Le Lazy Lurking Link's Listen/Laugh Lounge ♪~ (^ 。^=)

[Bomber7]

YEah, all my "secondaries" are mid-low tier. Technically I don't consider my fun characters to be of usage category, but if I had to assign them, they'd be tertiarties.

Main: TL
Secondary: PT (lol) -> ignore dis guy
Tertiary: Link, Zelda, Ike, Ganon, IC, Random

 

[Heero Yuy]

I would have huge tertiaries list, then...

Main: ZSS
Secondary: Link
Tertiary: ...Everyone else?

Curses knowing how to use every Brawl character... Thus is why I always tend to enjoy friendlies more than serious matches in whatever Smash game.

 

[Bomber7]

Dude Random [insert character name here] is always automatically better. There is no strategy against Random so it has a 100:0 MU against everyone.

 

[Anonano]

I don't...what?

 

[Heero Yuy]

What do you guys think is more crippling on Link's behalf? His lackluster mobility or his terrible recovery? I kinda feel like the former is more true, seeing how Wolf and TL (both similar characters) generally place higher and their movement is far better.

 

[Rizen]

What do you guys think is more crippling on Link's behalf? His lackluster mobility or his terrible recovery? I kinda feel like the former is more true, seeing how Wolf and TL (both similar characters) generally place higher and their movement is far better.

Mobility for sure. That and lag in moves. Toon Link's ground game is slower than Link's, his reach is worse, Zair's worse, he's less powerful in most moves but he's a passive, spacing oriented character who can actually space so he's high tier. Unlike Link who gets PSed and OoSed or grabbed.
Lag hurts Link a TON more than recovery. I rarely get gimped. Link's reach is on par with Marth's and Link has several great versatile tools like bombs and Zair but he loses to less laggy, more mobile characters simply moving in and hitting him

Link's slow grab and terrible OoS options paired with lag and bad mobility means people good with shielding eat Link alive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4FIhHni6Ak&feature=player_detailpage&t=41 Snake has a frame 4 Ftilt that's HUGE and frame 6 Utilt (same as Link's jab/Dsmash and a good grab. IMO the reason Ike's not lower is his awesome frame 2 jab. Link needs a GTFO move and Spin attack is pathetic.

Link getting exploited by CGs adds to this deadly cocktail. Wolf gets exploited bad by most things but his mobility and spacing with Bair are awesome so he goes even (or -1 IMO) with ICs. Link's Bair is actually a great spacing tool but his air speed cripples him.




Link's recovery's bad but it's not really the issue despite popular belief from people who don't play Link. Look at Oli's recovery and he's one of the top 4 characters.

 

[Bomber7]

Pretty much everything Rizen said. People who don't play like sound like the biggest pricks when they trash talk Link and emphasize so much on how bad his recovery is. Ha. They're just a bunch of jokes.

 

[Heero Yuy]

I'm not gonna lie... The biggest reason I changed my main from Link to ZSS in Brawl was - while he wasn't exactly a prick - from a guy who told me to change my main because he claimed Link's recovery was abysmal and therefore wasn't viable. He was only half true.

I don't really feel Link's spacing game is awful. I feel as though Deva had the best spacing of all the Link veterans, which is why I feel like he's the smoothest Link. He knew how to utilize the rang and arrows best. Of course that was at a huge cost of tech skill, which he could've improved at.

 

[Rizen]

^Everyone should play who they want to play. It doesn't matter how the rank as long as it's what you want to do.

There's a lot of hating, including high tier and low tier (or lower than A tier) hate, which is stupid. I'm a hater hater, lol but I don't have anything against people who play high tiers and don't spam or tell low tiers they're stupid or bad players and to use better characters. Most of the players I really respect are high tiers.


Deva was really good at spacing and DI. He held the Link community together and pushed the metagame for a long time, same goes for Legan.



Link is a bad character; I don't blame anyone for not sticking with him. I just like him

 

[Anonano]

The killer for me is his moves' lag. If he had some way to compensate for that, like extra shieldstun when hitting shields, he'd be a lot better, in spite of still having slow startup/ending. The other killer for me is that most of his attacks don't have the coverage I'd like around his body (for instance, fair covers only a small area directly in front of him, and fsmash misses small opponents standing directly in front of Link or ones diagnally in front and up).

Even with that though, Link lacks something that sets him above and beyond average like high tiers have.

