Landing Lag/Generalized Frame Data Thread (Training Mode Tested// All 76 chars)

[circuspig]

Good thread, thanks for testing

 

[Cerulean]

yeah here's some potato footage. I tested heights and the only person tall enough to get hit by one of these is Ridley, and only during a specific part of his idle. Charizard, the tall humans, Bowser and DK are all still too short to get hit.

https://streamable.com/fzflb

Thanks for the footage, I'm guessing it could be used for catching players jumping.

 

[AKC12]

Are you sure you aren't able to shoot out King K Rool's cannonball in other directions other than 45 degrees? Nairo accidentally shot it upwards and has it on video.

 

[Bakasama]

Are you sure you aren't able to shoot out King K Rool's cannonball in other directions other than 45 degrees? Nairo accidentally shot it upwards and has it on video.

Oh yeah look at that. You can shoot your enemy / sucked in cannon ball either 33~ degrees forward, backward, or up. (So 3 directions). You still can only shoot the first cannonball forward though. I will fix my original post.

 

[PokéfreakofBACON]

This is a great thread!! Bless you. I'd love if you could do Little Mac for me. :>

 

[Barbeless]

Is there any chance you could do . Many thanks

 

[Bakasama]

Yeah after I go to sleep and wake up I'll get to Mac and Isabelle first

 

[kendikong]

I think something useful in the future would be a shieldstun framedata spreadsheet for all moves. Knowing whats plus or negative on shield is very useful

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

Context sensitive attacks for ryu is interesting... Does he still have shield break? (Hard f tilt)

 

[PsySmasher]

Heh. I find it kinda funny that 4 of the 7 characters you still have to unlock are characters I'm planning to play seriously.

Anyway, great thread. Nice to see how much lag was really shaved off for the majority of characters.

Should promote a more aggressive metagame (hopefully).

 

[Porygon2]

You can perfect shield for 5 (or 6?) frames after releasing the shield.
There is no 'inbetween state' of perfect shielding: IE you cannot release your shield on the frame a move connects to get a perfect-shield 'parry'.

Can you reiterate what you mean by this? Is it that there is a single 'release' frame that does not result in parry, i.e., you should release one frame in advance of attack?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Great job man, you're doing god's work.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

You mention Luigi's grab is quick to come out, but isn't it 14 frames of start up?

 

[DrizzyJeremiah]

Can we get some love for the homie ?

 

[Grunky Peep]

Fullhop height: 2 stage units
Shorthop height: 3 stage units

?

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Hey man, when you get the chance of course, Wolf would be great. No rush at all, though! Thanks for your hard work brudda

 

[adlp]

I'm a melee player of over a decade, so I could do it on a 'point system' I guess to just give a 'feel', but I feel like generalizing like that is dumb so I'll have to come up with something better.

im a melee guy too. a point system sounds fine, but maybe separate them in terms of dash dance window size, as well as actual usefulness of dash dance. like in melee, ganon and puff both have great dash dancing windows, but the distance they cover isnt that great.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

I'd like to request frame data for Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard! Thank you for all of this valuable information.

 

[Ghostofthefuture1mil]

This is all such great info....thank you OP!!

If you snap the ledge with upB or grab it during upB freefall, you are missing your first frame of invincibility on ledge grab. (This doesn't apply to tethers)

Can you double-check to confirm that there's indeed only 1 frame of vulnerability here, and not 2? I remember when this mechanic was first found in Smash 4, it was thought to be a 1-frame vulnerability at first, then eventually ppl realized that it was actually 2 frames. In Smash 4 it also only applied when grabbing the ledge from below as well.

Not a big deal, but I hope that they didn't just make it harder to punish ledge snaps....

Btw would also like to know what exactly you mean by not being able to release shield on the same frame as an attack. I'm guessing you mean that you can't activate a parry after an attack hits?

 

[Cheryl~]

This is an amazing thread, if you could do I would very much appreciate it!

 

[W.A.C.]

Plz... Thank you very much for the data btw.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Thanks for the info! I noticed that you said Ridley's Up-B couldn't fly straight down or down and back, but does that mean it can fly at the coveted up and forward angle now(it could not in the E3 demo version)? If so, there's another rumor floating around that Ridley's Down-B is now unblockable when sweetspotted. Can you C/D?

 

[Bakasama]

I am getting to all the comments now first, and then I'll get to all the characters as the night goes on! I'll edit this post with responses to the previous comments.

E.G.G.M.A.N. Ridley can go straight up, forward and downish, backward and upish, and mostly down and a little forward. I have amended my original post for clarity with this image. Ridley's downB sweetspot is blockable, can be blocked easily even with an "M&M" shield, does very little shield damage and is also perfect shieldable.


Ghostofthefuture1mil So ledge snaps are funky, I can see invincibility and quite a few characters lose invincibility on frame 1 of ledge grab after pratfall or on snap, but not every character acts this way. Mario loses 1 frame from above or below, Ryu/Ken don't lose any, Ridley loses 2 from below etc. I have amended the original post to make note of this.

