Landing Lag/Generalized Frame Data Thread (Training Mode Tested// All 76 chars)

Bakasama

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I just wanted to point out that Sonic can still side b spinshot. Funny enough even the CPU does it now.
I just tested this for awhile and you're right, I have no idea how this is different or even if it is, maybe I'm going crazy. I'll update the OP to amend this.

@Rawkstar Falcon Bair, Nair, and uair autocancel out of shorthop, you can double jump out of shorthop uair. I will write this into the OP, I forgot.
ZSSandwich ZSSandwich ZSS Paralyser still combos into flipkick!

Thinkaman Thinkaman Samus Uair has dragging capabilities and a finishing hit. It combos into itself and upB at lower %s. I don't really remember if it was just the limp-wristed 64/Melee/Brawl one before still.

punkonjunk punkonjunk I checked those things and added them to the OP!

Litany Litany Lucian19 Lucian19 Uptilt does not have armor, I was mistaken. A separate effect present in a special match in single player must have confused me.

K kendikong I can tell you, now that I've checked, that most characters can combo from dair until about 100% (against Mario). An exception is Ganondorf who is too strong and can only combo off of dair until about 70%. Ike can dair to uair for a kill at 100%. Falcon can dair to knee at 90% for a kill from center stage. If the stars align on your turnip count, villager/isabelle can dair to uair for kills at over 120%. Isabelle can dair to usmash at 120%. You pretty much get the picture, I'm sure Rob/Robin/Luigi etc have stuff as well.
 
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jrgu

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Are you sure that the landing lag data is 100% correct? E.g., when I measure sheik's fair, I get 5f instead of 4f. When measuring Young Link's nair, I get 6f instead of 7f. With both characters, you can hold down b as you fastfall the aerial and they'll do a distinct pose on the first frame of their down b.

Maybe I'm missing something here though.
 

Bakasama

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Are you sure that the landing lag data is 100% correct? E.g., when I measure sheik's fair, I get 5f instead of 4f. When measuring Young Link's nair, I get 6f instead of 7f. With both characters, you can hold down b as you fastfall the aerial and they'll do a distinct pose on the first frame of their down b.

Maybe I'm missing something here though.
Those are just the numbers i got, I tested with shield and first frame of shield has no bubble.
 
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JohnKnight416

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Ryu_Ken

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Found some footage from Youtube on Wavedashing in Ultimate.

Can't really tell how useful it actually is since this video doesn't show how fast you're able to act out a wavedash compared to melee nor does explain to us whether or not wavedashing benefits certain characters more than others.

Btw, here's a thread post that I created specifically on Wavedashing in Ultimate:
https://smashboards.com/threads/wavedashing-in-ultimate-is-it-any-useful-compared-to-melee.464377/
Nor does that video explain how a wavedash is done or whether or not we still need to short-hop in order to wavedash. Which reminds me:
Bakasama Bakasama I don't mean to nit-pick your already amazing work, but I noticed that despite mentioning all these nuances to dodging, shielding, and movement, wavedashing is not mentioned or noted in the OP once (aside from Ryu/Ken's "unique wavedash"). I just found it odd because you're coming from a Melee perspective, so I thought that would have been one of the first things you tested.
 

HFlash

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Good stuff! Thanks for the sharing the wealth. Quick Q: Does C sticking aerials with smash still cause momentum stifling like it did in smash 4?
 

Bakasama

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Good stuff! Thanks for the sharing the wealth. Quick Q: Does C sticking aerials with smash still cause momentum stifling like it did in smash 4?
It does not, but as I noted in the OP it still causes you to get the other direction's input for 1 frame, its just that forward momentum is strong enough that it doesn't really affect you that much in Smash Ultimate. I will make a special note that it doesn't seem to 'choke' you anymore.

Ryu_Ken Ryu_Ken I will make a special note to say that 'wavedashing' is still based on friction, However, the lag being listed as '18 frames' was basically my way of saying 'its pretty bad all around'.

It has been pointed out to me that Zelda's sideb not causing freefall was not listed. This is notable and I forgot to mention it. I also added that Sheik's grenade does not cause freefall.

I forgot to write out that uptilt on Ganon has no armor, even though I specifically said in the thread in an edit that it does not and I would change it. I have amended this. I tried to stray away from things related to armor in the OP because there's no fantastic way to measure the strength or duration of the armor without extended testing, with Ganon it was something i was tricked by during an 'event match'. It's important to note that nothing else in the OP is based on single-player experience, I just thought armor on Ganon was so notable that I wrote it in without thinking, like a goofball.
 
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127th

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Would it be possible for the first couple hits of Pit's neutral air to combo into an up smash around 120%? I saw you mentioned jab/down smash stopped linking around 100%. So that got me thinking if up smash could kill confirm. If possible.
 

Bakasama

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Would it be possible for the first couple hits of Pit's neutral air to combo into an up smash around 120%? I saw you mentioned jab/down smash stopped linking around 100%. So that got me thinking if up smash could kill confirm. If possible.
Nair never combos into upsmash, it hits too far away at higher %s and it doesn't combo at lower %s
 
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Any chance you could confirm whether or not Dr. Mario's side B deflects projectiles upward rather than horizontally? I've seen a lot of people claim it has new properties, but the only piece of evidence I've seen is Doc appearing to side B a Launch Star, which then lifts upward. Of course, the Launch Star will float upward after being thrown normally.

Thanks!
 

Bakasama

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Any chance you could confirm whether or not Dr. Mario's side B deflects projectiles upward rather than horizontally? I've seen a lot of people claim it has new properties, but the only piece of evidence I've seen is Doc appearing to side B a Launch Star, which then lifts upward. Of course, the Launch Star will float upward after being thrown normally.

Thanks!
I tested this on Falco's lasers and Mario's fireballs. The cape acts identically to Mario's as far as I can tell, from active frames, to size of the active hitbox.
Both capes send straight back, can turn opponents around even on the ground without waking them, and in midair it turns them around and pops them up just a little bit. Also both reverse controls for awhile after turning someone around (Mario's definitely does, I think Doc's does as well.) Mario's cape pops Mario up in midair just a bit, Doc's does not (like in Smash 4).
 
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I tested this on Falco's lasers and Mario's fireballs. The cape acts identically to Mario's as far as I can tell, from active frames, to size of the active hitbox.
Both capes send straight back, can turn opponents around even on the ground without waking them, and in midair it turns them around and pops them up just a little bit. Also both reverse controls for awhile after turning someone around (Mario's definitely does, I think Doc's does as well.) Mario's cape pops Mario up in midair just a bit, Doc's does not (like in Smash 4).
Awesome, thank you for clearing this up! Much appreciated!
 

Porygon2

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Do the Ridley recovery angles seen here correspond to your findings? Really curious if this move has some mechanic to be discovered, if its bugged, or if its intentionally designed badly.

Edit: Here's another good one.
 
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I may make a thread about this, but the initial dash mechanics are more complex then they appear, and the characters seem segregated along what actions they can buffer from varying frames.

Basically, a YouTuber/Twitter user named qr99st figured out quite a few things:

1.) There is a generalized option deadzone between frames 7-14 of the initial dash.

2.) One set of characters (dash-backers, as he calls them) can buffer a dashback during the deadzone frames, allowing for easier back dashing.

3.) The other set (dubbed, Turners) can do a slide turn as early as frame 12.

4.) It takes two frames of neutral stick position out of a dash to enable a jab or tilt attack.

5.) Dashbackers, therefore can execute tilts or jabs as early as frame 17. Turners, by comparison, can execute jabs and tilts exactly on frame 15.

6.) Turners also have access to shield, crouch, and roll at frame 12, whereas Dashbackers must wait till frame 17+. Qr99st notes that Cloud (a Turner) can shield at frame 12, but the earliest Rosalina (a Dashbackers) can raise shield is frame 24.

7.) In addition, given that sliding tilts are a thing, Turners have access to sliding tilts three frames before Dashbackers.

8.) Dashbackers can more easily disguise their RAR backairs.

Qr99st wasn’t able to test out every individual variation, but confirmed general trends.

They wrote up an in depth document here:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/62262478/initial-dash-mechanics-ultimate

And made a YouTube video summarizing the findings here:

 
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I may make a thread about this, but the initial dash mechanics are more complex then they appear, and the characters seem segregated along what actions they can buffer from varying frames.

Basically, a YouTuber/Twitter user named qr99st figured out quite a few things:

1.) There is a generalized option deadzone between frames 7-14 of the initial dash.

2.) One set of characters (dash-backers, as he calls them) can buffer a dashback during the deadzone frames, allowing for easier back dashing.

3.) The other set (dubbed, Turners) can do a slide turn as early as frame 12.

4.) It takes two frames of neutral stick position out of a dash to enable a jab or tilt attack.

5.) Dashbackers, therefore can execute tilts or jabs as early as frame 17. Turners, by comparison, can execute jabs and tilts exactly on frame 15.

6.) Turners also have access to shield, crouch, and roll at frame 12, whereas Dashbackers must wait till frame 17+. Qr99st notes that Cloud (a Turner) can shield at frame 12, but the earliest Rosalina (a Dashbackers) can raise shield is frame 24.

7.) In addition, given that sliding tilts are a thing, Turners have access to sliding tilts three frames before Dashbackers.

8.) Dashbackers can more easily disguise their RAR backairs.

Qr99st wasn’t able to test out every individual variation, but confirmed general trends.

They wrote up an in depth document here:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/62262478/initial-dash-mechanics-ultimate

And made a YouTube video summarizing the findings here:

That's.... surprisingly confusing for me. I usually understand this stuff much easier.

EDIT: Like, what about thw first seven frames? And what exactly is the difference between the dash-backers and turners? Historically, turning was only usable for RAR, otherwise you would just skid and look dumb.
 
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JohnKnight416

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I may make a thread about this, but the initial dash mechanics are more complex then they appear, and the characters seem segregated along what actions they can buffer from varying frames.

Basically, a YouTuber/Twitter user named qr99st figured out quite a few things:

1.) There is a generalized option deadzone between frames 7-14 of the initial dash.

2.) One set of characters (dash-backers, as he calls them) can buffer a dashback during the deadzone frames, allowing for easier back dashing.

3.) The other set (dubbed, Turners) can do a slide turn as early as frame 12.

4.) It takes two frames of neutral stick position out of a dash to enable a jab or tilt attack.

5.) Dashbackers, therefore can execute tilts or jabs as early as frame 17. Turners, by comparison, can execute jabs and tilts exactly on frame 15.