Ganny can't be much different--he mostly suffers from move lag and poor coverage (jab missing short characters anyone?) Link's ability to spam eases his difficult up-close game. Ganon needs to get a lot of good reads. Thankfully for Ganon, reads pay pig (geddit? Oh the pun)

 

[Rizen]

Ftilt's a good alternative to Fsmash if people roll behind and punish it. Or SH Fair if you want less commitment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td1BHj9CVO4&feature=player_detailpage&t=288 . I agree with your post. If spin was good it would solve a lot of problems. Give Spin Attack invulnerability and let Link move a little during the attack like Bowser's fortress upB.


Ganon also gets exploited in some way (not always the worst way) by EVERY grab release, infinite, juggle, etc. He doesn't get infinited by Marth's GRs like PK kids do but he takes a low% CG>Dair or tipper Fsmash.

 

[Anonano]

I'm not talking about opponents rolling behind; if an opponent is in front of Link and touching him, Link will fsmash through the opponent without hitting. I'm not sure if every character can dodge fsmash in this way but I know that skinny/small characters will not get hit.

It's because Link leans forward during the windup, and as such it will not push the opponent away from Link like it would normally were he just standing or walking into the opponent. So the animation goes through the opponent and the fsmash comes out the other side.

It wouldn't be a massive problem if it weren't for the fact that it leads to a hard punish from the opponent.

 

[Rizen]

Yeah, it's dumb Link steps forward with Fsmash so you have to start far away. SH Fair is a good alternative when they're close because you can guide it backwards as needed and it hops over jabs/grabs/getup attacks and hits with the second slash then you have 2 frames landing lag>whatever.

 

[Death Arcana]

Toon Link's ground game is slower than Link's

please do explain in detail cause i disagree with this
and imo TLs Zair is better for the fact that Toon link is more floaty
therefor i can keep an airdodge out longer than Link can, and change the timing of my zair more

 

[Heero Yuy]

please do explain in detail cause i disagree with this
and imo TLs Zair is better for the fact that Toon link is more floaty
therefor i can keep an airdodge out longer than Link can, and change the timing of my zair more

TL's Zair is a terrible option. You don't see MJG or KingToon use it a lot because it 1. Has less reach and 2. Has only one hitbox. Floatiness has nothing to do with it at all. As a recovery move, once again it has shorter reach, airdodge or not. Link's Zair is better than TL's in every aspect.

 

[Rizen]

please do explain in detail cause i disagree with this
and imo TLs Zair is better for the fact that Toon link is more floaty
therefor i can keep an airdodge out longer than Link can, and change the timing of my zair more

Sure.
Speed:

Spoiler

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/toon-link-frame-data.193918/
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=124952

Link/Toon Link (first hit, in frames)
Jab combo hits on:
6,12,21/6,15,27
Dash attack
7/9
Utilt
7/8
Dsmash
6/9
Fsmash
13/15
Usmash
8/11
Spin attack
9/11
Standing grab
11/12
dash grab 13/14
Pivot
14/16

Zair
10/11
Nair
6/6
Fair
13/14
Bair
5/6
Uair
10/11

TL's faster with a few moves but not many.

Zair:
Link's Zair is faster by 1 frame (10 to TL's 11), hits 2 times for 4% then 6% (10% total, also better shield pressure and pokes) and is much longer, about what Ike's Fair reaches (which is nice). The second hit means if TL Zairs a shield that's it the move can't do more, but Link can Zair for shield pressure and poke with the 2nd hit if the shield's a bit low.
You have the idea floaty makes it better but Zair landing cancels the ending lag. If you're not used to fast fallers floaty seems better but a fast fall speed can work to Link's advantage. If Link landing cancels the move to jab he hits frame (7 frames to SH) 10-24 with 2 Zair hits>2 frames landing lag+5 frames jab start up=7 frames>jab 1>whatever. So there's 7 frames lag after Zair hits before jab or Dsmash does.
Landing faster literally means Link attacks faster http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LVeS5pMFPc&feature=player_detailpage&t=143

Link's Fair/Bair/Nair/Zair all landing cancel. Before it comes up, Link can hit any opponent (including G&W ducking) with Zair at any point in the attack with good spacing/timing.

