to poke him if we avoided the move itself... but don't quote me on it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ROB's N-air is one of those moves that's slow enough that you either interrupt it, or your powershield -> Jab it. And even if he has enough space to N-air you during juggles, you don't really care about trading with him, because your damage is better.

Personally, I would worry more about focusing on spacing F-air, B-air, and N-air safely, rather than worry about specific moves that beat ROB's N-air. Air to air, Ganondorf is overall stronger than ROB. From there, you mostly just have to make sure you don't leave yourself open on the ground after going for aerials

 

[Z1GMA]

Trading hits with it is really hard. Most of the times, its disjoints overprio you.
And PS > Jab is too slow. I''ve tested it with a friend.

Messed around with WDK, and it seems to just eat its way through the Nair, every time.
WK don't, however.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Powershield -> Jab I would think is still good, it just depends on how he spaces it. If he does it with AC timing then just go back to spacing with your normal stuff imo. Probably if you want to get really clever, powershield -> dashgrab is a good way to get in on AC N-air for maximum reward assuming he blocks after hearing you powershield.

 

[jahkzheng]

I'd imagine Powershield -> Dtilt would be relatively safe. Dtilt's range is nice enough that if he spaces you to be safe from jab, you could still get him with dtilt I'd think. Really is Ganon's best poking tool against disjointed hitboxes and lots of approaches in front of you. Dtilt at least out reaches any move he'd use out of his landing that I can think of, and moves that would out reach it or an approach after landing option wouldn't be faster.... I think.

Thing is, I'm not sure there's a reason for ROB to space you this way if he really can AC nair into a jab of his own or a grab on your shield. Not sure what the window is for you to punish between nair and whatever comes next. Not tested any of this stuff btw, so it's just a speculative gut feeling on this end. I know dtilt is good for a lot of things like this though. If dtilt neutralizes a conservative nair approach by ROB, perhaps a shield grab is what would punish an aggressive one assuming the shield push isn't too significant. Not sure.


Edit: Btw, I'd like to discuss Dedede's Gordo... mainly as an edgeguard. Also, Pac-Man's neutral B. I've had some punishing experiences against these things. Pac-Man's neutral B is probably the most annoying projectile I've dealt with, but that's likely due to who I was playing and how they used it moreso than the actual character. Regardless, just having platforms probably would've made it way more bearable but, you know, For Glory is all Omega.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'd imagine Powershield -> Dtilt would be relatively safe

Most of the times, Dtilt is still too slow.

If we're close enough, Shield Grabbing it works really good, but if it's properly spaced, I'm afraid we'll have to act based on what he does after the Nair.

Usmash beats it, but the timing is strict.

 

[jahkzheng]

Most of the times, Dtilt is still too slow.

If we're close enough, Shield Grabbing it works really good, but if it's properly spaced, I'm afraid we'll have to act based on what he does after the Nair.

Usmash beats it, but the timing is strict.

I guess properly spaced is close enough to punish upon landing before dtilt could come out but far enough to avoid a shield grab from Ganon. I was hoping dtilt would be a good option if they landed just far enough away that they couldn't follow up with anything that quick after landing.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Our choke'll hit him in the early stages of his Nair, interrupting the attack.

 

[fromundaman]

Out of curiosity, when you guys are checking punish options, are you taking OoS instant air choke into account?

 

[Z1GMA]

Out of curiosity, when you guys are checking punish options, are you taking OoS instant air choke into account?

Yes we are. But I honestly think it's too slow.

If ROB uses Nair from high above you and FF it, a good option is to try and get behind him since his Nair doesn't cover his back in the end of the animation.

 

[Z1GMA]

Summarized.

Next up is Sheik's Ftilt.

 

[the king of murder]

I think if you DI up you can escape her F-tilt spam but than you risk getting fair'd. I would say just stay out of her Ftilt range all the time because we are the most dangerous against her in our D-tilt range.

 

[Sykkamorre]

I'm torn here. You have the option of using your DJ to get out of it... but you will most likely get abused and pushed offstage because most good players expect that.

I almost feel like our best option is just to eat the ftilts and punish the follow up. Our Nair stuffs her forward air during the chase since most sheiks get greedy.

 

[JmacAttack]

Buffer a Wizard's Foot. When it's capable of coming out, it lets you linger in the air long enough to avoid another ftilt and punish in the same motion. Works at around 20%.

 

[Silvalfo]

At very early percents you can hold down and shield after taking the first ftilt, so you don't get out of the ground on the second ftilt, then shield the third and shieldgrab if in range or roll away if not (risks getting dashgrabbed). Or jab if the Sheik tries to grab.

Yeah, Ganon needs very obscure reads in order to do anything against this move.

 

[Opana]

I either save my jump and di up and jump if they do too many ftilts or wait until I see an opening between the almost guaranteed fairs. I never use my jump if I don't feel I can escape, so at times I eat their whole combo and save my jump so I don't get early killed.

 

[Z1GMA]

When it hits your shield:
If she's close enough, you can Shield Grab her, if she's perfectly spaced, your options are very limited - you can PS > Jab, but it's very risky. Rolling away is sadly one of our better options.