6.) Turners also have access to shield, crouch, and roll at frame 12, whereas Dashbackers must wait till frame 17+. Qr99st notes that Cloud (a Turner) can shield at frame 12, but the earliest Rosalina (a Dashbackers) can raise shield is frame 24.

7.) In addition, given that sliding tilts are a thing, Turners have access to sliding tilts three frames before Dashbackers.

8.) Dashbackers can more easily disguise their RAR backairs.

Qr99st wasn’t able to test out every individual variation, but confirmed general trends.

They wrote up an in depth document here:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/62262478/initial-dash-mechanics-ultimate

And made a YouTube video summarizing the findings here:

This looks like something that will be worth exploring further in-depth in the future when we start searching for new techniques that have yet to be discover in Ultimate
 

Bakasama

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Do the Ridley recovery angles seen here correspond to your findings? Really curious if this move has some mechanic to be discovered, if its bugged, or if its intentionally designed badly.

Edit: Here's another good one.
Yeah, those are my angles. It's intentionally designed 'badly' as to have straight up, mostly down and a bit forward, mostly forward and a bit down, and mostly back and a bit up.

Minordeth Minordeth I'll have to look into this myself before verifying this, but I will refer to the post in the header.
 
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That's.... surprisingly confusing for me. I usually understand this stuff much easier.

EDIT: Like, what about thw first seven frames? And what exactly is the difference between the dash-backers and turners? Historically, turning was only usable for RAR, otherwise you would just skid and look dumb.
At any time during the initial dash, a character has access to jump, dash attack, Usmash, and grab, much like other entries in the series. On frame 15, characters gain access to the ability to jabs, tilts, and other smashes.

In the first six frames of any character's initial dash, they can still change their momentum by inputting the opposite direction of the dash. Once frames 7 hits, you can no longer change the dash direction until after frame 14. However, some characters can turn 3 frames earlier, and gain access to shield 3 frames earlier, while the other characters can buffer a frame perfect dash back. The former characters can also can a consistent way to execute frame 15 perfect jabs and tilts and so on.

As an example of another application:

My guess is that what the characters have intrinsic access to would allow them to gain access to either longer pivot-canceled slide attacks as demonstrated by Chiroz, or buffer those options sooner.



Yeah, those are my angles. It's intentionally designed 'badly' as to have straight up, mostly down and a bit forward, mostly forward and a bit down, and mostly back and a bit up.

Minordeth Minordeth I'll have to look into this myself before verifying this, but I will refer to the post in the header.
Sure. I'm waiting to lab it myself, but his video is fairly straightfoward given the frame by frame documentation.
 

Twiranitar

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I may make a thread about this, but the initial dash mechanics are more complex then they appear, and the characters seem segregated along what actions they can buffer from varying frames.

Basically, a YouTuber/Twitter user named qr99st figured out quite a few things:

1.) There is a generalized option deadzone between frames 7-14 of the initial dash.

2.) One set of characters (dash-backers, as he calls them) can buffer a dashback during the deadzone frames, allowing for easier back dashing.

3.) The other set (dubbed, Turners) can do a slide turn as early as frame 12.

4.) It takes two frames of neutral stick position out of a dash to enable a jab or tilt attack.

5.) Dashbackers, therefore can execute tilts or jabs as early as frame 17. Turners, by comparison, can execute jabs and tilts exactly on frame 15.

6.) Turners also have access to shield, crouch, and roll at frame 12, whereas Dashbackers must wait till frame 17+. Qr99st notes that Cloud (a Turner) can shield at frame 12, but the earliest Rosalina (a Dashbackers) can raise shield is frame 24.

7.) In addition, given that sliding tilts are a thing, Turners have access to sliding tilts three frames before Dashbackers.

8.) Dashbackers can more easily disguise their RAR backairs.

Qr99st wasn’t able to test out every individual variation, but confirmed general trends.

They wrote up an in depth document here:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/62262478/initial-dash-mechanics-ultimate

And made a YouTube video summarizing the findings here:

I suggest posting this in the Mechanics & Techniques General.
 
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Neutral air with c-stick can happen when you input c-stick before jump (It's a 3 frame window and will cancel the start of a smash animation) causing the "a" input to buffer but not the direction. However if you jump the input c-stick during the jump animation it will buffer the aerial correctly and should give you momentum in the direction (assuming you are on smash c-stick). Inputing the same frame gives me mixed results though but usually does the correct aerial.
 
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thaddx

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so if landing lags are all either 4 frames or above, why is shield grabbing not a good default option?
 

Acute

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Chars done 76/76


*Feel free to request characters or specific pieces of info about characters. I will update the OP if I find issues with it or new important info. Check the bottom of the post for proof and what a 'stage unit' is.

I have the game early and am posting frame data for landing here. I don't have every character yet, but am testing in training mode frame by frame. I will also note some small other things about characters in the air here. I won't be doing iasa or anything like that, just exact landing lag (mid-move) and other small observations. Any time I say the word 'combo' i mean true combo, not a string. All combos are tested on Mario to give a base reading.

:GCLT: Dodging
Airdodge (Neutral) Landing Lag: 12 frames
Airdodge (Directional) Landing Lag: 18 frames

Airdodge invincibility data is character dependant
Airdodge (Neutral) Duration: 50~ frames. Invincible from frame 3-30~
Airdodge (Directional) Duration: 60~108 frames depending on direction? The more upward it is, the longer the duration. Invincible from frame 3-21.

You only get one airdodge per airtime until you get hit.
You can only interrupt frames 1 and 2 of neutral airdodge with zair. You cannot interrupt directional airdodges with zair.

Rolls still aren't homogenized but they're about 30 frames forward and 35 frames back. You're invincible from frame 4-16ish.
(For reference, I compared Link, Samus, and Bowser for this data to get a decent idea. Even Samus's isn't that bad.)

Airdodges and rolls do get worse when you spam them. I don't have statistics for that, these are just the fresh stats.

:GCRT:Shielding
You can hold B to prevent jumping, sidestepping, or rolling while tilting your shield.
Shield comes out on frame 1 (bubble visual on frame 2, but effect is active frame 1)
Shield-Activate is 2 frames long.
Shields can be released instantly (You must be in shield-up though, shield-activate must be complete)
You can perfect shield for 5 (or 6?) frames after releasing the shield.
Perfect shielding a single hit of a multi-hit move can result in perfect shielding the rest of the hits automatically, depending on the attack.
Shields last (untouched) for 5 and a half seconds.
Shields regenerate from pea-sized to full in 10 seconds.
Having your shield broken fully regenerates your shield the moment it breaks.
Your shield must be releasing to perfect shield; if a move strikes your shield, you cannot perfect shield it, this can include moves with multi-hit.
As far as I can tell you cannot shield-drop; I tried the corner buffer technique and the perfect-speed downward tilt on the joycon and pro controller, but not the Gamecube Controller. My 'flick' sensitivity was set to lowest as well.
Perfect shielding does not reflect projectiles. (There is a spirit that enables this feature, however.)

:GCZ: Grabs
Boost grabbing is still in the game. (Dash attack cancelled grab)
The grab timer is still the same it seems
Just like every other move, you can standing grab out of run instead of dash grab if you want

:GCUR::metaknight: Ledge Behavior


You have a variable amount of frames of invincibility on the ledgegrab number 1 (based on airtime and %. Higher airtime = longer, Higher % = shorter)
You have NO invincibility upon regrab at all
You can grab the ledge 6 times without being struck inbetween or landing, at which point all ledges become disabled to you for your 7th attempt.
Some characters lose 2 frames of invincibility when snapping ledge from below. Some lose 1 from pratfall or from snapping from below. Some lose none.
You can tether a ledge 3 times before it is untetherable. You do not get tethers back until you get back on stage. (This includes Ivysaur.)
Most, if not all tethers still hyper-extend when attempting to grab a ledge from afar.

:GCCN:Smash Attacks / The C-Stick
The stick now has sensitivity settings : You can set low, medium, or high 'flick sensitivity'. This applies to smashes/jumping/rolling/etc.
Smash Attacks can be 'primed' for 3 seconds.
Smash Attacks do not increase in power or knockback after their "maximum charge", which occurs 1 second into the charge.
IE: You can charge smash attacks for 2 extra seconds, but that's just to delay the release, not to increase their strength or knockback.
SMASH STICK: A single directional input comes with your smash attack input, you can visually see the character shift midair doing this. You can accidentally fast fall your downairs really easily with this unless you're super gentle with the stick input.
TILT STICK: This is an extremely gentle directional input, you barely shift midair at all doing it. You CANNOT CSTICK BUFFER ROLL OR DODGE? with the tilt stick.
While using the cstick does still input a directional for one frame, it is important to note that forward momentum in Ultimate is strong enough that this does not really stifle momentum. However, you can still end up fastfalling with dair, as I listed above.

:GCR:Dashing/Moving
Initial dash speed is NOT homogenized (there was a rumor about this?)
Dash duration is homogenized (19 frames)
Most, if not all characters don't really start moving positionally for about 4 frames of dash startup
You can cancel a dash with an attack 14 frames in (except upsmash, which still jumpcancels and can be done whenever) *
You can't cancel a dash with a plain duck or a shield
You can cancel run turnaround into anything
You can cancel dash turnaround into fsmash
You can only turn your dash around for the first 5 frames *
I would call the Smash Ultimate "Dash dance" more like "advanced fox-trotting" due to the limitations on turning around
You can still Reverse-Aerial-Rush but the timing is tighter, since you could re-turn around during your turnaround and end up facing forward
You are invincible from frame 9-12 of a footstool (as the jumper, not the faller).
Footstools are techable.
"Wavedashing" still has a distance based on character friction, however due to having 18 frames of lag associated minimum, its not as useful as dashback.
Platforms are still 'sticky', and are very difficult to fall off of. Only in certain scenarios can you knock or push someone totally grounded off a platform, and you yourself still cannot edgecancel or 'wavedash' off of a platform.

* Dash movement windows are not homogenized across the cast, documentation has been done by other members that find that some characters can buffer turnslide 3 frames sooner, among other things. Jump for more info.

