(LEGALITY) Custom Special Moves: Maybe. Modifiable Attributes: No.

[Takehiko]

Thanks for making this thread. After I saw how Sakurai broke down how the Customizable moves would work, I really wanted to make a thread about it, but didn't know the best way to do it. But on point now.

We should ban stat modification
>Affects set up time (Goes off point 2, if players have to customize their characters every single set or even in between matches, it is going to reduce time available to complete an event. Factor that in with a set up potentially not having the items a player needs and then we lose even more time)
>Should still be banned for a 3-6 month period after the game launches (it needs to be tested and there is no way everyone will have all the parts for initial tournaments. This problem will be easier to remedy if someone uploads their save file off an sd card)

>Similar managing/set up problems to stat mod (would definitely be to a lesser extent, however)

I don't see it being a problem since it's inside the character select screen and possibly avalible after your select your character, so that would take about as much time as it takes for you to select your assist in MVC3. The problem would be if they didn't have it there and you had to menu travel through loading screens to just set up like why Gems were banned from SFxTK games because of how long you had to travel.
I also feel that it should be allowed because certain moves may come up to give a advantage to the character (like what if there is a c.move for little mac's UpB that allows him to recover, but takes away the strength from that move? That could make Mac more Viable than he currently is perceived to be.) this way you don't have people complaing about situations like Mario's FLUDD being a bad move. Rather it would be Mario with FLUDD C is way better than Mario with FLUDD B.
Lastly, I do agree that it should be time to test it out cause who knows, maybe Kirby's Ice breath might be OP and kirby players might be totally find with giving up suction power to get a top tier kirby.

 

[Mithost]

Stat modifications and custom movesets are a bit different. Most of the people in this thread approve of custom movesets, but the stat modifications might be a bit too much. You probably need some 3DS shenanigans to get stat changes on the Wii U, and it may just be Amiibo CPUs only. Movesets on the other hand we know we can use ourselves.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Having a starter Special set is pretty much the same as choosing between custom specials, so that's why I'd prefer not to have a "default" setting for custom moves.

I didn't remember the part about actual Stat level upping. That sounds pretty hardcore, not so sure if it's ever getting through to tournaments... but an additional layer of depth wouldn't be too bad, IMO.
If it's too time consuming, it could probably be approved for those who use the 3DS/Amiibo feature. But then again, this wouldn't be fair to players without Amiibos/3DS.

 

[mogwaimon]

Stat modifications and custom movesets are a bit different. Most of the people in this thread approve of custom movesets, but the stat modifications might be a bit too much. You probably need some 3DS shenanigans to get stat changes on the Wii U, and it may just be Amiibo CPUs only. Movesets on the other hand we know we can use ourselves.

The only way I would see equipment items being legal is if there were attributes on said items that actually improved the excitement of the game. You can see that some of the items have special attributes such as 'Quick smash attacks' or 'High speed dash'. What if there are items that give lower landing lag to aerials, simulate wavedashing, or otherwise alter the character in ways that make things more interesting?

I honestly doubt the equipment will be legal, but given that they have the potential for attributes like that, we might end up surprised

 

[Chuck Tatum]

Personally I feel that a mechanic like this is best left to special side tournaments and not the main events.

 

[Mithost]

Personally I feel that a mechanic like this is best left to special side tournaments and not the main events.

Stat modifications or Moveset changes? Why?

 

[popsofctown]

Y'know, people who play WoW PVP competitively are playing a much ****tier game than smash, paying by the month as they grind, and getting about the same amount of competitive diversity in the end for many times the effort. And they stick with it.

What makes it not worth it to you guys to sit on your butt and play single player a little to unlock all the stuffs?
If I'm going to spend thousands of hours with this smash just like the others, I want as much depth and variety as possible, and I don't think 100 hours of play per setup is unreasonable. I don't care if I have to wait for the setup with everything unlocked either.

 

[Mithost]

Y'know, people who play WoW PVP competitively are playing a much ****tier game than smash, paying by the month as they grind, and getting about the same amount of competitive diversity in the end for many times the effort. And they stick with it.

What makes it not worth it to you guys to sit on your butt and play single player a little to unlock all the stuffs?
If I'm going to spend thousands of hours with this smash just like the others, I want as much depth and variety as possible, and I don't think 100 hours of play per setup is unreasonable. I don't care if I have to wait for the setup with everything unlocked either.

I agree with you there. A 100% melee file (or at least one with all of the characters, stages, and random stage switch) isn't a very quick process without the use of save injection hacks.

