(LEGALITY) Custom Special Moves: Maybe. Modifiable Attributes: No.

[Alondite]

I really see no reason whatsoever why the customizable movesets shouldn't be allowed. It's not as if any variations are completely advantageous, there are pros and cons to each.

As for balancing out lower-tiers...have you all forgotten that this is on the Wii U? Balance patches will happen; it's very likely that we'll see far more tier movement in this game than we have in past games.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

.....I just thought of something though: Falco might be in trouble now.
Fox's variants could very well just be like Falco's moves-Blaster could be the slow one that makes flinching, his Shine c an shoot you up or be thrown, etc.

And I know people are gonna say"well Falco is guaranteed to return!" Well, that's what they said about MegaMan in MvC3......

Oh boy I can see it now...

Blaster 2 - Shoots slower lasers that flinch (Falco)
Blaster 3 - Shoots bigger, unduckable lasers one at a time that Flinch (Wolf)
Illusion 2 - Is shorter, but meteors opponents (Falco)
Illusion 3 - Goes diagonally upwards (Wolf)
Shine 2 - Fox kicks it out and it returns like a boomerang (Falco)
Shine 3 - Shine sends reflected projectiles back at 1.5x speed (Wolf)

 

[Starbound]

I gotta say, I'm really impressed with the people who want customization legal. I love how it shows that parts of the community are ready to accept change. Customization is showing to be a huge aspect of Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS and I think it's smart to embrace that change rather than fight it. A lot of people have been saying that "Smash Bros. Wii U isn't Melee and it isn't Brawl" and I think that being willing to adapt to what customization does to the game is a great way to put your money where your mouth is.

I think this can extend with the items too (providing it doesn't, for example, give Mario a sword). Because honestly, everyone is just going to find the best combination and variety is going to be rare when that is found. And to be frank, Peach with +Jump pants is still going to have a better air game than Little Mac with +Jump pants so it isn't like the character's core gameplay is changing drastically. It's moreso just expanding your options.

 

[661522]

I think it would add another layer of strategy to the game. A Mario player could try to keep his upB hidden to unleash an explosive punch at an opportune time, for example.Not sure I understand the people who think it'll make tiers unworkable. A little more difficult to figure out, sure, but not impossible. Take a look at Pokemon. The characters there have like a hundred moves each to choose from, and it still has tiers. A little bit of an extreme example, but I don't think the analogy is too far out.

 

[MechaWave]

Guys, don't discuss Palutena, she is completely different. Her customization completely gives her new special moves, rather than simple alterations. If a tournament doesn't allow Palutena's special moves, then the whole reason she exists is nullified. A tournament will be forced to allow all of Palutena's special moves, so disregard her for now. Miis are different, they may not even be allowed in tournaments altogether, depending on how they are implemented.

I see nothing wrong with custom special moves for regular characters, though. It can help some of the characters' areas they fall short, but can also add some new problems. It's a balanced tradeoff. Sakurai and his team will also have to balance all of the characters' custom special moves as well as their normal ones and regular physical attacks, so there shouldn't be a problem regarding special moves being overpowered or anything.

Simply, tournaments will need to test this option. Right now, there is no reason they shouldn't be tested. If it's concluded they hinder a character's pros and cons too much, then they can be disabled.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I think it would add another layer of strategy to the game. A Mario player could try to keep his upB hidden to unleash an explosive punch at an opportune time, for example.Not sure I understand the people who think it'll make tiers unworkable. A little more difficult to figure out, sure, but not impossible. Take a look at Pokemon. The characters there have like a hundred moves each to choose from, and it still has tiers. A little bit of an extreme example, but I don't think the analogy is too far out.

Pokémon tiers (at least in regards to the well-known Smogon rulesets) are formed by frequency of usage, however. Smash tiers are based on a number of factors, though the shortened form is "tournament viability". There is some overlap, as Pokémon players will generally use the "best" Pokémon, which is how the frequency tiers became what they are. That said it isn't a perfect representation. The "Borderline (BL)" tiers in Pokémon are where Pokémon go if they are seen as too powerful for lower-tiered play, but aren't used often enough to make it into a certain tier.

TL;DR - Pokémon tiers are based on perceived power by the community, Smash tiers are based on perceived power by selected members of the community.

 

[infomon]

We cannot know, until launch, if this will be simple, mild, and intelligently balanced, or if it will be awkward, over-powered, and broken. This could be one of the most thrilling, intense, competitive aspects of smash4.

I am only considering the Special-Move variations, and not the irrelevant "equippable items" thing.

The case for custom movesets in competition:

ONLY IF:

1. The moveset options are mild and balanced (they make simple trade-offs and do not over-power characters).
2. The moveset options are quick and easy to configure (as simple as custom controller settings),
   or if they can be uploaded easily (via DS / Wiimote / Amiibo / ?).
3. "Fully unlocked" game discs are easily available to tournament organizers.

