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Le Lazy Lurking Link's Listen/Laugh Lounge ♪~ (^ 。^=)

Rizen

Smash Legend
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I hate the summer heat. It's hard to exercise. Even at 10 pm it's stupid hot.
I'd like to know the Brawl player's perspective on the ROB matchup please. I've played against one today and lost 1-2, but I felt like had I spaced a few things differently and didn't lose my patience I would've won. Any help? :o
Link has a strangely good MU vs ROB. It's still -1 Link but he has really good ways to space ROB.
The entire match is a game of wits and controlling each character's preferred spacing.

Link's Zair is a great tool and he can SH Zair over ROB's stupid tilts. ROB can upward robo beam Link but it's a matter of mind games. Add air dodges, bombs and landing cancels to the mix and Link has a good SH medium range game vs ROB.
Link's long grab is good at punishing ROB and SH>Zair OoS is too.
Link's 3 projectiles and disjointed hit bubbles are good at walling off gyros. But ROB's beam out camps Link if used wisely. If Link grabs the gyro he can do anything he could with a bomb with it.

Link will want to keep ROB at medium range and ROB wins from far away and at very close range so it's an even spacing battle. Link wants to stay mid range. Link works better with platforms because ROB's large hurtbox and slow movement speed. Link can also juggle ROB from below. If ROB gets Link offstage Link is in a world of trouble.

ROB doesn't have any great way like CGs to get Link offstage. But if Link plays foolishly and wastes his jumps ROB can force it. ROB also can corner Link against a ledge; Link will have to cross over ROB at times. He can't simple space defensively the whole match. Link has several trump cards to deal with this too. Zair chains into attacks, jump>throw a bomb down, RAR Bair can be very useful, Landing cancel jab, grab>Bthrow, are all good ways to cross over. Platforms really help too.

ROB gimps and lives a long time but Link can KO earlier. A well played SH Dair over ROB's Tilt or Dsmash is a strong KO option. The usual traps with throw bomb down>Dair, arrow/jab locks, Jab cancel>Dsmash. Zair chains, not true combos, into smashes. Utilt is still a fast KO move at higher %s (over 160%) and grab>Uthrow KOs after 180%.

ROB probably won't power KO Link but all he needs to do is get Link offstage and intercept him. ROB's Bair has surprisingly long reach. ROB can play air stalling mind games and try to punish a hasty grab or rush attempt so be careful. Fair backs Link up and chains together but good DI and Zair can escape. Remember Link can fall much faster than ROB>land and shield or Utilt.

ROB's FTilt is stupidly long and matches Link's Fsmash, it's fast too. ROB's entire ground game is very quick put not potent. Good DI is and not getting pinned or cornered is the key to escaping ROB's quick ground shenanigans. ROB's Dsmash is frame 4, the fastest tied with Zelda's, and it's spamable. Fortunately it doesn't launch sideways like MK's. Up close ROB can juggle with Utilt and agressively rush and chain attacks on Link. Keep a cool head and DI then counter with Zair. Don't freak out and wast Link's double jump. When Link does jump, pull a bomb.

Arrows and boomerang play the average roll in this MU but nothing special. Just be wary of ROB's beam which will cut Link out of SH spamming.

Stages: Brinstar but it's banned as always :(. Keep in mind ROB does out camp Link from far away so don't pick too big and wide a stage like Halberd. BF is the ideal choice because Link has a better vertical game than ROB with bombs, platform camping and Utilt pokes up through the platforms. Ban FD. Most sages are a toss up. PS1/Delfino/PS2 can also aid ROB's long range beam and allow him to Dtilt pin Link. Lylat/SV can also aid ROB's spam game unlike BF. YI sucks for Link.

tl;dr keep ROB at medium range (around the tip of Zair) or above/below Link to win. -1.
 
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Huggles828

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Been a long time since I've looked at matchups and my info is probably outdated, but I've always felt like the ROB matchup was a little tougher than everyone else made it out to be, like a solid -2. ROB beats us badly at range and up close; we want to space at mid ranges. Zair works well. Watch for his grabs and jab game. He has an excellent recovery but not so great momentum cancelling, so he dies at like 130-140 maybe iirc but we can't really do much off the edge to him. If you can grab his top I like to play keepaway with it; the longer you have control of it the longer his long range game is crippled (he can't repeatedly spam just his laser alone since there's a cooldown) plus ROB has some nasty things he can do while holding the top (I think he can glide toss). Just try not to be too cute while holding the top. Hope that helps.
 