:substitute:Items
Items can now be picked up with tilts.
Items can still be picked up in every other way (dash attack, aerial, airdodge)
Items picked up with the grab button midair do not initiate an airdodge (as per usual)
You can still boost toss by throwing out of jumpsquat.
You can interrupt dodge rolls on frame 1 or 2 by throwing an item.
You can interrupt neutral airdodge on frame 1 or 2 by throwing an item (this actually lets you be invincible for 1 frame)
You cannot interrupt directional airdodges with item throws (rip AGT)

:GCDL::GCUR:DI
DI is now visibly represented by a blue glowing line eminating from a character. It is too subtle to see during other effects or during normal attacks. It is extremely obvious during electric attacks that paralyze, and it updates with your controller inputs as you change them.

:GCD::GCA:
"Landing Lock"/ "False jab-lock": If you jab/ do a low damage/knockback move to a character who is on the ground, you will cause them to enter into the landing state that occurs when you hit the ground 'on your back'. This little bounce-up visual is long enough frame-wise that you can actually combo this into another attack in almost all cases. You can only jab someone who is on the ground twice before any attack will just make them stand upright. I mentioned the 'landing lock' because the animation that this relies on is very reminiscent of the landing lock combos on heavies in Brawl.

:ultmiifighters:Miis
There are no 'Default Miis'. You still have to create Mii fighters and pick custom moves.
Miis no longer have sizes, they're all one size.

:GCDpad: Taunts
Taunts can cancel after 49 frames. This is universal it seems with few exceptions.

:ultmario: Mario
Nair: 6 frames
Fair: 17 frames
Bair: 6 frames
Uair: 7 frames
Dair: 15 frames
Fullhop height: 3.5 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Interesting Notes: Mario can still get out two bairs or two uairs in one shorthop. Mario's dash dance is terrible because his dash goes 2 units, at which point he's too far away to really do much of a counter attack outside of Fsmash. Mario's head is still invincible during active upsmash. I'll probably have to come back to Mario since I wrote so much for everyone else! But he's still a great overall guy, even if the uptilt string was nerfed, he still can still string tons of upairs from an uptilt, into an upB.

:ultdoc: Doctor Mario
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 17 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 8 frames
Dair: 13 frames
Fullhop height: 3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.3 stage units
Interesting Notes: Head still invincible during active upsmash. Can shorthop autocancel bair, nair, dair, uair. Can shorthop uair into nair or uair. Can double jump before hitting the ground on bair (just barely). Downthrow combos into different things until about 110%. Upthrow combos early on. Nair is still a reverse sex kick. Downthrow combos into downB until about 85%. DownB is really strong, Doc doesn't lose any height off of it when mashed correctly, but he only gains like .3 units overall. Still, that makes it somewhat safe to use offstage as a finisher. Doc can still snap to ledge at the very first frame or two of super jump punch.

:ultluigi: Luigi
Nair: 8 frames
Fair: 13 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 7 frames
Dair: 12 frames
"Zair": 20 frames
New grab frame data:
Standing grab: 46 frame duration. Active 14-20. Reaches 2 units.
Dash grab: 51 frame duration. Active 16-23. Reach is the same effectively.
Pivot grab: 49 frame duration. Active 16-23. I am dubious about my ability to accurately measure this one.
Fullhop height: 4 stage units (just barely misses BF top platform)
Shorthop height: 2 stage units (just barely misses BF side platform)
Interesting Notes: Luigi's 'wavedash' friction is really high, so its bad like everyone else's. Zair isn't a Zair at all. It's a sucker on the vaccuum that detaches and falls down, dealing 6 damage. It can still to walls, not that it matters because Luigi will never use it to tether. DownB doesn't go anywhere midair but it has gained some new effects. Now tornado pulls enemies in, and it has intangible (green) invincibility for frames 4-8 grounded and from FRAME 1-7 airborn. Luigi has a frame1 stuffing move wow. You can only do one bair or nair per shorthop, but uair, dair, and fair are still quick and snappy. Downthrow is still really good and the vaccuum grab is actually pretty quick to come out. Downthrow combos into UpB up until about 110%. Luigi's sad kick taunt is always a true combo into upB among other things, and it's still a spike as well. Pretty sure tornado can't gimp the same way it used to, if it even can at all. Upsmash still has invincibility while active, and Green Missile has invincibility for frames 1-5 of release. Luigi's sad kick taunt is not cancellable, even after 49 frames.

:ultwario: Wario
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 10 frames // landing near the end of the move is 4 frames of landing lag
Bair: 16 frames // landing near the end of the move is 4 frames of landing lag
Uair: 7 frames
Dair: 18 frames
Fullhop height: 2.2 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: You can shorthop autocancel fair and bair. Nair combos into dash attack for awhile, stops by 100%. New dash attack is from Wario Land (shoulder bash), its pretty cool looking and active until he stops moving. Fastfall upair can combo into upair even at 100%. Wario's bike doesn't become available to him even if its eaten or destroyed, instead he has to wait about 8 seconds after this point. Wario's bike can be thrown around pretty much indefinitely, it doesn't lose health when its tossed, even if its tossed straight down or up. Wario's bike has HP that determines if it will explode (as per usual). Wario can still do the thing where he sprints off of battlefield and then smashes the bike into the ledge to 'drop it' on-stage. Fart takes like 1 minute 50 seconds to charge. Full fart from center stage will kill at like 70% unless your DI is really good probably. Wario dies first when he bite-suicides (atleast against Mario), I tested in VS and it does register as a win for opponent. Dtilt combos into dash attack at higher percents (near 100%) Overall Wario is speedier and atleast has a few combos and tricks for Wario fans. He'd be better with a fixed knockback aerial, but of course everyone in this game would be.


:ultbowser: Bowser
Nair: 15 frames
Fair: 14 frames
Bair: 23 frames
Uair: 17 frames
Dair: 34 frames
Fullhop height: 3.5 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Koopa Klaw: Grabs on frame 6, the move altogether is a 52 frame move if you whiff.
Interesting Notes: Bowsers arms are invincible when his tilts and jabs are active. Bowser's head is invincible while his upsmash is active. Bowser's shell is some sort of special invincible (green instead of blue) while upsmash is active. This might be intangibility? Bowser's feet are green-invincible while fsmash is active. Bowser's stomach is invincible for the entirety of down air, and while you're in freefall after up B. Bowser can still upthrow upair up until around 60%. It'll kill on a platform, but not from ground anymore. Bowser's upB will always snap to ledge from below instantly, even at the beginning or the end. Erroneously, Bowser's head is invincible on frame 1 of shield activate, and his arm is invincible on frame 1 of shield up. You can still grab the ledge with downB, even backwards.

:ultbowserjr: Bowser Jr.
Nair: 9 frames
Fair: 16 frames
Bair: 14 frames
Uair: 9 frames
Dair: 17 frames
Fullhop height: 3.2 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Interesting Notes: Dair combos into stuff until like 50%, which I believe is similar to Smash4. Mecha Koopas now bite their target, making them ungrabbable. Low damage/knockback moves (like Mario's fireballs) still gimp Jr's upB. There's actually not alot to say about Jr, other than he benefits from being able to run and attack.


:ultpeach::ultdaisy: Peach/Daisy
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 13 frames
Bair: 11 frames
Uair: 7 frames
Dair: 8 frames
Fullhop height: 2.5 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: You cannot float-cancel aerials for less landing lag (wasn't present in Smash 4 anyway). Peach is invincible during frames 8-10 of Toad counter. Toad is a 61 frame move if it misses. Turnip pluck takes 37 frames. Turnips now bounce once off the ground, this is purely visual, as they become duds after they hit the ground. Peach has invincibility on her head and arm/hand during active upsmash. SideB now goes a lot farther (its actually good for recovery), but doesn't explode on walls. If you sideB from a fullhop, it will cancel by the time you hit the ground. Fsmash now lets you select racket, club, or pan based on the angle you swing it at - you can see the selection visually change as you angle the move while you charge it, and you can change it whenever you want while charging. Hovering still completely halts upward momentum, so Peach can zip up and down like she can in Smash 4. Fastfall Dair1 combos into jab if you're frame perfect.

About Daisy: At first glance I couldn't tell you what the difference is about Daisy?


:ultrosalina: Rosalina
Nair: 8 frames
Fair: 16 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 11 frames
Dair: 12 frames
Fullhop height: 3.4 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.7 stage units
Interesting Notes: If the opponent is near the ledge or a wall you can jab1,2 them with luma for a long time if you're frame perfect. I set the CPU to SDI a lot but maybe they're stupid and don't SDI up to escape and fall off. You can still jab1,2 nair. Jab1 combos into dtilt and ftilt for some reason, at any %. Final hit of nair infront of rosalina can combo (from the ground) into other aerials until about 150% and it combos into upsmash at lower %s. Upthrow stops comboing into upair at about 60%. Pretty sure there's no more windboxes in the game, so you won't be seeing upair kill at like 2% anymore. Rosa's head is invincible during active upsmash and active uptilt. First few hits of fair can combo into things on fastfall until about 50%.



:ultdk: Donkey Kong
Nair: 11 frames
Fair: 17 frames
Bair: 11 frames
Uair: 15 frames
Dair: 14 frames
Fullhop height: 3.2 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Interesting Notes:Wind up Punch doesn't cause freefall. DK's arms and nose are invincible during the active parts of aerial Spinning Kong and Upsmash. DK's arm is invincible during the active part of all his tilts. DK's head is fully invincible for upair. DK's windup punch has his arm invincible if its NOT fully charged, if it is it's apparently not invincible? DK can still ding-dong, but you'll only ever get a kill off of it on a platform, otherwise the opponent is out of reach at kill %

:ultdiddy:Diddy Kong
Nair: 8 frames
Fair: 16 frames
Bair: 7 frames
Uair: 13 frames
Dair: 17 frames
Fullhop height: 3.6 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Interesting Notes: He is faster but a bit weaker. Dtilt clap stops comboing into upsmash longer before upsmash would kill. His dash length feels really good, it feels good to sprint and turnaround dtilt or uptilt. Diddy can still hoo-hah but upair is really weak. Diddy can still cancel his popgun without initiating an airdodge by holding one shield button ahead of time and then pressing the other to cancel. Diddy's flip kick is less laggy, but the kick part will consume upB. Flip kick and flip jump can be edge cancelled. Diddy's banana doesn't disappear when it strikes the opponent the first time. Think of the banana as having 3 counters. Hitting an opponent or picking up the banana reduces the counter (so you can effectively only hit an opponent twice.)


