Le THieN's Match-Up Newsflash: Marth vs. Diddy is Even

[pastaboy]

i guess wario right now isnt a big threat, but i definitly see wario being the next "peach" in beign a hard counter for diddy
lol hanson you find fighting/watching warios boring but you love fighting R.O.B's thats obsurd.

 

[ADHD]

Hanson...i 3 stocked 3000's D3 at Pnt this saturday(no swat since ride bailed)...It was amazing i could have made a combo video with that vid lol.

**** snake. If he camps i just don't understand how diddy can win. Its so frustrating.

I beat anti in a MM this weekend Idk, it just takes a slight change of playstyle. I'm coming for you Candy.

 

[Gnes]

I beat anti in a MM this weekend Idk, it just takes a slight change of playstyle. I'm coming for you Candy.

Wow u finally beat Anti...i heard he usually beats u....we must discuss at a later time.

 

[Le_THieN]

@ Gness: I forgot 3K even played D3. Gooooooood ****. =)

@ Pasta: Actually, I forgot about your boy Gi; he was pretty aggressive and fast-paced, and I really enjoyed playing against him. ROBs are easily pressured into compromising positions with little or no options, so it usually turns into a Combo Video Highlight Reel for me after that. Which I love. Wario is no fun because all he has to do at the moment is weave through the air with air dodges, and you can't really do too much to contain this.

@ ADHD: Is your "slight change in play-style" also known as, "pick Battlefield and jump on the platforms for eight minutes until Snake approaches"?

LOL.

 

[chimpact]

Wario could easily be diddy's worst matchup. theoretically all he has to do is fair off stage or punish the ending lag of our Side B with farts and an easy stock goes away at 80%. It's really hard to KO wario unless you make him make a mistake. he just stays in the air for so long it's annoying.

 

[pastaboy]

i think the monkey flip kick cancels the fart.

 

[Gnes]

Wario could easily be diddy's worst matchup. theoretically all he has to do is fair off stage or punish the ending lag of our Side B with farts and an easy stock goes away at 80%. It's really hard to KO wario unless you make him make a mistake. he just stays in the air for so long it's annoying.

Ugh..."theoretically all metaknight has to do is dair off stage or punish the ending lag of our side B with [insert random meta move] and an easy stock goes away at [insert any percent]"

Like what i did there .

But seriously wario's annoying but firstly If ur that scared of fart just run the timer from 1min-2min until his fart is fully charged. Now it shouldnt be any suprises. Also diddy ***** wario on the ground. Nowhere near diddy's worst matchup.

Hanson, he told me something different. But he could have just chosen not to put in that part...LOL.

 

[thumbswayup]

Since this thread has been derailed (again) and no one seems to have any blatant vocal objections about the Marth match-up possibly being even, I'm going to go ahead and strike up some more discussion and controversy with what I believe to be Diddy Kong's five current worst match-ups. I base these claims on how difficult I personally find a match-up to be, as well as how irritated and frustrated I get. The consensus that the general public has established as the ever-beloved match-up ratios have absolutely no bearing on my opinion.

1. Peach
   
   This is mostly self-explanatory if you have been following my video thread at all. With the way that she is currently being played by KOS-MOS, she has entered a scant inner circle of characters in the game that can force Diddy into a semi-permanent defensive posture for an entire set. Her aerial attacks are all mostly fast, lagless, and generally have higher priority than Diddy's, and her distinct ability to zone the ground and air space she occupies simultaneously via Float.
   
   KM's Peach has winning records over six different Diddy Kong players from around the country. This translates to roughly being 85-9 in sheer numbers. LOL.
   
   
2. Snake
   
   Of all of these difficult match-ups, this is the one that I feel I know the best, due to my sheer exposure to a litany of play-styles over the last year. Snake is arguably the only character in the game who effectively camp long-range in order to force approaches from most of the cast, while at the same time discouraging engagement with his generally superior close-quarters contact game.
   
   A Snake player that correctly balances both these sensibilities becomes the ultimate fortress - not only are you being forced to make initial contact, but you are also pressured into doing so in way that he can dictate and punish with his high-priority ground attacks. To make dire matters worse, Snake is one of the heaviest characters in the game; proper DI can increase his stock longevity by at least twofold. These are all disadvantages that Diddys everywhere will be forced to sidestep in order to make a gratingly irritating match-up somewhat doable.
   