I'm still not convinced custom moves will have to be unlocked. The only info leading towards this is smash run on the 3DS, which is 100% based on finding/unlocking power ups that change your character. It could easily be that you can't start with custom moves active in smash run, but can grab mystery items/drops that turn into random moves for your character. We haven't seen enough about it yet.

Let's just pretend that it's confirmed that you have to unlock them. Seeing that they are character specific, I think I know how they could be unlocked one by one. There are 8 extra moves for each character, so I'll provide

• Complete Classic Mode
• Complete All-Star Mode
• Complete Adventure Mode
• Play 20 vs. Matches with _______
• Complete Break the Targets (possibly multiples if Brawl's BtT levels are used)
• Score X or greater on Home Run Contest
• Score X or greater in Multi-Man Smash
• Complete 3 Minute Smash

Other ones include beating any other special modes (Boss Battles comes to mind), clearing certain event matches, etc.
It shouldn't take an unnecessary amount of time to get all the special moves unlocked, and doing most of this will probably unlock all of the characters/stages/extras a Tournament ready setup needs anyways. When you compare it to Melee's unlockables, this seems pretty tame.

 

[CaSTEELO]

Since there's an option to turn on/off customizations in the CSS wouldn't that imply that you can choose which specials you want to use while in the CSS?

 

[Mithost]

That'd be neat. Has anyone tried pressing the Customization button and turning it on?

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Maybe there's a customization menu where your nametag is?

 

[Galespark]

I don't see any reason to not allow custom moveset on tournaments, they are going to improve greatly the Smash Bros Meta-game.

The only potential problem I can foresee is, if custom movesets affects entirely a character no matter who is using it. But I think thats not going to be the case, I think that "custom characters" are gonna be tied to players's names, which at the same time can be saved on an Amiibo and you can transfer them anytime to any console.

So Amiibos might end up being essential for tournament players.

 

[CaSTEELO]

That'd be neat. Has anyone tried pressing the Customization button and turning it on?

The demos at E3 and Best Buy didn't have the option to do so.

 

[Mithost]

The only potential problem I can foresee is, if custom movesets affects entirely a character no matter who is using it. *snip*

So Amiibos might end up being essential for tournament players.

I really hope this isn't the case. I don't think it will be a problem though because of the Mii Fighters. Two guys wanna play as their own Mii and they both want to be the sword guy because he's the coolest. Why limit them to the same moveset?

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I'd probably try having two metas initially, one for vanilla sets, and the other for custom sets, and see how each works out. The standard meta is less likely to have anything instantly identifiable as game-breaking, and lets players get used to the new game without having to deal with the Mega Kangaskhans of custom movesets for the first couple of months, while those interested in playing around with custom builds are free to do so and sort out what is and isn't balanced.

I see this as a rather poor idea if we actually want custom movesets to be a part of competitive play. To be frank, I think most people would be less open to the idea of merging the two metas if customs are successful, as opposed to just starting out with one meta (the custom movesets allowed one) and then banning/separating custom movesets from the main tournaments if there are serious problems discovered with them.

 

[Mithost]

I see this as a rather poor idea if we actually want custom movesets to be a part of competitive play. To be frank, I think most people would be less open to the idea of merging the two metas if customs are successful, as opposed to just starting out with one meta (the custom movesets allowed one) and then banning/separating custom movesets from the main tournaments if there are serious problems discovered with them.

Yep. I can't see people wanting to try out custom movesets in tournaments if they have already gotten used to playing without them. Who's in charge of making the rulesets for Smash 4? Can we be a part of it?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I know it's a bit late, but I'd like to pipe in on this as I was checking up on this earlier this week because of this topic. SFxT gems were banned indeed, but a later patch added in 5 gem presets. Now, if I read it correctly, those five presets are now tourney legal?

I think they are currently legal, but the community is nearly non-existant anymore from what I understand. They added in Gems in the tournament scene to give the game a bit more of longevity IIRC because it sorely needed an injection. And it required that patch to even consider it. The gem selection wasn't as bad as you're making it out to be because they were mostly different categories with certain ones that were better than others. Did make the selection annoying though.

Fair enough, but even you have to admit that you have no experience that can speak to this because you've never seen the interface in action.

Yes. My entire basis is that the selection will be cumbersome and unsuitable for tournaments because most other games that have attempted something similar have done it through a very difficult and nebulous menu selection. I believe Smash 4 will be no different because there is no indication they understand people will want this in an easy way (you had to navigate to another menu to make custom buttons in Brawl for example).

