Le Lazy Lurking Link's Listen/Laugh Lounge ♪~ (^ 。^=)

escro · Mar 20, 2012

D= dont say boomerang sucks, it's one of link's better projectiles (well he has only 3 but w/e)

-LzR- · Mar 20, 2012

Arrows are actually useful, bombs are amazing and boomerang barely does anything except for some once in a lifetime combovideo moments.

escro · Mar 20, 2012

i think i recall this exact debate occuring a few pages back in this thread.
general consensus was that rang was more "useful" than arrows.
but the verdict was that if we dont use all three we get screwed

Rizen · Mar 20, 2012

Link's boomerang is very useful!

-LzR- said:
LolIzaw

Yes I know all the techniques and stuff with with Link and I am a pretty competent player myself. I just still haven't figured out like why the hell would I ever used boomerang since it sucks and how could we attack OoS.

Link's boomerang is one of the more useful range attacks in the game. I would say it's about equal to Wolf's laser and only because that has transcendent priority. Here's why the 'rang is useful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jFjvJWqrTI
Also...
<3 wind gimps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GfY83KtecUk#t=62s
Boomerang is why Link out-camps Snake
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd5GYvHEQlE

escro said:
i think i recall this exact debate occuring a few pages back in this thread.
general consensus was that rang was more "useful" than arrows.
but the verdict was that if we dont use all three we get screwed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlEnDZMTjqg
Bombs are without a doubt Link's best range attack, though.

OoS
Link doesn't have any get out of jail free OoS moves. OoS is one of his weak points. There's grab if the opponent's in the ending lag of a move, the tether has good reach and can connect even with shield pushback; if they dodge it Link will feel pain, 85-95 frames until IASA. I like OoS backwards SH>Zair because it's easy (keep holding shield>SH>press attack) and covers rush punishes. OoS jump>Nair starts frame 6, attacks all around Link's Legs and torso and landing cancels making it generally the best OoS.
Link's rolls suck but are occasionally the best choice. Link does have a great spotdodge (frames 1-20 intangible, ends frame 25), like Yoshis it has slightly less lag to spotdodge and not shield after than to shield drop(7 frames lag, I think?). Jab and Dsmash both start frame 6 and are Link's fastest shield drop attacks: shield drop attack starts frame 13, spotdodge attack starts frame 11.
There's also footstool bombing, see my previous post.
OoS SpinAttack punishes spotdodges but has tons of lag if shielded once (the rest of the attack won't hit).

Scabe · Mar 20, 2012

I like boomerang a lot, I remember there's a lot of stuff you can when the gale boomerang returns. When it returns there's some air on it that pushes you slightly in. There's lots of stuff where you hit them into the gale return and the opponent will be drawn back in and you can use this to your advantage. There's stuff like you can hit with the two hits of forward smash at mid percents which is something you wouldn't be able to do normally.

Dtilt was a really cool one, it would set you up for a jab lock. I recall that it worked pretty well up to the high percents. Same thing works for Utilt when you're facing away from the opponent.

I wish I made a video of all this.

It's hard to pull off in a real match, I don't think I've ever really done it but it's pretty cool to experiment with it in training mode.

A good Link player should be trying to utilize everything that he has.

BryE · Mar 20, 2012

Scabe said:
I wish I made a video of all this.

It's hard to pull off in a real match, I don't think I've ever really done it but it's pretty cool to experiment with it in training mode.

Lol, I actually did a few bombstool combos against several friends of mine. I frigging love them.

Also I pulled my first consistent jab lock. :D!

-LzR- · Mar 22, 2012

The Boomerang overall is just very gimmicky. It seems to have no real value except very rare moments. I would gladly have it do a lot of damage instead of a dumb wind mechanic.

BryE · Mar 22, 2012

-LzR- said:
The Boomerang overall is just very gimmicky. It seems to have no real value except very rare moments. I would gladly have it do a lot of damage instead of a dumb wind mechanic.

Gimmicky, yes. But it is very reliable.

Even though Melee Link's boomerang dealt 16% damage at close range and 7% far range, I still feel that Link's boomerang in Brawl is very useful. It easily ***** Snake's grenades since the wind mechanic blows them away. Not only that but you can use it for Gale Return setups.

As in Melee, when the boomerang returned it still hits on impact. So it can disrupt opponent's jabs/throws (which is a good thing too). But I still feel that Link's boomerang in Brawl has more potential.

Huggles828 · Mar 22, 2012

-LzR- said:
I would gladly have [the boomerang] do a lot of damage instead of a dumb wind mechanic.

Yep.

