ledge range

[kupo15]

Should we do something about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEz1Q7DpOU0

I think so. I easiest way would be to replace the forward ledge grabbing range with the back since the back is less than the front. With having reverse grabbing ledges and a side b auto sweet spot, I see no reason why we grabbing the ledge should be even easier with this ridiculous amount of range.

 

[Dark Sonic]

This is something that I only want done after we make it possible to tech during hitlag (and thus you'd be able to ledgetech).

If we do it before....then we'll have no way of dealing with edgeguards that hit below the edge.

 

[goodoldganon]

No, not at all. We already have NASL to give people more options for edgeguarding. If we make the sweetspot range even smaller we will nerf many characters that don't need it. I hate using this statement, but: The ledges are fine in Brawl+. Melee had tough sweetspots Brawl doesn't need em too. Making the sweetspot smaller only weakens the off the stage game even more.

EDIT: Poorly written and a rambling of ideas, but you get the picture

 

[kupo15]

No, not at all. We already have NASL to give people more options for edgeguarding. If we make the sweetspot range even smaller we will nerf many characters that don't need it. I hate using this statement, but: The ledges are fine in Brawl+. Melee had tough sweetspots Brawl doesn't need em too. Making the sweetspot smaller only weakens the off the stage game even more.

EDIT: Poorly written and a rambling of ideas, but you get the picture

Huh? Do I need to put up another video showing me grabbing it from even further away? Do you not see the ridiculousness of that video? We can still make sweet spotting easier than melee but this is just outragous. Did you see how far I sweet spotted from? I can go a little bit further out.

I agree with Dark sonic though. After (and if) we get a ledge teching code, if you can't get back with reverse ledges, auto sweet spot side bs, and ledge teching, then you have no excuse.

 

[KishSquared]

Welcome to the past!!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219328

This was the very first thing I posted back here. I absolutely agree that it needs to be reduced to Melee-like distances. If it can be done, let it be so. This warp distance decreases the effectiveness of ledge-guarding, and it also promotes camping tactics that are very strong. Planking is dependent on this warp distance, for example.

If you read that thread, I was told that it would be impossible to do. Has that changed?

 

[leafgreen386]

A lot of things that were previously thought to be "impossible" to do have been proven to actually be possible. It was already proven that some stages (or parts of them, at least) could be modified in size, so it's possible that we'll be able to edit these grab bubbles, as well. Whatever we do, though, we can't get rid of backwards grabbing. If it's possible to shrink the grab range and shift the character's grab box slightly more toward their back to preserve hugging that would be good.

 

[Revven]

If we can make the back side of characters' grab range larger to compensate, I'm all for this change. (Thinking about it, this would also help Peach's recovery when she's facing backwards).

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not yet sure if we need this. in vB the range was just insane. in B+ not much so for NASL and other stuff. if we are gonna do this though, mybe we can cut the size of the chars grab bubble in half and move it forward a lot, thus almost killing backward grabs.

 

[leafgreen386]

Except we don't want to kill backwards ledgegrabbing. lol

We want to weaken grabbing the ledge while facing forward.

 

[kupo15]

If we can make the back side of characters' grab range larger to compensate, I'm all for this change. (Thinking about it, this would also help Peach's recovery when she's facing backwards).

Why make the back one larger when the problem is with the front one? I think we just need to make the front grab boxs like the back.

I'm not yet sure if we need this. in vB the range was just insane. in B+ not much so for NASL and other stuff. if we are gonna do this though, mybe we can cut the size of the chars grab bubble in half and move it forward a lot, thus almost killing backward grabs.

The grab range is the same in vbrawl and b+

 

[shanus]

Do you know if it is multiple bubbles or just one large bubble? In working with the hitbox code I found some weird shaped bubbles when i disabled hitboxes so I'm just wondering if you know if its multiple or one. I.e. MK fair third hit hitbox has a very strange bubble which is at the edge of his sword and the middle of his body at the same time and the 2nd hitbox at that same time is the area inbetween it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, I know that melee had two grab boxes (the back grab box disabled you from grabbing the ledge, which is what caused all those battlefield ledge problems). I can't imagine why they'd change this in brawl. They probably just made the back grab box able to grab the ledge and made the front one bigger.

 

[goodoldganon]

I think this is different by character. Try it with Wolf or Zelda after their Up-Bs. Not nearly as large of a range. I think if we do this it needs to be edited by character and not by the ledge.