   
3. Wario
   
   Wario is actually an amazing character who is an interesting amalgam of high mobility, generally fast attacks and high KO capability. His eccentric move set let's him seamlessly weave in and out of a powerful mix-up of defensive and offensive options, often making it something of a chore to zone him at all. He has the potential of being one of the most unique and dynamic characters in the game, and is very worthy of a tier list promotion that he is on the cusp of receiving by the time v3.0 rolls around.
   
   Unfortunately, this is not how top players have decided to develop his meta-game.
   
   Wario is probably, hands down, the most tedious, mind-****ingly annoying character of all of Diddy's match-ups. Whether or not I walk away with the victory in this match-up is usually a coin flip, but I will always unmistakably loathe the sheer amount of boredom that I am stricken with every time I have to deal with him.
   
   Someone, anyone out there with a set of balls and a penchant for excitement, pleeeease rewrite his meta-game.
   
   
4. Toon Link
   
   This match-up makes me sad because I still have no experience here, despite having played Toon Link twice in tournament. I only get to see my boy Santi maybe once or twice on a bi-monthly basis, and he still usually beats the pants off of me. This, besides the Peach match-up, will probably feature minority consensus, as the only reason I consider it tough is because I still have no idea what to do. I will be reviewing Gness/Jerm and NL/Jash videos until something clicks.
   
   
5. Lucario
   
   Lucario boasts a great combination of fast, useful tilts, powerful smashes, and an aerial superiority paralleled by only a scant handful of others; many of these options' range and priority are augmented by the fact that they are disjointed attacks. To exacerbate matters, Aura damage stackers increase his capacity for KOs which is proportionate to the damage he accrues. This also has the nice added bonus effect of voiding out any potential issues he may have with move decay otherwise. Proper DI manipulates his heavier-than-normal stature and allows him to live to ridiculous, confidence-shattering percentages, which is pretty much the worst type of Lucario to deal with under any circumstances.
   
   He also has deceivingly large grab ranges on many of his aerial attacks, has a decently useful glide-toss and the ability to reverse single dribble.
   
   I'm convinced that if Lucario had some sort of hit box on Extreme Speed, he would instantly become one of the most unstoppable forces in competitive play.

Thoughts? What are your personal worst Top 5 match-ups?

I am astounded that you do not have Luigi on there. It's blatantly obvious that he ***** the face off Diddy. I agree with Peach and Wario being very bad matchups for Diddy. For Wario, you have to read his movement in the air perfectly to win. It also helps to get a grab release spike in or two. Lucario is an enfuriating matchup if he camps and rolls. It's surprisingly hard to punish. After playing Jash last week, I hate TL even more. The character is able to run away and spam projectiles into combos at all times and it's always effective.

 

[Palpi]

Yeah I could've sworn that Luigi was a terrible match up, maybe diddy's worst match up.

 

[thumbswayup]

Yeah I could've sworn that Luigi was a terrible match up, maybe diddy's worst match up.

It 100% is. Without a doubt.

 

[ADHD]

Okay, the list IMO of hardest matchups:

1) Luigi
2) Marth
3)Peach
4) Falco
5) Snake/DDD/Olimar
6) Metaknightttt

 

[pastaboy]

imo its 50:50 luigi, we **** him just as bad as he ***** us, his air speed is trash, easy gimps

 

[chimpact]

Ugh..."theoretically all metaknight has to do is dair off stage or punish the ending lag of our side B with [insert random meta move] and an easy stock goes away at [insert any percent]"

Like what i did there .

But seriously wario's annoying but firstly If ur that scared of fart just run the timer from 1min-2min until his fart is fully charged. Now it shouldnt be any suprises. Also diddy ***** wario on the ground. Nowhere near diddy's worst matchup.

Hanson, he told me something different. But he could have just chosen not to put in that part...LOL.

Yea I get what you saying, but wario has better air speed and can get the fair off much quicker and meta's have bad air speed so they have to worry about dhgr.

The thing about running away til the fart gets charged is smart. thanks.