:ultlink: Link
Nair: 6 frames
Fair: 11 frames
Bair: 6 frames
Uair: 14 frames
Dair: 19 frames
Fullhop height: 3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.5 stage units
Bomb stats: Pull takes 39 frames. Detonation takes 11 frames. Throw takes 23 frames. Bombs have 60~ HP.
Interesting Notes: Link can infinitely recover with bombs it seems. Throw them down and blow them up, that's all it takes, you can also zdrop-detonate. Bombs can take roughly 60 damage before exploding on their own. Bombs can't be blown up in someone else's hands. Link's dtilt can't meteor anymore (dunno if it could in 4, could in melee). Link can shorthop bair and double jump, but cannot shorthop nair and double jump. Link can true combo almost anything off of bair1, even at 999%. Link can get most moves to combo off of fair1, even at 200%.

:ultyounglink: Young Link
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 7 frames
Bair: 7 frames
Uair: 15 frames
Dair: 17 frames
Zair: 9 frames
Fullhop height: 3.1 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.4 stage units
Interesting Notes: YLink can shorthop arrow. YLink can almost shorthop boomerang. YLink can shorthop nair double jump (barely). YLink can shorthop bair doublejump (easily). YLink can shorthop fair and get both hits out. YLink no longer has any meteors (no dair, no dtilt). Dash attack is still really strong. Can still leave bombs on platforms.

:ulttoonlink: Toon Link
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 11 frames
Bair: 8 frames
Uair: 13 frames
Dair: 23 frames
Zair: 8 frames
Fullhop height: 3.2 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Interesting Notes: Hit 1 of nair combos into dash attack until about 75%. First hit nair combos into upsmash until 50%. Downthrow stops comboing at about 50%. Upthrow stops comboing into upair at about 60%. Toon Link can shorthop arrow and boomerang. You can shorthop autocancel bair and nair. You can shorthop 'autocancel' fair by inputting another aerial afterward really close to the ground (nair is good for this). You can double jump after shorthop bair or fair. All aerials have air-to-ground-to-air combos (except dair, probably).


:ultzelda: Zelda
Nair: 15 frames
Fair: 15 frames
Bair: 16 frames
Uair: 12 frames
Dair: 12 frames
Fullhop height: 2.7 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: SideB no longer sets freefall. Downthrow combos into backair for a really long time. Nair can still drag the opponent with you. Nair combos into jab for a long time, but if you fast fall and land only 1 hit of nair, the opponent will fall out, so landing 2 hits of nair is required to drag them down at higher percents. You still can't shorthop autocancel fair or bair. Neutral B (Nayru's) is fully invincible from frame 4 to 13, this move is 54 frames long. Spirit Knight takes 70 frames to charge fully, at which point he will wait 53 frames to strike on his own. You can tell him to attack at any point, either while charging, or while he's waiting. Calling him to attack while charging will cause him to not form fully and initiate a weaker attack. UpB still combos into itself, and you could potentially land nair1,2,upB as a true combo.

:ultsheik: Sheik
Nair: 6 frames
Fair: 4 frames (this is the fastest landing lag in the game, predictably)
Bair: 7 frames
Uair: 13 frames
Dair: 22 frames
Fullhop height: 3.8 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.8 stage units
Interesting Notes: Sheik's grenade no longer causes freefall. Sheik still can't grab the ledge after fair (lmao Sakurai why). When Sheik stores needles midair she dodges, but you can also store them by double jumping ( You can jump out of needle charge). Sheik's hands are invincible during active upsmash. Sheik's head is invincible during shield activate. Sheik's up air still drags down. Uair1 isn't fixed knockback, but falling uair1 true comboes into a ton of things (even upsmash) well into 200%. SideB no longer causes freefall, and it can still grab the ledge. Aerial full needle toss still can true combo into bouncing fish. Downthrow still comboes like it did. I saw people saying Sheik was worse, I don't think she's worse. With the uair landing lag change atleast she can finish her food in a more normal way sheesh.


:ultganondorf: Ganondorf
Nair: 10 frames
Fair: 13 frames
Bair: 11 frames
Uair: 11 frames
Dair: 16 frames
Fullhop height: 2.7 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.4 stage units
Interesting Notes: First hit nair can combo into jab at certain percents. It can probably confirm a grab, or maybe even a sideb or upb. Upb is a lot stronger now, and if you whiff at the top its a strong hit. Erroneously, Ganon's head is invincible for shield activate, and his arm is invincible for frames 3-5 of shield release. Uptilt has no armor. Neutral B still has armor associated with it. You can still edge cancel grounded downB. Reverse up air can trip, and can also set up into ftilt or instant dash attack. It has an extremely weak hitbox and can't semi-spike like in melee, but it'll definitely send the opponent down and away slightly.


:ultsamus::ultdarksamus:Samus/Dark Samus
Nair: 9 frames
Fair: 14 frames
Bair: 14 frames
Uair: 18 frames
Dair: 12 frames
Zair: 8 frames
Fullhop height: 3.3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.5 stage units
Interesting Notes: Samus can shorthop autocancel nair,bair, uair, and dair. Samus can shorthop bair/uair double jump. Upair combos into itself and upB at lower %s midair. When recovering with bomb jumps, you stall out after you actually hit yourself with a bomb, slowing the time you can jump or bomb again out of it. This effectively halves the efficacy from Melee's perspective. You can act once you fall back down to the height the bomb hit you from. Dash attack no longer combos into screw attack, also the 'Shinespark' insta-kill doesn't appear to work anymore, as screw attack generally keeps the opponent in it, even at the top of its hitbox. Samus is invincible for frames 3-6 of grounded upB and frames 3-4 of aerial upB. Samus's shoulders and head are invincible during shield activate, and for part of shield release. Fair2 and 3 have fixed knockback and can combo into jab1 and potentially dtilt or upB. Upair can drag down but it doesn't have any true combos on landing.

:ultzss: Zero Suit Samus
Nair: 6 frames
Fair: 10 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 5 frames
Dair: 24 frames
Zair: 8 frames
Flip Kick: 35 frames
Fullhop height: 3.6 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.8 stage units
Interesting Notes: Fastfall upair combos into upair until about 75%. Upairs ladder in a true combo until 75%. Upair still combos into upB at lower %s. You can no longer edge cancel downB as far as I can tell (atleast not on battlefield platforms). Flip kick is invincible from frame 3-12 (basically from the start until the apex). You can autocancel all your aerials except dair. ZSS is basically the same character except faster, also her downthrow might be a bit more laggy at the end, but it still combos early on (near 0). Dsmash paralyzer still combos into flipkick.


:ultyoshi: Yoshi
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 12 frames
Bair: 12 frames
Uair: 8 frames
Dair: 17 frames
Fullhop height: 3.4 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.5 stage units
Interesting Notes: Yoshi's egg now can bounce once. It is able to bounce based on how long it has existed I believe. Yoshi's head is invincible during active forward smash. Yoshi's foot is invincible during active up smash.

:ultkirby: Kirby
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 8 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 7 frames
Dair: 16 frames
Fullhop height: 2.4 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: Kirby's foot is invincible during active utilt, up smash, and downsmash. Kirby's hand is invincible during shield release? Downair and drag-down fair true combo into jab for quite awhile. This is the best incarnation of Kirby since 64 or PM 3.0, but nowhere near as good as either of those. Kirby can run super fast while he has an opponent in his mouth. Dash attack can kill at later %s.

:ultmetaknight: Metaknight
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 10 frames
Bair: 11 frames
Uair: 9 frames
Dair: 9 frames
Fullhop height: 3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.3 stage units
Interesting Notes: This is the best Metaknight since Brawl / PM. This Metaknight is considerably quicker and more effective than Smash 4. You can fastfall upair (its very precise) and it combos into shorthop upair. Metaknight can still ladder, and it still true combos into upB. Backair can still drag down and Forward air can drag down now (if you get hits 1 and 2). First hit fair combos into upB at kill %s, and both moves combo into tons of stuff at tons of %s as well as confirming grabs. Metaknight is invincible the frame before he disappears in dimensional cape, and he is invincible for 11 frames after coming back (with no attack) or 3 frames coming back with a sword swing. The only thing that could make metaknight better is giving him back his Brawl tornado lol


:ultkingdedede: King Dedede
Nair: 10 frames
Fair: 18 frames
Bair: 13 frames
Uair: 13 frames
Dair: 18 frames
Fullhop height: 3.3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6? stage units
Interesting Notes: Dedede's initial dash is quite fast, so he can close a small gap for a grab pretty well. Backair is a totally new animation that is purely horizontal. Uptilt has invincibility on Dedede's head. Downthrow upair drag-down loop is still a thing. Dedede can still only manage to do shorthop backair or shorthop nair 'clean'. You can still run off the stage and stick a gordo to it. If you spit out the enemy near the apex of your jump, you can actually fox-trot and catch up with the star as they travel in it, causing a mixup where they have to jump, airdodge, or get hit by Fair.


:ultfox: Fox
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 18 frames
Bair: 9 frames
Uair: 13 frames
Dair: 17 frames
Fullhop height: 3.7 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.8 stage units
Interesting Notes: Downsmash has his legs invincible while active. Shine comes out on frame 2 and is invincible for frame 2 and 3. Shine's hitbox is active on frame 3, obviously still can't jump out of it. First hit of upair is fixed knockback still and registers a combo with upsmash afterward (atleast in training mode). This works even at 999%, it really is fixed knockback. Fox fair no longer has dragging effect, striking with falling fair hit1 only will pop the opponent up and away. Jab 1 and 2 have fixed knockback, I don't think you can get anything off them other than jab3 though. Down air can still confirm into things like upsmash in certain situations, and it is a true combo.

:ultfalco: Falco
Nair: 9 frames
Fair: 15 frames
Bair: 13 frames
Uair: 9 frames
Dair: 14 frames
Fullhop height: 4.8 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.9 stage units
Interesting Notes: Falco's fastfall nair can combo into upsmash, jab, utilt, ftilt, and grab at any %, even 999%. Falco's landing uair can true combo into dair even at percents as high as 160% on some characters. Falco can true combo landing nair into jab, and probably can confirm a grab off of it. Falco's legs are invincible during active downsmash and upsmash. Falco can shorthop single laser, but it won't hit anyone normally, no one is 2 units tall in idle.

