Kowns Thread.

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Wow, EU Pit's are very fast and have almost mastered arrow looping, wow Yass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuHB8O4Xn3o

& Sharkz--Stingers is friendly you should hit him up on here & set a time to meet up. You don't even have to play smash first, you can just get lunch or something.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

But Maharba, chickens do **** things up when they get hit enough. Haven't you ever played Zelda?

!

OMFG

LUCARIO IS A CHICKEN.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Wow, EU Pit's are very fast and have almost mastered arrow looping, wow Yass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuHB8O4Xn3o

& Sharkz--Stingers is friendly you should hit him up on here & set a time to meet up. You don't even have to play smash first, you can just get lunch or something.

Don't know how friendlies portaying an overusage of looping arrows means that they've almost mastered it. Yass and his buddy missed looped arrows 90% of the time and when they hit there was hardly any gain from it rather than shooting 2-3 straight arrows. Its cool, but still not practical.

 

[Suyon]

I don't even arrow loop at all. I don't practice it at all either. If I ever wanted to use arrow looping in tournament it would need to be AP level for me.
In my last tournament I probably went over the LGL in 60% of my games. I would be considered slow then right?
I should practice though...maybe....

 

[Kuro~]

I only find arrow looping useful when i realized i ****ed up and shot an arrow too close to IC or D3 so i just turn around and aim it to come back.

I use arrow loops ever so often. Not at all in some mu though.



SV is so easy to time out with <3

I was doing doubles and it went down to an IC vs Pit match on sv...i went for dat timeout. Though i won from a bair <3

 

[Krystedez]

Don't know how friendlies portaying an overusage of looping arrows means that they've almost mastered it. Yass and his buddy missed looped arrows 90% of the time and when they hit there was hardly any gain from it rather than shooting 2-3 straight arrows. Its cool, but still not practical.

Thats why AP began beating me more in our friendlies, he's a straight and narrow pit, and arrow looping simply doesn't work well for the Pit using it in the ditto. Smarts and technical prowess however do. He's great at platform canceling.

Also, arrow looping is significant in certain matchups, not so much in others. Ever pelted a MK multiple times just because he decided to glide to you from a distance? You pull an arrow while he's jumping, shoot it behind you, loop it, hit him in his glide (it's the perfect distance for the loop to be more accurate) and then shoot him again. THAT'LL TEACH THAT BAT TO GLIDE AT ALL!!

Also, looping in a match up where the opposing character has his own projectiles is very useful, but not against characters like Pit, ZSS, or even Shiek. They all have tools to negate, avoid, and even punish you for using them. (plus they're skinny as hell and hard to aim for anyways)...

Finally, big mistakes from Arrow looping will cause you a lot of punishment if you use them against characters like Dedede, even if they are useful because he's so fast, you get like, 4 percent if you hit? He gets like 20 percent after getting hit because he grabs you almost immediately if he's made it that close to you during the loop (which he will)...

Snake is the only exception, arrow looping helps immensely against him because it pressures him to keep moving and shielding which you can use to bait for a grab, punish of some sort, and then getting him in the (his most vulnerable period) is that much easier. But again, focusing on ALing will just hurt you in the end, because snake is an even matchup not because we can pelt him with looped arrows easier without fear of him being a fat-***-hitbox like Dedede sticking his foot out 2 or 3 times in 2 seconds...

 

[Admiral Pit]

I'm flattered after reading that >.<
There's just some MUs that I couldn't fool around in with such fancy stuff, and I have noticed it in some Pit mirroring matches, and I really don't like doing them much against Pit's bad MUs either, or even on certain stages. It's all in the matter of balance and knowledge of fundamentals, which I've eventually learned. That doesn't mean I won't use such an arrow on occasions to try to trick opponents into doing some stuff, but alas, none should ever make looping arrows their main focus.
idk what else to say. I suppose I just am willing to have more matches with other Pit players.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

you guys realize that's the video he posted in the video thread that specifically said, "this is a friendly where me and my friend try to out arrow loop each other because we were bored." right. go look for yourself. it's in one of the video threads where he says that

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Aww man, yall took it so serious. It's just for fun and to look @ the applications of it, not that you will be using it all the time. Even though it's not that useful, arrow looping shows some of Pits potential w/ arrows. It can possibly be a rare mix-up to use when coming down, like Yass does here @ 1:25-- Also, 2:22 shows possible usage for extra hits, but tbh--I can be useful, but the time, effort, thought, and skill needed to do it--it doesn't become very useful unless you are perfect @ it, which I have never seen a Pit do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-U8u6W1PdA

 

[Blubolouis]

About that, I think that's the reason why Yass isn't trying to go at tournaments atm, he's just waiting to have improved even more. I guess that includes arrow loops.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Wow, EU Pit's are very fast and have almost mastered arrow looping, wow Yass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuHB8O4Xn3o

Aww man, yall took it so serious. It's just for fun and to look @ the applications of it, not that you will be using it all the time.