That said, we'll have to see how it turns out in real life. Maybe Sakurai will surprise us. Or maybe he wont.

It absolutely does matter, as we've already discussed the possibility that Wii U parts need unlocks. If they do, we're in trouble, because it won't work if I want to use a custom move on a setup that doesn't have it unlocked yet in the same way I'm screwed if my setup doesn't have Toon Link unlocked.

Save file transferring if possible. And certain Wii Us will be used more than others thats all. If they have to be unlocked, then thats yet another reason why we can't have it at the start.

Also, you're speaking as though, if they're allowed at all, they will definitely be side events. Not so, and I will fight that tooth and nail. If we allow custom moves, they should be part of main events. No side crap. There should be no "custom move tournaments", only "tournaments". That's what people like me and (presumably, correct me if I'm wrong) Hong are arguing for.

While I don't know how these custom movesets will be like, there are three things I'm basing my assumptions off of more than other aspects. I understand tournaments, I understand competitive fighters, and I understand smashers. You seem to think that there will be a high demand for customizabile movesets. I don't think that will be the case unless they are more interesting than silly adjustments to waste our time.

Not meaning to be snarky, but beliefs are worth squat. I'd prefer it if we stuck to what we have evidence for before calling for things to be banned, please.

You misunderstand, I'm not calling for anything. I'm predicting a ban. If anything I think they would be interesting to play around with but I don't really care much either way.

So, let me get this straight. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, you're right. DB picking only works with a ref because people cheat, and even then, most players don't care. Are you also, then, for adding an explicit rule to all events that says "DB picking is banned, you cannot do it"? Because if not, then you cannot also rationally be for removing custom move DB picking for the exact same reason; you'd be a hypocrite. We're not saying, again, that EVERY pick would be DB, but that the option could be there in the same way (write your options on paper and give it to the ref). And, AGAIN, even if that weren't the case, DB picking is not intrinsic to custom moves, so if we can't do it, we can still have the moves themselves legal.

I don't understand your point here. Are you talking about where I said double blinding custom moves isn't possible? Even then I'm not sure what you're saying.

Nope, I disagree. Lack of demand is NOT a reason to ban them. There was a lack of demand for Link in Brawl, should we ban him, too? And, if ruleset cohesion was an issue, we'd be sitting here with a Unity ruleset right now. We, as a community, obviously only care barely about ruleset cohesion.

Yes, it is. Lack of demand is because our player do NOT WANT SOMETHING. Why would we jam it down their throats? There is resistance, there is pushback, there is a general feeling of distrust, and there is lack of faith in the "powers that be" to do the right thing for them. I've lived through it. All of it. There is no point in dividing the community at an early stage. But this goes to a separate point that I haven't fully fleshed out in a written format yet which is for the competitive success for Smash 4. Even though I quit playing Smash competitively 5 years ago, I still believe and strongly desire Smash to become a huge esport. And that requires more forward thinking than we've shown in the past.

And we see exactly how well that worked for stages in Brawl, right? >_> Or items? Come on, Panda, give me a break. You don't HONESTLY believe that, do you?

We tried custom stages in a midwest circuit, for the full circuit, and all events participating. It sucked and we never did it again. Nobody "banned" custom stages; they were just too difficult to implement in a standardized tournament setting.

And no I don't believe it. If choosing custom moveset isn't available at the begining; I find it very difficult for the stanard to shift to allowing them in. However, I truly believe that if it was truly best for the game AND fun AND made more characters viable... Then you could definitely see that shift. Items? Not best for the game. Not fun. Yes made more characters viable (and some less). Custom stages? Not necessary for the game. Didn't add any fun. Wouldn't make more characters viable.

If the best players play in custom moveset tournaments and say "This **** is legit" then you'll see it become standard across the board. If that doesn't happen with a pretty unanimous opinion, then no they probably won't ever truly make it in mainstream tournament play.

 

[Coonce]

Man I hope custom moves are allowed in tournaments. It reminds me of the different moon phases for Melty Blood, which I always thought was cool. It really helped with some poor matchups. Like a character with crecent moon could be rush down, full moon could be zoning/setup style, and half moon could be a mix. But the moon phases changed more than just specials. They changed normals as well as even movement styles sometimes.

And a useful alternative to sing??? Can you imagine???

 

[thesage]

It'd be hilarious if there was a variation of Fox's down-b called shine which had a hitbox that was good for comboing and jump cancelled but didn't reflect projectiles.