THEN: Custom movesets should be permitted in tournament play.


Why this is awesome:

1. It adds a "personal" element to the game; it's fun to make a character perfectly suited for your personal playstyle.
   
2. Protection against "unusably bad" character glitches. If a specific "basic" special move is determined to be useless / unviable in competitive play, then the character is not lost -- they can pick a variation that is functional.
3. Last-resort protection against "broken good" characters. If a specific move has a glitch that renders it impossibly good (think: the MK infinite dimensional-cape glitch), there may be a variation that does not glitch out. Again, the character is saved.
   
4. It allows the metagame to evolve deeply. When a specific move seems too powerful (think MK tornado), specific moveset variations could be found to counter it (Mario's Fire Orb?). This has a connection to the philosophy behind counterpicking characters.
5. It is a deeper skill. The best player at smash4 is the player that can adapt to any situation, and this is one form of adaptation. You can adapt to your opponent's moveset during the fight, and you can adapt your character (and hence your own playstyle) to be the best for the moment.

If any of my ONLY IF conditions are failed by the game, then custom moves should not be allowed. They cannot overtly disrupt the balance or flow of the game, and they cannot be an undue burden on tournament organization and efficiency.


I think Condition 2 (quick, easy configuration) will be a success, based on the information we have, and especially if a player's favourite variations can be saved and transferred between systems, we do not have a problem.


Regarding Condition 1: Will custom variations be mild and balanced? Sakurai has cited "balance" issues as being the reason that custom moves are not allowed in "For Glory" online matches. This is deeply worrisome, as it suggests he does not intend the customization to be especially balanced.

One possibility is that he was referring specifically to the "equippable item" variations, and that custom-Specials will be allowed in For Glory. This seems rather likely, unless Palutena herself will be disallowed from Glory-mode.

Regardless, our competitive community does not base its choices around the options that Nintendo sanctions for their online play. These are different worlds. Even if the game developers "intended" movesets to be imbalanced, we might find they're pretty well balanced anyway. And it does look like they are trying to make them reasonably minor, balanced variations.


As for Condition 3: Can TOs easily get fully-unlocked save files? I expect it will be simple enough to pass the game files around. But we can't know for sure until launch.


I personally expect custom-specials will be balanced, easy, creative, competitive, and awesome fun, and that they'll substantially improve the game's longevity. Which is great for everyone, especially tournament organizers and competitors.

 

[Banjodorf]

It's going to take some time to acquire every move for every character. (A minimum of ~49 characters = 392 options, not including defaults.)

I think this is a fantastic idea, and could definitely help some characters reach their optimal potential through lots of playtesting. it's going to take a while to reach that point though.

Honestly though, a character like Palutena is designed to use a whole bunch of options (and Miis too) and denying them wouldn't be very fair to the character. I think we'll be able to find which moves work and which ones don't, and it'll add quite a bit of depth to the metagame.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

I believe they should be allowed for various reasons:

• spoiler]Variation it'll make matches funner to watch
• Gives different playstyles
• Can help low tiers(I feel this'll be balanced though)
• Palutena and Miis should be allowed it's a part of them[/spoiler]

Also so balance patches!Nintendo seems like they want to get involved with the competitive community(I mean someone has to read smashboards right?),the tourney at E3,I heard they took input from the invitational players,it just all adds up.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'd probably try having two metas initially, one for vanilla sets, and the other for custom sets, and see how each works out. The standard meta is less likely to have anything instantly identifiable as game-breaking, and lets players get used to the new game without having to deal with the Mega Kangaskhans of custom movesets for the first couple of months, while those interested in playing around with custom builds are free to do so and sort out what is and isn't balanced.

 

[Mithost]

Sadly, I don't think running vanilla moveset tournaments and custom moveset tournaments will be healthy for the community or the metagame. Custom movesets will almost instantly get pushed into the novelty category (see Turbo mode in Project M) unless it's at least attempted to be embraced. Thankfully, we have the 3DS version to act as a sort of a "buffer" for experimentation. Because we won't instantly be diving into a tournament setting with the 3DS version and we won't need to make a concrete ruleset right away, we will have a few months to see if custom movesets are bonkers or not.

 

[tyc]

Right now the only reason for banning custom movesets to me is the burden of unlocking everything for every setup but that should be solved in merely 2 weeks so that'll probably end up being a non-issue.
Outside of that the customisation sounds so awesome that banning it would just take away one of the possibly best feature of the game gameplay wise.
And if the main concern is balance, allowing tournament play of this would be the smarter way to judge if it's broken or not.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Posted this on Reddit, figured I'd move it here:

"Not going to happen. Same as the logistics behind custom stages; there is no way to implement the custom moveset in a timely and efficient manner needed for tournaments.