Personally, this never bothered me. All it did was give a few recoveries a few extra yards that they can grab away from. I don't want to assume anything, but it seems you picked two of the characters with the largest ledge grab range and made a video. Falcon, Ganon and Jiggly are on the extreme huge range and Zelda and Wolf are on the extreme small range. Making one grab range homogenizes the cast which is something I feel we have gotten dangerously close to at times.

<There is some silliness here, don't take offense>
What does making a smaller grab range do? Enhances the edge game? I don't buy it. In those examples the characters were hanging out over the edge for a long time. And no, not cause it was in slow-mo. What were you doing all this time? Charging a smash? Grow some balls and chase them over the edge! All I can see by a nerf to the grab range is another step to homogenize the cast and a nerf to characters that have good grab ranges.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Ledgegrab range has always been character specific. It's still way to big for every character as it is now.

 

[kupo15]

Well, I know that melee had two grab boxes (the back grab box disabled you from grabbing the ledge, which is what caused all those battlefield ledge problems). I can't imagine why they'd change this in brawl. They probably just made the back grab box able to grab the ledge and made the front one bigger.

This is probably correct. Hopefully it would be as easy as making the front ones the same size as the back

Idk why melee even had backwards grab boxes if they were never used except chars like falcon, bowser, dk ect

 

[goodoldganon]

^^Ledgegrab range has always been character specific. It's still way to big for every character as it is now.

See I disagree but to each his own. Basically what I'm seeing is we want to globally nerf almost all recoveries. What about characters that need that grab range? Are we gonna make exceptions for people like Ganondorf? Once again, this video only shows two characters who are on the absolute extreme.

 

[Revven]

Ness is also pretty extreme but, IMO, he needs a long range to grab the ledge because simply put: his recovery was already quite nerfed from NASL (bounces on some stages, on others it snaps). I'd say, only do it to characters that SHOULDN'T reach as far as they do.

 

[shanus]

Yeah, think of poor diddy haha

I hate the ******* but that would just be a cruel change

 

[Revven]

Yeah, think of poor diddy haha

I hate the ******* but that would just be a cruel change

Yeah, ESPECIALLY Diddy, don't touch people that got nerfed terribly from NASL (Diddy Kong and Ness mostly, Lucas has MANY options of recovery).

 

[kupo15]

or we can actually just remove the stupid bounces? And I'm not thinking about keeping the grabbing range in proportion, but find a good common length.

 

[goodoldganon]

or we can actually just remove the stupid bounces? And I'm not thinking about keeping the grabbing range in proportion, but find a good common length.

sigh...

Why? It does nothing but homogenize the cast. I ask again, what are you guys doing while the person is recovering? Brawl and Brawl+ are still much more floaty. Get your *** of the stage and stage spike or gimp. Recovering is already a disadvantage, why do we need to keep nerfing it? Oh because Smash64 and Melee did? BULL! This is Brawl. I can chase someone halfway to the blastzone with Ganondorf and recover. If you want to watch Jigglypuff do a pound from all the way out their, be my guest. But don't whine about it because you didn't want to chase her.

I haven't seen a single reason why the grab ranges need to be nerfed besides 'I think they are too large.' And once again, I'm not buying it. We have lagless ledges for a reason. Hang on that sucker and jump off for gimps and spikes.

EDIT: I made a sammich. It's delicious.

EDIT2: If you want to reach me on this, tell me who has extreme grab ranges that should be nerfed and why they deserve a recovery nerf. I'm not seeing anything else from changing this but a nerf to recoveries. (In actual distance, not like NASL)

 

[kupo15]

Excuse me? Last I checked, sweet spotting was a skill. NOT something to be taken for granted. Punishing a missed sweet spot is no less a gimp than going out with a spike. Spiking still has little reward for the risk anyway but that is besides the point.

Was my video not proof enough for how ridiculous it was? Do you want me to show you more characters? I don't know about you, but even the comments on that video agreed as well. I'm sorry but if you can't handle a smaller front only ledge grab range in a floatier game in which air dodging doesn't kill you off the stage, ledge teching (if we get it), reverse ledge grabbing and an auto sweet spotting side b's, no more roll ledge occupancy, then you have no excuse.

Get better and stop whining about not having the game recover your character for you and actually learn to recover because YOU must recover, not the game recovering for you. Seriously, auto sweet spotting side bs is pushing it a little bit. And are you going to complain more about the prospect of removing the up b sweet spot when your up b connects with something even a shield?

