(LEGALITY) Custom Special Moves: Maybe. Modifiable Attributes: No.

[Renji64]

I was against it but then i realized it could help make the fludd useful somehow.

 

[Oatmeal.]

I think this should be legal in the usual rules in potential Smash4 tournaments

Imagine having to set it up.

Every. Single. Time.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

If this was a different tournament dedicated to customization rather than the default moves, then I think it would be fine.

That wouldn't work. The customized move set tourneys would fade out. Having Smash 4 tourneys with doubles and custom move sets. And it will most likely have Melee tourney as well. idk. I know they wouldn't have to have all hat but if custom moves arent the norm then they'll die out.

 

[Leonyx]

Imagine having to set it up.

Every. Single. Time.

The issue is we don't know how we need to set them up, or if we can bring customizations in a USB or something. We may be able to save our customizations to individual names like we could with controls in Brawl.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Imagine having to set it up.

Every. Single. Time.

Yeah I really don't think it's as big a deal as you act like it is.

 

[PingPongCop]

Imagine having to set it up.

Every. Single. Time.

Shouldn't take that long. About 10 seconds for each player, if they know what they're doing. And we could set up a time limit.

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

I think it could add some longevity to the competitive scene honestly. Though I do agree it might take tournaments just a hair longer with everyone setting up. Still it is roughly the same as people customizing their buttons before a match or inputting their gamer tag.

See how tournaments run with the default moves and then try incorporating customs.

 

[Oatmeal.]

That wouldn't work. The customized move set tourneys would fade out. Having Smash 4 tourneys with doubles and custom move sets. And it will most likely have Melee tourney as well. idk. I know they wouldn't have to have all hat but if custom moves arent the norm then they'll die out.

I'm particularly interested in how it could be the normal set-up. Match-ups would be near impossible to make.

The issue is we don't know how we need to set them up, or if we can bring customizations in a USB or something. We may be able to save our customizations to individual names like we could with controls in Brawl.

Maybe if you saved it to a remote? That way you can bring it there for no set-up.

Yeah I really don't think it's as big a deal as you act like it is.

This kind of talk could start things that you don't want to start, if you're not careful. The word 'act' is dangerous.

 

[JoeInky]

The issue is we don't know how we need to set them up, or if we can bring customizations in a USB or something. We may be able to save our customizations to individual names like we could with controls in Brawl.

But that implies that you'll always want to use the same custom moves though.

What if you have DK (1132) saved as default to your name, but you end up against a metaknight (2122) and your custom moveset isn't built around fighting a character like metaknight so you want to change it to DK (3231), which is more favourable?

It doesn't really save much time in the long run because the moves you want to use could be matchup (or in a few rare cases, maybe even stage) specific.

If you can't change your moves via the CSS, custom moves have the potential to take a lot of time in tournaments, which is the only valid complaint against them so far.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Hopefully, custom moves can be changed on the fly in a submenu from the CSS. That's what I'm expecting, anyway.

 

[JoeInky]

Hopefully, custom moves can be changed on the fly in a submenu from the CSS. That's what I'm expecting, anyway.

If he doesn't it's a colossal oversight because custom moves are the single thing that has me hopeful about the longevity and watchability of this game.

At that point I'd probably be suggesting we go down to two stock just so we can have them in and not have the matches take too long. As much as I hate the idea of having less than 3 stocks, I hate the idea of not having the custom moves more.

 

[Oatmeal.]

I'm gonna say that we'll have 3-stock matches, regardless of whether or not custom moves can be accessed in a submenu.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is equippable items, also used for customization. Tournament systems more than likely won't have the items you use, so how would they be incorporated, if at all? I'm just thinking that we won't use them, period.

 

[JoeInky]

I'm gonna say that we'll have 3-stock matches, regardless of whether or not custom moves can be accessed in a submenu.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is equippable items, also used for customization. Tournament systems more than likely won't have the items you use, so how would they be incorporated, if at all? I'm just thinking that we won't use them, period.

I personally don't think equippable items should be allowed... unless there's one that reduces landing lag by half, in which case every character should be equipped with that pre-tournament.

 

[Neo Zero]

@Zwzchow I took the liberty of combining your custom moveset thread with the general custom moveset thread. Next time please keep an eye out for similar topics : )

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Barriers to entry for custom specials in tournaments:
1. Setup time. Smash already takes longer to run than any other fighting game; adding on another layer of customizing on top of every set could add a bit too much time to it (depending on the menu system).
2. Complications with counterpicking. Do you CP special moves after you lock your character? Does the opponent get to change their character after they see your custom special counterpicks or can they just change their specials? Etc etc.
3. Balance. Who knows if they are balanced at all.
4. Unlocking them. Custom specials require unlocking "custom parts". Unlocking every special on every Wii U used in a tournament is probably going to take a long time, so don't expect custom specials early in the tournament scene.