I was just responding to the first sentence. I guess you were being sarcastic then?

Snake is the only exception, arrow looping helps immensely against him because it pressures him to keep moving and shielding which you can use to bait for a grab, punish of some sort, and then getting him in the (his most vulnerable period) is that much easier. But again, focusing on ALing will just hurt you in the end, because snake is an even matchup not because we can pelt him with looped arrows easier without fear of him being a fat-***-hitbox like Dedede sticking his foot out 2 or 3 times in 2 seconds...

You're right at the end, but Snake is not an exception. Have you ever used Snake against a spamming Pit? **** is so annoying that I'm glad that I'm going to be the one using Pit in tournament. There is not situation where looping arrows is better than shooting multiple straight or slightly angled arrows.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Not being sarcastic on this one, but Smashragde(ED) is amazing! If you've played him on wifi then you know what I mean, but he made it to GFs!--And has a ton load of videos we can check out, this is just one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8Qc1bvg1cw&feature=related

 

[Yass]

About that, I think that's the reason why Yass isn't trying to go at tournaments atm, he's just waiting to have improved even more. I guess that includes arrow loops.

I agree Blubo

 

[Krystedez]

Luckay, not saying looping is ever better than straight, but it IS an exception to the rule of NOT using them at all.

Like, don't use arrow loops against another Pit or ZSS or Shiek. DO use them if you can and want to to help with MK, Snake, Lucario, or other favorites of mine. But be most careful about using them against Dedede because he can kill you and get damage racked up faster than Snake can from a single mistake.

 

[Kuro~]

Luckay, not saying looping is ever better than straight, but it IS an exception to the rule of NOT using them at all.

Like, don't use arrow loops against another Pit or ZSS or Shiek. DO use them if you can and want to to help with MK, Snake, Lucario, or other favorites of mine. But be most careful about using them against Dedede because he can kill you and get damage racked up faster than Snake can from a single mistake.

If the dedede punished it your doing it wrong

 

[Pitzer]

Looping isn't needed at all. It was created for mindgames. Looping should only be taken into consideration if a Snake decides to Cypher in the blast zone.



Edit: Not to sound cocky, but my Falco is Beast atm, also Im back guys, back to Pit. Pit/Falco At Apex With some Wolf

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Not to sound sceptical, but I don't believe one bit that your Falco or Wolf is tourney viable.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i disagree ptzr. it's only unnecessary if you can't almost always guarantee a more favorable position when the opportunity presents itself. if your loop>favorable position can almost always guarentee what you wanted from it, this could mean anything that made that moment noticably better from something simple like a frame trap into a string or kill or just something as simple as using it to control a certain space that left you with favorable options like Mirror shield or footstool because they couldn't go up to a certain point without getting hit. if it's there and you can do it because it's the current best option, then do it. if you can't, that doesn't there aren't still good options, it just means they have less options that are still good.

tl:dr, perfection isn't an option, near perfection is an option however

 

[Yass]

You guys are considering the fact that arrow loop rise risk to get attaqued. It's wrong, a very good player will know perfectly when he has to loop and how. Pit can loop without taking risk it just demand skill (a lot I'd say. 'Even me' can't arrow loop without taking risks for now)

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

damn it yass bro! you ninja'd me!

btw, since you're one of my model basis for my arrow game, what do you think of my vids?

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Luckay, not saying looping is ever better than straight, but it IS an exception to the rule of NOT using them at all.

Like, don't use arrow loops against another Pit or ZSS or Shiek. DO use them if you can and want to to help with MK, Snake, Lucario, or other favorites of mine. But be most careful about using them against Dedede because he can kill you and get damage racked up faster than Snake can from a single mistake.

Seriously, Arrow looping is not the choice if a straight arrow can hit the target. They take too long in high level play, cut your focus, and miss half the time because the arrow is coming from off screen. The only time arrow looping is preferable is when a straight arrow is incapable of hitting your opponent.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Seriously, Arrow looping is not the choice if a straight arrow can hit the target. They take too long in high level play, cut your focus, and miss half the time because the arrow is coming from off screen. The only time arrow looping is preferable is when a straight arrow is incapable of hitting your opponent.

actually luckay here has a very truthful post. this is the not stoned version of what i was trying to say. of course i sometimes do it on hard read but for the most part what luckay said.