Outside of the characters that were specified as exceptions (miis and palutena) it seems like all the custom moves use the same animations. Bowser's fireball, which is a variation of his firebreath, still uses his firebreathing animation during it's startup animation.

I'm pretty sure people are just gonna to pick the best variations of a move and stick with it. I don't see how Mario would ever not benefit from having the fast fireball over the slower one.

 

[TimeSmash]

Personally I feel that a mechanic like this is best left to special side tournaments and not the main events.

For stat modifications, I agree wholeheartedly. UNLESS everyone will be playing with some sort of set parameters (something like everything must be maxed or set at some value), then maybe.

As for it would take forever to unlock things, do we even know if movesets are unlockable? Or are they available from the start? Also, if the whole "play x many matches to unlock such and such" is still a thing, theoretically you could play a bunch of one-minute and/or one stock matches to build up the match counter to unlock whatever. Unless if movesets have to be unlocked by something like Event Matches/Classic Mode/Target Test/whatver your heart desires.

Tying movesets to an Amiibo is a neat idea. I'm wondering if we'll see a screen similar to Brawl's controller option where you can put which moveset you want to use. It might also be available on CSS, which would help streamline the process.

I'm also sure we'll find weird character specific things that could benefit or hinder a character based on the moveset option. Kind of like how some characters can do some really neat things with wavebouncing like Lucas or even more specific than that, like Bone-Walking with Peach. And we'll probably find weird things like the Infinite Dimensional Cape glitch as well and can decide to ban glitches/exploits like that when they are encountered. Prematurely banning them won't solve anything, as seen by the past, although I do understand it will take some time to see a meta develop withthese movesets, and whether or not they're practical to put in use.

@ LiteralGrill , I'd love to hear your input.

 

[LiteralGrill]

For stat modifications, I agree wholeheartedly. UNLESS everyone will be playing with some sort of set parameters (something like everything must be maxed or set at some value), then maybe.

You wanted my input!!!

I agree that the items will be too much to manage. Items even with the same names can have different stats, and consider trying to transfer EVERY item possible onto a Wii U, possibly 4 copies each if, like stickers, they can only be used by one character at a time, for a doubles match.

As for it would take forever to unlock things, do we even know if movesets are unlockable? Or are they available from the start?

The Treehouse stream showed two moves being unlocked after a round of Smash Run, I'm going to assume they are all unlockable and must be unlocked in that mode.

@ LiteralGrill , I'd love to hear your input.[/quote]

You got my input! Along with this, I'd like to stress AGAIN how much easier this all will be to do on the 3DS with us bringing our own consoles. If anything, the 3DS tournaments can keep it legal to give the game a totally unique meta game. I'll be allowing it for my initial events and onward unless it does cause issues.

 

[Nstinct]

Question, how would you feel if Falco returned, but not as a character. But as an Alt as Fox, and all of Falco's moves came back via custom movesets?

I guess no one would be mad per say. But it would be odd.

I was thinking the something with Ness and Lucas. Although Ness and Lucas had Standard attacks that worked differently.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

The Treehouse stream showed two moves being unlocked after a round of Smash Run, I'm going to assume they are all unlockable and must be unlocked in that mode..

Which begs the question, how are they obtained in the Wii U version, which won't have Smash Run?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Which begs the question, how are they obtained in the Wii U version, which won't have Smash Run?

They might have to be transferred, or maybe Wii U will have some other way. We really don't know which does suck as it really does depend on how using them for a Wii U tournament would be.

 

[Mithost]

I posted a discussion thread about this on /r/smashboards. You can see it here: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/288llr/discussion_should_custom_movesets_be_legal_in/

I really don't think custom movesets will have to be unlocked. I think in all the footage we have seen regarding "unlocking" them was related to being able to customize your Smash Run character (same way you can give them items before the final event).

 

[DakotaBonez]

Which begs the question, how are they obtained in the Wii U version, which won't have Smash Run?

Holy sh#@...They wouldn't...would they!?!
Imagine having to purchase smash 3DS to unlock the custom moves in smash run and transfer them to the wii u, AND ya gotta buy figures for Amiibo !?! My wallet...my poor wallet can't take anymore!

So people will have to bring their ds to tourneys to load up there fighters custom moveset. This would be easier than having to unlock everything on every wii u used at a tourney, but why couldn't they just have the moves available once ya unlock the character? And why isnt there a cheat code to just unlock everything for the sake of tourneys!?!