If it would wiff:
Ftilt/Dtilt

If you get hit by it:
While you can sometimes DJ out of it, it's very risky since she can easily gimp you afterwards.
At near 0%, it's possible to get you shield up before being hit by an additional Ftilt.
Airwiz can also work if you're just high enough and has DI'd properly.
Many times you'll just have to except that you'll be hit by 2 or 3 more Ftilts before she'll move over to Fairs.

 

[Z1GMA]

Next move: FAir

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pivot F-tilt is your safest answer to that move but won't always work when he covers himself behind projectiles. Technically you would want to N-air it, but Pikachu is really short, meaning if he crouches, your N-air might whiff except at really close range.

Tbh I have less problems with Pikachu's attacks as opposed to his extreme small size combined with his mobility and projectile.

 

[Opana]

I shield it until the last hit hits then try and shieldgrab or non-crouching dtilt. Usually dtilt though, Imean it may not he a guaranteed punish but I value ut regardless due to the range it covers along the ground. The oima I regularly fight doesn't miss often so if I'm caught in that then a proceeding combo I try and di away and nair, always saving my jump in the event they carry me offstage.

 

[Sykkamorre]

To be perfectly honest, the best option I know against Pikachu's incredibly irritating small size and Fair's are retreating reverse Uairs. I'm moderately sure that we lose the hurtbox on our legs during it, which makes it probably the safest thing we can do.

But my hatred and inability to deal with pika is something which I don't even try to hide, so there may be significantly better options.

 

[Izanagi97]

I guess use Uair or Side B (former has good range while the latter is a command grab)

 

[Z1GMA]

Hi, guys. My computer has crashed so I won't be able to be as active for some time. Summarizing and stuff is hell on my phone. I'll get right back to this thread when I get my hands on a new computer.

 

[Xinc]

SH Up air seems to be a reliable counter to Pika's fair.

 

[DakotaBonez]

I have years of experience taking on my friend who is a Pika main. When used with good positioning, Pika's aerial attacks seem invincible or impossible to counter without taking some damage in the trade-off. I don't really understand how we can kill any of these moves when they are used optimally, unless we are able to predict it coming and be in the perfect spot to counter, in which case all of our problem could be solved with a Warlock Punch and super armor. However when in doubt with Ganon, you can't go wrong with his Up-Air. It comes out quick and covers almost all sides.

 

[Z1GMA]

Back on track - updated.

Next move: down+B

 

[adom4]

Back on track - updated.

Next move: down+B

This one is fun, almost every move Ganondorf has knocks the hydrant away, knowing which moves knocks the hydrant & at what angle helps alot in this matchup.
The hydrant has 13 HP & obviously since Ganondorf is a nuke almost every move launches it in 1 hit.
Here are some examples of what Ganondorf's moves do to the hydrant:
D-tilt: 1 hit if fresh, knocks it Upward with slight side movement
F-tilt: 1 hit, launches it sideways
Jab: launches it sideways
Dair: Launches it straight up.

Also always watch out for what Pacman does to the hydrant, he has a lot of tools to launch it & abuse it with bonus fruit, for example he can throw the bell in front of the hydrant as soon as it shoots water, pushing the bell with it.
Overall i think Ganondorf deals with the hydrant pretty decently, mostly because he can 1 shot it with almost every move.
EDIT: also forgot to add, most pacmen(?) use hydrant to escape Juggles, when you're under pacman always expect a hydrant to come, IIRC Ganondorf's U-air clashes with the hydrant.

 

[Z1GMA]

If he drops it down from above you, an Usmash can sometimes send it straight back in his face.

 

[Opana]

A week or two ago, I was able to ledgehop Aerudo using Link's Gale Boomerang and catch him at the center of the stage. This leads me to believe that SH Aerudo should work the same using Hydrant water, possibly allowing a Ganoncide or if anything just landing the move on the stage. Using a grounded choke, we actually slide along with him before he drops and IIRC we won't slide off the stage. This drops him right onto the ledge in a very disadvantageous position, where I've personally landed FH Dair.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Relevant:

I was actually on a stream not long ago vs a Pac-Man friend I added a long time ago. http://www.twitch.tv/piiff/b/665105751

Times are 3:03:33 and 3:11:00. Customs are on and I'm using 2121 (I think he's using default).

@ adom4 covered most of what I would have said anyhow. Note that even if Pacman launches the Hydrant at you with his attacks, you can clash harmlessly with it with most of your aerials including Aerial Wizkick, which can sometimes throw of Pac-Man if he's trying to zone aggressively.

 

[adom4]

Ok this thread needs a revival, so i'm gonna start a discussion on a move that i consider pretty annoying for us:

So, how do we murder Focus attack?
Z1GMA if i'm not mistaken you also play Ryu right? Care to give your input on Focus attack & how to murder it?

 

[verbatim]

From my personal experience fighting Ryu's,

If they use Focus Attack in the air most if not all of your aerials are so disjointed that you can fade out after hitting and not get hit by the counter attack. If he's above you just throw out uairs, if he doesn't cancel you'll get free damage and can fade out to the left or right to disengage, if he cancels you'll just hit him anyways. If it's on the ground I think our best bet is to just Flame Choke him and start a tech chase/reset to neutral.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Nair is a safe move against FA since it's our only multi hit move with any speed.

But I guess it's only going to work in the air.

 

[Opana]

Depends on when theh use it, like if it's after my dthrow I wait a sec and flame choke them. If they like to land with fadc, I aim where I think they'll land. Almost got a warlock punch punish this way lol.