TL has better air movement speed, which is just better than Link and higher jumps+floaty make him stay in the air longer and spam projectiles safer. He's very hard to chase down. Link's fast fall is a double edged sword; it let's him have a nice SH game (like Wolf's) and cancel lag by landing but his bad movement speed gets shield grabbed. It's a completely different playstyle; this is why people say Link is closer to Wolf than TL. You simply can't play Link like TL or vise versa. Different styles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnnN5oTq9t0

 

[Bomber7]

^ waffles

 

[Death Arcana]

TL's Zair is a terrible option. You don't see MJG or KingToon use it a lot because it 1. Has less reach and 2. Has only one hitbox. Floatiness has nothing to do with it at all. As a recovery move, once again it has shorter reach, airdodge or not. Link's Zair is better than TL's in every aspect.

dude what?
Toon Links Zair is detrimental to his close game without it we have nothing to pressure shields safely
and its shorter than links sure, it still outranges everything mk and marth have, the 2 big zoners
we are also faster in the air so we can approach or retreat zair faster than Link
and toon links don't use it often at all as a recovery move because it does not snap to the edge like other tethers (zss,sheik,olimar)
therefor can be punished.
and yes MJG uses it a lot because its critical to our gameplay
zair should be like 25% of the moves used in a match for us

@
Rizen
ill look at your post when i get back

 

[Anonano]

I don't think detrimental means what I think you think it means

In terms of ground moves, TL has much better follow-up options in terms of spamming than Link does. His arrows and bombs move slower (boomerang is the same as Link's, but I'm just guessing there) and with TL's movement speed, it allows for him to get to his opponent in time to take advantage of the opening it creates when it hits. Having those attacks as legitimate follow-ups makes the ground game seem excellent when it might not be quite that amazing.

Let's get into the nitty-gritty details of zair guys

First off, I disagree with Rizen in terms of TL zair usage. Most TLs I've played/watched use it pretty often.

Next, Zair is a shield-pressure option for Link as well, "King" .

And finally, THE BIG ESSAY YAAAAARGH I THOUGHT I WAS DONE WITH THESE IN HIGH SCHOOL: There's a couple of different ways to approach this discussion:

You can talk about zair as a move. Both have the same startup time, cooldown time, and landing frames (0). Link's has a better reach and a chance for a second hit. It has superior shield pressure capabilities. It has superior damage output. Both can be used for ledge shenanigans. Link's can also be used legitimately as a recovery move. In terms of the move itself, Link's zair is the superior version. It's childish to fret about this, however--a move analysis is superficial at best.

You have to look at the move in the bigger picture of the characters' playstyles. Both use zair to outspace other characters. When zair connects, both can follow-up on zair even at full range. Both use it as a legitimate shield pressure. Link: because of his falling speed (making timing less relevant), does more damage with the second hit. TL's can outrange many opponents, has air maneuverability to make zair safe at most ranges(making timing less relevant), and TL can get a solid follow-up of his choice even at maximum range while retreating in the air. Link's zair does more damage, but TL's can set up for usmash.

Zair serves roughly the same purpose in both character's playstyles. All things considered, the damage it does to opponents is about similar. They're pretty freaking equal. They're supplementary moves.

I'd write more and give a good summary but writing this is boring me beyond my imagination, so you guys can come up with one. Oh, wait, here's a good mushy summary: both use them in the same way and so they are pretty much equally as good. The end goodbye

 

[Rizen]

^Did you read my post?

First off, I disagree with Heero in terms of TL zair usage. Most TLs I've played/watched use it pretty often.

Fixed.

A few things:
Link's Zair is 1 frame faster.
Link has followups TL doesn't that I know of. Like Boomerang>arrow lock or jab lock. Link spaces with projectiles for openings and TL for damages more. Link's Zair is a big part of SH spacing. Link falls aerials and TL rises more, except Zair.
TL's Zair covers landing. Link's is used considerably more to space with, pressure and wall off opponents; the uses are pretty different. Link's Zair chains to attacks at least as well as TL's.

TL;DR there's no way the Zairs are equal. Link's Zair in the first hit phase is like TL's but faster and it continues for 6% more damage and better reach.


TL can move backward with Zair faster but Link's Zair extends farther faster, hits 2 times and is safer.

^I think the actual hitbubble is the same size and the Link pic is zoomed out farther. Zair might reach a little farther than shown too.

 

[Tesh]

Toon Link can follow up zair with nair/bair. It should be pretty obvious to anyone that Link has a better Zair than Toon Link. Toon Link is just a better character so he can do more with it.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Dear Link mains,

Please leave me your regards after reading this: http://www.zeldainformer.com/news/rumor-zelda-u-a-sequel-to-twilight-princes

Love, an indifferent fan on this idea.

 

[Bomber7]

To all you guys with your stupid big posts: waffles.

 

[Anonano]

DS4 and I are still waiting for you to play blackout roulette fyi.