 

[Ingulit]

Yea I get what you saying, but wario has better air speed and can get the fair off much quicker and meta's have bad air speed so they have to worry about dhgr.

NO

Meta Knight has range and priority on both is D-Air and priority on his N-Air, both of which will intercept an expected Diddy Hump. If you're the one getting gimped, it's near impossible to get one off vs a Meta Knight who sees it coming. It's just plain dangerous to get that close to him off-stage, anyway :\

The only time that a DHGR should work on Meta Knight imo is on accident. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my experience)

 

[ADHD]

^^^ Nah, you can still occasionally catch them with it it's just that their smart enough that it will never kill them like it maybe did the first two times lol

Use fair to recover and aerial him away to mix it up. Just recover differently each time depending on what he's doing and you'll be fine. But in general, you should just barrel away from the stage if you feel you're going to get ****ed.

 

[Player-1]

Okay, the list IMO of hardest matchups:

1) Luigi
2) Marth
3)Peach
4) Falco
5) Snake/DDD/Olimar
6) Metaknightttt

My list:
1. Luigi
2. Peach
3. Marth
4. Olimar
5. Wario
6. Falco/Snake

 

[tocador]

My list:
1.Peach
2.Luigi
3.Marth

The rest is kinda the same people ussually post.

I think peach is tougher then Luigi, can at least we can shut down one part of luigis game, the air, but with peach, we just have to hope for that mistake ><, or force them to ground =D!

 

[Ingulit]

My list:
1. Luigi
2. Peach
3. Marth
4. Olimar
5. Wario
6. Falco/Snake

Personally, I'd throw Meta Knight in there somewhere simply because I suck, but otherwise this seams very reasonable. MAYBE I'd swap Marth and Peach, but that's until I face a good Peach player. I freaking hate Wario as Diddy :x

EDIT: I would like to re-name this thread "Diddy Kong-Related Discussion Thread that happens to have Le THieN Videos"

EDIT 2: We should make a thread like that unless we just want this thread to continue to be that.

EDIT 3: **** it I'm making it and seeing if it works.

EDIT 4: I'm scared to post it without being called a n00b so if anyone else does I want it to be known that I wanted to first

 

[Le_THieN]

I am astounded that you do not have Luigi on there. It's blatantly obvious that he ***** the face off Diddy. I agree with Peach and Wario being very bad matchups for Diddy. For Wario, you have to read his movement in the air perfectly to win. It also helps to get a grab release spike in or two. Lucario is an enfuriating matchup if he camps and rolls. It's surprisingly hard to punish. After playing Jash last week, I hate TL even more. The character is able to run away and spam projectiles into combos at all times and it's always effective.

Whether or not you feel like Luigi is Diddy's worst match-up, which I understand many of you do, is pure opinion. I recognize that my outlook doesn't always echo popular consensus, but that is kind of why we're having this mini-discussion on the matter in the first place.

As far as Luigi goes, I personally feel that the match-up is even. I won't do a full-blown analysis, but here are the big things:

• Aside from his somewhat mediocre fireball, Luigi has absolutely no way to reliably zone you from mid-range.
  
  
• Although Luigi has insane priority on virtually all of his attacks, he has p*ss-poor horizontal aerial movement. Everything that he does in the air is telegraphed, and you can almost always expect him to cover the almost nonexistent cool-down on his F-air or D-air immediately with N-air's instant start-up, or some sort of lame air-dodge mind game. Most people who face Luigi always feel the urge to try to drop their shield and attack him in-between aerials, which, of course, never works. Your solution? - Shield everything and punish his landing lag.
  
  
• Contrary to popular belief, most characters (including Diddy) have frame advantage while Luigi attempts to jab-cancel after the first jab. Jab him back to space him away, or jump or roll away to avoid his Super Jump Punch, D-tilt, or whatever else he decides to throw at you.
  
  
• His main approach (from the air) is not very reliable if it is baited. You are not dealing with Peach's dual zoning, or even Marth's F-air. What you will see most of the time if you drop the ball and allow him to get that close to you is D-air > N-air, which is not safe against your shield at all.
  