Rizen

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Naroghin

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I'll soon be visiting a friend of mine who plays Rob quite a bit. This will be quite helpful! Thanks.

Here's to hoping my chops aren't just a big bowl of rust.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
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I'll be glad when SSB4 comes out; I haven't played smash since the wifi was shut down.
I've played some Monster Hunter 3 U but I'm kind of bored with the game. I'm trying to solo the super event quest monsters.
I'm also replaying Metal Arms: Glitch in the System for game cube. It's a great game that never got the recognition it deserves.

I've got that 'Middletown Dreams' syndrome going on. Sigh :(. I had a pretty good day though. I had dinner with my mom, which is nice because my sink if full of dishes. Dishes never end. I got a good 2.5+ mile walk in.
 

Heero Yuy

#sweg
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Last question for Rizen... What's the Link matchup versus Diddy in the Brawl perspective?

There's one person in my hometown who's better than me at P:M and he has a ridiculous Diddy. Thanks in advance!
 

Rizen

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Last question for Rizen... What's the Link matchup versus Diddy in the Brawl perspective?

There's one person in my hometown who's better than me at P:M and he has a ridiculous Diddy. Thanks in advance!
Diddy is a -1.5 MU so that rounds to -2 but it's not as bad as typical -2s.
The main reason diddy wins is his speed and damage racking abilities, not nanas so much. Diddy is like squirtle in ways; he's quick, agile and can hop around Link. He also has bananas as trump cards during this.

Bananas:
Link has a really good anti-item game vs Diddy's Bananas (nanas). Bombs can be thrown strait through nanas and their explosions launch up so that helps stop nana chains. Link has a good SH projectile game and can cover landings with bombs. As with any throwing item, Link can Zair and Fsmash with a nana in addition to arrows, Brang, z-drop>catch with aerial attack, etc so holding one doesn't limit Link's playstyle and gives him a quick trip option to chain into KO moves.
Diddy's nanas have transcendent properties and he can interrupt Link's sword play with them. Diddy can do the standard nana attack chains if Link isn't careful but, as mentioned earlier, Link has good ways to avoid these.

KOing Diddy:
Diddy is a medium weight with a good recovery and he's hard to hit or set up frame traps vs. Diddy will Live for a while. Link can get a good read and KO early but if diddy is smart he can also bait Link into trying to smash or Dair and counter with a transcendent nana, then possibly chain them. Link does have 2 quick KO moves: Dsmash and Utilt (frame 6 and 7) so try not to stale those when Diddy's over 120%. Link's normal spam game keeps move fresh. Ftilt can be a good answer to Diddy's hopping around but you have to time it early. If Link gets Diddy offstage be careful Diddy doesn't forwardB monkey flip, grab Link and jump off him; this has surprising range. The best thing to do is snipe Diddy's recoveries. If Diddy has to rocket barrel recover Link can Dair where diddy must move to recover and Land Dairs that way. Keep in mind Diddy can wall jump so Frigate's 1st phase right side isn't too bad for him. Don't be baited to Dair-ing offstage if Diddy can wall jump/cling. Only Dair his Rocket barrel recoveries. The usual locks, jab cancels can work as always.

Keeping Diddy out of Link's face:
Nair is a great combo breaking move. For small fast characters like Diddy, Squirtle, Wario, Fair/Bair walls them really well and landing cancels into jab/Dsmash/Utilt. Zair is less effective. Utilt's a good GTFO move. Diddy's nanas unfortunately pass through Link's sword so be careful he doesn't bait Link and counter. Bombs beat nanas so holding a bomb and pressuring aggressively with them really helps.
DI is more important than usual, which makes it very important. Diddy's moves like Fsmash, dash attack, Tilts, jab combo, Usmash can be SDI-ed out of. If Diddy is stupid and tries to jab too long or tilt chain Link can Fsmash through it after DI-ing out. DI Fsmash in and down, up out of Usmash/Utilt and out from jabs/Dtilts.