We actually gave custom stages a shot back in the day. I was a Midwest smasher in the heat of the back room rule set discussions when Brawl first started. We actually ran custom stages on one of our Midwest circuits early on. Never again. They were far too difficult to implement over a variety of Wiis before the tournament. Custom characters would be a nightmare."

"Still logistically incredibly difficult and most likely wouldn't happen even if it was intended to be chosen quickly and easily in the select screen (which I highly doubt personally).

Reference: Gems in Street Fighter x Tekken were banned in a community that HATES banning anything (they tried to run a Smash tournament with all items and stages on at Evo) because they were too difficult to implement in tournaments. They were designed to be easily selected in the select screen and are far less expansive than these custom movesets."

"a) Time to select. It will take a while for people to create a custom moveset on each station that they have to move to in a tournament, slowing it down incredibly.

Also, keep in mind that Sakurai even stated previously that you'd be able to choose the angle that some attacks send. This isn't as quick as simply choosing a special like people seem to think it is. But for argument's sake I'll ignore that part.

b) Counterpicking. How would you counterpick in tournaments with custom movesets? You win a match, your opponent counterpicks your character who has a normally lousy recovery to a small stage, and you go choose the special that gives a better recovery as your counterpick? Or lets say you know who your opponent's main is so you make a custom moveset on your main specifically designed to counter him... This makes counter picking a nightmare and almost impossible when you have the option of adjusting your moveset between matches."

 

[Mithost]

We don't know how selecting custom moves will work. It's definitely possible that just pressing/clicking a button on the CSS would bring up a panel similar to the name selection/creator in Brawl. Without information about how easy it is to make/edit movesets, it's a bad idea to rule them out right away.

 

[Hong]

b) Counterpicking. How would you counterpick in tournaments with custom movesets? You win a match, your opponent counterpicks your character who has a normally lousy recovery to a small stage, and you go choose the special that gives a better recovery as your counterpick? Or lets say you know who your opponent's main is so you make a custom moveset on your main specifically designed to counter him... This makes counter picking a nightmare and almost impossible when you have the option of adjusting your moveset between matches."

I agree that logistics are a concern, but I disagree with this.

Characters/races/whatever in any game is not just about their options available in battle, but their options available before battle. You are thinking too immediately; the strength of a character now just considers the strength of all their options. After the metagame formulates around optimal setups per match-up, you always assume that character will use. You assume your opponent will have whatever is, whether objectively or subjectively, the best setup. If they use something suboptimal, they will either

a) Suffer for having a suboptimal setup
b) Reinvent the metagame after proving success... which is great

The characters will still always have good/bad match-ups, and what is good or bad assumes what is most optimal. For example, the developers of Street Fighter 4 obviously don't expect you to use an Ultra in a match-up where it is a weaker option. They advocate you to use, say, an anti-projectile ultra against a zoning character and the balance of the character assumes you are making the most optimal decision.

Ness's PSI Magnet from earlier entries is an example of a move where, the fact it is a stupid idea aside, is useless in the majority of match-ups. When you counterpick against a Ness, and your character doesn't have energy, you assume the match-up based on Ness pulling out a replacement that will be valid in that match-up, just as Ness should use an optimal setup against you. If a single option can drastically change a match-up, it is still factored in to how you counterpick against that character.

The losing player who counterpicks by switching character always get to pick their specials second. If it's a fast process that is done on the character screen, eventually everyone forms the muscle memory to select their specials literally in seconds.

 

[Pieman0920]

I mentioned this in another custom moves thread, but I think something that may have been overlooked is that its possible that while there are three variants of any given directional special, it also seems that those directional specials could possibly be set into different positions. Thus it would give you the ability to use all three variants at once, at the cost of losing two of your other special moves. For instance, you don't like FLUDD, or its variants, so you keep Mario's standard fire ball, and replace his down special with Fire Orb.

I say this, since during the Smash Run demonstration at the invitational tournament, the thing that was unlocked at the end was Yoshi move called Heavy Egg Roll, that was labeled as a down special. There's also a picture out there of a new Fox special called Charge Blaster which is labeled as an up special, despite Blaster being a neutral special.

Edit: Or maybe I'm slow on this...Did Sakurai just outright state it at one point?

 

[infomon]

Not going to happen. Same as the logistics behind custom stages; there is no way to implement the custom moveset in a timely and efficient manner needed for tournaments.

It is way too early for anyone to make that call. This is senseless.

We can do two things:

1. Propose criteria that we can use when the game comes out, to determine custom moveset legality.
   
2. State our personal opinions about what we might prefer.

Experience with custom stages is totally irrelevant, because this is a different mechanic that might be very manageable. We don't know.

b) Counterpicking. How would you counterpick in tournaments with custom movesets?