  
• It is incredibly obvious when Luigi's go-to kill move, F-smash, will be attempted. If you are around 75-80%, you can pretty much expect him to be setting up for this move in some way. Most of the time, it will be angled upward in order to slightly reduce start-up and cool-down (from how it's been explained to me, at least). There is absolutely no reason for you to approach him, much less be within three character lengths of him, while you are hovering around critical KO percents. Just. Run. Away. You will be shocked at how effective and annoying this tactic is.
  
  
• By contrast, you have many moves that are surprisingly safe against Luigi's shield, including charged smashes. Luigi's unusual low traction physics will slide him safely outside of his grab or attacking range. This is important in exploiting Luigi's lack of mid-range options, and keeping him outside.

Diddy Kong has more resources at his disposal that allow him to out-space, out-zone, outrun and out-gay Luigi in almost every way imaginable. Hit-and-run is especially effective against him due to his generally slow movements, as it also takes advantage of his lack of tools to fall back on in order to compete with our ability to zone. If you manage to force Luigi to approach the majority of the time, there ought to be nothing surprising about the rest of the match.

All of the tactics that I've recently been trying to develop against Peach work wonders in the Marth match-up, and are laughably even more effective against Luigi, who I believe to have worse tactical resources than Marth in almost every way (namely range and ability to close distance). The only thing he has on Marth is his propensity for wildly early KOs, but these are generally not difficult to avoid if you just retreat during kill percentages.

Your typical Diddy game has to be drastically readjusted against Luigi, admittedly. I take to the air a great deal more in this match-up and focus on tacking on damage via bait and punishment as opposed to virtually nonexistent banana combos. Banana peels are still crucial in the match-up to me in order to set up specific traps and encroach on Luigi's spacing.

Incidentally, the way I play against Luigi works even better on Kirby, Jigglypuff and Mario. Mario in particular gets ***** even harder once you permanently trap him at mid-range. The entire mid-range concept grew out of the idea of, "Why even deal with trying to punish another character's slew of lagless, high-priority attacks if I just simply avoid being in that situation in the first place?" I'm still working out the kinks to my execution in the Peach match-up, but virtually all the characters I've mentioned here lack Peach's sheer attack speed and Float ability, so the tactic works exceptionally well against the rest of those guys.

When NinjaLink was giving me advice on the Peach match-up, the one thing that hit home with me more than anything else was, "Don't get D-aired." It simple and stupidly obvious and obnoxiously difficult against Peach in particular, but what if you applied that idea against other characters?

Seriously, guys.

Just.

Run.

Away.

I've never had so much fun faking helplessness in my life.

EDIT: Okay, so this ended up being a full-blown match-up analysis anyway. I hate you all.

 

[pastaboy]

dont forget that one of the main defenses in this game is shield grabbing... luigi forget about it.

 

[SilverDoc~]

Are you guys insane??????

Kirby is easily one of diddys hardest matchups, its known, its a fact, even Player1 told me himself he thinks kirby is ridiculously hard depending on the kirby.

 

[thumbswayup]

Kirby is definitely a hard matchup.

 

[pastaboy]

lol kirby isnt that hard of a match up, even id say, you just have to camp, and not jump of the stage foolishly.

 

[Player-1]

Are you guys insane??????

Kirby is easily one of diddys hardest matchups, its known, its a fact, even Player1 told me himself he thinks kirby is ridiculously hard depending on the kirby.

uhhh..I haven't talked to you in forever so IDK when you heard that, sand I don't even remember saying that, but I do think Kirby is a hard matchup but definitely not one of his worst

 

[SilverDoc~]

uhhh..I haven't talked to you in forever so IDK when you heard that, sand I don't even remember saying that, but I do think Kirby is a hard matchup but definitely not one of his worst

You told me that when I actually used to go to WT clan chat.

You said an air campy wario and kirby are diddys hardest matchups, you said that about 5 months ago.

 

[Ingulit]

You told me that when I actually used to go to WT clan chat.

You said an air campy wario and kirby are diddys hardest matchups, you said that about 5 months ago.

Key words^

~Times, they are a changin'...

 

[Le_THieN]

No, n00bz. Kirby ain't ****.

