(LEGALITY) Custom Special Moves: Maybe. Modifiable Attributes: No.

[Nstinct]

I'm 100% certain it won't be 3DS only. "Character customization, something people have been dreaming about for years...will only be available on our portable version of the game...good day." That would sound just plain dumb.

Unlocking everything shouldn't be hard either, do you honestly believe we don't have basement dwellers on smashboards who won't unlock everything in an inhuman amount of time? Once someone uploads something complete we'll have all we need before 30 days. Thank God for those basement dwellers.

 

[Hong]

Nope fighting games are a series of choices; weighing gain vs loss. Knowing what your opponent can/will do is a huge portion of that and if people can only guess they it takes away from what smash is. A resounding nope from my end.

I don't see how this changes with custom special moves.

If you are at all serious about the game, you still know what everyone is capable of. You see full well what special moves your opponent will have before the match begins. Nothing changes.

 

[infomon]

Nope fighting games are a series of choices; weighing gain vs loss. Knowing what your opponent can/will do is a huge portion of that and if people can only guess they it takes away from what smash is. A resounding nope from my end.

I think all of us that are hopeful of custom-specials also advocate that players know the opponent's customizations before the match begins. There's no "surprise! I equipped Giant Unstoppable Fireball!" mid-match.

 

[Banjodorf]

You know, I'm suddenly reminded of Super Street Fighter 4 and the ability to switch between Ultras before a match. This will be a bit more complicated than that, but the same principle overall. The only things that should be allowed to be changed are specials. (As in no stat changes, just like the title says.) That worked fine, and I really don't think it makes sense to expect the Smash interface to be too complicated, when Sakurai has never really done "complicated" with his menu/interface designs.

 

[Ginger Hail]

As long as there's a way to quickly set custom movesets from the character select, I don't see why they shouldn't be legal. As others have mentioned, other fighters do offer options such as switching supers/assists/etc depending on the situation, so I don't see why swapping out a move or two to combat a weakness your character has in a particular matchup is worth banning.

 

[Nstinct]

Unfortunately I'm having a hard time visualizing how you would select custom moves with 4 other people at the same time, unless you cycle through them one by one over your character card/slot.

 

[Anuran]

I think all of us that are hopeful of custom-specials also advocate that players know the opponent's customization before the match begins. There's no "surprise! I equipped Giant Unstoppable Fireball!" mid-match.

That will be slightly better but that being said I get a bad feeling from this. Nintendo is already so awful at balancing. Imagine them trying to balance every single combination of available specials for every character. Sure it will expand the possibilities for the meta but it will also add more combinations that could cover literally every option. All i'm saying is that a fighter should have strengths and weaknesses and when those are customization it takes away from the game for me.

I think another part of my reluctance so give this a shot is how I see smash brothers as a whole. There are a set number of fighters with set movesets. Everyone has the same combination of tools and people find creative ways of using those tools they were given. This is why you can see so many differences in say Denti and Fatality's respective Ivysaurs. I understand this kind of applies when everyone has the same number of specials to use but I don't think it would feel the same. I would be like instead of saying "yes he is playing captain Falcon!" the person would say "I wonder if he is using cray aerial kick falcon or fast punch falcon"

These are just my thoughts on the subject and I understand I may just be stuck in my ways but I just prefer it how it is.

 

[Hong]

I also want to remind everyone that Masahiro Sakurai is obsessive with UI elements. He has gone on and on about the importance of convenient, easy-to-understand and functional menus since forever. He has an entire Famitsu article on it.

Unfortunately I'm having a hard time visualizing how you would select custom moves with 4 other people at the same time, unless you cycle through them one by one over your character card/slot.

I would imagine it would just be four rows over your character portrait, with left and right toggles.

 

[infomon]

I also want to remind everyone that Masahiro Sakurai is obsessive with UI elements. He has gone on and on about the importance of convenient, easy-to-understand and functional menus since forever. He has an entire Famitsu article on it.

Yeah, but also remember how annoying it was to change custom controls in Brawl. I honestly think that game was unfinished. They just rushed it out the door and didn't have time to fix obvious flaws that Sakurai knew about and wanted to fix.

This time there's two games which intensifies the pressure but I think we'll see that refinement come through. Something in the way he's talked about the games has suggested that to me. Crossing my fingers

 

[Banjodorf]

Besides, that "customizations on/off" toggle on the CSS seems like it'll open up a quick and easy way to select. Honestly let's not overreact about how "difficult" it'll be able to do when history tells us Sakurai's menus are more likely to be easy to navigate.