The logistics of counterpicking is an interesting, open question. Let's consider some options, so we have an unbiased idea of what might or might not work, before the game comes out.

Here's one proposal:

First match:

1. Players independently decide on their (unconfigured) character. "I'm Mario, you're Peach"
   
2. Each player can configure their character while the other is not looking. It's as simple as looking away from the TV.
   • Mario: "I'll pick Fire Orb while Peach isn't looking."
   • Peach: "I'll pick Poison Toad, I don't know what Mario did."
3. Each player can see the opponent's config before the match starts.
   • Peach: "Aha, he took the Fire Orb."
4. Stage is picked by the usual stage-striking.

Counterpick match: (suppose Peach won game1)

1. Mario counterpicks a stage.
2. Peach chooses to stay Peach.
3. Mario player counterpicks to Luigi instead.
4. Players both configure their characters while the other is not looking.
   • Peach: "I'm fighting Luigi, so I'll pick the Giant Toad, while Luigi isn't looking."
   • Luigi: "I'll pick Fast Fireballs, I don't know what Peach did."
5. Each player can see the opponent's config.
   • Luigi: "Aha, she took the Giant Toad."
6. Battle begins

The above asserts that players can customize their movesets based only on what opponent character they are fighting, and not what specific moveset that character has chosen. We can't know yet, but I expect this will be reasonable. The assumption is that moveset variations are relatively minor tweaks to the characters, that do not themselves significantly rebalance matchups / stage viability. But they give us a defense against especially broken / unviable character choices.

The blind config setup also gives us a minor protection against rock-paper-scissors matchup-configs (especially possible in the case of dittos). Again, I assume that moveset variations are of relatively mild impact, so this shouldn't be a huge concern. If the changes are massive, then I would agree that custom movesets are not tournament-viable.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I am obviously completely AGAINST banning Custom moves.

This is our chance to make the game MUCH deeper than Brawl, and people are already talking about banning it. Ugh...
Doesn't the option to switch specials between rounds (as means of counterpicking moves) entice anyone?


"It will take longer to set up in tournaments".
I highly doubt there's not going to be a Special Move customizer the second you choose your character (sort of how in MvC you choose what type of assist you prefer).


Not mad, btw, but it'd be such a waste to not have this option on. It needs its 6-month trial at the very least.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

It is way too early for anyone to make that call. This is senseless.

While you're right, I've been involved in so many different competitive fighting scenes so deeply that I know this won't stick. I could be wrong. It could work perfectly. I sincerely doubt it simply based on experience. I'm not for or against changing specials in tournaments. We don't know how balanced they may or may be (knowing Sakurai I'm guessing not balanced at all ). I'm simply talking logistics.

On top of everything else, I think logistically it will take too long because the custom specials will probably be in the same menu as the "custom knockbacks" that you can make. Meaning it will be too intense to do in a quick and feasible manner for tournament play. That said, I'll ignore that point completely because its entirely conjecture.

The logistics of counterpicking is an interesting, open question. Let's consider some options, so we have an unbiased idea of what might or might not work, before the game comes out.

Your proposal of looking away from the TV is not enforcable and impossible to implement in tournaments. You can claim to make it a gentleman's code but nobody with any desire to win would follow that. I remember when we tried to limit chaingrabs on a gentleman's code. That was funny.

So that means any proposal you would have to make would be one where the opponent is fully aware of what custom moves you choose. The only viable counterpicking options I can personally forsee with this limitation:

- Player 1 loses. Player 1 chooses counterpick stage.
- Player 2 switches characters or movesets.
- Player 1, after watching this change, chooses their character/moveset

This is the most viable option IMO given complexity and time issues.

OR

- Player 1 loses. Player 1 chooses counterpick stage.
- Player 2 chooses to stay or switch characters
- Player 1 chooses to stay or switch characters
- Player 2 chooses to keep default moveset or switch specials
- Player 1 chooses to keep default moveset or switch specials

This is more balanced but takes longer to do and will confuse many players for order.

I agree that logistics are a concern, but I disagree with this.

I concede your point is correct, there will be optimal setups for every stage/matchup unless the player chooses differently and that will make counterpicking a more predictable scenario. But I don't have an opinion on how it will affect the metagame of Smash 4 because thats not really the point of what I was saying.

 

[Hong]

@ infomon

For the first match, we'll see. Generally, custom options in any fighter don't really end up being custom, in a sense. There is likely to be very clear best options for a match-up. I think we could confidentially go into it where people just punch in their options raw. The option to blind-pick will of course always be there, but I get the feeling it will be scarcely needed unless someone is busting out some new technology and a lot is on the line.

For the second match, I don't think formalities are needed. Winning player can opt to change character, and change their moves if they wish. Losing player gets to see all of this, and they can pick both what they think is the optimal character and optimal custom moveset against them. The losing player gets both the advantage of seeing the moves you have selected in addition to the character.