The wind effect is really gimmicky, and sure you can use it, but the boomerang would just flat out be better if it was like the old boomerang and did damage on the way back. If you're spending time crafting a nasty wind effect combo or something you're almost certainly giving up a million better options you could be doing. It's still a pretty good projectile though. It's another thing your opponent has to deal with to get to you. It's good out of short hops to increase your mobility while using it, or dashing and immediately throwing it behind you to hit enemies that try pursuing you.

Arrows have poor hitstun and are laggy (even with arrow cancelling) which really hurts their usefulness, and unlike Toon Link's, which are slow and present an obstacle that sticks around for a few seconds, Link's arrows move really fast, which is actually detrimental and limits their usefulness. Not saying they're worthless, but arrows are definitely the least useful of the three projectiles.

Rizen · Mar 22, 2012

Huggles828 said:
Yep.

The wind effect is really gimmicky, and sure you can use it, but the boomerang would just flat out be better if it was like the old boomerang and did damage on the way back. If you're spending time crafting a nasty wind effect combo or something you're almost certainly giving up a million better options you could be doing. It's still a pretty good projectile though. It's another thing your opponent has to deal with to get to you. It's good out of short hops to increase your mobility while using it, or dashing and immediately throwing it behind you to hit enemies that try pursuing you.

Link got the raw deal in Brawl and so did his boomerang, it's much laggier, slower in movement, worse range, worse priority and less damage. It's important to take all this into consideration. If Link got a Gale Boomerang in Brawl that wasn't nerfed the potential would be greatly increased for the wind too.
Wind can be a great spacing tool and reliable for gimps in the right setups. When I have time I'll fish out a post of wind push gimps I made. Combos are a small element of what wind can do. The wind is good for spacing/gimps and Link can stop reflected wind with attacks, no other character can stop wind with attacks. So it's great vs reflectors if used right.
But all this talk about the returning boomerang has distracted from its more common uses.
Quoted from a distant past:
Boomerang throws that are tilted, ground bounced, and strait have the same horizontal range. Tilted throws go the farthest because of horizontal and vertical distance.
Smashed boomerang reach (top to bottom) up angled, down bounced, forward throw:

Inputting angles that are in between the notches on the hole around the control stick will result in shallower throw angles. The steepness of slopes in stages will influence the bounce as long as a strait vertical barrier isn’t hit. The boomerang will travel down as far as it can travel up from the plane where Link throws it if nothing gets in the way (not shown).
______________________________
The boomerang can cover a huge potential area in front of Link and has good hitstun. Even seriously nerfed, it is great for spacing when extending too.
The hitstun's good because Link needs projectiles to creating openings for his swordplay.
And the 'rang has a 50%trip rate which makes it setup locks frequently. Link would have a much harder time locking opponents without his boomerang; that alone makes it a useful projectile.

Blacknight99923 · Mar 22, 2012

Link is amazing

Rizen · Mar 22, 2012

...but sloooooooooooooooooooooww with bad mobility

Huggles828 · Mar 22, 2012

Blacknight99923 said:
Link is amazing

My favorite is when he uses giant hammers to crush dragons' faces in.

Blacknight99923 · Mar 23, 2012

Rizen said:
...but sloooooooooooooooooooooww with bad mobility

WTF!

link has great mobility.

For example he falls really fast.

Scabe · Mar 23, 2012

\Just watch a random vid of any top player Link and you'll see that they use Boomerang quite a lot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyu4nJIca6I.

-LzR- · Mar 23, 2012

Of course they use, it's not like Link is blessed with options and the first part of the boomerang is decent, but when it returns, it becomes a combovideo gimmick that never works.

Rizen · Mar 23, 2012

"never works"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GfY83KtecUk#t=63s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sijv_-r6jH8#t=150s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CafmTIL3OUA#t=27s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_QvrPS80bD8#t=210s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uDlxfG6iyO0#t=50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4vmPyGQTT6s#t=260s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HBoCcNRCH1g#t=111s

-LzR- · Mar 23, 2012

See the pattern here? They are all WIFI!

BryE · Mar 23, 2012

All offline matches

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GqJ7W9-jBo#t=28s (Positioned Fox where I wanted him to get an easy gimp)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs9v4va_SCI#t=2m45s (Positoned Snake near the ledge during footstool)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2h5mzfugBc#t=14s (Nearly got a free gimp but I flubbed up the Zair reset ledge grab.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvIpbX7ScGg#t=1m39s (Double Side Smash against DDD)

I would have more matches if I played Brawl more and actually took it seriously, but I don't. lol Just because his boomerang is worse in Brawl doesn't mean that it's still not effective. It's one of his best projectiles if you know how to use it correctly.