 

[popsofctown]

That will be slightly better but that being said I get a bad feeling from this. Nintendo is already so awful at balancing. Imagine them trying to balance every single combination of available specials for every character. Sure it will expand the possibilities for the meta but it will also add more combinations that could cover literally every option. All i'm saying is that a fighter should have strengths and weaknesses and when those are customization it takes away from the game for me.

I think another part of my reluctance so give this a shot is how I see smash brothers as a whole. There are a set number of fighters with set movesets. Everyone has the same combination of tools and people find creative ways of using those tools they were given. This is why you can see so many differences in say Denti and Fatality's respective Ivysaurs. I understand this kind of applies when everyone has the same number of specials to use but I don't think it would feel the same. I would be like instead of saying "yes he is playing captain Falcon!" the person would say "I wonder if he is using cray aerial kick falcon or fast punch falcon"

These are just my thoughts on the subject and I understand I may just be stuck in my ways but I just prefer it how it is.

The only thing that keeps your example from being a 1:1 analog with Mario vs. Doc Mario is the visual aspect: you can walk up to a tv and see whether someone is playing cray cape Mario or cray Fair Dr. Mario because the costume is different.
Your complaint inspires a suggested solution: a de facto standard of costumes to match with certain special move kits, provided that Nintendo doesn't pick up the slack and do that on their own. I see the value in being able to know the properties of the character being played at a glance, both for the sake of spectators and the sake of opponents trying to internalize the jumps between the different flavors of fighters.

If I understand correctly (I don't follow things as closely as I could), there are 81 special move combinations. We probably can't expect that many costumes for each character, unfortunately. But through some combination of specials being underpowered and extra visual customization options, maybe it could work.

 

[Nstinct]

Strangely the ssbwiki states that Character Customization is an exclusive feature on the 3ds: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Cross-platform_comparison_of_Super_Smash_Bros._4#cite_note-4

But I've yet to see their references stating that character customization is 3ds exclusive. The wiki page states that you can transfer custom characters to the Wii U version, but not the other way around.

But alas, this is why wiki are counted as unreliable: http://www.joystiq.com/2014/06/10/super-smash-bros-lets-you-customize-special-moves/

 

[Anuran]

The only thing that keeps your example from being a 1:1 analog with Mario vs. Doc Mario is the visual aspect: you can walk up to a tv and see whether someone is playing cray cape Mario or cray Fair Dr. Mario because the costume is different.
Your complaint inspires a suggested solution: a de facto standard of costumes to match with certain special move kits, provided that Nintendo doesn't pick up the slack and do that on their own. I see the value in being able to know the properties of the character being played at a glance, both for the sake of spectators and the sake of opponents trying to internalize the jumps between the different flavors of fighters.

If I understand correctly (I don't follow things as closely as I could), there are 81 special move combinations. We probably can't expect that many costumes for each character, unfortunately. But through some combination of specials being underpowered and extra visual customization options, maybe it could work.

I had not thought about that. Interesting point but to continue that argument we would have dr.mario, mario, half dr mario, quarter dr mario and doctor mario which specializes in brain surgery. I dunno man, it just seems kinda ridiculous to me. I love smash enough to play what ever rule set comes about but I really would not like it.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

My apologies to the mods if this is inappropriate for Wii U discussion given that it stems from the 3DS version of the game.

The digital event showed the custom move's UI in the 3DS version for a split second. Judging by the "back arrow" in the corner, it is likely that this shows up as a separate screen. It could appear from the CSS (since we know there is a custom on/off toggle on the CSS), though it could also be further away in the menus like custom controls were in Brawl. Then there's the possibility that the Wii U version has a different UI for custom moves entirely. Ugh, I really need to stop speculating.

What we can confirm from this is that the custom moves UI is simplistic and uses a very similar style to Brawl, KI:U and presumably Smash 4's menu design.

 

[infomon]

I would main brain surgeon dr. mario. that actually sounds awesome :D

 

[κomıc]

I think Custom Movesets may even be tied to Amiibos? I'd be carrying my Palutena figurine to run with a set. That's if the Amiibo keeps such data.

 

[Nstinct]

Found the video that shows a special someone obtained from playing Smash Run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST2DQMwqpWk#t=19m

Unlocking the custom moves is definitely confirmed.

 

[Starbound]

I think Custom Movesets may even be tied to Amiibos? I'd be carrying my Palutena figurine to run with a set. That's if the Amiibo keeps such data.