Purely speculation, of course. I am not sure if any particular set of specials will cause a massive disparity in a match-up if a certain set of specials are not present on the opposing character. In general, as the meta evolves and more so as players/best characters/best moves become established, you just kind of assume what will happen if you win the first match. Just like always, in a best-of series, you have to pick a character (and in this case, now a moveset) that has to account for a counterpick. Just like in the past, if you win first in a bo3, you know that when/if you yourself lose, you will be able to pull out your own counterpick and exercise the same advantages as the the player you took a game off of.

 

[Mithost]

Just another tidbit about the whole moveset counterpicking thing, we shouldn't worry too much about if certain movesets "invalidate" certain characters using certain other movesets. The same thing already happens with characters, stages, and strategies in the smash games we know and love. The movesets that lose to a large portion of the cast or have an easily accessible hard counter will simply not be used. A metagame will form.

Also, can we get some sources on the "knockback editing" feature that SamuraiPanda is talking about? Are you sure that it's not just different attack variations?

 

[shinhed-echi]

I think Hong just covered much more deeply what I was going to say.

1st match, DEFAULT specials.
2nd match, loser can switch specials.
3rd match (asuming last round's loser is now the winner). Winner keeps his move, loser CAN choose a new special.

 

[Mithost]

I think Hong just covered much more deeply what I was going to say.

1st match, DEFAULT specials.
2nd match, loser can switch specials.
3rd match (asuming last round's loser is now the winner). Winner keeps his move, loser CAN choose a new special.

That actually sounds pretty neat. I like the Round 1 default specials idea. Not quite sold on being locked into certain movesets though (especially when character changing is still a thing)

 

[shinhed-echi]

That actually sounds pretty neat. I like the Round 1 default specials idea. Not quite sold on being locked into certain movesets though (especially when character changing is still a thing)

Thanks.
Yeah, character changing will always be an option. But on a personal level, sometimes I feel that the character choice was good, but maybe I could have had an extra tool... THIS is where different moves come in.

What if I feel that all I need was that my ROB got a Side+B that's more offensive (like Project M's) and less about reflecting?
I think this would help me adapt much easier than rather toss the whole character away for another, and adapt from start again.

*
And in general, as far as "it takes time to unlock". I will actually find it amusing if tourney goers WOW us with the alternate specials they unlocked, and introduced through their Amiibos. And little by little, every skill will start becoming unlockable.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yeah, I have to vehemently disagree with Panda on this one. I understand that you have a lot of experience, and I respect that, but if custom moves are gonna fail, they're gonna fail on implementation, not on how they affect matchups, and the fact of the matter is that NONE of us know how this is gonna work yet.

Are custom moves on Wii U unlocks or not? Just because they are on 3DS doesn't mean they are on Wii U. And, even if they ARE, can you transfer your unlock progress from 3DS or not? Because if so, TOs and players have 3 months to unlock all the parts, and if a player doesn't want to buy and play the 3DS version, well, no johns. If you want to compete, you will. I know I will with the assumption that I want to run Wii U tournaments.

Will custom moves have an unwieldy interface? Right now, we let players change tap jump off in bracket, which necessitates leaving the CSS to go into the options, and that's also on every station; only pros have their names preloaded onto every console, purely because of their prolific nature and the frequency with which they play. After a few events, the pros, who will probably use this the most, will have their data preloaded, assuming it's attached to names the same way controls are. So, worst case, you have 3 or 4 slow brackets before it starts speeding up.

Counterpicking? Maybe not even an issue. I tried implementing a rational CP system in ISP, and it turns out that item counterpicks weren't something most people wanted or needed, so most ignored it. We don't even know if people will want a dedicated CP option for moves, and something tells me they won't.

"Gentleman's code"? I wasn't aware that double blind picks didn't work because all players will cheat. >_> If calling for a DB pick works now, I can't foresee DB move picks not working, too. And, again, that assumes that players will even use that; we don't HAVE to bake them into default CP'ing, and unless a GF is on the line, most probably won't care, like Hong said.

There's NO reason not to test custom moves out in bracket day one. At least, no reason right now. Banning them for the first few months or discouraging their use day one is STUPID beyond belief and I cannot possible support that decision less.

 

[infomon]

I really don't want to be forced to have a first match of "default" moves. I want to find a specific hand-crafted customization of my main and a specific hand-crafted customization of my secondary, and just use those two specific variations always... reshaping them over time, or changing them if one setup is broken in a certain matchup or w/e.

 

[Mithost]

I don't see move unlocking to be much of an issue. You will probably need to do only beat Classic/Adventure/All-star plus a few Stadium things (beat Break the Targets and get a good score on Multi-Man Melee + Home Run Contest) to get everything for your character. That's assuming they even are unlocks instead of available from the start.