:ultwolf: Wolf
Nair: 9 frames
Fair: 10 frames //// landing at the end incurs 4 frames
Bair: 15 frames // landing at the end incurs 4 frames
Uair: 10 frames
Dair: 19 frames
Fullhop height: 3.4 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: SideB causes freefall, even if you hit with it. You can shorthop autocancel fair and bair. Rising shorthop shine cancels by the time you land. It doesn't true combo into anything, I once at around 60% staggered the input barely after shorthopping and comboed it into fair, but realistically it just pops the enemy up and away, putting them at slight disadvantage. At %s under 100, nair and fair combo into things near the ground. At around 50%, upthrow stops comboing into aerials, and downthrow stops comboing into instant dash attack. Inner hitbox of dash attack sends straight up, outer hitbox sends out like a football kick. Inner hitbox of dash attack combos into stuff until about 85% but the timing is tight. There are extremely specific %s that nair and fair will set up into sweetspot illusion (on Mario atleast). Wolf is a powerhouse but his combo potential is lower than Falco and Fox's most likely. Still, his hits are devastating, and his initial dash length is pretty nice for step-back counter attacking. Also, for anyone curious, his upB is not the 'twist' custom move from Smash 4, it does not just completely destroy people (it sends mostly outward at the end)


:ultpikachu: Pikachu
Nair: 9 frames
Fair: 12 frames
Bair: 18 frames
Uair: 14 frames
Dair: 22 frames
Fullhop height: 3.4 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Interesting Notes: Pikachu's fair retains the ability to drag down. Pikachu's new nair actually drags the opponent a lot more effectively. Landing nair true combos into upsmash even at 200% (atleast training mode thinks so). You can no longer ledge cancel or soft-platform cancel quick attack.

:ultpichu: Pichu
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 12 frames
Bair: 18 frames
Uair: 11 frames
Dair: 22 frames
Fullhop height: 3.6? stage units
Shorthop height: 1.9? stage units
Interesting Notes: Pichu's ears are invincible during upsmash. Pichu is entirely invincible during the first 4 frames of downsmash. Pichu's ears are invincible during shield activate and for 5 frames of shield release. Pichu's ears are invincible for the first 3 frames of downair (the meteor part). Pichu no longer can avoid landing lag on his up B by finishing just above the ground. Pichu's upair is no longer fixed-knockback. Pichu's dragdown fair always true combos into jab, probably confirms a grab. Pichu falls faster than Pikachu, but runs the same speed. Pichu can crawl.

:ultjigglypuff: Jigglypuff
Nair: 9 frames
Fair: 9 frames
Bair: 11 frames
Uair: 9 frames
Dair: 15 frames
Fullhop height: 1.8 stage units
Shorthop height: .9 stage units
Interesting Notes: Bair turns Jiggs around which as far as I'm concerned is an insult. I have tried many ways to try to prevent the turnaround and the only way to do so is to land before the moves is halfway over :( Fast fall upair is a true combo into rest until about 45% (on Mario). Fair combos into rest at pretty much exactly 40%. Rest starts to kill from ground level at about 70%, and it sends the opponent straight up with no DI. Rest (with the flower included) does 38 damage minimum. The flower wears off as the victim runs around, so to reduce the damage from rest they have to keep moving. The maximum damage the rest can do (with the flower) is 80%, but the opponent would have to be asleep at the wheel to actually take that much damage from the flower. Sing can still grab the ledge. Bair and Nair can ALMOST combo into rest at below 20%, maybe if someone was crazy and the stars aligned it would actually be a true combo. Bair does 13 damage. Landing fast-fall dair is almost safe, but its not safe. Rest is 3.5 seconds long and is invincible from frame 1 - 27. The hitbox is out on frame 2 or the game is just figuring out that its hitting on frame 1 because of the special effect that rest causes on-screen. Dair is the only thing that doesn't autocancel on shorthop. Against fast fallers, pound can combo into rest at lower percents, also from 0 you can do reverse fast fall uair into rising pound into rest and its almost a true combo against Fox (a smart fox would shine out of it)

:ultmewtwo: Mewtwo
Nair: 10 frames
Fair: 8 frames // landing at the end incurs 5 frames
Bair: 10 frames // landing at the end incurs 5 frames
Uair: 8 frames // landing at the end incurs 5 frames
Dair: 11 frames // landing at the end incurs 5 frames
Fullhop height: 2.5 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Interesting Notes: So Confusion makes you go totally even with the opponent now frame-wise. If they don't have an aerial that comes out frame 4 they have to airdodge or they'll get hit with fair every time. Confusion midair sets up for fair every time, if the opponent 'guesses wrong' you can also do nair (which is frame 7 hitbox). Aerial confusion can hit grounded opponents, and it hits shielding opponents. Confusion has a bigger 'grab box' that is about 1.5 units in diameter, and it doesn't pull the opponent to the center, it just spins them where they are so you can space with it. Nair still drags down and has fixed knockback/combos into things. I was able to do the Abadango disable motion, but I have no proof whether or not its a true 'combo' anymore. You have to be facing the opponent's eyes to disable them. Nair has hitboxes that pop out or put the opponent behind Mewtwo but it is predictable after you practice for awhile. Teleport can still ledge cancel and the AI actually does this regularly for some reason. Mewtwo is quick and snappy like he was, except probably even faster. Dashback is a little too long to step-back reverse ftilt or dtilt but approaching/sliding dtilt feels pretty good, as well as reverse sliding uptilt. Mewtwo's head and tail are invincible during shield release. Mewtwo is fully invincible for frames 10-16 of disable, disable becomes active on frame 16. You can shorthop autocancel all aerials except nair. You can double jump (barely) after shorthop fair,bair, and uair.

The only reason confusion is even remotely fair is because airdodge away protects you from most followups unless Mewtwo guesses correctly and follows you, but you still just got free damage from the confusion.

:ultpokemontrainer: Pokemon Trainer
Universal Notes: Pokemon switch is 40 frames long, you're invincible from frame 1-18~. Switching freezes you in midair, so it halts all momentum for the duration. Switching has a 3 second recharge. Pokemon cycle forward on death.The girl sounds more like Ash than the boy. You can pick your Pokemon on the character select screen.

:squirtle: Squirtle
Nair: 8 frames
Fair: 6 frames
Bair: 18 frames
Uair: 6 frames
Dair: 16 frames
Fullhop height: 3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.5 stage units
Interesting Notes: New bair is basically Falco's Smash 4 fair but backwards. Dash turnaround no longer puts Squirtle into his shell. Sadly though bair and dair have fixed knockback on their initial hits, dair is too laggy to combo from fastfalling it early and bair has a finishing hit when he lands, which knocks enemies away. Utilt is a true combo into itself until about 75%. It is a true combo into aerials until about 175% (which is crazy). Footstool no longer puts Squirtle into helpless-koopa state. Upthrow stops comboing at about 70%. Downthrow stops comboing at about 90%. Squirtle can crawl and wallcling. Squirtle's tail is invincible for active part of ftilt.

:ivysaur: Ivysaur
Nair: 16 frames
Fair: 13 frames
Bair: 7 frames
Uair: 11 frames
Dair: 13 frames
Fullhop height: 2.5 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.3 stage units
Interesting Notes: You can shorthop auto-cancel bair and fair. Uair does send you downward. The blast from dair is so large that at fullhop height it will hit grounded opponents, even if you're not directly over them. First hit of fastfall bair combos into jab if you're frame perfect. Utilt and usmash go through battlefield platform easily. Downthrow stops comboing into aerials at about 70%. If you fastfall razorleaf, you'll have about 6 frames of lag left when you land. Fast fall fair combos into other aerials until about 70% but the timing is tight. At 40%, fastfall fair combos into Vine Whip. Vine whip isn't that strong this time around. Bullet seed hit1 reliably combos into the rest of its hits, you can SDI it but even the CPU set to 'SDI a lot' is having trouble escaping. Ivysaurs aerial Vine Whip has an upward boost attached to it so you can recover even if you've used your 3 tethers. Dair has a lot of endlag, so the popup cannot be used for recovery.

:charizard: Charizard
Nair: 13 frames
Fair: 19 frames
Bair: 20 frames
Uair: 13 frames
Dair: 21 frames
Fullhop height: 2.8 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.4 stage units
Interesting Notes: You can shorthop autocancel nair. Fsmash head/neck is invincible while active. Upair head/neck is invincible while active. At the end of sideB, Charizard slides across the ground, you would have to fully double jump and initiate to avoid this lag. Backthrow has very little end lag, but it stops comboing into fair at around 40%. Downthrow stops comboing at around 70%. Reverse fastfall upair combos into itself until about 60%.


:ultlucario: Lucario
Nair: 5 frames
Fair: 9 frames
Bair: 14 frames
Uair: 13 frames
Dair: 12 frames
Fullhop height: 3.5 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.7 stage units
Interesting Notes: Characters with wall clings still have some form of the infinite wall recovery but its inputted differently, i think you have to mix wall jumps with wall kicks, either way lucario is never going to die if he's near a wall anyway. Downthrow stops comboing at like 40 or so, at max aura lucario couldn't kill with downthrow upair for a true combo from the ground. Lucario's aura charge causes enough shield stun that opponents with their back to a ledge can't do anything. If Lucario's aura is high enough that the aura sphere always touches the shield, even at its smallest, there is a high chance that this will force a shield break. I attempted to shield push to get lucario away but could not. I don't really know if its max aura that ensures the shield break, but the shield break will just cause your opponent to fall off stage and die. Shorthop first hit dair isn't a true combo with anything and you actually go very slightly minus doing it, but its extremely quick and disruptive.


:ultgreninja: Greninja
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 11 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 14 frames
Dair: 30 frames
Fullhop height: 4 stage units
Shorthop height: 2 stage units
Interesting Notes: Counter is fully-body invincible from frame 7-17, then his head and front leg are invincible still from frame 17-33; This is a 68 frame move. Upair still drags down so you can still get your familiar strings. Dtilt true combos into fair until about 160%. Fastfall Bair1 true combos into a lot (including downsmash) until about 220% - you have to get a certain part of the hitbox, and it usually causes knockdown right there, so getting a grab is difficult, and the opponent can tech it if you're not really really fast about your second move. Water is a bit less effective I think. SideB auto-escape seems funky, Greninja has the disappear effect, but he still gets hit (tested with Nayru's love, which is pretty big and active, maybe you could escape Fox's drill attack still, but i have no decent way to test that.)