 

[Bomber7]

I played blackout roulette and landed in Huston.... I'm a wanted man currently.... I have to keep a low profile. So getting to a public place like a bar and making it out of Huston alive is kind of a tricky thing...

 

[Tesh]

Dear Link mains,

Please leave me your regards after reading this: http://www.zeldainformer.com/news/rumor-zelda-u-a-sequel-to-twilight-princes

Love, an indifferent fan on this idea.

Twilight princess is my favorite zelda game (only one that held my attention long enough to finish it). I'd be really disappointed to see motion controls go just to justify the gamepad. Zelda and mario galaxy did motion controls better than any game on wii.

Interesting if true. Comparing half the game to "one big water temple" doesnt sound like a good selling point though...

 

[Rizen]

(It's too good to be true.)

 

[Huggles828]

Wow, lots of stuff.

Link's biggest weakness is his lack of mobility combined with his sluggish moveset (that's the real killer). His recovery sucks but saying his recovery sucks and makes him bad is like saying don't worry about IC's CG, your opponent might mess it up (Links kinda need to have good DI just to have a chance).

In terms of the move itself, Link's zair is the superior version. It's childish to fret about this, however--a move analysis is superficial at best.
You have to look at the move in the bigger picture of the characters' playstyles.
Zair serves roughly the same purpose in both character's playstyles. All things considered, the damage it does to opponents is about similar. They're pretty freaking equal. They're supplementary moves.

This. All of the this.

Finally, Twilight Princess was my least favorite Zelda game. So I'm not sure how I feel about this new one being a direct sequel but it still looks cool.

And that is all.

 

[Rizen]

I use the differences between TL and Link for examples of why mobility's important in various discussions. People assume Link's a bad character and TL's a high tier so TL's everything>Link's everything but that's not true. The simple point is TL is a spacing character who can space and Link isn't.

For actual games isolating 1 move is pointless, especially for Link who needs to use all his moves. There is some value to knowing which moves are better for example Link's bombs going through TL's bombs is good to know in the MU.
Link's Zair can work like TL's at the start then continue for the 2nd hit and is the better one. Why that's important, even if TL spaces better, is some people assumed Link MUST be at max range to Zair, couldn't use it close and couldn't hit ducking opponents (yes this actually came up twice on different forums). If Link's Zair was even or worse that TL's, Link would be a worse character than he really is as Zair is one of his best spacing tools. Link needs the better Zair to wall out grabbers.

 

[Tesh]

Zairs are broken. It would be unfair if a good character had one.

 

[Bomber7]

zair = poke. poke = get to do whatever you want and get away with it

 

[Tesh]

If Samus wasn't so tall.....

this game would be pointless because of her zair.

 

[Bomber7]

Dude, first time I played Xyro's samus, I'd get hit with her zair the second I jumped. I felt useless.

 

[Rizen]

Zairs are nice. Bowser or Ganon vs Samus is just hell trying to chase her down.

In Melee Link's air speed was better and he was a much better character in the middle of the roster. http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list That alone shows how important mobility is. Hopefully in SSB4 Link will get some buffs in speed and mobility. It's supposed to be closer to Melee.

 

[Bomber7]

Link getting buffs? LOL! I'm going to like your comment because that was a funny joke you made there buddy.

 

[Rizen]

Link getting buffs? LOL! I'm going to like your comment because that was a funny joke you made there buddy.

He got buffs in Melee and SSB4 is supposed to be closer to Melee. I figure if Florida went blue in the last 2 presidential elections anything's possible http://www.npr.org/news/specials/election2008/2008-election-map.html#/president?view=race08

 

[Bomber7]

I don't consider Melee Link a buff.....

 

[Rizen]

I don't consider Melee Link a buff.....

Oh . Still Melee Link was better than Brawl Link so it's a possible step forward.

Edit, I just drew a T-Rex
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/977/zazv.jpg

 

[Bomber7]

Yes, I will agree with you on that. I just view Link got progressively worse. They took Link from 64, split his capabilities in half and gave one half to Young Link. Then they took that half from Melee Link, gave it to Brawl Link and then gave the other half to Toon Link. So mathematically speaking, Brawl Link is only half of what Melee Link is, and 1/4 of what 64 Link is. The only good thing about Brawl Link is his recovery. The distance is better than the other two, but I will give Melee Link's up special credit for being the most ridiculous kill move when used on the ground.

 

[Rizen]

^Except in Melee Link could bomb himself to recover so Melee's was the best recovery.