Overall, I'd love to have custom specials in competitive play because it would add an additional layer of depth to the game. But there has to be a solution to ALL 4 of the problems I presented in order for them to make it to tournaments.

 

[JoeInky]

Barriers to entry for custom specials in tournaments:
1. Setup time. Smash already takes longer to run than any other fighting game; adding on another layer of customizing on top of every set could add a bit too much time to it (depending on the menu system).
2. Complications with counterpicking. Do you CP special moves after you lock your character? Does the opponent get to change their character after they see your custom special counterpicks or can they just change their specials? Etc etc.
3. Balance. Who knows if they are balanced at all.
4. Unlocking them. Custom specials require unlocking "custom parts". Unlocking every special on every Wii U used in a tournament is probably going to take a long time, so don't expect custom specials early in the tournament scene.

Overall, I'd love to have custom specials in competitive play because it would add an additional layer of depth to the game. But there has to be a solution to ALL 4 of the problems I presented in order for them to make it to tournaments.

1. Yep, hopefully the menu system for them isn't too abstract.
2. I think it should work somewhat like Dota 2 hero picking, stage gets picked first, then characters, then each player picks a neutral, then each picks a side, each picks an up and then each picks a down. Who picks what first would depend on who got to pick stage/character first obviously. (though, if you can't both pick specials on the CSS then I think this would take too long in a separate menu so it depends on the first point).
3. I think based on what we've seen so far in terms of characters with non-unique special moves, they all have advantages and tradeoffs and I can't see anything that looks too unbalanced, hopefully they continue in the same direction.
4.We'll have unlocked them all on the 3DS version before the WiiU version even releases, and considering there's a "WiiU" option on the 3DS menu, I think it's safe to say you can just transfer characters and unlocked stuff over, I imagine you could just use one 3DS to get multiple WiiU's set up before a tournament starts.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Barriers to entry for custom specials in tournaments:
1. Setup time. Smash already takes longer to run than any other fighting game; adding on another layer of customizing on top of every set could add a bit too much time to it (depending on the menu system).
2. Complications with counterpicking. Do you CP special moves after you lock your character? Does the opponent get to change their character after they see your custom special counterpicks or can they just change their specials? Etc etc.
3. Balance. Who knows if they are balanced at all.
4. Unlocking them. Custom specials require unlocking "custom parts". Unlocking every special on every Wii U used in a tournament is probably going to take a long time, so don't expect custom specials early in the tournament scene.

Overall, I'd love to have custom specials in competitive play because it would add an additional layer of depth to the game. But there has to be a solution to ALL 4 of the problems I presented in order for them to make it to tournaments.

I'm pretty sure "custom parts" are just the items.

 

[JoeInky]

I'm pretty sure "custom parts" are just the items.

Custom Moves and Custom Items are both a type of Custom Part, according to the website.

 

[PingPongCop]

Barriers to entry for custom specials in tournaments:
1. Setup time. Smash already takes longer to run than any other fighting game; adding on another layer of customizing on top of every set could add a bit too much time to it (depending on the menu system).
2. Complications with counterpicking. Do you CP special moves after you lock your character? Does the opponent get to change their character after they see your custom special counterpicks or can they just change their specials? Etc etc.
3. Balance. Who knows if they are balanced at all.
4. Unlocking them. Custom specials require unlocking "custom parts". Unlocking every special on every Wii U used in a tournament is probably going to take a long time, so don't expect custom specials early in the tournament scene.

Overall, I'd love to have custom specials in competitive play because it would add an additional layer of depth to the game. But there has to be a solution to ALL 4 of the problems I presented in order for them to make it to tournaments.

I don't really see 1 and 3 being problems, and for 4, someone could just bring their own Wii U with all the custom moves unlocked? IDK, may be a bit too complicated.

As for 2... That's a really big issue, one I'm not too happy with. Maybe we could decide what specials and characters we want BEFORE a match starts, and we can't change them.

 

[Hong]

Barriers to entry for custom specials in tournaments:
1. Setup time. Smash already takes longer to run than any other fighting game; adding on another layer of customizing on top of every set could add a bit too much time to it (depending on the menu system).
2. Complications with counterpicking. Do you CP special moves after you lock your character? Does the opponent get to change their character after they see your custom special counterpicks or can they just change their specials? Etc etc.
3. Balance. Who knows if they are balanced at all.
4. Unlocking them. Custom specials require unlocking "custom parts". Unlocking every special on every Wii U used in a tournament is probably going to take a long time, so don't expect custom specials early in the tournament scene.