Just because it works online doesn't mean it's not gonna work offline. lol

-LzR- · Mar 23, 2012

The boomerang allows you to do things that you could have done some other way except it's a lot harder to pull off and isn't worth the trouble. I would love to have TLs boomerang instead. Damage > gimmicks.

Huggles828 · Mar 23, 2012

This is a silly discussion.

1. TL's boomerang is just better than Link's.
2. Wind effect is a gimmick at best; it's good to know and recognize when you can use it but it's not something worth counting on.
3. Boomerang is still a useful projectile for Link.
4. Huggles is awesome.

I win the argument

BryE · Mar 23, 2012

-LzR- said:
The boomerang allows you to do things that you could have done some other way except it's a lot harder to pull off and isn't worth the trouble. I would love to have TLs boomerang instead. Damage > gimmicks.

I already know that TL's boomerang is much better than Link. However my point is that Link's boomerang is useful. You are making it seem as if that his boomerang acts as an achor to Link since you claim that the wind effect isn't useful at all, in which this case it is.

Trust me, if Link had his old boomerang from Melee, I would be extremely happy. Even though I like the wind gimmick to it. lol It has better range, more damage, and more knockback at higher percentages (I think).

Blacknight99923 · Mar 23, 2012

Links boomerang is amazing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxmW1KkMDj8&list=PL83F53179F2340132&feature=player_detailpage#t=417s

Rizen · Mar 23, 2012

It's funny how your argument changes when you're proven wrong but you act like it's not blowing with the wind:

-LzR- said:
I just still haven't figured out like why the hell would I ever used boomerang since it sucks

-LzR- said:
Arrows are actually useful, bombs are amazing and boomerang barely does anything except for some once in a lifetime combovideo moments.

-LzR- said:
The Boomerang overall is just very gimmicky. It seems to have no real value except very rare moments. I would gladly have it do a lot of damage instead of a dumb wind mechanic.

-LzR- said:
Of course they use, it's not like Link is blessed with options and the first part of the boomerang is decent, but when it returns, it becomes a combovideo gimmick that never works.

-LzR- said:
See the pattern here? They are all WIFI!

See your diversion tactic here? I proved it works many times against good players and it works on wifi and offline.

-LzR- said:
The boomerang allows you to do things that you could have done some other way except it's a lot harder to pull off and isn't worth the trouble. I would love to have TLs boomerang instead. Damage > gimmicks.

It's called strategy. Why don't you just play TLink instead of complaining about something you can't change and are in denial about?

First it's "why would I ever use it" then "barely does anything except" then "no real value except in rare moments" then "the first part is decent [...] when it returns it never works" then 'admits it works on wifi while implying with no grounding that it only works on wifi' which is not true as Chaser proved, then says "boomerang allows you to do things that you could have done some other way" when Link's boomerang is the only move in the game that can wind pull and gimps at any% are worth the effort. Your argument's inconsistent, uninformed, completely without backing, and won't change anything so therefor pointless.

Huggles828 said:
This is a silly discussion.

1. TL's boomerang is just better than Link's.
strike
3. Boomerang is still a useful projectile for Link.
4. Huggles is awesome.

fixed
I strike #2. Most of the wind pull and push gimps happened exactly how I planed; their not guaranteed but neither is Falco's laser hitting. Having the wind out onscreen is great for disrupting spacing and has saved me from being hit countless times. Beating Snake's 'nades, ZSS's suit pieces, and TLink/Link's bombs is a great strategy and in no way a gimmick. Link's boomerang beats the heck out of Squirtle's and Mario's water gimps and those are situational but not gimmicks. Shield break> throw boomerang>charge Dsmash>wind returns for a double Dsmash- Link's highest damaging punisher.
I refer to a previous point that many things of Link's got seriously nerfed, including his boomerang. Melee's boomerang was better than TLink's because it's speed, damage and less lag. Link's boomerang was made worse but not by the wind. If Brawl Link had a normal boomerang it would suck too.
What is gimmicky anyway? As far as I can tell it's what people call stages like Brinstar when they don't know how to work with them properly.
The other 3 I agree with.

MegaRobMan · Mar 23, 2012

I could probably find a bunch of clips of myself owning with the boomerang, but we'll let the troll have his cake and **** it too.

BryE · Mar 23, 2012

Rizen said:
It's funny how your argument changes when you're proven wrong but you act like it's not blowing with the wind . . .

*I'm not gonna quote that huge wall of text, Arizen. lol*

Agreed.

Rizen said:
See your diversion tactic here? I proved it works many times against good players and it works on wifi and offline . . .

Agreed, again.