:ultfalcon: Captain Falcon
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 18 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 10 frames
Dair: 12 frames
Fullhop height: 3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Interesting Notes: You can shorthop autocancel nair,bair, and uair. You can double jump out of shorthop uair. Nair 1 combos into knee until 110%, and after that it still combos into uair for awhile. End of reverse uair can no longer semi spike, now it sends pretty much purely horizontally. Utilt has legs invincible on the way down. Usmash has legs invincible while active. I think you can still combo uair to double jump fair on aerial opponents, i just dont have a great way to test this. Falcon's dash dance is actually terrible. It's a good distance to step away and do a retreating turnaround ftilt, dtilt or fsmash but his initial dash actually doesn't go anywhere for 4 frames which is super depressing and sticky and weird. Also you can't nair1 into grab anymore but its cool you can fastfall nair1 into fair.


:ultness: Ness
Nair: 8 frames
Fair: 12 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 8 frames
Dair: 12 frames
Fullhop height: 3.1 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.4 stage units
Interesting Notes: PK Flash no longer causes freefall. Ness can fullhop PK Fire and still double jump. Ness can shorthop double upair/double nair. Upair ends soon enough that you can get a first hit of fair off afterward in one shorthop. Psi Magnet has a frame 7 hitbox and is a 30 frame move with fixed knocback. You can shorthop psi magnet or landing psi magnet and actually GET A COMBO OFF IT??? Shorthop insta psi magnet combos into fair, nair,psi magnet and PK Fire. Landing psi magnet (which is risky) combos into jab, dtilt or grab. This is totally worthless because for almost all %s dragdown fair is better, but man its worth a million style points. Magnet is a poverty level melee shine - If you instantly double jump and magnet, you will get a speedy, downward angled magnet- doing this you can quick approach/push the opponent or even cross them up because you're in a state that is just barely over their head. You are moving so quickly you can get two flying magnets into a jab and that's a true combo (but only if you instant double jump magnet to get the downward angle while sprinting). Drag down fair combos into jab/grab/dtilt even until 200%. Ness's new upair can dragdown and it has its own true combos too. Commentators are gonna be peeing their pants when they see Ness do sprinting doublejump cancel double magnet into upsmash (for a true combo that works at any %)

:ultlucas: Lucas
Nair: 12 frames
Fair: 7 frames
Bair: 9 frames
Uair: 7 frames
Dair: 16 frames
Zair: 8 frames
Fullhop height: 2.4 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: You can fullhop PK Fire and still double jump before landing. Psi magnet isn't fixed knockback, but at near 0% it can set up into a quick combo from air to ground. Nair still drags and dair still drags a little. First hit dair combos into dtilt, jab, and maybe grab. Nair combos into whatever whenever it seems like (even combos into fsmash as high as 200%). Downthrow is slower, can't link into upair at kill %s anymore. PK Freeze sends horizontally, also no longer puts you in freefall.

:ulticeclimbers::ulticeclimbers: Ice Climbers
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 10 frames
Bair: 7 frames
Uair: 14 frames
Dair: 20 frames
Fullhop height: 3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Interesting Notes: Ice Climbers 'wavedash' is one of the only decent ones in the game because it stops having landing lag near the end of the slide. Ice Climbers can still desync but all the methods for doing so are different. You can't spotdodge desync anymore. You can desync Nana by giving her a buffered input near the end of a throw, in order to avoid Popo doing the input you have to buffer something for him later (walking forward or shielding works). You can desync Nana if you double whiff grab (one whiff isnt enough to get inbetween their timings). If you desync her by making her do a roll, she can actually be positioned to get a smash attack off of a throw, but the grab and the throw have to go off nearly instantly. If you do a dash grab you can keep inputting foxtrot or other things to get nana away from you, once she's about 4 units away, she tries to think of what she wants to do on her own. As long as you are grab whiffing, she won't care to fix her position. The moment she starts to run back to you (because you stopped trying to grab) you can input a move to desync Popo from Nana, then when she reaches you, you can have her do a move while Popo is interrupted. She can do any move on her own, including all B moves. Getting her to buffer a jump is super difficult though, I'm sure the Ice Climbers players will find like a footstool infinite or something, but it's nowhere near as easy as in any other game to actually get Nana to do something different consistently. One neat thing anyone could do is foxtrot toward the ledge and dash grab, then keep foxtrotting and Nana will fall off and snap to ledge and hang there while you're on stage waiting. Downthrow on its own is really good, it combos into upair until even 110%, at which point the upair would kill. Upthrow is laggier and basically performs the same way so it'll probably go mostly ignored. It is important to note that Nana can not recieve inputs while Popo has someone in a grab, even if Nana is desynced (as far as I can tell)


:ultmarth::ultlucina: Marth/Lucina
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 10 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 9 frames
Dair: 14 frames
Fullhop height: 3.4 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.8 stage units
Interesting Notes: Fast fall first hit nair can combo into fsmash or upsmash even at 200% lmao. Fair sends horizontally, can no longer set up for Ken combo. Fair at low percents combos into other attacks, at higher %s it can combo into dash attack, past about 50% it loses combo potential. Fastfall upair is good and has a ton of true combo options. Downthrow combos into upB for awhile. Marth is quick and snappy, and with the kill confirm he's especially dangerous. His sideb has a new air animation and isn't as good as melee / brawl but is better than smash 4 probably. Sword is same length as Smash 4, his fsmash goes just over 2 stage units across. Bair does turnaround like it did in Melee, I dunno how smash 4 worked. Jab no longer pops up, so jab no longer confirms into anything other than jab2. Tipper jab1 draws the opponent in so you never miss jab2.

:ultroy::ultchrom: Roy/Chrom
Nair: 9 frames
Fair: 8 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 8 frames
Dair: 14 frames
Fullhop height: 2.7? stage units
Shorthop height: 1.2? stage units
Interesting Notes: Roy can still confirm first hit nair into things, but it only true combos into jab or upB. First hit nair Can combo into upB even at 300%, so it'll net you kills whenever. Most likely characters won't be fast enough to do much if they get first-hit naired so you'll still get fsmashes. Roy still can do the thing from Smash 4 where he shorthop fairs and can double jump near the ground. Dashback turnaround dtilt feels really good, its like the retreating attacks you can do with all the characters in 64. Wet noodle hitbox of fastfall upair confirms into upb for well into kill %s.

About Chrom: Chrom really has all of Roy's moves except he has Ike's upB. I don't know why. I believe Chrom is the even-sworded version of Roy (so like Lucina is to Marth).

:ultike: Ike
Nair: 8 frames
Fair: 14 frames
Bair: 11 frames
Uair: 9 frames
Dair: 14 frames
Fullhop height: 2.5 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.3 stage units
Interesting Notes: Ike can only shorthop autocancel bair. Every aerials end lag is really long (even bair), to the point where using them offstage puts you in danger potentially. Upair can hit grounded opponents if you use the backside hitbox. It combos into other aerials until about 60%. At 50% downthrow stops being a true combo with uair. Upthrow's actual hitstun is pretty abysmal, but it always keeps the opponent pretty damn close to Ike, they are in danger of being hit up until about 125% - they can jump out, dodge, or try to trade, but they're in range of danger for sure. As a note, at around 110% upthrow to a connected upair would actually kill with bad or no DI. Fastfall nair can combo into upair until about 120%, at which point the upair would kill. Bair is still stupidly fast to come out.

:ultrobin: Robin
Nair: 11 frames
Fair: 11 frames
Bair: 11 frames
Uair: 11 frames
Dair: 16 frames
Fullhop height: 3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.5 stage units
Interesting Notes: Frames 16-18 of Nosferatu are invincible. You can swing levin sword 8 times, cast nosferatu 3 times, arcfire 7 times. Thunder is based on the strength of the charge, you can get atleast 2 max charges. Wind can be used 5 times. Dthrow combos into upair until 90%~ You can shorthop autocancel fair, bair, nair, and uair. You can double jump out of shorthop fair. Book tosses start to kill at about 250% from center stage. Sword tosses start to kill at about 150% from center stage. You can't grab someone out of arcfire unless they intentionally SDI down toward the ground. You can nosferatu out of arcfire. Thunder 3 is now too quick to combo from it it seems.

:ultcorrin: Corrin
Nair: 10 frames
Fair: 8 frames
Bair: 13 frames
Uair: 9 frames
Dair: 26 frames
Fullhop height: 2.8 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.4 stage units
Interesting Notes: Corrin can cancel out of a pin in the ground by pressing down, he can act after 19 frames if he's still in the air, or if he lands before then, he incurs 19 frames of landing lag. Pinning an opponent is still possible to achieve in 8 frames. You can only throw the pin out once per airtime. Downthrow kills at roughly 180% with no DI. UpB is invincible from frame 10-17 (so from frame 10 until he starts moving upward). Dashback fsmash is good, and you can initiate pin at any point during your initial dash, so its always available to you, and always a threat. Fastfall uair combos into aerials until about 60%. Dtilt combos into upair until 80%. Fastfalling nair's not-sword hit (nair2?) combos into fair until about 100%


:ultgnw: Mr. Game & Watch
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 17 frames
Bair: 18 frames
Uair: 12 frames
Dair: 22 frames
Fullhop height: 2.3 stage units (near perfect landing on battlefield platform)
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: He changes shape a lot, I'm sure you've seen in the trailers. Downtilt sends horizontally now, forward air is a bomb drop, uptilt is a two piece move, upair no longer has a windbox and instead is an upward multihit projectile, fsmash is slightly shorter and dsmash is quite a bit longer and buries the opponent when it tippers. Upsmash is still intangible from release frames 6-10. Downthrow is still really good for follow ups. He can airdodge out of upB. Chef's pan hitbox can send at a really harsh semi-spike angle. GnW cannot shorthop autocancel any of his aerials. Bucket-braking is still in and on the second bucket you can still fling yourself upward from a double jump. GnW is still invincible during frames 5-13 of upB. The cartridge ships with the 'Native American Fsmash' on it btw so get ready for that day 1 patch I guess rip. The fair bomb can kill on its own from center stage at around 160, and it does auto cancel if you fullhop and drop it. Nair still drags opponents and it combos into jab, grab, uptilt, ftilt, and downsmash forever due to its early hits having fixed knockback. Uair cannot hit grounded opponents. Overall GnW seems better.

:ultrob: ROB
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 9 frames
Bair: 13 frames
Uair: 13 frames
Dair: 13 frames (its nearly impossible to actually get landing lag with this move because of the popup though)
Fullhop height: 3.2 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Interesting Notes: Dtilt appears to trip about 1/3rd of the time, and can only trip at 75% or below..Dtilt combos into dash attack until 130%. Frames 2-4 of grounded upB are invincible. ROB might be the only character that can shorthop autocancel all his aerials. You can double jump after shorthop fair. The gyro can last potentially forever as long as you catch it when it bounces off the ground. From completely empty it takes roughly 15 seconds to get a full B-beam back. It takes roughly 2 seconds to get a regular beam back. The small light on his head signifies both statuses of the beam. ROB's downthrow buries now. First hit of upair sends up and behind ROB and combos into turnaround up-angled fsmash and ftilt until 200%.