Overall, I'd love to have custom specials in competitive play because it would add an additional layer of depth to the game. But there has to be a solution to ALL 4 of the problems I presented in order for them to make it to tournaments.

To address your second point, I think it would be character selection first, then the counterpicking player gets to choose their specials last.

For the third, I doubt the game will be balanced with or without custom special moves, so I'm not too concerned.

For the rest, I'll definitely be waiting to see how they handle it.

 

[Leonyx]

But that implies that you'll always want to use the same custom moves though.

What if you have DK (1132) saved as default to your name, but you end up against a metaknight (2122) and your custom moveset isn't built around fighting a character like metaknight so you want to change it to DK (3231), which is more favourable?

It doesn't really save much time in the long run because the moves you want to use could be matchup (or in a few rare cases, maybe even stage) specific.

If you can't change your moves via the CSS, custom moves have the potential to take a lot of time in tournaments, which is the only valid complaint against them so far.

That's true. I was just thinking of ways to streamline the process, but really it's all up to Sora to determine how convenient it is to do.

 

[PingPongCop]

To address your second point, I think it would be character selection first, then the counterpicking player gets to choose their specials last.

For the third, I doubt the game will be balanced with or without custom special moves, so I'm not too concerned.

For the rest, I'll definitely be waiting to see how they handle it.

How will it not be balanced without custom moves? o-o I am confused

 

[SamuraiPanda]

For the third, I doubt the game will be balanced with or without custom special moves, so I'm not too concerned.

Okay that made me chuckle. Well played, sir.

4.We'll have unlocked them all on the 3DS version before the WiiU version even releases, and considering there's a "WiiU" option on the 3DS menu, I think it's safe to say you can just transfer characters and unlocked stuff over, I imagine you could just use one 3DS to get multiple WiiU's set up before a tournament starts.

Really good point here. If you can transfer custom parts from a 3DS to a WiiU then thats a solid idea.

 

[Hong]

How will it not be balanced without custom moves? o-o I am confused

Aside from the fact perfect balance is impossible in a product without being entirely symmetrical, even expecting good balance from Sakurai for every single character is a dubious prospect. I don't have faith in Sakurai's ability to balance a game, with and without a supporting staff of 12. That said, I do think at the very least half the roster this time will be entirely valid a year from now, which is actually pretty good.

That said, you need to consider the existence of moves that are:

1) Useless/Nigh-Useless in some match-ups (Ness' PSI Magnet VS Link, Villager's Pocket VS Marth)
2) Balanced considering FFA matches
3) Moves like Eruption which were probably a bad idea to begin with

For example, I hope to the Gods that Falcon Punch is at least up to parity with SSB64 so it has some sort of realistic function in 1v1 match. If anything, custom special moves can be great for moves that literally have no practical appliation in a match-up, to give those characters another button to press.

 

[Bladeviper]

Aside from the fact perfect balance is impossible in a product without being entirely symmetrical, even expecting good balance from Sakurai for every single character is a dubious prospect. I don't have faith in Sakurai's ability to balance a game, with and without a supporting staff of 12. That said, I do think at the very least half the roster this time will be entirely valid a year from now, which is actually pretty good.

That said, you need to consider the existence of moves that are:

1) Useless/Nigh-Useless in some match-ups (Ness' PSI Magnet VS Link, Villager's Pocket VS Marth)
2) Balanced considering FFA matches
3) Moves like Eruption which were probably a bad idea to begin with

For example, I hope to the Gods that Falcon Punch is at least up to parity with SSB64 so it has some sort of realistic function in 1v1 match. If anything, custom special moves can be great for moves that literally have no practical appliation in a match-up, to give those characters another button to press.

to be fair to them on balance there are teams with a lot more people on it and can't balance very well ether. The fact there are so many characters is whats causing this for the most part

 

[Hong]

to be fair to them on balance there are teams with a lot more people on it and can't balance very well ether. The fact there are so many characters is whats causing this for the most part

It's not like I'm saying the game will be any better or worse with less-than-perfect balance. As a game designer myself, I can empathize.

What I don't agree with is including FFAs and items into the balance team's workload. The former is too volatile (IE double or triple teaming one player), and the latter is too random. Not saying they should be ignored, so much as I don't feel the statistics for how character fares in FFA should always necessitate tuning for a fighter.