When recovering:
Diddy doesn't have great ways to stop Link like Marth or ROB but diddy is very fast. He can quickly throw Link offstage and run off>Fair. Bananas can act like Peach's turnips to stop Link too. If you're near the stage and Diddy jumps at Link Fair walls him. Spam projectiles from a safe distance but don't be surprised by a Diddy rush attack.
Diddy can spam peanuts but they break from any hit. Don't underestimate them though. If Diddy's spamming and Link's on the edge, they have a rapid flow of attack that makes life difficult. Don't try to ledge hop when this happens; use a quick ledge stand or jump depending on the peanuts' spacing.

Stages: Platforms hurt Diddy's banana game and Link has a good disjointed reach so go for stages like BF. Ban FD. Avoid areas where Diddy can pin Link against a wall. Halberd is a better choice than PS1 in that respect. The low Cieling helps Link too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnbiFhMLaJ4&list=PLr1TA6mS1hkv4aAyML6Se--hAXN4qTFZw&index=29
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jew2AFKZw_8&list=PLr1TA6mS1hkv4aAyML6Se--hAXN4qTFZw&index=34
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
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Bump!
A lot of characters have been revealed for Hyrule Warriors
https://www.youtube.com/user/Nintendo/search?query=hyrule+warriors
Ruto, Agitha, Sheik, Fi, Midna and so on.

How is everyone?

I've been back on the wagon with going on walks. It's been very hot out and that was a major deterrent so I've walked a night a lot.

I'm looking forward to SSB4, Zelda for Wii U and Xenoblade the most. What games are you guys hyped about?
 

Heero Yuy

#sweg
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Placed 3rd at the first tournament I've been to in over a year! My only two losses were vs the best P:M and Melee player, respectively. The winner of the tourney used Diddy and I did surprisingly better than I thought against him. And of course, I went Link the whole tourney.

Thanks again Rizen for the tips! (Even though it's a completely different game, lol)
 
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Rizen

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^Congrats Heero!

Wow, the boards are dead :[
I'm getting the Wii U SSB4 because I don't have a 3DS. In a way it sucks that the 3DS version is launching a month or two earlier because the internet will be flooded with spoilers of all the secret characters and stages. 3DS players get a head start too.
I can see why the releases are separate from a marketing standpoint. The 2 versions shouldn't compete with each other for sales.

PS
'Each Other' should be one word.
 

Bomber7

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I've been reduced to lurking because I don't have much to say no adays. Been trying to make that transition from college grad to real world adult with real world responcibilities. It's a work in progress. Might be getting a management job soon, but that's about it. My life is work, housework, relationship, guild wars, and job hunting.
 

Naroghin

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PS
'Each Other' should be one word.
This.

Also, I've never thought you to be whiny at all. I think many of us look up to you and it's humbling to see that despite what great things you're clearly capable of you're not afraid to let us know that sometimes, everything is not alright. The humanizing traits are often the ones we don't think people want to see.
 

Rizen

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^Thanks :) some days are better than others; it comes in waves.

I wonder how far down SSB4 Link's dash attack goes. In Brawl, Link's Ftilt was a good way to hit opponents hanging on the ledge. DA in SSB4 could be a great way to stage spike.
 

Naroghin

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Would be easier to nab if you're needing to run to the edge to make it in time, too. Yeah, you could pivot the tilt in Brawl but this would be quicker and would allow better aim/control. Looks like just another fun thing to try out on Christmas morning, I guess. :D
 

Rizen

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I can't believe I watched 'Team America: World Police' (by the guys who made South Park). It's funny but every scene is "holy ****ing ****, what did I just watch?!"
 

Rizen

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It's certainly nothing if not quotable. I quote the hell outta that movie and I've never actually seen it.
You can find it for free online; I can't link it because it's probably R rated. TBH, Team America was funny in a 'how offensive and shocking but funny can we make this satire?' sort of way but as a move it was okay, not great. It makes fun of spy show cliches a lot, which is done well but the characters aren't 'rounded' or particularly likable. I don't think it will have good re-watch value.