:ultpit::ultdarkpit: Pit/Dark Pit
Nair: 14 frames
Fair: 12 frames
Bair: 11 frames
Uair: 14 frames
Dair: 12 frames
Fullhop height: 2.4 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: Grounded upB is invincible from frame 9-19 (who would use this??). Aerial upB is invincible from frame 15-19. SideB seems a little less active on the end but that might be me seeing things. Pit's upper body shifts considerably more in the first 4 frames of dash startup than any other character. Downthrow stops comboing around 70% and the timing is tight on true combos. Dair combos into usmash even at 150%. First two hits of nair combo into jab or dowsmash until 100%~. First hit of fastfall upair sends the opponent behind you with fixed knockback, and it combos into turnaround ftilt,fsmash, jab or probably grab. First hit of upairs hitbox more reliably sends behind you, but reverse upair can pop them slightly above you instead and can be used for other things like reliable upsmashes.

:ultpalutena: Palutena
Nair: 12 frames
Fair: 7 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 14 frames
Dair: 11 frames
Fullhop height: 3.2 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Interesting Notes: Bair and dash attack are intangible-invincible still. Palutena's air speed is fantastic, I don't know if its better than Smash 4 but it seems like it is. Counter is invincible from frame 6-12. You can edge cancel upB. Nair1 is fixed knockback and combos into utilt. Upair still drags down. Downthrow combos into upair until about 150%. Wings on fsmash and dsmash still have some wind attached, but its not very strong. SideB is explosive flame and it can go 4 units or 7 units. Both explosive flame and auto-aim can be used out of jumpsquat and end up initiating on the ground if you do use them during jumpsquat.


:ultolimar: Olimar
Nair: 13 frames
Fair: 9 frames
Bair: 9 frames
Uair: 18 frames
Dair: 18 frames
Fullhop height: 3.3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.7 stage units
Interesting Notes: Olimar still has full super armor for frames 2-6 of whistle (maybe a bit more, but no more than frame 8). He can still spam whistle, whistle is still a 17 frame move. First hit nair isn't fixed knockback, but it confirms into tons of stuff well past 100%. I wouldn't be surprised if it could net you an upsmash just because the opponent couldn't respond. First hit nair true combos into utilt, jab, and most aerials at tons of different % ranges but it doesn't "true" combo into smash attacks. Olimar seems pretty good overall.

:ultsnake: Snake
Nair: 16 frames
Fair: 19 frames
Bair: 19 frames
Uair: 15 frames
Dair: 20 frames
Fullhop height: 2 stage units (Snake can't even fullhop to the first set of battlefield platforms without using bair or dair)
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: Snake's sticky does still trade off when you run into the enemy or throw them. Snakes downair has this weird popup at the end, in conjunction with your double jump you can actually get a bit more height or distance during a recovery. Snake can still infinitely recover by dropping c4 beneath him over and over after using the cypher. Snake can airdodge after using the cypher. First hit nair can combo into jab or grab if you're precise. If you hit the first 2 hits of dair you can combo into jab or grab as well. Nair 1-4 has fixed knockback and can drag the opponent. Uptilt still does a ton of damage and has some pretty big range. Downthrow still works as a tech chase tool.


:ultsonic: Sonic
Nair: 10 frames
Fair: 17 frames
Bair: 19 frames
Uair: 14 frames
Dair: 22 frames
Fullhop height: 3.3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.7 stage units
Interesting Notes: You can shorthop fair, bair, and uair predictably, but still can't shorthop nair. Upair is 'done' as soon as the clap is done, at that point there's no landing lag. (4 frames?) You can hold SideB for 85 frames after it glows yellow, at which point it lets go. You can't hold downb forever. You can airdodge after upB. You can still spinshot! (Spinshot seems different to me but I think I'm just going crazy)

:ultwiifittrainer: Wii Fit Trainer
Nair: 8 frames
Fair: 8 frames
Bair: 12 frames
Uair: 9 frames
Dair: 12 frames
Fullhop height: 3.7 stage units
Shorthop height: 2 stage units
Interesting Notes: She can still stop momentum with deep breathing, she can still intentionally drop her ball. She can still crawl. First hit nair sets up into true combos for other aerials well into the hundreds% . Downthrow true combos into certain aerials until about 100%. She is quite fast, also boost grabbing is still in the game so that helps her a little.

:ultvillager: Villager
Nair: 8 frames
Fair: 14 frames
Bair: 14 frames
Uair: 12 frames
Dair: 12 frames
Fullhop height: 3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.5 stage units
Interesting Notes: Villager's initial dash forward animation is fantastic, he actually starts moving forward right away, so he gets out of the way of things sooner. Standing grab is active on frame 14, pivot grab on 15, dash grab on 16. Downthrow stops comboing into fair at about 75%. Dair grounded meteor stops comboing into upair at about 130%. Axe swing starts to kill at about 130% with no DI from center stage. Villager can shorthop autocancel all his aerials and can double jump after shorthop nair, fair, and bair. Pocket is invincible from frame 5-23; Pocket is a 50 frame move when it misses. Villager can still stall a little by blowing up loid rockets on the side wall of a stage and re-initiating them over and over, but its nowhere near as effect as in Smash 4. Watering can still pushes a little bit, but water overall has recieved a nerf. The tree being knocked over starts to kill from center stage at 65% with no DI. Villager's Balloons seem like they've been nerfed slightly but I can't really confirm this.

:ultisabelle: Isabelle
Nair: 6 frames
Fair: 14 frames
Bair: 14 frames
Uair: 12 frames
Dair: 12 frames
Fullhop height: 3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.5 stage units
Interesting Notes: As far as I can tell, Isabelle and Villager share all the same ground and airspeed and friction, but I can only eyeball these things. Jab combos into ftilt if you're frame perfect. Fishing rod reaches 5 units and reeled in opponents can be thrown in 4 directions; These throws are similar but not identical to Isabelle/Villagers normal net throws. You can still snag people while you're midair, and you still have access to all your throws while midair. You can pull people off of platforms, but it can be a little janky. You won't die if you double jump from the ledge and throw your line out to center stage. The hook is active on frame 25 of the throw. The opponent can be grabbed if the bobber is in midair no matter what. You can 'jiggle it' to get it to pop up if you set it out on the ground. Isabelle has less air control during UpB compared to Villager. Isabelle's balloons have 'stamina' and their stamina runs out a bit extra each time you 'flap' upward. Once you fully use your two balloons, it takes roughly 3 seconds for them to 'recharge', otherwise when you upB you'll have one balloon that is less effective and has low 'stamina'. So her balloons function basically like Villager's, but you get less out of them control-wise. Isabelle's planted Gyroid lasts for 10 seconds and can be set off by pressing down B again or due to an enemy stepping on it.

:ultduckhunt: Duck Hunt (jeez, I can't see the dog's entire head on the css, we must be playing as the duck lol)
Nair: 10 frames
Fair: 9 frames
Bair: 14 frames
Uair: 12 frames
Dair: 20 frames
Fullhop height: 3.2 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Interesting Notes: Duck Hunt can now cancel upB into an attack or a dodge after 56 frames- after that he will still enter freefall. The Duck is still part of your hurtbox all the time. Clay shoot now stays on the ground longer? Gunman's shot is more visible now, as it draws a line from it to the end of its hitbox. Fastfall fair combos into dash attack until about 70%. Uair2 still drags down, and it can combo into jab or grab on landing. Not a lot to say about Duck Hunt, he'll benefit from the one-airdodge rule with his can and clayshot off stage, but otherwise he's the same old beast.


:ultlittlemac: Little Mac
Nair: 10 frames
Fair: 18 frames
Bair: 17 frames
Uair: 13 frames
Dair: 18 frames
Fullhop height: 2.3 stage units (exact height of battlefield platform)
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: SideB no longer puts Mac into freefall. Neither does neutral B but i dunno if that did in Smash4. Can shorthop autocancel dair and nair. Frame perfect, next-to-the-ground nair combos into jab. At low%, fair combos into jab, ftilt, dtilt, and forwardB. At very low %s backair combos into ftilt. Upair also can combo at super low percents. It's important to note that basically all of these are absolutely terrible except nair. UpB is invincible from frame 1-3. Counter is invincible on frames 4-5. Mac's legs are invincible from frame 1-18 of forwardB. His head is invincible from frame 1-3 of sideB, and his chest is invincible from frame 1-4.

:ultshulk: Shulk (Default)
Nair: 6 frames
Fair: 10 frames
Bair: 11 frames
Uair: 9 frames
Dair: 14 frames
Fullhop height: 3.2 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Speed Fullhop height: 1.2 stage units
Speed Shorthop heights: 0.6 units

Jump Fullhop height: 6.7 units (wow)
Jump Shorthop height: 2.2 units

Interesting Notes: You can fullhop autocancel dair, like a really bad cloud lol. You can shorthop autocancel nair. Fastfall reverse uair1 combos into ftilt, utilt, dtilt, jab, and fsmash. To be clear, no Monado art decreases landing lag, but obviously things like speed and jump open up the possibilities. None of default shulk's throws true combo :( I'm sure speed or jump would help, but I'll leave it to the Shulk players to find the magic with this one.

:ultpacman: Pac-Man
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 10 frames
Bair: 13 frames
Uair: 10 frames
Dair: 12 frames
Fullhop height: 3.5 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.8 stage units
Interesting Notes: Pacman's hand's are invincible during shield activate. Pacman's uptilt is new, its a small upward punch - it is invincible while active. Fruit charges faster. Hydrant has same amount of HP, useful for veteran Pac players. Fair to keytoss is a true combo at a handful of percents. Bell,Galaga, Melon can only be picked up once, I believe this is a universal rule for all Pac items. Grab is a lot faster. Overall he's the same character with a boost to his speed and a nerf to his fruits somewhat.