 

[Bladeviper]

It's not like I'm saying the game will be any better or worse with less-than-perfect balance. As a game designer myself, I can empathize.

What I don't agree with is including FFAs and items into the balance team's workload. The former is too volatile (IE double or triple teaming one player), and the latter is too random. Not saying they should be ignored, so much as I don't feel the statistics for how character fares in FFA should always necessitate tuning for a fighter.

i understand but i also understand they probably dont want any broken characters in any modes of the game that can be played against other people since whether its ffa or not a broken character can ruin a game but thats all my opinion

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/

If they can handle this, so can Smash.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Procedurally, specials are simple. It's just a pick after characters. So game one would be double blind characters, double blind moves, stage. Game two an on would be counterpick stage, winner character, loser character, winner moves, loser moves. I think time won't be that bad either (it won't be slower than custom controls in Brawl), and the unlocking thing does have me legitimately worried but I'm putting a lot of hope into 3DS transfers since in the direct it was confirmed the connectivity would have something to do with the customization system. I think we definitely need to give this system a shot unless we're shown a very strong reason it won't work after release (either way, it will probably be obvious very shortly after release if it's really broken or something like that).

 

[Hong]

If we can use coins to buy custom special moves on the Wii U version, hopefully it will serve to eliminate the possibility of being unable to find all the custom special moves.

 

[ECHOnce]

Procedurally, specials are simple. It's just a pick after characters. So game one would be double blind characters, double blind moves, stage. Game two an on would be counterpick stage, winner character, loser character, winner moves, loser moves. I think time won't be that bad either (it won't be slower than custom controls in Brawl), and the unlocking thing does have me legitimately worried but I'm putting a lot of hope into 3DS transfers since in the direct it was confirmed the connectivity would have something to do with the customization system. I think we definitely need to give this system a shot unless we're shown a very strong reason it won't work after release (either way, it will probably be obvious very shortly after release if it's really broken or something like that).

Double blind selecting moves might be a pain, since people may mix up the moves and stuff if they have three things to remember per person.

I think a RPS 1-2-2-1 format might be better for neutrally picking moves in the first game: Players RPS, RPS winner is P1 and loser is P2 (or other way around if people think that's better), P1 picks character, P2 counterpicks character, P2 picks moves, P1 counterpicks moves.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

D

Double blind selecting moves might be a pain, since people may mix up the moves and stuff if they have three things to remember per person.

I think a 1-2-2-1 format might be better for the first game: P1 picks character, P2 picks character and moves, P1 picks moves.

I would presume that picking character matters a lot more than moves so this gives p2 a large advantage. The way you do this to make double blind work well is just write stuff down secretly on a piece of paper. You have four moves with there possibilities. I might write down 1233 to mean I use the first option for neutral, 2nd option for side, and third option for up and down (they will doubtless be ordered in the in-game menu so the order won't be ambiguous). You could also whisper the four digit number into someone's ear too; this is presuming that whoever is arbitrating the double blind can remember a four digit number. Do remember that in a double blind only one person has to write down/whisper his stuff. The other can then just pick in-game and the first person's secretly recorded picks can be implemented after that.

 

[Veggi]

Does anyone know exactly how the rules for Smash Run work? From what I've seen, I felt like every single time someone got done with a Smash Run round, there was a custom move they unlocked. That's still a whole lot of runs through Smash Run to get all of them, but if it's possible to mess with the rules to allow us to get custom parts, maybe it won't be so bad. Imagine if there's something exploitable like the custom stage exploit with sand bag to get all of the unlockable songs in Brawl. Also, there's a tool that can be bought from the eShop to convert data from a cartridge to a game purchased through the eShop. That could also potentially decrease the amount of time it takes to unlock everything if the data is just copied.

 

[Hameed Ziabari]

Banning custom moves is like banning ultra 2 in sf, if the other opponent knows what you have, then it's fine.

 

[PingPongCop]

Does anyone know exactly how the rules for Smash Run work? From what I've seen, I felt like every single time someone got done with a Smash Run round, there was a custom move they unlocked. That's still a whole lot of runs through Smash Run to get all of them, but if it's possible to mess with the rules to allow us to get custom parts, maybe it won't be so bad. Imagine if there's something exploitable like the custom stage exploit with sand bag to get all of the unlockable songs in Brawl. Also, there's a tool that can be bought from the eShop to convert data from a cartridge to a game purchased through the eShop. That could also potentially decrease the amount of time it takes to unlock everything if the data is just copied.

There are bags that you pick up that contain custom moves.