 

[goodoldganon]

Excuse me? Last I checked, sweet spotting was a skill. NOT something to be taken for granted. Punishing a missed sweet spot is no less a gimp than going out with a spike. Spiking still has little reward for the risk anyway but that is besides the point.

Was my video not proof enough for how ridiculous it was? Do you want me to show you more characters? I don't know about you, but even the comments on that video agreed as well. I'm sorry but if you can't handle a smaller front only ledge grab range in a floatier game in which air dodging doesn't kill you off the stage, ledge teching (if we get it), reverse ledge grabbing and an auto sweet spotting side b's, then you have no excuse.

Get better and stop whining about not having the game recover your character for you and actually learn to recover because YOU must recover, not the game recovering for you. Seriously, auto sweet spotting side bs is pushing it a little bit. And are you going to complain more about the prospect of removing the up b sweet spot when your up b connects with something even a shield?

First, I think the sweetspotting from hitting a shield or opponent is fine. The edgeguarder has almost every advantage in the situation. Letting your opponent sweetspot the edge seems like a reasonable punishment for ****ing an edgeguard up.

Also, the video is showing the skill of sweetspotting. Just because the range is a little large doesn't mean it doesn't still take skill. Guess what? People can't sweetspot if you are hanging on the edge. Use that and aerials to cover your bases. If someone wants to try and recover from that far and sweetspot then spike em or hog them. If they want to try for a faster closer sweetspot then you can stay on the stage and attempt to get them from there. Against an opponent that isn't afraid to jump off the stage and get his feet 'wet' it is riskier to use the full range on the ledge grabs.

I can also say the same thing about the off the stage game as you said. If you can't gimp someone off the side of the stage when we have a much more floaty game, reverse edge grabbing, and an auto snapping side-b you have no excuse. I have gotten plenty off the stage kills abusing the range we are given.

ASL is having the game recover for you. Having a large grab range isn't having the game recover for you, its giving the recoverer (or recoveree, whatever we call it ) more options when Brawl gives the edgeguarder even more options.

As always, we don't see eye to eye on this but as always I'm willing to test new changes. Either way, here are the reasons I am against lowering the grab range:

1. Hurts recoveries. Either we keep some huge grab ranges for some characters or we risk having a huge nerf to characters that need that recovery range.

2. We continue to make the off the stage game less appealing. NASL makes the off the stage game more unappealing already, but the code is needed to add some skill to recovering as well as removing edge stalling.

 

[shanus]

I tend to side with ganon a bit more in that I think it should be used to fix the retardedly huge ones (i.e. pound and falcons upB) while leave a lot others alone (diddy, ness, lucas, fox, falco, etc). I think a lot are at the appropriate snap distance, but some are just too mammoth. Isolating and fixing those I think should be the goal rather than applying a universal change.

An ideal choice would be to have a char specific one where we have the option to scale the size of their sweetspot, but hey we can dream, can't we?

 

[goodoldganon]

I tend to side with ganon a bit more in that I think it should be used to fix the retardedly huge ones (i.e. pound and falcons upB) while leave a lot others alone (diddy, ness, lucas, fox, falco, etc). I think a lot are at the appropriate snap distance, but some are just too mammoth. Isolating and fixing those I think should be the goal rather than applying a universal change.

An ideal choice would be to have a char specific one where we have the option to scale the size of their sweetspot, but hey we can dream, can't we?

I'm only for nerfing Falcon's Up-B sweetspot if we can fix that momentum BS on it.

 

[kupo15]

I tend to side with ganon a bit more in that I think it should be used to fix the retardedly huge ones (i.e. pound and falcons upB) while leave a lot others alone (diddy, ness, lucas, fox, falco, etc). I think a lot are at the appropriate snap distance, but some are just too mammoth. Isolating and fixing those I think should be the goal rather than applying a universal change.

An ideal choice would be to have a char specific one where we have the option to scale the size of their sweetspot, but hey we can dream, can't we?

But gog doesn't want things to be "homogenized." What you considered ******** huge is considered fine by him. I'm all for making the retardedly huge ones like the rest and not for making the crap ones even worse (such as zelda). But how we decide which ones have it is where we differ. Also, we must keep in mind that some characters auto sweetspot and zair auto sweet spots

I guess I am going to have to show off more characters. Falco is pretty huge also not to mention we have an auto sweet spot side bs which should be plenty.

First, I think the sweetspotting from hitting a shield or opponent is fine. The edgeguarder has almost every advantage in the situation. Letting your opponent sweetspot the edge seems like a reasonable punishment for ****ing an edgeguard up.