Porygon2 If you shield a move you cannot release on that frame to perfect shield it. I wrote about this specifically because I was concerned that the window would be so large that players could actually get off perfect shields by waiting for the strike and releasing. There is actually a little known mechanic in melee that allows for soft-perfect shields (so you can reflect projectiles with a huge shield), basically I was afraid of some similar inbetween situation.

Goodstyle_4 Luigi's grab is active from frame 14-20? Dash grab is active starting frame 16. It's a 46 frame move when it whiffs, but I guess I'm used to the exhaustingly long grabs like Samus's from melee or any of the 64 'tethers'. I will add the frame data to the OP so people don't have to rely on my judgement.

Jumpinjahosafa Ryu still has collarbone breaker, yes.

 

[xenwall]

Any plans to get around to Mii fighters?

ALLLLLLSO, thanks for this, you're a hype machine and these are the kind of juicy details that will sustain me/us until December 7th. Thank you very much.

 

[MysticKnives]

Good info. Love to know things for Falcon and Puff

 

[Raidx]

Just noting that Pichu's up air doesn't have fixed knockback in Melee, so that's not a change at all. Nice work overall tho

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

I am getting to all the comments now first, and then I'll get to all the characters as the night goes on! I'll edit this post with responses to the previous comments.

E.G.G.M.A.N. Ridley can go straight up, forward and downish, backward and upish, and mostly down and a little forward.

Hmm that's still the same as the E3 version, then. I'm guessing that means his Down-B is also unchanged from the E3 version.

 

[san.]

Good stuff so far, just a quick question.

Once you get around to (Not a high priority since most of his data is known already), is it possible to check to see if his aerial upB and grounded upB have different super armor frames?

Thanks

 

[Bakasama]

Good stuff so far, just a quick question.

Once you get around to (Not a high priority since most of his data is known already), is it possible to check to see if his aerial upB and grounded upB have different super armor frames?

Thanks

I cannot check super armor sadly, there's no setting to view it. I could check manually but it would take a lot of time to properly measure the two ranges, especially alone.

 

[JohnKnight416]

Do you have any video footage of Link recovering with his remote bombs?

 

[xzx]

I know I've requested Pac-Man before, but if you could do Wario (and Pokémon Trainer - someone else suggested him) then that would satisfy all my needs lol.

 

[Bakasama]

Do you have any video footage of Link recovering with his remote bombs?

https://streamable.com/o13k1

Also to everyone requesting characters, I am doing them all, just slowly. I like to think a little critically rather than just post the numbers and leave them there.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

https://streamable.com/o13k1

Also to everyone requesting characters, I am doing them all, just slowly. I like to think a little critically rather than just post the numbers and leave them there.

That makes sense. Thanks man, and take your time. Your extra notes are actually way more informative than raw numbers are for me at least. As for Link, do the bombs always send backwards with Z-drop, and forwards with down throw (with detonation of course)?

 

[Bakasama]

That makes sense. Thanks man, and take your time. Your extra notes are actually way more informative than raw numbers are for me at least. As for Link, do the bombs always send backwards with Z-drop, and forwards with down throw (with detonation of course)?

Downward toss is centered, the explosion and resulting blast direction you could probably SDI or you could microspace just beforehand. The Zdrop drops the bomb exactly where it is in space currently, so if you're in neutral fall its infront of you, if you're in double jump, its centered. If you're moving forward and zdrop it, you'll most likely end up with it inside or behind you, but just falling straight down, the bomb will zdrop ahead of you because Link holds it a bit ahead of him.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Echoing the request, but no rush! Really appreciate what you're doing.

 

[Keydrian]

Next chance ya get, if you could do that'd be wonderful. He's looking crazy good right now. Cheers!

 

[JohnKnight416]

https://streamable.com/o13k1

Also to everyone requesting characters, I am doing them all, just slowly. I like to think a little critically rather than just post the numbers and leave them there.

Thank you so much for finding this footage. This helps a lot!

 

[Iridium]

If you don't mind any questions, I was wondering some things:

Does any of 's throws seem stronger? Does his Spin Attack appear to launch at a different angle? And finally, is there much you can say on his movement speed (ground, air, etc.)?

 

[Bakasama]

Spinosaurus xzx san. Cheryl~ W.A.C.
Lucario, Wario, Ike, Diddy and Wolf are complete.

Iridium his throws aren't stronger, at the pace this game goes at and the %s that kills are usually earned, you'll never get a 'kill throw'. I would say I like their angles a bit more now, upthrow and downthrow don't send far away until later %s and forward throw has a more extreme horizontal angle, good for tossing people straight off the stage. His UpB seems the same more or less. Sadly I don't think it can semi-spike like it could in Melee, but I haven't been able to test it accurately enough to warrant writing that as a definite thing in the OP.

 

[Jimster]

Would you please test if Zelda's dthrow into up air still works in Ultimate? Up air covers a lot higher distance and bigger width so would be big still if true.