 

[Yass]

Seriously, Arrow looping is not the choice if a straight arrow can hit the target. They take too long in high level play, cut your focus, and miss half the time because the arrow is coming from off screen. The only time arrow looping is preferable is when a straight arrow is incapable of hitting your opponent.

The purpose of arrow looping is not only HIT you know. "HIT" should be reserved to straight arrow. But arrow loops should be use for mindgame and combos or making pressure on your opponent.

Maharba can you link me some matchs ? I couldnt see yours recently

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Sorry yass, but there is no mindgame anymore. 3 Years into the metagame, a pro player will know that you're trying to loop if you shoot an arrow in some random direction and see Pit moving around with no clear intention or what you do and throw out a move immediately after starting your loop as a solution to the former. They know that most of the time the loop won't hit for a combo so it is ignored all together and you're at a disadvantage because you have to split your mind between what the arrow does and what you do. Arrow spamming, slight charges, and full charges present a better mindgame and pressure because it still can make opponents resort to quick actions in today's metagame. Spamming can make them airdodge/spotdodge, meaning we can punish those with slight charges. Spam will push them back slightly making their approach harder for them and making them more reckless thus way more pressure. The potential combos with looping are great, I have often times comboed a loop into a sweetspot bair or fsmash, but it doesn't happen all the time. It's high risk low reward 95% of the time. It was cool, then it became a gimmick, now it's borderline useless in competitive play. Show me a match where you used excessive looping on an opponent considered pro in your area and got at least 10 combos off of them.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

why does it matter how many times they do it in a match when all that matters is that the times they did use them worked be it a lot or a little? seriously all that matters is that they worked when you needed them, how many times straight up doesn't matter. hell you can go a whole match without looping (several in a row sometimes) but the loops that you do use that one time that gets you what you wanted because it was there, that's what matters

 

[Pitzer]

My Falco is Tourney Legit. k

 

[Kuro~]

why does it matter how many times they do it in a match when all that matters is that the times they did use them worked be it a lot or a little? seriously all that matters is that they worked when you needed them, how many times straight up doesn't matter. hell you can go a whole match without looping (several in a row sometimes) but the loops that you do use that one time that gets you what you wanted because it was there, that's what matters

That's how i feel about it. If i loop in a seriously i'm either playing snake or know it's gonna work. Or it's doubles. Looping in doubles in 2v1 is so lol.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

looping in doubles is broken at all times, as are just normal arrows and planking. only an mk can really challenge it in doubles or like snake and g&w. because you see my children, based on your team mate and character partner, pit is a broken doubles partner. think about teaming pit with trela, a master of 2v1 and is obviously the combo god of lucario, with arrow frame traps adding to his **** storm of death and destruction combined with our stocks and his aura.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V14KqL3RLXQ

yeah, that's right.

edit:

better music video

 

[Tesh]

The trouble with arrow looping is that to evolve it beyond a low reward gimmick, you need to master it so well and be able to control your character and the arrow with so much technical attention that you might as well pick up Diddy or ICs or something and get waaaaay bigger results for your effort.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

nah. i would rather just keep working my pit game now that i've pretty much already got my arrow control to the levels of skill i desired. most of it is actually not looping, but the loops that are thrown in serve their purpose. besides, i just time people out anymore. i need to upload that 20min match against sync's peach and those matches against pj that were like 24mins or 3 full timeout matches

 

[Krystedez]

Sorry yass, but there is no mindgame anymore. 3 Years into the metagame, a pro player will know that you're trying to loop if you shoot an arrow in some random direc

I seriously stopped readin here, Luckay. Arrow loops are meant for more than mind games, as Yass has stated, but mind games don't exist any more? Seriously, characters without so much of a single projectile or fast OoS move STILL mind game, and yet you say Pit with one of the best projectiles can't. . . okay.

A pro player can and will still get hit by arrow loops because if you're not some dumb Pit that loops arrows just to look fancy, you actually loop them, WHILE FIGHTING, to put the opponent in unfavorable positions and games of rock paper scissors, where you react to THEIR reaction to your looped arrow, which otherwise can not be done with a straight arrow.