:ultryu::ultken: Ryu/Ken
Nair: 5 frames
Fair: 11 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 11 frames
Dair: 15 frames
Fullhop height: 2.3 stage units (lands on battlefield platform perfectly)
Shorthop height: 1.4 stage units
Interesting Notes: Everything still cancels the same way. Correct input hadouken is still stronger. Correct input Shoryu is still invincible longer (frames 4-6 full body invincible, for the rest of the move its just the raising arm that is). Upair1 still can drag down, it true combos into jab, utilt soft, dtilt soft, grab, and shoryu. All aerials can be cancelled into specials on hit, thats new right?? I have to assume thats new. Ryu has a built in wavedash-back because his dashback keeps him facing the opponent, and its just the right distance to counter attack from as well. Ryu has new context sensitive moves: he has a strong jab when near the opponent that functions as a quick uppercut and he has a light ftilt when near the opponent that is an elbow which draws the opponent inward.

About Ken: Ken has a few kicks where Ryu has punches. Instead of Shakunetsu Hadouken as the half circle forward move, Ken has a quick kick move that has a light and heavy version. His frame data still seems similar despite having kicks instead of punches.


:ultcloud: Cloud
Nair: 9 frames
Fair: 11 frames
Bair: 8 frames
Uair: 9 frames
Dair: 16 frames
Fullhop height: 3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.7 stage units
Interesting Notes: Cloud is still dirty. Limit takes longer to charge, and you lose it if you don't use it for a few seconds. Limit Charge can still cancel instantly. Finishing touch will kill Mario at 90% (with no DI). Cloud is invincible during the first 7 frames of Limit Cross-Slash (so during the first slash). Cloud is invincible during the first 8 frames of Limit Blade Beam. Cloud is invincible for frames 5-12 of Limit Climhazzard. After Limit Cross Slash 'completes', Cloud has to wait 19 frames to do anything. Cloud can still fullhop autocancel downair. Cloud can still snap edge near the beginning of UpB or while he is slashing down during UpB. Cloud's raised knee is invincible for the active part of downtilt. Basically Cloud translated over how you'd expect, he's basically just better with some nerfs to limit.


:ultbayonetta: Bayonetta
Nair: 10 frames
Fair: 12 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 8 frames
Dair: 30 frames
Any aerial/dodge after Up B: 25 frames minimum (dair still 30)
Any aerial/dodge after Side B: 20 frames minimum (dair still 30)
Fullhop height: 4? stage units
Shorthop height: 2.3? stage units
Interesting Notes: Bayonetta can still get two upBs in a row and preserve the double jump (that old glitch). Bayonetta's upB sends the opponent sideways upon finishing. Bayonetta's upair sending angle is terrible as an intentional nerf, I believe. It sends above and to the side, so you have to use a sideB to follow it up most likely.

:ultmegaman: Megaman
Nair: "Stuck" for 25 frames. Functionally similar to Smash 4, you can walk, shoot or jump instantly otherwise.
Fair: 10 frames
Bair: 20 frames
Uair: 20 frames
Dair: 15 frames
Fullhop height: 3.3 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.3 stage units
Interesting Notes: Megaman can airdodge after Up B. You must hold B to retain leaf shield now, and you can't hold onto it for as long. While you're doing leaf shield, you cannot do any attacks or grab the ledge. I do not think you can fastfall uptilt anymore. Because of the dash cancel system you can sprint away and do reverse jabs which is pretty neat, but otherwise Megaman is mostly the same. He cannot charge his Fsmash as long as the other fighters, who have all gained a few seconds of extra charge on smash attacks.

:4miibrawl: Mii Brawler
Nair: 8 frames
Fair: 13 frames
Bair: 14 frames
Uair: 10 frames
Dair: 18 frames
Fullhop height: 2.8 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.4 stage units
Interesting Notes: Flip kick no longer edge-cancels. Spinny-OP-Kick got super nerfed. Soft shorthop nair combos into upsmash and other things until 125%. Fast fall uair combos into things until 100% or so. Utilt/dtilt combo for awhile too. Nothing really to see here, it's the Mii brawler with less speed because he's medium, but a bit better frame data.

:4miisword: Mii Swordfighter
Nair: 9 frames
Fair: 12 frames
Bair: 9 frames
Uair: 10 frames
Dair: 18 frames
Fullhop height: 2.6 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.3 stage units
Interesting Notes: Fair1 has fixed knockback and combos into ftilt,utilt,usmash, and fsmash (if you're frame perfect on fsmash). You can shorthop autocancel bair and uair. You can shorthop shuriken, but the timing is super tight. It actually hits standing characters (barely) so its better than falco lasers in that way. The farther shuriken travels, the more damage it does. If it travels for about half its maximum lifetime, it will start to have hitstun, and it combos into literally anything if you are dashing up behind it, and the shuriken itself can do up to 7 damage. Downthrow combos into upair until about 90% This Mii might actually be worth something after all.

:4miigun: Mii Gunner
Nair: 11 frames
Fair: 12 frames
Bair: 11 frames
Uair: 13 frames
Dair: 17 frames
Fullhop height: 2.8 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.4 stage units
Interesting Notes: The first hits of uair are fixed knockback, and if you are extremely precise, fastfall uair1 combos into jab,utilt, and maybe grab and other things. You can't grab out of the pk fire clone move, and there aren't combos off of the psi magnet move (even though Ness has combos off of magnet). Uair still drags down. You can shorthop autocancel nair and bair. You can jump out of charging the gun.

:ultinkling: Inkling
Nair: 5 frames
Fair: 12 frames
Bair: 6 frames
Uair: 6 frames
Dair: 10 frames
Fullhop height: 3.2 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.6 stage units
Interesting Notes: Her initial dash really does lower her hurtbox by that much, it can even go under a Mario fireball during its bounce. Your hitbox is lowest from frames 4 to 13 of her dash (including startup). If you were to mash, even frame perfect, backward and forward, you actually aren't really in the ground and can get hit easily, also after frame 13 you start to mudskip as a squid up and down regularly, so timing your initial dash as an evasive maneuver is important because frame 4-13 are your only reliable frames for that. It takes roughly 2 seconds to fully fill your ink tank (shield+B). The power of your ink grenade's toss is base on how long you hold the button down for as you 'prime' it. You can throw 5 grenades per full ink-tank. Fastfall uair1 combos until past 200% with usmash, fsmash, tilts, jab, and probably grab. Paint roller can only be done once per airtime, and aerial paint roller doesn't bury. You have to use paintroller for 30 frames before you can cancel it or jump out of it. Even if you've used your double jump, you can jump out of paint roller in midair for extra recovery (as if you had 3 jumps). You can shorthop gun, but you have like no aircontrol during firing. You can only have one grenade out at once. Dthrow stops comboing at 70%. Uthrow stops comboing at 50%. Inkling can walljump.


:ultsimon::ultrichter: Simon/Richter
Nair: 14 frames
Fair: 10 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 10 frames
Dair: 26 frames
Fullhop height: 2 stage units
Shorthop height: 3 stage units
Interesting Notes: He rises and falls pretty slowly and in a specific arc, mimicking Castlevania 1-4. His holy water can be grabbed out of midair by the opponent. He has no zair, he grabs ledges via his whip aerials. His head is invincible during shield activate and shield release. Landing a dair on someone lets you angle forward or back how you actuall bounce off of them, and dair true combos into fair and probably other aerials depending on spacing. You can't grab someone out of holy-water fire. Nair drags the opponent, you can probably confirm holy water into nair dragdown grab to get your grab. You can angle fair and bair in the 3 basic angles. Holding jab lets you use Sheik's melee sideB, except its shorter but slightly more active. Downtilt2 (the jump) is completed at just lower than the height you initiated it from, so if you space it, you can downtilt2 from the stage and grab the ledge in a stylish fashion. Neutral B (axe throw) has a distance dependant on how far you push your stick to the right or left, it's fully magnitudal, it isn't a fixed set of distances.
SideB is really laggy but it covers 3/4 of battlefield, and if you avoid catching it, it will travel another 3/4 of battlefield the other way as well.

:ultincineroar: Incineroar
Nair: 11 frames
Fair: 14 frames
Bair: 8 frames
Uair: 8 frames
Dair: 16 frames
Fullhop height: 3.1 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.5 stage units
Interesting Notes: SideB doesn't cause freefall. Incineroar's arms are green-invincible (intangible?) during active grounded neutral B. Incineroar's arms and head are invincible during the raising part of UpB. Incineroar's head is invincible during active uptilt. Incineroar's legs are invincible during active dtilt. Incineroar's arms are invincible during active upsmash. Incineroar's upthrow can kill at about 150%, and downthrow sets up nicely for follow up aerials up until about 100%.

:ultkrool: King K. Rool
Nair: 13 frames
Fair: 11 frames
Bair: 14 frames
Uair: 13 frames
Dair: 14 frames
Fullhop height: 2.3 stage units (perfectly lands on battlefield platform)
Shorthop height: 1.3 stage units
Interesting Notes: Upair will only auto-cancel if you do it from a full double jump? This might be one of the laggiest aerials I've ever seen. His head is invincible while its active. Arm is invincible during active uptilt. UpB (copter) can't be cancelled early, but it always snaps to ledge. Cannonball gun can only be fired straight initially; Anything it sucks in can be fired at 40~ degrees up and forward, up and back, or straight up based on stick direction. Throwing your crown and not retrieving it leaves it on the ground as an item. You cannot pick it up yourself and use it as a standard item, it will always teleport to your head if you touch it. You can avoid the catching animation by having the crown hit you while you're in another animation (like Link's boomerang). K. Rool has armor on his stomach for a lot of his stomach oriented moves. Hitting with these moves or missing does not 'damage' his stomach. Only when he actually super armor's something does his stomach get damaged and eventually break. His stomach getting damaged acts strange. Certain moves can handle more of a beating and conserve your stomach more, but others can get your stomach destroy by armoring one smash attack. DownB (counter/reflect) is reliable and doesn't destroy your stomach at all, despite visually utilizing it.

:ultridley: Ridley
Nair: 12 frames
Fair: 16 frames
Bair: 17 frames
Uair: 14 frames
Dair: 33 frames
Fullhop height: 3.5? stage units
Shorthop height: 1.5? stage units
Interesting Notes: UpB can only travel in 4 fixed angles. It can't go straight down, or anywhere down and behind you. DownB's nasty sweetspot doesn't "crumple" the opponent, in the time you have to take to recover from the endlag, the opponent is already selecting a getup option, so you don't go really go super plus or minus for landing it other than netting 60%. Fair drags the opponent, and fair dragdown true combos into jab, so it probably confirms a grab as well.

WHAT IS A STAGE UNIT? (+proof)
View attachment 180368
SUPER HELPFUL
 
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