Landing Lag/Generalized Frame Data Thread (Training Mode Tested// All 76 chars)

[MrGameguycolor]

Dang, this is very well organized.
Good job sir!

If I were to request some landing lag data, could you please test Dr. Mario?
I'm curious to see how much it is compared to Mario considering how historically he's had more then Mario.

 

[Bakasama]

Can Link's bomb launch you vertically at around a 90 degree angle? Or is that just not possible?

Link's bomb will never send you upward at a 90 degree angle. You can DI the blast to gain height but you really have to be on your A game. With good DI you can really start gaining height at around 80%. Without good DI you will go mostly sideways at a 33~ degree angle

MrGameguycolor
I'll do Doc next. His downB is nasty strong in this game (first impression).

 

[adlp]

zelda not being able to autocancel fair or bair from a short hop is bull****

also will you plan on including more dash dancing info, like we know inkling's is good, and mario's apparently isnt, so i would like to know with each character

 

[Bakasama]

zelda not being able to autocancel fair or bair from a short hop is bull****

also will you plan on including more dash dancing info, like we know inkling's is good, and mario's apparently isnt, so i would like to know with each character

Yeah I'll try to after everything is done. Its very difficult to measure this sort of thing though because it would have to factor how fast the initial dash is, alongside with how long a character must travel to turn around. I'm a melee player of over a decade, so I could do it on a 'point system' I guess to just give a 'feel', but I feel like generalizing like that is dumb so I'll have to come up with something better.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Link's bomb will never send you upward at a 90 degree angle. You can DI the blast to gain height but you really have to be on your A game. With good DI you can really start gaining height at around 80%. Without good DI you will go mostly sideways at a 33~ degree angle

Wow thx for all the work m8, the info is greatly appreciated.

 

[JohnKnight416]

Indeed. Knowing that BOTW Link can indeed use his bomb recover is a big discovery. Thank you for sharing whatever information you have on recovering with BOTW Link's Bombs.

 

[Yikarur]

Shield is frame 1. Just the visual bubble is frame 2 like in Smash 4

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Prepare for this thread to be flooded with requests.

The first hit of Link's Fair seems to be programmed to autolink into the second hit based on footage we've seen so far. In Smash 4, Bair is known to have a set knockback on the first hit so that it connects into the second hit as well.

Does Fair's first hit have a set knockback at all %s? And can it be used to combo into dtilt, ftilt, Up B, etc at any %s?

 

[Bakasama]

Shield is frame 1. Just the visual bubble is frame 2 like in Smash 4

This is an extremely important quirk i didn't realize. I tested it and amended my post. Thank you.

Ryu_Ken
Fair1 is not fixed knockback, it's just got knockback growth weak enough that it links to fair2 at most reasonable percents. Fair1 will kill someone at 999%, but it still links into fair2 at 200%, so somewhere in the middle it stops linking. Bair1 is totally fixed knockback though.

If you are moving quickly with fair1 you can land and true combo into jab,dtilt, dsmash, upsmash and grab until about 110% on all chars. Some chars you can land true combo into upB like Jiggs. When the stars align, it can true combo into fsmash.
Bair can combo into turnaround grab, jab, dtilt, uptilt, upB, upsmash, dsmash at any%. Basically anything that isn't fsmash. I tested this on fox and jigglypuff.

 

[senilecoot]

I'm interested in and if you are taking requests. Mostly if their dash dances are any good, plus i think people are sleeping on greninja.

 

[Patriot Duck]

Thanks for all this. I look forward to Inkling, Lucas, and Puff's landing lag data. I'm sure this is tedious work, so no rush.

 

[Fell God]

Interested to see what we learn from this. Thank you for taking time to lab and test frame data rather than actually play for fun haha

 

[Bakasama]

I appreciate everyone's specific requests. I am a melee player who knows a lot of the quirks of all the games on a deep level, but the Smash 4 players know intimate details about their characters that are worth testing, and the results are worth putting in my 'interesting notes'. I would never have known that fair1 from link comboed into things or that I forgot about falco's falling nair combos.

Keep the requests coming. I'm slow because I'm also looking into general frame data, eating, unlocking characters and etc but I do want to complete the list haha.

S senilecoot Patriot Duck I'll get you both next.

Fell God I think this is fun and exciting, labbing everything, because I think this is the first promising smash game since melee. It's not melee's touch of death system, but boy howdy the kill confirms are all over the place.

 

[Bakasama]

I'm interested in and if you are taking requests. Mostly if their dash dances are any good, plus i think people are sleeping on greninja.

Double post, because i just did Sheik.
I'll have to do a seperate appended little chart or something for dash dancing. Sheik's initial dash length is somewhat short, and that's good and bad. That means she can dash in and out sooner, but not as far. Her initial dash is really good though, so I think Sheik weaving in and out of the opponents range with dtilts and turnaround ftilts is a reasonable thing that could happen.

 

[senilecoot]

Double post, because i just did Sheik.
I'll have to do a seperate appended little chart or something for dash dancing. Sheik's initial dash length is somewhat short, and that's good and bad. That means she can dash in and out sooner, but not as far. Her initial dash is really good though, so I think Sheik weaving in and out of the opponents range with dtilts and turnaround ftilts is a reasonable thing that could happen.

You're doing God's work Bakasama. Hopefully she is as hype or more as she was at the end of smash 4. I am optimistic.

 

[Zinith]

I think you already know what my request would be...

Edit: Oh wait, it looks like you already did him...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Airdodge frame data is universal now? That's very interesting, and those airdodges are very slow compared to 4 airdodges. One thing I'd ask though if they're mostly universal is what the frame data on Bayonetta airdodges is; she has the Bat Within mechanic so she seems like she must be a special case somehow.