Remember guys, to get Final Destination in Melee you needed to first unlock all of the characters (Mewtwo himself required 20 hours of combined vs. mode matches to unlock), and beat every Event match. That was for one stage!

I really don't want to be forced to have a first match of "default" moves. I want to find a specific hand-crafted customization of my main and a specific hand-crafted customization of my secondary, and just use those two specific variations always... reshaping them over time, or changing them if one setup is broken in a certain matchup or w/e.

Sounds good to me. I'm fine either way.

 

[1MachGO]

There's NO reason not to test custom moves out in bracket day one. At least, no reason right now. Banning them for the first few months or discouraging their use day one is STUPID beyond belief and I cannot possible support that decision less.

Assuming set ups allow us to literally use them?

 

[Hong]

Again, we'll see how severe it is. I don't think a form of blind-picking on the first match will really be necessary on a competency basis.

For example, I am most interested in the Villager. He has the Pocket ability that, while cool, only works if the enemy has projectiles/items. So let's say he has a replacement that instead summons an item to throw, all theoretical of course. If you are playing Little Mac, are you really going to want to change your character just because I pick Villager and I don't use a special completely useless/sub-optimal in that match-up? Similarly, as the Villager, I would know if you pick Little Mac, you are on a competency basis going to select an optimal set of specials.

I don't think we'll have to play musical chairs with special moves that have a rock-paper-scissors kind of effectiveness against another special move within that match-up, if at all. We'll wait to see if any kind of RPS disparities even arise in any of the special moves that severely impact the match-up, and only then will we be forced to figure out a fair method of making this an efficient process. It is just the less likely scenario, in my opinion.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Also, can we get some sources on the "knockback editing" feature that SamuraiPanda is talking about? Are you sure that it's not just different attack variations?

It was mentioned several times by Sakurai. IIRC it may be on the Nintendo direct even but I can't recall offhand for sure. May have been a pic of the day or something instead.

I think Hong just covered much more deeply what I was going to say.

1st match, DEFAULT specials.
2nd match, loser can switch specials.
3rd match (asuming last round's loser is now the winner). Winner keeps his move, loser CAN choose a new special.

I disagree. If you're going to have customization with movesets, you start that from the beginning. Its silly to force the first match on default specials.

Yeah, I have to vehemently disagree with Panda on this one. I understand that you have a lot of experience, and I respect that, but if custom moves are gonna fail, they're gonna fail on implementation, not on how they affect matchups, and the fact of the matter is that NONE of us know how this is gonna work yet.

Yeah no I was talking implementation in tournaments not matchups.

Are custom moves on Wii U unlocks or not?

Doesn't matter. Everything will be unlocked eventually. Custom moveset tournaments will probably be few and far inbetween in the beginning (unless there is uncharacteristic amount of demand from the competitive community) and will likely be a side tournament at regular tournaments for a little bit if they are tried at all.

Will custom moves have an unwieldy interface?

Merely conjecture but I believe they will. We'll see though.

Counterpicking? Maybe not even an issue. I tried implementing a rational CP system in ISP, and it turns out that item counterpicks weren't something most people wanted or needed, so most ignored it. We don't even know if people will want a dedicated CP option for moves, and something tells me they won't.

Items and intrinsic attacks to your character are completely separate issues. I wouldn't bother counterpicking an item but given the option I would without a doubt counterpick a special. Especially if I play a character with useless specials in certain matchups.

"Gentleman's code"? I wasn't aware that double blind picks didn't work because all players will cheat. >_> If calling for a DB pick works now, I can't foresee DB move picks not working, too.

Indeed, DB doesn't actually work. Most tournament players don't care because we have specific mains. When people do bull**** picks based on matchups we all understand that and frown on it. I've done it a few times myself, everyone has. Calling for a true DB pick requires getting a neutral party to write down your picks separately. Its a ***** but some people (again including myself) have done it in the past but rarely.

There's NO reason not to test custom moves out in bracket day one.

Yes there is. a) Lack of demand (whcih admittedly we won't know the demand for it until its out and b) the necessity of a cohesive ruleset from the outset to allow more players to understand our rules and get into a new title (Brawl was released before competitive gaming became a spectator sport; in the interest of making Smash 4 into the biggest and best competitive title any Smash has ever been, I believe we need at least a base ruleset most tournaments share but this is simply my opinion and nothing else).

I think custom movesets should start slow and be experimental until proven in various facets to be good for the game's health and the community's health.

 

[Mithost]

Assuming set ups allow us to literally use them?

One of the topics of this thread was talking about making sure we tried them out before condemming them in a tournament ruleset. We want to avoid having the first Wii U tournament rulesets having a "Custom Movesets are banned" clause. We have the 3DS version to test on to see if the movesets themselves are problematic or not, and it will take roughly 2 minutes to decide if we can access and select movesets in enough time (once again, based on making name tags, counterpicking, and changing controls/rumble) to have them tournament viable.