Have you guys been keeping up with the SSB4 pic of the day?
http://smashboards.com/threads/miiv...2nd-edition-updated-8-1.348234/#post-16352805
 

Naroghin

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It's also a direct parody of the puppet (mostly scifi) movies that used to be definitely a real and serious thing. The character development was much that in those films as well. A lot of the movies those guys do tend to be right on with their commentary but I would agree the quality as an actual movie falls short because of it.

So, what is it like an AngryBirds kind of thing?
 

Huggles828

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So went to Gamestop and preordered Smash 4. Also got Bioshock/Bioshock Infinite while I was there. I can't play FPS's if there's no Legacy control scheme. This is the first time in a very long time I've legitimately been bad at a game, haha. Walkin' into walls for the win!
 

Rizen

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I have mine pre-ordered :) I'm good at most games except balance with motion controls (like the marble minigame in the fishing hole in Twilight Princess) and rhythm games.

I've committed to drawing at least one thing a day no matter what.

@ Naroghin Naroghin , you mean this pic of the day?

8/1
What's up with this bomb? This looks like the stadium for the Home-run Contest, but there's no bat. Once you touch the bomb, it begins to count down. Give it enough damage and launch it at the right time…then once the bomb's countdown hits zero…!!
  • ...It goes BOOOOOM! Not only will the blast destroy targets, but it'll also cause a chain reaction by using shattered walls and bomb blocks--all of which contributes to you getting a high score!! This is a new activity that combines the concepts of Target Smash and the Home-run Contest--it's called Target Blast! Your final score is the total you rack up over two rounds. Of course, your Target Blast scores contribute to your Global Smash Power, too.
  • It looks sort of like angry birds.
  • Stupid site formatting wants to bullet after that cut and paste :/
 

Naroghin

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Yep, that's exactly what I was talking about. Looks angrybirdish to me as well.

I'm legitimately bad at press-the-right-button-on-command-during-what-looks-like-an-innocent-cutscene-games. Except RE4, though those parts gave me the most trouble. I just end up watching the same stupid cutscene over and over, getting one step farther each time as I inevitably fail my first try at each command and memorize the order for the next time around. That and racing games, but that's by choice cause they are BORING.
 

Rizen

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I dislike the interactive cutscene style too. What's it called, quick time events or something? It makes for big cinematic scenes but the player does close to nothing. Those should be simple cutscenes or full, normal play, control IMO.
For racing I like some craziness but it's hard to find the right balance. Beetle Adventure Racing (N64) hit the nail on the head for my style of racing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PU7sU0sN80
It seems like a serious racing game but then you drive off an icy bridge and discover a shortcut with an alien saucer crashed into a cave or a T-Rex or dragon etc. If you beat it on the hardest setting you unlock a police car that has the horn replaced with a siren that makes the other racers pull over! It was hard but fun.

I drew this today

(Click to enlarge)

No references or planning. The knight's generic with a weak pose but I like the monster a lot.
 
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Naroghin

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I mostly agree; I have a soft spot for many racing games for one reason or another, be it encouraged exploration, demolition, crazy levels of customization, open world, etc. I just think too many racing games go for ultra-realism and it turns into the sports games of the same type, all of which are generally tiresome. Some racing games I can spend hours just trying to get outside the normal map or trying to find other glitches, but I'm mostly just overcome with ennui during normal play.

Also, nice sketch. Do you ever color/polish your sketches or are these mostly technique-builders? I often find the same sort of expression through 4-part chorale harmonizing or composing 2-3 part fugato. They rarely turn into completed works but it's fun and keeps my theory chops honed.

EDIT: Oh, and I wanted to ask your advice on something. The strongest smasher I get the chance to play is an Ike main. The matchup seems like it should be pretty good but his spacing and zoning are just killer. I usually end up going Ganon where we're pretty well matched. Thoughts on the MU?
 
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Bomber7

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Went to a 64 tournament Saturday. It was about 23 people. Managed to get 6th carrying a lot of rust on my back. Link only. Hell yeaaaah.
 

Rizen

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Good work Bomber :)
I mostly agree; I have a soft spot for many racing games for one reason or another, be it encouraged exploration, demolition, crazy levels of customization, open world, etc. I just think too many racing games go for ultra-realism and it turns into the sports games of the same type, all of which are generally tiresome. Some racing games I can spend hours just trying to get outside the normal map or trying to find other glitches, but I'm mostly just overcome with ennui during normal play.