Ok so now you are telling me how to edgeguard? How is shielding your failed sweet spot then punishing taboo? Sweet spotting is a skill done by the player coming back and should not be based on the edge guarder. Your goal is to sweet spot and if you fail to sweet spot, your opponent should have the window to punish that mistake by whatever means necessary. Shielding then punishing or getting hit than punishing is no exception to the rule and in doing so, I am certainly not letting you go and allowing you to sweet spot by shielding your up b. Adding an arbitrary hurdle to overcome when your opponent messes up is not good coming from a competitive standpoint.

ASL is having the game recover for you. Having a large grab range isn't having the game recover for you, its giving the recoverer (or recoveree, whatever we call it ) more options when Brawl gives the edgeguarder even more options.

How does a large grab range give the edge guarder more options when it makes returning so easy? It sounds like its arbitrarily helping out the person that is supposed to be at the a disadvantage and limiting the options of the edge guarder at the same time. Also, any added edge guarding options you claim the edge guarder is getting from NASL is taken away when you are arbitrarily limited as to how to defend (ie: not being able to shield punish or purposely get hit punished)

The rest of your post

So basically, you are saying that there is nothing wrong with auto sweet spotting mechanic at all either. You might as well make an argument that says that we should remove the NASL code and IIRC, you were against NASL. Essentially, this is the same problem as powershielding. Its too easy and you snap by accident when you really shouldn't have.

Our job is to make a great game for the high end competitive players, not the noobs that can't grasp the concept of having skill for returning. You have the tools you need to return. Grabbing the ledge, reverse grabbing, auto sweet spotting side bs (seriously, are you reading this?), non fatal air dodges, DI, flying (if applicable) ledge teching (if we get it), your bag of tricks. You have plenty of options to return. These options are what you get to help you in your disadvantaged state. Making the task of returning by giving the player such a large percent of error removes depth and skill from the game when you have all the tools you need to return.

EDIT: For the "bad" recoveries, I'd rather boost their distance and make the ledge harder to preserve the skill in recovering instead of keeping the small up b range and compensating it with a huge ledge snap

 

[goodoldganon]

I guess I am going to have to show off more characters. Falco is pretty huge also not to mention we have an auto sweet spot side bs which should be plenty.

Falco's is sweetspot range is fine. He sits out their charging his Up-B for a good 2-3 seconds. If you can't time the edgehog or go out and mess him up then he should deserve to come back.

Ok so now you are telling me how to edgeguard? How is shielding your failed sweet spot then punishing taboo? Sweet spotting is a skill done by the player coming back and should not be based on the edge guarder. Your goal is to sweet spot and if you fail to sweet spot, your opponent should have the window to punish that mistake by whatever means necessary. Shielding then punishing or getting hit than punishing is no exception to the rule and in doing so, I am certainly not letting you go and allowing you to sweet spot by shielding your up b. Adding an arbitrary hurdle to overcome when your opponent messes up is not good coming from a competitive standpoint.

My experience is this hasn't been a problem. I see a lot of DK, Bowser, and Samus in my group and they take the most advantage of this, and I still don't see a problem. Which recoveries are abuseable that these characters have a significantly easier chance to sweetspot? Most recovery moves in the game has a dead zone. A spot where you can attack through. If it doesn't then it can either be bull powered through or it's a distinct advantage of the character. (Meta's Up-B is an example of a safe recovery. He isn't meant to be gimped.) I'm not really gonna argue this point much because it's not a big deal one way or the other. I always thought it was a nifty side effect of the code.

How does a large grab range give the edge guarder more options when it makes returning so easy? It sounds like its arbitrarily helping out the person that is supposed to be at the a disadvantage and limiting the options of the edge guarder at the same time. Also, any added edge guarding options you claim the edge guarder is getting from NASL is taken away when you are arbitrarily limited as to how to defend (ie: not being able to shield punish or purposely get hit punished)

I must have not made my point clear. Sorry, I can't expect you to read my mind. By extra options I mean in comparison to 64 and Melee. Only a select few characters had any form of the off the stage game in those games. In Brawl, every character can chase off the stage. It's something I don't see enough people do. That is the basis of my entire argument.

I don't mind that recovering is significantly easier then in any other Smash games. I'm not arguing that. Everything you had listed proves it. What I'm arguing is that it still takes skill to recover and that people don't seem to ever want to chase. I feel many people want to just stay on the edge and guard from there. It's safer and easier.