If they did this it'd be pretty cool.

Just connect your Amiibo to your gamepad and skip all the screens.

 

[Hong]

Found the video that shows a special someone obtained from playing Smash Run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST2DQMwqpWk#t=10m10s

Unlocking the custom moves is definitely confirmed.

Keen eye, but we've already established how they are unlocked on the 3DS version. Since the Wii U does not have Smash Run, it's still open for discussion.

 

[smashbro29]

Some very random points regarding this:

• If you'll ban the custom moves at the beginning, there will be a bunch of players who will insist that they should stay banned because they're used to it. As of savefiles as a reason, maybe we should ban unlockable characters? No?
• If we're mentioning savefiles: I'm not even sure you can move one between devices anymore. In fact, Nintendo retroactively removed this feature from DSis.
• If moves are selected off the CSS, it implies problems with ditto matches.

I don't think anyone disagrees regarding stat boosters though.

Rules for Melee and Brawl changed as time went on and you know it, Unlockable characters are easy to get, you need to get customization moves at random by playing single player, it will take a long long time for even a casual player at home to get every possible move unlocked.

This further pushes customization into the banned territory.

That is an excellent point. Can't do default Mario against Mario with a fast fireball can you?

 

[Chauzu]

Good to see this getting discussed thoroughly! I'm all for this if it is implemented correctly in the game. This is one of the big features of Smash 4 and possibly what could differinate this game from the older installments of the series.

Rules for Melee and Brawl changed as time went on and you know it, Unlockable characters are easy to get, you need to get customization moves at random by playing single player, it will take a long long time for even a casual player at home to get every possible move unlocked.

This further pushes customization into the banned territory.

I think this is looking at it backwards. What stops people from getting into Smash competetively are technical barriers, like L-cancel and wavedashing and such. When it comes to customization of this sort, I would think "casual people" (to group millions of people as one...) are the ones MOST for customization of moves being legal. It will be a huge part of the game and I can imagine many people wanting to play with the set-up of their liking, instead of hearing "sorry, you need to play with the standard character". But that's just my take on it.

 

[smashbro29]

Good to see this getting discussed thoroughly! I'm all for this if it is implemented correctly in the game. This is one of the big features of Smash 4 and possibly what could differinate this game from the older installments of the series.



I think this is looking at it backwards. What stops people from getting into Smash competetively are technical barriers, like L-cancel and wavedashing and such. When it comes to customization of this sort, I would think "casual people" (to group millions of people as one...) are the ones MOST for customization of moves being legal. It will be a huge part of the game and I can imagine many people wanting to play with the set-up of their liking, instead of hearing "sorry, you need to play with the standard character". But that's just my take on it.

You sorely misunderstood why I brought up casual players. My point is even the people grinding in single player for fun (me included) won't get every option for a long time, now imagine a TO who got 10-20 set ups just for the tournaments, not only do they need to unlock the characters and stages (which for the first time needs to be done per system) they also need to grind out single player for possibly a few days.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Rules for Melee and Brawl changed as time went on and you know it, Unlockable characters are easy to get, you need to get customization moves at random by playing single player, it will take a long long time for even a casual player at home to get every possible move unlocked.

This further pushes customization into the banned territory.

As we have made very clear by now, we don't know if this applies to the Wii U version or not.

That is an excellent point. Can't do default Mario against Mario with a fast fireball can you?

Maybe we can...? What evidence is there to say that two players picking the same character have to use the same customs?

 

[smashbro29]

As we have made very clear by now, we don't know if this applies to the Wii U version or not.

Maybe we can...? What evidence is there to say that two players picking the same character have to use the same customs?

Yeah, you're right they're just gonna give you everything on WiiU because.... no good reason. They clearly want players grinding on single player modes a lot more this time around.

Maybe! I know online you can for sure but offline I'm just not seeing it. Could be wrong though.

 

[Chauzu]

You sorely misunderstood why I brought up casual players. My point is even the people grinding in single player for fun (me included) won't get every option for a long time, now imagine a TO who got 10-20 set ups just for the tournaments, not only do they need to unlock the characters and stages (which for the first time needs to be done per system) they also need to grind out single player for possibly a few days.

Misunderstood a bit by the looks of it, apologies. In the end though it is all speculation, need to wait and see how it will work on Wii U.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Mithost]

How often will the time invested into unlocking things need to be done? Will setups be reused from one tournament to another? Also, since we can transfer characters from the 3DS to the Wii U, won't there only need to be one 3DS with everything unlocked that transfers it to all the Wii U setups?