This also should mostly go without saying, but this is an outstanding topic. Thanks for providing this kind of data; it does a ton to advance our collective understanding of the game.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

For the "boost-grab," does this mean all characters can "boost-throw" (dash attack cancel item toss)? And can you still glide toss (despite the jumpsquat being 3 frames)?

For reference: Bombsliding.

 

[Bakasama]

Airdodge frame data is universal now? That's very interesting, and those airdodges are very slow compared to 4 airdodges. One thing I'd ask though if they're mostly universal is what the frame data on Bayonetta airdodges is; she has the Bat Within mechanic so she seems like she must be a special case somehow.

This also should mostly go without saying, but this is an outstanding topic. Thanks for providing this kind of data; it does a ton to advance our collective understanding of the game.

Damn you're right, they're not universal. I'll have to amend it, it still uses that weird small range of differences like in Smash 4.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Bakasama if you could do too, whenever you have time, that'd be great. PapaJ already compiled some data based on video footage.

If you want to take a quick look at what he has so far: https://smashboards.com/threads/snakes-virtual-reality-training-center.455533/#post-22670026

Thx again.

 

[Zinith]

I think you already know what my request would be...

Edit: Oh wait, it looks like you already did him...

Oh wait, hold on. I want to know if there's frame differences with my boi's shield from everyone else. His shield is almost always different...

 

[Bakasama]

For the "boost-grab," does this mean all characters can "boost-throw" (dash attack cancel item toss)? And can you still glide toss (despite the jumpsquat being 3 frames)?

For reference: Bombsliding.

So I don't think this is possible, but I won't put info about it in the main post because maybe I'm just not very good at it, I don't have Smash 4 atm to test if I'm good at this or not.

 

[Bakasama]

Oh wait, hold on. I want to know if there's frame differences with my boi's shield from everyone else. His shield is almost always different...

Yoshi's shield is active frame1, he can release on frame 3, he can only perfect shield for 5 frames on release. His shield will break from full in 5 and a half seconds yadda yadda. Also he still takes shield stun on frame1, so no melee parrying either. Oh and he can jump out of his shield still

Patriot Duck We live in a world where Psi Magnet combos into things for style points. I just did Ness.

 

[thesage]

Patriot Duck We live in a world where Psi Magnet combos into things for style points. I just did Ness.

Can you post a video of the Ness stuff? Is it like the fox shine combos in 64?

 

[Bakasama]

Can you post a video of the Ness stuff? Is it like the fox shine combos in 64?

I can't take on-board video of the switch. Psi Magnet doesn't cancel on landing or anything like that, its just that you float so quickly that you follow the opponent as they slide across the floor, and if you time the height correctly, you can even have it cancel as you land so you can get a grounded followup. It's not the safest thing in the world, but if they shield your first psi magnet on incoming, you either cross them up (which is rare in a game where you can't run through eachother) or you can jump away.
EDIT: I took potato webcam video, you can just barely make out that the 3-hit combo registers on the second attempt (you can tell the counter doesn't say 0 or 1)

https://giant.gfycat.com/FlamboyantHotCrownofthornsstarfish.webm

 

[thesage]

Wow that looks so sick.

 

[phantoon]

could we have when possible? great thread

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

For these frame data counts on moves are you adding the jump squat frames to each move? Everyone seems to have a slower Nair by three frames or more frames while other moves have the same frame data as before.

 

[Bakasama]

For these frame data counts on moves are you adding the jump squat frames to each move? Everyone seems to have a slower Nair by three frames or more frames while other moves have the same frame data as before.

its all landing lag. Jump squat occurs when you jump, not when you land.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

its all landing lag. Jump squat occurs when you jump, not when you land.

Ah okay thank you for clarifying on that one! Would had helped if I paid attention more to the title of the thread! Lol

 

[Bakasama]

Ah okay thank you for clarifying on that one! Would had helped if I paid attention more to the title of the thread! Lol

yeah as much as i'd like to give everyone the exact frame data of whats active and when and how long, that's a helluva lot to just count frame by frame manually and sort of guess about, so I'll leave that to the data miners

 

[Questionmark222]

Wow, props to you for collecting all this data! When possible could you please analyze K. Rool and Wolf? But take your time because I know you're probably drowning in requests right now...

 

[DT Raw]

Wait ur positive fox shine hits frame 2 and is invincible?? What frames is it invincible

 

[Bakasama]

Wait ur positive fox shine hits frame 2 and is invincible?? What frames is it invincible

Fox is invincible during shine on frame 2 and 3, the hitbox comes out on frame 3.

 

[DT Raw]

Omg amazing^

 

[Cerulean]

Do you have footage of falco's shorthop laser?

 

[Kuragari]

Very nicely done thread

 

[Bakasama]

Do you have footage of falco's shorthop laser?

yeah here's some potato footage. I tested heights and the only person tall enough to get hit by one of these is Ridley, and only during a specific part of his idle. Charizard, the tall humans, Bowser and DK are all still too short to get hit.

https://streamable.com/fzflb

 

[Skarfelt]

For your Fox writeup, you say that his DSmash is invincible. Does that mean just his legs like before? Or Fox as a whole? I assume the former, just making sure.

Incredible thread! Really appreciate the great work :D

 

[Bakasama]

For your Fox writeup, you say that his DSmash is invincible. Does that mean just his legs like before? Or Fox as a whole? I assume the former, just making sure.

Incredible thread! Really appreciate the great work :D

just the legs, I'll write it in to clarify