 

[fource]

Kirby isn't that bad. I played 8-Bit a couple times at No Koast. He played really well, but the match-up was not that difficult. He can kill pretty early but Diddy just racks damage up faster.
I don't think Kirby has a huge advantage if any at all.

 

[bludhoundz]

So...

I'm surprised Pierce or Steel haven't said anything about the title. Maybe direct the Marth boards to Thien's post?

 

[Le_THieN]

Rain or shine, it doesn't matter - high-level Marths aren't **** to me.

 

[Gnes]

Rain or shine, it doesn't matter - high-level *insert character* arent **** to me.

 

[Le_THieN]

LOL. Gness, I played DPhat's Marth only once this past weekend. I destroyed him for almost three stocks straight, and I had him racked up to 140% by the time he got me down to one stock. I tried to do something fancy by U-throwing a banana peel over the ledge when he was recovering, and he D-air spiked me at 0% when I ledge-hopped.

I prematurely activated my rocket barrels, and the accelerated momentum carried me to my doom as I tried to milk enough a charge to get back to the stage.

...

LOL.

Other than that, I'm 100% certain I'll never lose to Marth in tournament ever again, haha.

I also played Po's Luigi rather extensively this weekend, and was consistently one- and two-stocking him, maybe dropping two or three matches over the course of the whole series. The one thing I can say for certain is that there is absolutely no reason to ever approach Luigi. I'm sure you know where the rest is going. =)

 

[BoRn]

Marth wasn a challege for me but id normally win untill i played kosmos... After some of the tips thein gave me it made the match up easier but pretty dull... Ide rather have fun and lose then get bored of the game. Atleast to some extent.

 

[Gnes]

the One Thing I Can Say For Certain Is That There Is absolutely No Reason To Ever Approach Luigi. I'm Sure You Know Where The Rest Is Going. =)

Okay Adhd >.>

 

[ADHD]

Nah, you gotta approach luigi for some reason. I tried super camping and it didn't work.

 

[Diddyknight]

Nah, you gotta approach luigi for some reason. I tried super camping and it didn't work.

LOL


approaching does work but depending onn how you do it xD

 

[Le_THieN]

Nah, you gotta approach luigi for some reason. I tried super camping and it didn't work.

A few things:

1. I didn't really see any "super-camping" at all on your part in your second set against Atomsk's Luigi. It really just seemed like reckless rush-down for the most part, which was absolutely not safe at all.
   
   
2. I really don't see how Diddy can't camp Luigi. Luigi has nonexistent range on almost all his moves, and he can only apply mid-range pressure with his fireball. The only reason this is only mildly effective on occasion is because the slow horizontal movement of his fireballs can actually cover up almost the entire cool-down animation at maximum distance.
   
   Even at that, what can Luigi possibly do to safely follow up once the fireball connects? We have already established that this is literally his only safe and ranged move, and only in certain situations at that. And on top of all that, it's nothing that a glide toss or even a simple running power shield can't get around most of the time.
   
   
3. Speaking of which, your ability to apply pressure more effectively from longer distances with glide-tossing should always force an approach of some sort, should the banana peel not successfully connect.
   
   
4. Luigi's aerial approaches, while not 100% safe, are a great deal more reliable than any of Diddy's non-banana approaches. Why would Luigi not approach? He puts himself at an instant positional disadvantage on stage the moment he moves outside of fireball range.

This is my take on that particular aspect of the match-up, at least.

 

[ADHD]

le thien i super camped in the first set which wasn't recorded. I literally just sat there the entire match. I'll try running away though if it's vs boss lmao.

 

[Le_THieN]

le thien i super camped in the first set which wasn't recorded. I literally just sat there the entire match. I'll try running away though if it's vs boss lmao.

LOL. If you only lost that first set 2-3, it would seem the actual case at hand is that "super-camping" wasn't enough to notch you the set victory, as opposed to it being completely useless. =)

I'm not even suggesting that super-camping is the key to this match-up, anyway.

 

[pastaboy]

you cant camp luigi, dont do it. short hopped dairs r great for catching and braking peanuts. Luigi tornado is ridculously fast!. if hes mid range and u pluck a banana, he can tornado to you and hit you before you can even catch it. The tornado and jabs are one of luigis best set ups.