I've pulled off Link's Gale Return online (when I used to play online) and offline. It worked either way. Very often too. Also, I was wrong on my previous post on saying that Gale Return is reliable. It can be planned to work on your favor but there are some instances when it can backfire.

Rizen said:
. . . It's called strategy. Why don't you just play TLink instead of complaining about something you can't change and are in denial about?

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought.

If Link's boomerang is so bad and you like TLink's, why not choose TLink to end your suffering? He's a much better character, boomerang and all.
In fact I use him as a secondary character.

MegaRobMan said:
I could probably find a bunch of clips of myself owning with the boomerang, but we'll let the troll have his cake and **** it too.

But I like arguing. It's healthy for the mind! :D

Rizen · Mar 24, 2012

I have a short fuse when I'm depressed (most of the time) and am good at debating. But usually I'm debating renewable energy and how non-renewable energy is the same basic process of using steam to turn a turbine so why aren't we using wind and water that naturally occur to do it? Instead of letting the b****** companies who jerked our generation around in Iraq and opened that Pandora's box further pressure blast 500,000 gallons of water, sand and toxins they won't reveal much deeper than conventional drilling to break the sheet rock and release natural gasses so 1 well can be [FONT=&quot]fracked[/FONT] up to 18 times? (One or more of) Wind/Solar/Hydro electric/Geo thermal energy exists everywhere life can exist. They can't be monopolized! We're letting more energy than we could ever use slip through our fingers everyday so sadistic executives can keep control by causing earthquakes (Ohio) and blasting their toxic waste to break up rocks beneath us!
...and various other issues (don't get me started on the media) as well as personal matters. I tend to rapier less serious points that a dart would be better suited for. So I guess I should apologize for coming off cold or as a 'shoots from the hip' type. My sights are almost always on the issue and rarely a person(s).

Huggles828 · Mar 24, 2012

Rizen said:
See your diversion tactic here? I proved it works many times against good players and it works on wifi and offline.

Most of the wind pull and push gimps happened exactly how I planed; their not guaranteed but neither is Falco's laser hitting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgiTl6YQK8s&t=1m13s
When my opponent double jumped I knew he was going to get pushed by the wind. I took advantage of it to get a few hits in. I did NOT throw the boomerang planning out that he would jump into it and push him. When it pushed him I did not think for even a fraction of a second it would get me a gimp. It does not happen against a good player offline, they know to take the damage and get back onstage. Also... the Falco laser argument is pretty weak. Falco doesn't need a laser hitting to be successful, and he can shoot out lasers frequently, and you will reliably eat lots of laser damage over the course of the match. It's different.

It's called strategy.

There comes a point where all the intelligence and planning in the world does not make certain options better than others. Proper strategery can let you take advantage of the wind effect, but it's never going to improve it to be reliably better than other options other characters have. People around here seem to think Link's options have unlimited potential if you use them right and that's simply not true.

Shield break> throw boomerang>charge Dsmash>wind returns for a double Dsmash- Link's highest damaging punisher.

No offense Rizen... but this is silly. And pretty much fits the bill for gimmick.

This whole argument is amusing me, haha. This is the last I'll say about this topic.

BryE · Mar 24, 2012

Huggles828 said:
Also... the Falco laser argument is pretty weak. Falco doesn't need a laser hitting to be successful, and he can shoot out lasers frequently, and you will reliably eat lots of laser damage over the course of the match. It's different.

I assume Rizen meant in terms of being accurate and always happening with every executed attack.

Falco players usually spam with lazers in order to space and keep distance between themselves and their opponent. However hitting the opponent is also a somewhat important factor in Falco's gameplay, since the stun can cripple some characters and the Falco's motive is to also rack up damage.
It doesn't happen with every Lazer that's fired and neither does Link's Boomerang (gimping the enemy that is). But I do see your point too.

Rizen said:
Shield break> throw boomerang>charge Dsmash>wind returns for a double Dsmash- Link's highest damaging punisher.

I'm sorry Rizen, but I also that idea was a little silly.
But it's only because of the shield break. Breaking shields has been a rare occurrence for me. And when it happens, either the character falls off the edge or I would just go for a regular charged smash attack or charged Spin Attack.

Blacknight99923 · Mar 24, 2012

Man the link boards have so much action!

Scabe · Mar 24, 2012

We have Lzr to thank for all this action lmao.

Rizen · Mar 24, 2012

^Scabe always sees the bright side of things.

Huggles828 said:
I did NOT throw the boomerang planning out that he would jump into it and push him. When it pushed him I did not think for even a fraction of a second it would get me a gimp. It does not happen against a good player offline, they know to take the damage and get back onstage. Also... the Falco laser argument is pretty weak. Falco doesn't need a laser hitting to be successful, and he can shoot out lasers frequently, and you will reliably eat lots of laser damage over the course of the match. It's different.