Also, nice sketch. Do you ever color/polish your sketches or are these mostly technique-builders? I often find the same sort of expression through 4-part chorale harmonizing or composing 2-3 part fugato. They rarely turn into completed works but it's fun and keeps my theory chops honed.

EDIT: Oh, and I wanted to ask your advice on something. The strongest smasher I get the chance to play is an Ike main. The matchup seems like it should be pretty good but his spacing and zoning are just killer. I usually end up going Ganon where we're pretty well matched. Thoughts on the MU?
Yeah. I don't like ultra realistic racing games like Grand Tresmo or Forsa.

I do sometimes but it takes a long time. I'm too much of a perfectionist and it can actually keep me from sketching ironically. So I'm committing to a sketch a day even if it's without reference, polish etc to keep me drawing.

_____________________________________________________________
Link vs Ike MU

Link vs Ike is a solid -2 for Link.
Ike has really good range. His Fair matches Link's Zair. Ike also wins at close range because his frame 2 jab is really good. Link wins from long range but Ike, like all characters can close that distance without much trouble. Ike has faster movement speed than Link.

The trick to the MU is you want to be assertive in an indirect way. Link can attack while backing up. Link can angle his projectiles to curve up or down on Ike as Link SHs evading him. Link can drop bombs/throw them down while hopping from platform to platform.

Ground game:
The thing is, even though Ike's jab and grab beat Link's ground game in speed at very close range, Link's jab and Dsmash are longer and faster than Ike's other ground moves. Link can fend Ike of with the tip of his jab/Dsmash spacing. When pressured don't panic because with good spacing Link can beat Ike's speed. This also means retreating Zair>landing cancel buffered jab is a safe way to land for the most part.
Be careful to not commit to laggy attacks because Ike hits like a freight train. I'm talking about moves like Link's grab, Usmash and Spin Attack from the ground. Ike can SH Fair or Fsmash any of these safely. Stick with jab cancels, Dsmash. And be careful with Utilt because Ike out-ranges it; use it for platform pressure.

Air game
Link's Zair is faster than Ike's Fair but be careful because Fair has a huge arching swing. Link is faster with moves like Bair, Nair but Ike has superior air movement speed to help his Fairs so don't fall into traps trying to be too aggressive.
Besides Zair, don't use air melee attacks vs Ike when he's on the ground. Ike's Usmash has insane reach, especially above and behind him and Ike can shield>jab/grab.

Ledge game
If Link's on the ledge Ike can bat him away with Fair/Usmash/Fsmash or do a quick read>Ftilt. Ike can hit Link off the ledge if he hangs while vulnerable too. All these can be avoided but Ike's moves also cover a huge area so it's about being smart and timing. Link can Zair edgehog 3 times quickly (tap away from ledge>Z>Z and repeat 2 more times) to build up invulnerability then immediately use it to ledge jump or get up attack safely. I don't recommend ledge hop attacks.
If Ike's on the ledge he can UpB plank if Link gets close and this can reach surprisingly far into a stage since it follows a under stage slope up back to the ledge. Link's gale wind push can gimp Ike if he does that. Don't be baited into approaching and spam the ledge Ike's on with all 3 projectiles to gimp or get Ike off.

Escaping Ike
Zair>jab covers landings but do it retreating. If Ike jabs, DI/SDI out and up a little then Zair>jab drifting away. If you have to jump pull a bomb. Invincibomb (airdodge+'A' or 'Z' together, drops a bomb as Link airdodges) can be very useful. Ike's sword can destroy bombs safely, although the timing's hard, so don't count on throwing a bomb down or at Ike always protecting Link. Don't be directly above Ike because his UpB. Attack fro diagonal angles. Run>SH Bair is a good GTFO tactic. Backward jump over a ledge>FF airdodge>zair it from under is a great way to reset a situation.