But people won't want it to be REQUIRED to purchase both versions just to compete...this complication could lead to the banning of those custom moves.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Holy sh#@...They wouldn't...would they!?!
Imagine having to purchase smash 3DS to unlock the custom moves in smash run and transfer them to the wii u, AND ya gotta buy figures for Amiibo !?! My wallet...my poor wallet can't take anymore!

So people will have to bring their ds to tourneys to load up there fighters custom moveset. This would be easier than having to unlock everything on every wii u used at a tourney, but why couldn't they just have the moves available once ya unlock the character? And why isnt there a cheat code to just unlock everything for the sake of tourneys!?!

But people won't want it to be REQUIRED to purchase both versions just to compete...this complication could lead to the banning of those custom moves.

Not really, you could just share save files more then likely, unlocking them on one system over and over by transfering from the same 3DS.

 

[Mithost]

Most Wii U games allow saves to be put on SD cards, right? Then wouldn't it be easy to just upload the save files and mass distribute it to Tournament Organizers?

 

[DakotaBonez]

Not really, you could just share save files more then likely, unlocking them on one system over and over by transfering from the same 3DS.

IF they make the game that way. I mean they could make it so the custom moves are only loaded up while that player is fighting with his account. They could do a lot of complicated stuff. Or they could make it simple, I mean, we still dont know if they have to be unlocked in smash run or if they are unlocked with the character.

Most Wii U games allow saves to be put on SD cards, right? Then wouldn't it be easy to just upload the save files and mass distribute it to Tournament Organizers?

or this. Problem solved...I think. I forget if you can duplicate data, or only transfer it.

 

[Mithost]

Well we could just put the SD card in the computer and transfer all of the contents. You can do it on the 3DS too.

 

[Starbound]

I see some people bringing up unlocking custom moves.

Is there a source that this is going to happen? I'd get that you'd have to unlock the character to get their custom moves but I don't get why they'd make custom moves unlockable.

 

[Ginger Hail]

I see some people bringing up unlocking custom moves.

Is there a source that this is going to happen? I'd get that you'd have to unlock the character to get their custom moves but I don't get why they'd make custom moves unlockable.

From the E3 demos we saw people unlocking custom moves as random drops in Smash Run.

 

[Nstinct]

When I played the demo of the 3ds version I played smash run as Shiek and had the option to unlock fox's special (I think it was an up-special variation).

If what this guy said didn't simply apply to Smash Run then it looks like we'll be unlocking custom moves.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Is it possible to unlock custom moves without smash run?Like for wiiu only people.

 

[C_Mill24]

I'm for moveset customization being tourney legal. The match may take a little longer to get started, but it also shows another way someone can input their own style of play into their character.

 

[Ginger Hail]

Is it possible to unlock custom moves without smash run?Like for wiiu only people.

We have no idea how they'll be unlocked on the Wii U version, but I'm sure it won't be a situation where you'll need the 3DS version to access them on Wii U. There'll probably be some sort of alternate method for the Wii U version.

 

[mogwaimon]

Is it possible to unlock custom moves without smash run?Like for wiiu only people.

Keep in mind that we don't know the extent of the singleplayer options in the Wii U version. Chances are they won't restrict the acquisition of custom moves to the 3DS; it's likely that you'll be able to get them through an alternate manner in the Wii U version. I think Smash Run is meant to be the main way to 'power up' characters on the go for the customization options, but not the only way. I would wager that the design philosophy behind that is that the 3DS version is a way to have fun with Smash anytime anywhere without necessarily having to take it seriously, or to prepare a character when you're otherwise busy so you can later bring that character to friendlies on the weekend or something.

 

[Hong]

How long will it really take to unlock the moves if we have to? We can't seriously hope to have competitive tournaments within the first month of the game that will be taken seriously and without complications. There is still so much we don't know, like, can the same special drop twice? Can you buy special moves with coins? Will characters on the Wii U version earn them by clearing the classic mode?

I don't think this has to be an issue. Especially if DLC is a thing, and we'll have to figure out how to have a sufficient number of fully-equipped setups like the rest of the FGC.

 

[infomon]

I really don't care about any "tournament" rulesets / considerations that take place within 3 months of launch. Just have smashfests; it's just as fun, if not more fun, since we're all still learning the game at that point.. and many of us won't even have our copies of the game yet.

 

[Anuran]

Nope fighting games are a series of choices; weighing gain vs loss. Knowing what your opponent can/will do is a huge portion of that and if people can only guess they it takes away from what smash is. A resounding nope from my end.