So basically, you are saying that there is nothing wrong with auto sweet spotting mechanic at all either. You might as well make an argument that says that we should remove the NASL code and IIRC, you were against NASL.

I specifically said why NASL is different then this. I was against it at first because I felt it would hurt the off the stage game. It sort of does, but there is no denying the huge benefit it makes to the on the stage edge game as well as eliminating planking and stalling. I openly admitted I was wrong with my fist perception of the code.

Our job is to make a great game for the high end competitive players, not the noobs that can't grasp the concept of having skill for returning. You have the tools you need to return. Grabbing the ledge, reverse grabbing, auto sweet spotting side bs (seriously, are you reading this?), non fatal air dodges, DI, flying (if applicable) ledge teching (if we get it), your bag of tricks. You have plenty of options to return. These options are what you get to help you in your disadvantaged state. Making the task of returning by giving the player such a large percent of error removes depth and skill from the game when you have all the tools you need to return.

Persoanlly, I'd argue that forcing people to chose between chasing or staying on the stage adds more depth to the game. If they recover closer they will sweetspot earlier, but leave themselves open to get poked from someone on the stage (Marth's D-tilt or Ike's Eruption). If they try to take full advantage of their grab range then they open themselves up to edgehogging and gimping. In my eyes, knocking someone off the stage in Melee and 64 was a free card. I guess I feel that Brawl's edge game just has more depth.


Feel free to comment on my arguments, I did my best to make them as clear as possible this time. Sometimes I just don't write clearly enough. That being said, let's wait and see if this code is possible. If it is possible I'm totally against having 1 set grab range, but I'm willing to test individual grab ranges. I want to get back to Pikmin 2 now. KKTHXBYE

 

[kupo15]

I did some edits that you missed btw.

What I'm arguing is that it still takes skill to recover and that people don't seem to ever want to chase. I feel many people want to just stay on the edge and guard from there. It's safer and easier.

You can't assume that people don't ever want to chase. Even if some people's style is to not chase, you can't force them to one form of edge guarding. Even with melee's smaller grabbing range, you couldn't effectively edgeguard by just sitting on the stage and waiting in all situations.

My experience is this hasn't been a problem. I see a lot of DK, Bowser, and Samus in my group and they take the most advantage of this, and I still don't see a problem. Which recoveries are abuseable that these characters have a significantly easier chance to sweetspot? Most recovery moves in the game has a dead zone. A spot where you can attack through. If it doesn't then it can either be bull powered through or it's a distinct advantage of the character. (Meta's Up-B is an example of a safe recovery. He isn't meant to be gimped.) I'm not really gonna argue this point much because it's not a big deal one way or the other. I always thought it was a nifty side effect of the code.

I already explained how this is a bad side effect and negates the point of having NASL code to begin with. You already have one auto sweet spot, why should you get a second one due to the fact that it doesn't allow for all types of edge guarding?

I specifically said why NASL is different then this. I was against it at first because I felt it would hurt the off the stage game. It sort of does, but there is no denying the huge benefit it makes to the on the stage edge game as well as eliminating planking and stalling. I openly admitted I was wrong with my fist perception of the code.

Well, if you think a smaller grab range and NASL hurts the offstage game, then how do you explain this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y8rQ_0zNIg

Melee's ledges were even harsher yet the offstage game was still there. Suddenly making the grab ranges smaller but not as small as melee won't change this fact when there are more options on the ledge than melee. In fact, I find that a smaller ledge helps the off stage game more because you can be fancy or have more confidence with being risky off stage when you don't have stupid random auto sweet spots and ridiculous ledge grabbing ranges to screw you over.

Persoanlly, I'd argue that forcing people to chose between chasing or staying on the stage adds more depth to the game. If they recover closer they will sweetspot earlier, but leave themselves open to get poked from someone on the stage (Marth's D-tilt or Ike's Eruption). If they try to take full advantage of their grab range then they open themselves up to edgehogging and gimping. In my eyes, knocking someone off the stage in Melee and 64 was a free card. I guess I feel that Brawl's edge game just has more depth.

Yes the opponent does the forcing, not the mechanic. Even by taking the outragous ledge grabs and normalizing them, its still up to what the opponent does that allows you to decide how to edge guard.

EDIT: Btw, this ledge range issue has to do with B moves extending the natural range of the ledge. So normal jump grabbing shouldn't be affected I don't think.