Ike KOing Link
Ike will punish super hard so don't commit to lag or be too aggressive. Don't commit to Dair/Umsash/spin attack and don't recklessly try to rush Ike or return from the ledge.
Beware Ike's Fair range he can hit far underneath and punish when Link tries to landing punish Ike. Link has a blind spot 45% above and in front of him that Ike exploits.
Like Link, Ike can platform poke upwards so be careful.
For quick KOs Ike can Ftilt or Bair but Link can avoid these with good spacing and they're not super fast.
Ike can Dthrow>dash attack but I think it's escapable.
If Ike gets Link offstage his Fair is very limiting to Link's options. Don't underestimate Ike's air speed + Fair reach; thrown BRang if you're far away otherwise time an air dodge.

KOing Ike
The usual locks, Zair>Fsmash, jab cancel>Dsmash can work as always. Link is about as fast as Ike and sometimes faster with moves like Fair or Fsmash from their tips but beware Ike's baiting games. Link can punishing shield grab Ike's landing/Tilts/Smashes but be careful not to be baited; only grab if Ike can't double jump.
If Ike's offstage Link's spam and gale wind intercept him but don't jump out to get him. If Ike sibeB's at the ledge, edge hog. Link can quick Zair edgehog (3x) Ike's upB but it's strict and too risky imo. BRang wind gimps.
Link doesn't have a great setup to KO Ike so he'll have to be smart and opportunistic.

Stages:
Link likes big stages like PS1, Delfino, Halberd. Ike will probably want a small stage he can control well like BF. I'd say ban YI for this MU.

Summery:
Both Link and Ike can live forever and Gimp each other but Ike KOs earlier, gimps more easily, punishes much harder and controls small to medium stages better (most stages). Play passively, rack up damage safely don't commit to lag, don't try to be aggressive. Link has a uphill but winnable battle at -2.

Vids
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vvMlTAmyqg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh3_BY2fHUc



Edit, Nintendo direct on Hyrule warriors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_DZtTR3zu0
 
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Naroghin

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Thanks, that puts a lot of our matches into perspective. I'll break my Link out the next time we play and see if I can apply some of this stuff and see the fight a little more clearly.
 

Heero Yuy

#sweg
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Life's great at the moment!

Hyrule Warriors is honestly topping my wishlist right now. I would even say it's above Smash 4 as well.
 
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Bomber7

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Found out Amaranthe is coming to New Orleans in October. You guys can have your wishlists for that month, but tickets for that show are on mine. Screw Smash, Elize Ryd more important. You mad? - go look her up and tell me smash is more important. :p
 

Naroghin

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Found out Amaranthe is coming to New Orleans in October. You guys can have your wishlists for that month, but tickets for that show are on mine. Screw Smash, Elize Ryd more important. You mad? - go look her up and tell me smash is more important. :p
Looked her up; smash is more important. Even when JUST considering the music: New arrangements from noteworthy current game composers of classic music by some of the greatest game composers of all time, performed by the world's best symphony orchestras (and other small groups) strikes me as much more important in terms of music theory, music culture, and music history.
 

Rizen

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Youtube's being stupid today. Is that happening for anyone else?

I got some good photos of a toad on my walk today :) I have a butt-load of photos to sort through so you won't see it for a while.
I get depressed sometimes but things are going pretty well in general. I drew a bit everyday except one. Some of my sketches are much better than others. Things don't turn out well when I'm in a bad mood.

Has anyone seen the movie 'Dodgeball: A True Underdog Story'? It's very adult and off color but very funny.
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
1) Youtube is always stupid. Everytime it gets a subtle change, it becomes worse.
2) I can't wait to see those pictures.
3) Dodgeball - sounds fun.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,974
Location
Fascist ****Hole Of America
1) Youtube is always stupid. Everytime it gets a subtle change, it becomes worse.
That's true but it ended up I needed to reset my modem manually.

I think that Link was seriously misrepresented in this 'Grudge Match' vs Sora:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4MUBCV0Nvc&list=UUtopEFV391xhK-bVMMLOdTg

I was up all night; insomnia sucks. I literally laid in the dark for over 80 minutes with my sleep mix CD on and couldn't fall asleep. I'm tired.

Edit, I just deleted 178 photos and have a lot more to sort through. I'm frequently getting more too, lol. But this way I get really good shots :)
Here's a few:




 
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