Just because you don't do something doesn't mean it won't work and isn't good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2f0e-Wm4j1A#t=159s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqx1FUQ3nOIThat worked perfectly, would work offline or on and against any Marth in that position.
The point about lasers is they're the best projectile in the game and they often miss so calling something gimmicky just because it doesn't work every time is stupid.

Huggles828 said:
There comes a point where all the intelligence and planning in the world does not make certain options better than others. Proper strategery can let you take advantage of the wind effect, but it's never going to improve it to be reliably better than other options other characters have. People around here seem to think Link's options have unlimited potential if you use them right and that's simply not true.

You just summarized Link's metagame since '08; what's your point?

Huggles828 said:
No offense Rizen... but this is silly. And pretty much fits the bill for gimmick.

BryE said:
I'm sorry Rizen, but I also that idea was a little silly.
But it's only because of the shield break.

Some time ago, when DEVA modded AiB and good tourney attending players like Legen, Mr.R and most Links were still active and posting the question arose, 'what's the most damaging way to punish a shield break?' it was decided that double Dsmash did the most damage and could be done consistently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1LFm4y7Q0FE#t=115s

Huggles828 said:
This whole argument is amusing me, haha. This is the last I'll say about this topic.

I've worked hard to be taken seriously on both AiB and SWF Link forums. I know the whole 'Link's great on paper but in real life...' deal. Link isn't good but Link has the Gale boomerang and should use it to it's full potential. The wind push is spaced the same as where uncharged arrows and SH arrows land, boomerang tilted and smashed respectively. To space the wind push is as easy as knowing how to space Link's bow. Really must you mock my work which you haven't tried yourself?
I don't want a big thing about this but recognize I've been in the online Link community longer than anyone here except Red Ryu and I know Link.

escro · Mar 24, 2012

Rizen, don't take offence from what everyone here is saying. You should probably take it as a compliment to yourself that you are able to pull off those techniques with such accuracy so as to not consider it a "gimmick" but as a proper Advanced technique.
I've always admired your skill and knowledge with Link despite his many limitations, and it's people like you who help to further Link as a character.

BryE · Mar 24, 2012

Rizen said:
. . . it was decided that double Dsmash did the most damage and could be done consistently.

Oh, I never meant that the Double Dsmash idea was silly, along with the damage output. I was stating that the combination of shield break and Dsmash is VERY situational.

Scabe · Mar 24, 2012

I've completely forgotten about double Dsmash.

Rizen · Mar 24, 2012

BryE said:
Oh, I never meant that the Double Dsmash idea was silly, along with the damage output. I was stating that the combination of shield break and Dsmash is VERY situational.

Yeah

. Hypothetically Link could punish a shield break with 2 bombs and a double Dsmash for the most damage but it would be almost impossible to time. Shield brakes are rare and punishing them is situational too.
Double Dsmash gives the most damage, attack frame 1 Dair has the most overall launch power, if Link can KO the opponent sideways then charged spinattack standing right beside them is usually best since Fsmash is often a little stale (at least how I play).

And there are some crazy things Link can do that aren't reliable but looks sweet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DBd6iIUA3U

Blacknight99923 · Mar 25, 2012

Whats links generally accepted best stage?

Huggles828 · Mar 25, 2012

Blacknight99923 said:
Whats links generally accepted best stage?

Not-Frigate-Orpheon

BryE · Mar 25, 2012

Huggles828 said:
Not-Frigate-Orpheon

:I Yeah I hate that stage with a passion.

My friend is a Mario player and I play against him all the time. Whenever I go to that stage with Link, I cringe.

Rizen · Mar 25, 2012

Blacknight99923 said:
Whats links generally accepted best stage?

Norfair. ...when it was legal

Brinstar is very good vs most opponents. Not good vs characters with good reach like Marth, DK, MK (duh), Ike, Peach, maybe a few others.

PS1 is my best neutral and what I pick if I don't know who my opponent is because it sort of covers all Link's weaknesses. Link can platform camp and it changes into different terrains, which helps Link spam. PS1 has a good amount of room but isn't HUGE either so Link's spam covers the stage well. Characters can't cross under the stage or shark except at the ledges. Link's UpB can be guided sideways a little if caught under the ledge and he will survive, unlike precision recovers like Wolf's etc.

Japes is great for Link because water helps him not get gimped, he has room and good stage control options. The down side is he can easily be timed out there.

Link can do well on most other stages but it depends on if the opponent likes the stage or not.

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