It was mentioned several times by Sakurai. IIRC it may be on the Nintendo direct even but I can't recall offhand for sure. May have been a pic of the day or something instead.

Please gather sources for these "several times" before you base a part of an argument on them.

Merely conjecture but I believe they will. We'll see though.

SFxT was a sloppy game for more reasons than just gems. More fighting games have done pre-game customization well than ones that have done it poorly. We shouldn't base near-permanent metagame decisions off of literally nothing.

If we "take things slowly" with custom movesets, the players that are trying to cling onto the past games will instantly move custom moveset legal tournaments to the novelty category (see custom stages in brawl) and we will never be able to phase them in.

 

[mogwaimon]

Reference: Gems in Street Fighter x Tekken were banned in a community that HATES banning anything (they tried to run a Smash tournament with all items and stages on at Evo) because they were too difficult to implement in tournaments. They were designed to be easily selected in the select screen and are far less expansive than these custom movesets."

I know it's a bit late, but I'd like to pipe in on this as I was checking up on this earlier this week because of this topic. SFxT gems were banned indeed, but a later patch added in 5 gem presets. Now, if I read it correctly, those five presets are now tourney legal?

I would also argue that they are far MORE expansive than the custom movesets, as there are at least 100 gems and up to five slots to install them into, making for more possible configurations per team than in Smash, where there are 4 slots and only 3 possible entries per slot. If the character select screen had a space where you could quickly select the move you want for each slot then it gets even simpler, it would only take an extra few seconds for the player to select their configuration and it would be little different from selecting your Ultra pre-match in SFIV.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yeah no I was talking implementation in tournaments not matchups.

Fair enough, but even you have to admit that you have no experience that can speak to this because you've never seen the interface in action. A vast majority of your argument hinges on how the moves are implemented, and specifically, how that implementation affects running a bracket. If it either affects running a bracket in a trivial way, or players demand it hard enough to override that consideration, or (if we're not massive scrubs) if what we gain in the metagame overrides that consideration, your entire argument falls apart.

Doesn't matter. Everything will be unlocked eventually. Custom moveset tournaments will probably be few and far inbetween in the beginning (unless there is uncharacteristic amount of demand from the competitive community) and will likely be a side tournament at regular tournaments for a little bit if they are tried at all.

It absolutely does matter, as we've already discussed the possibility that Wii U parts need unlocks. If they do, we're in trouble, because it won't work if I want to use a custom move on a setup that doesn't have it unlocked yet in the same way I'm screwed if my setup doesn't have Toon Link unlocked.

Also, you're speaking as though, if they're allowed at all, they will definitely be side events. Not so, and I will fight that tooth and nail. If we allow custom moves, they should be part of main events. No side crap. There should be no "custom move tournaments", only "tournaments". That's what people like me and (presumably, correct me if I'm wrong) Hong are arguing for.

Merely conjecture but I believe they will. We'll see though.

Not meaning to be snarky, but beliefs are worth squat. I'd prefer it if we stuck to what we have evidence for before calling for things to be banned, please.

Items and intrinsic attacks to your character are completely separate issues. I wouldn't bother counterpicking an item but given the option I would without a doubt counterpick a special. Especially if I play a character with useless specials in certain matchups.

Items in an item format are just as important, and there ARE players who used it when given the option, just like you would... whether that's a MAJORITY, though, neither of us can say. Again, many players may not care about the moves at all, much less counterpicking them, because they're entering for fun, or don't know the meta well enough, or are lazy, or for any other of a million reasons. Again, if we bake CP'ing moves into the ruleset, that a choice aside from whether the moves are legal or not, and we can have one without the other. We shouldn't speak of custom moves as though if we can't make a good CP system, we have to ban them, because that's nonsense.

Indeed, DB doesn't actually work. Most tournament players don't care because we have specific mains. When people do bull**** picks based on matchups we all understand that and frown on it. I've done it a few times myself, everyone has. Calling for a true DB pick requires getting a neutral party to write down your picks separately. Its a ***** but some people (again including myself) have done it in the past but rarely.

So, let me get this straight. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, you're right. DB picking only works with a ref because people cheat, and even then, most players don't care. Are you also, then, for adding an explicit rule to all events that says "DB picking is banned, you cannot do it"? Because if not, then you cannot also rationally be for removing custom move DB picking for the exact same reason; you'd be a hypocrite. We're not saying, again, that EVERY pick would be DB, but that the option could be there in the same way (write your options on paper and give it to the ref). And, AGAIN, even if that weren't the case, DB picking is not intrinsic to custom moves, so if we can't do it, we can still have the moves themselves legal.