If we can put the Smash 4 save on an SD card, it doesn't matter how long it will take to unlock stuff. Just pull the 100% save from the SD card and post it on smashboards (or just load a bunch of SD cards at the event like we do for Project M) so TO's can grab it before the event.

 

[Sharkz]

I don't understand why people are saying it would take too long each set to setup your custom moves. If they are allowed, everyone will know each move they will want to change, and considering there are only 4 that can be customized, I'd assume that'd take anywhere from 5-20 seconds. That's nothing. It'll probably take longer to make your tag, or change control options, or strike stages.

But I don't like the idea of trying to hide which moves you pick. I think everyone should have the opportunity to know each move you change.

The only thing I'm worried about are custom moves that are way imbalanced. There will definitely be some choices that you would be crazy not to pick as well as some that are quite lackluster. I guess we'll have to see how those play out.

 

[Laserbeamed]

If Amiibos can carry your custom move sets for you (and say the custom move set is tied to name tags), I really hope it saves it to the game. It would be terrible to have to choose between an Amiibo or GC controller.

Of course, there is a name tag limit so people will have to clean up after themselves after their match is over (it could be a huge hassle if you have to delete 100 name tags when it fills up over a tourney or two).

Or you might be able to customize right before the match, though your opponent will see that too (unless a gamepad or 3ds can be used). That might be what people want to have happen anyway, but there is something fun about surprising your opponent/having to adjust on the fly yourself.

 

[Coonce]

I think it would be nice (though I'm sure I'm in the minority) if every character, custom move, and stage was simply unlocked from the get go for versus play. Single player would be where you'd start with a limited roster and all of the unlocking done is for single player. It's kind of like Arcsys games, where you can play as any character in versus, but you can only choose a few characters' stories to play through. Once you do that, more stories for other characters unlock.

This will never happen, but I can wish.

 

[FlynnCL]

I love the idea of custom movesets.

It would be great to see players with their experimentation and personalization of their characters movesets, and I'm looking forward to the utility / techniques of them. The metagame and matchups of each fighter will grow deeper and it's also a great reason why Smash 4 will be unique.

I'd take huge issue if this is banned because they're custom movesets. I would understand the banning of custom movesets if they take an extreme amount of time to set-up, but the menu pictured seems easy to navigate and simplistic.

Now it's just the question of how they will be unlocked. 3DS-exclusive-but-transferable-to-Wii U would suck. Unlockables on Wii U is something that may take a long time to complete, but I fully expect a tournament standard save-file to have virtually everything completed.

 

[matthewmilad]

We should ban stat modification

First off, inb4 we don't have the game yet. We basically know all we need to know about character customization when it comes to questioning the legality of it. If this game is going to be played competitively, we should go forward with little regard to this mechanic.

Reasons:

>It is blatantly counter-intuitive to vanilla character balance (probably no need to elaborate on this one, but basically it seems to exist to appeal to people who want to play their favorite nintendo character AND play their favorite style. It has a lot of potential to develop recursive strategy)

>Difficult to manage (we can't expect every console at a venue to have every item possible for customization)

>Affects set up time (Goes off point 2, if players have to customize their characters every single set or even in between matches, it is going to reduce time available to complete an event. Factor that in with a set up potentially not having the items a player needs and then we lose even more time)


Custom Special Moves

I would like to say that I am a believer in custom special moves and I think it has a lot of potential to add to the game's strategy; particularly in how players approach specific match ups. Unlike stat modification, custom special moves seem to work in tandem with character identity, and for me, seems a lot like picking your super or your assist in capcom fighting games (street fighter and MvC, respectively). With that said, we should look out for certain things

>Recursive strategy (Even though it is more complimentary than stat modding, there could be recursive strategies from non-vanilla specials and we'll have to look out for that. It probably wouldn't take more than 5 offenders to bring the whole mechanic into question)

>Should still be banned for a 3-6 month period after the game launches (it needs to be tested and there is no way everyone will have all the parts for initial tournaments. This problem will be easier to remedy if someone uploads their save file off an sd card)

>Similar managing/set up problems to stat mod (would definitely be to a lesser extent, however)

I am a huge opponent to allowing the custom moves. In my opinion, Sakurai already determined the legality of these when deciding not to include them during online play. The same applies to the Mii characters.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I am a huge opponent to allowing the custom moves. In my opinion, Sakurai already determined the legality of these when deciding not to include them during online play. The same applies to the Mii characters.