Yes there is. a) Lack of demand (whcih admittedly we won't know the demand for it until its out and b) the necessity of a cohesive ruleset from the outset to allow more players to understand our rules and get into a new title (Brawl was released before competitive gaming became a spectator sport; in the interest of making Smash 4 into the biggest and best competitive title any Smash has ever been, I believe we need at least a base ruleset most tournaments share but this is simply my opinion and nothing else).

Nope, I disagree. Lack of demand is NOT a reason to ban them. There was a lack of demand for Link in Brawl, should we ban him, too? And, if ruleset cohesion was an issue, we'd be sitting here with a Unity ruleset right now. We, as a community, obviously only care barely about ruleset cohesion. And, how many times have we said while making rulesets that we don't legislate for non-tourneygoers? I agree that we SHOULD consider the new player, but if a new player doesn't want to take the time to learn the rules, which in theory would be as easy as "when you pick your character, pick your moves, too", then honestly, that player shouldn't compete. Your B argument only holds up if we have to make ridiculously complex rules to implement custom moves, which we have NO evidence as of now to support.

I think custom movesets should start slow and be experimental until proven in various facets to be good for the game's health and the community's health.

And we see exactly how well that worked for stages in Brawl, right? >_> Or items? Come on, Panda, give me a break. You don't HONESTLY believe that, do you? All that "experience", and you honestly think that unbanning custom moves would be easy or simple, even assuming a mountain of evidence in their favor actually presents itself? That there wouldn't be people kicking the can and saying "well, it's not enough, how about a little more time"? Come on. Please. You know just as well as I do that you have this backwards.

 

[yahooda]

I predict that in tournaments each character will have their legal set of moves that are deemed the most balanced and any other moves might be banned.

 

[Boss N]

How about this: instead of allowing players to change their Custom Specials each round (since I can't imagine that getting done in a timely fashion) how about players carry their custom characters on their 3DS and whatever they bring is locked either the entire tournament or for their current match. If their character fails then they can either stick with it and try again, or counter pick with one of their other stored characters who might have a combination better suited for their opponent, but they can't edit moves until the match is completely done.

Then if they know who they're going up against next match they can alter their characters on their 3DS while they wait if they think changes are necessary to counter-act their opponents play style. This keeps thing fresh and interesting the entire tournament without dragging it between rounds.

 

[Mithost]

Not everybody has a 3DS, and not everybody should be expected to have one.

 

[Banjodorf]

Inevitably, we're going to discover which special moves are overall better for character performance, and since I'm presuming the switch will be quick, simple and tied to "nicknames" like customized controls in Brawl/PM, it shouldn't be an issue.

Just using Mario as a basis looking at the examples given, he already has some moves I can see as "probably better" than his old defaults. And they'll probably be preferred eventually. This isn't (hopefully, unless the community is that stubborn about it) something that's so black and white as "vanilla movesets because reasons."

Also, have they discussed whether Amiibos can store actual character data, not just an NPC with stats/custom moves? If you could save like, your specific character settings and then bring in an Amiibo to play as them, that could also help ease of access for tourney organizers.

 

[Backgammon]

I'm gonna say what I said to one of my friends on that subject. Custom movesets, heavily customised Palutenas and Miis are all good by me, even in tournament play. As long as we are given information about the opponent's customised moveset before the match begins.

For example, I am using my default Rosalina, say, against an opponent's Mii Fighter. Prior to the match, I would be given information that he is using, say... Ghandi - Swordfighter - Special Moves 3, 7, 14 and 15 and he gets the information that I'm using Rosalina with default moves.

This makes it fair on both parties and eliminates the element of surprise, which would lead to the "campy" gameplay that people seem to despise so much.

 

[Banjodorf]

I'm sure it wouldn't take more than a second to check what special moves they're using. As someone who plans to main Palutena, not being able to use 8/12 of her available moves would just be a massive kick in the ****. It would be especially discouraging if her defaults were terrible, or included Counter, and I was stuck with that. (I hate Counters.)

It's going to make learning matchups more difficult, sure, but it will also add alot more depth to the game than we've seen in quite some time.

 

[Mithost]

I'm gonna say what I said to one of my friends on that subject. Custom movesets, heavily customised Palutenas and Miis are all good by me, even in tournament play. As long as we are given information about the opponent's customised moveset before the match begins.

For example, I am using my default Rosalina, say, against an opponent's Mii Fighter. Prior to the match, I would be given information that he is using, say... Ghandi - Swordfighter - Special Moves 3, 7, 14 and 15 and he gets the information that I'm using Rosalina with default moves.

This makes it fair on both parties and eliminates the element of surprise, which would lead to the "campy" gameplay that people seem to despise so much.

I agree entirely. It should be like knowing what characters/stages you are going to play on before the match begins (unless one of you picks random characters, which has flaws in itself).