Since when have we listened to Sakurai on how to structure our rules?

 

[stan423321]

I don't understand why people are saying it would take too long each set to setup your custom moves. If they are allowed, everyone will know each move they will want to change, and considering there are only 4 that can be customized, I'd assume that'd take anywhere from 5-20 seconds. That's nothing. It'll probably take longer to make your tag, or change control options, or strike stages.

It really depends on the menu layout.

The relatively pessimistic scenario (though there are worse ones for sure):

• Local Multiplayer (Brawl/With Friends Here/...)
  • Free-For-All
    • Select Your Characters
      • Select The Stage
• Options Menu
  • Gameplay Options
    • Move Customization
      • Choose Your Character
        • Select Slot To Be Modified
          • Select Custom Part

Now. The game typically dumps you back after a match into SYC menu. So to switch the moves, we need to:

• Go back twice
• Select an option of a short list thrice
• Select a character
• Select all moves, and then select the changed specials
• Go back
• Repeat last three steps (once for 1v1)
• Go back thrice
• Select an option of a short list twice

Now, the real fun is that there may be loadings on your way.

The relatively optimistic scenario:

• Local Multiplayer
  • Free-For-All
    • Select Your Characters
      • Switch Custom Parts a'La Custom Brawl
        • Select The Stage

I think nobody would pull the time card if it worked like this.

Now it's just the question of how they will be unlocked. 3DS-exclusive-but-transferable-to-Wii U would suck. Unlockables on Wii U is something that may take a long time to complete, but I fully expect a tournament standard save-file to have virtually everything completed.

For the umpteenth time, Wii U doesn't support save file transfer at the moment of writing. At all. And even if it generally did, it's worth remembering that Brawl did specifically ask Wii to not allow copying its save files. In fact, 3DS transfer can be a tournament saver, depending on the implementation.

 

[Kokusho]

I'm all for allowing customizable moves, if they are balanced.
It adds a lot of metagame and can lead to very interesting finds. I always like it when a player of anygame come to a tournament with an unusual build / strategie and crush people with it. Then others adapt to it and find a counter. It adds depth, I like it.

 

[ChikoLad]

If the game allows you to save say, three different custom movesets per character to easily switch between, I think the ditto issue could be solved. I think it's likely, since most other fighters with customisable character elements allow you to save multiple setups. Kid Icarus: Uprising's single player let you save 2 custom (weapons and powers were the customisable elements) sets, but multiplayer let you save a ton of sets. So it's not an unknown feature for Sakurai's games.

If custom movesets take a while to access, I don't think it's ban worthy even with that. I watched some Melee matches at EVO last year, and it took people a while to get off the character select to begin with, and another while to get off the stage select. Worst case scenario is that everyone sets up their custom movesets before the tournament actually starts, so they can just select their custom set, rather than set it up there and then.

If people really feel time is an issue though, then I think the rest of setup process should be streamlined for Smash 4 tournaments to accommodate custom movesets.

 

[Sane.]

I think there's at least some chance that you'll be able to save your name+moveset in a controller and simply import it, which should be quick enough for tournaments. Sakurai is trying to design a "party game" and a common aspect of party games is playing at different people's houses. Assuming it's in any way possible to store and import the custom movesets, I'd be surprised if it wasn't implemented.

I also completely agree that it's way too soon to even consider banning something so interesting that can add another layer of depth, strategy, and meta to a series that seems to be suffering from losing these qualities.

 

[matthewmilad]

Since when have we listened to Sakurai on how to structure our rules?

I know, but when the feature has clearly been set up by the developers to be non-competitive in nature, why would we want to sit here and try to work it into the competitive structure? I feel like it's something to be ignored, just like stat modifiers and other special modes that were just meant for fun.

 

[Anuran]

I know, but when the feature has clearly been set up by the developers to be non-competitive in nature, why would we want to sit here and try to work it into the competitive structure? I feel like it's something to be ignored, just like stat modifiers and other special modes that were just meant for fun.

this this this this this

 

[Coonce]

I know, but when the feature has clearly been set up by the developers to be non-competitive in nature, why would we want to sit here and try to work it into the competitive structure? I feel like it's something to be ignored, just like stat modifiers and other special modes that were just meant for fun.

And Sakurai also thinks competitive players only want FD, which couldn't be further from the truth.