That. Is the point. Of looping. And some characters simply are too hard to put in to unfavorable positions with AL, while OTHERS like MK or Snake who have a lack of aerial mobility (unless MK gets a glide, which I just said how to stop with an arrow loop easy if not a straight arrow...but again, a straight arrow is NOT delayed enough for you to combine the hit into a f-air, b-air, or other aerial. It's that simple).

nah. i would rather just keep working my pit game now that i've pretty much already got my arrow control to the levels of skill i desired. most of it is actually not looping, but the loops that are thrown in serve their purpose. besides, i just time people out anymore. i need to upload that 20min match against sync's peach and those matches against pj that were like 24mins or 3 full timeout matches

This is a perfect example of having the right mindset. For me, learning wario's bike came after being a total badass with his fart, aerial mobility and campiness. For Pit, I went through the same thing, before arrow looping, except his prowess is general camping, punishing, range/spacing, and off-stage game.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i pm'd you the ones that matter yass

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Wow lol, maybe if you didn't stop reading, you would understand better.

 

[Krystedez]

I went through it again, and uhh... nope. Not much more than I already read there except you went from completely discrediting looping, to admitting its uses (combos), to completely demeaning its usefulness again.

It doesn't take a split-mind to loop, I do it quite naturally while fighting and it doesn't take much more energy or thinking then shooting a charged arrow, you're just constantly moving the control stick (Which you are anyways to fight and move)

 

[Pitzer]

Looping isn't good. Wrong di can assume. Do you want to die at 42% like PatG?

 

[Krystedez]

(facepalm). . . That's why you correct your stick when you get close... Who the hell really loops while right next to a MK dsmashing you? I learned that like the first tournament lol...

I actually made a guide about this, I thought this was all secondary knowledge by now. Just by someone saying looping is bad shows how little they actually put it to use, while I've used it and it really helps.

 

[Zatchiel]

Looping isn't good. Wrong di can assume. Do you want to die at 42% like PatG?

This is why I'm madly in admiration of PatG. Some of the things he does are just unthinkable. Dying below 50% comprises 99% of them. 1% being swag.

 

[Suyon]

Arrow loop if you mastered it. If you haven't don't bother then. Doesn't even matter if you're really good just don't if you haven't mastered it. Simple as that from my perspective. So for me I just shoot arrows without looping.

 

[Krystedez]

That's true^ I tell that to every wario trying to use bike tricks but havent even learned basic wario tricks lol.

I used to use Pit mostly in pools but now I pull him out for bracket matches and money matches. Maybe if you do use arrow looping I'd do it in pools or friendlies until you have mastered it. I played Pit for an entire semester non stop and now this year im in school again makes it a whole year of Pit play.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

I went through it again, and uhh... nope. Not much more than I already read there except you went from completely discrediting looping, to admitting its uses (combos), to completely demeaning its usefulness again.

Guess I have to break it down, then.

It doesn't take a split-mind to loop, I do it quite naturally while fighting and it doesn't take much more energy or thinking then shooting a charged arrow, you're just constantly moving the control stick (Which you are anyways to fight and move)

Yes it does, you may think your finger is just moving on it's own, but to shoot an arrow in a circle you are constrained to a very narrow motion that PIT will be doing if you attempt to fight and loop simultaneously. This particular movement will NOT work in all situations of fighting in brawl because this game has too many variables.

I seriously stopped readin here, Luckay. Arrow loops are meant for more than mind games, as Yass has stated, but mind games don't exist any more? Seriously, characters without so much of a single projectile or fast OoS move STILL mind game, and yet you say Pit with one of the best projectiles can't. . . okay.

I did not diminish all mindgames in brawl completely. I guess you should read more carefully, because I was only on the topic of arrow looping being a mindgame over what other mindgames Pit is capable of doing.

A pro player can and will still get hit by arrow loops

My argument is that it hardly ever happens in competitive play. It's a gimmick because it isn't a true tech like wing refresh, wing dashing, dacus, or glide toss. Just every once in a while people will get hit by a random arrow.

where you react to THEIR reaction to your looped arrow, which otherwise can not be done with a straight arrow.

Yes it can....with another straight arrow.

That. Is the point. Of looping. And some characters simply are too hard to put in to unfavorable positions with AL, while OTHERS like MK or Snake who have a lack of aerial mobility (unless MK gets a glide, which I just said how to stop with an arrow loop easy if not a straight arrow...but again, a straight arrow is NOT delayed enough for you to combine the hit into a f-air, b-air, or other aerial. It's that simple).

Even if they have bad aerial mobility, they know you're going to approach because they know you have the "confidence" of coming from two different directions at once or whatever. And everyone knows approaching gets punished in brawl.

This is a perfect example of having the right mindset. For me, learning wario's bike came after being a total badass with his fart, aerial mobility and campiness. For Pit, I went through the same thing, before arrow looping, except his prowess is general camping, punishing, range/spacing, and off-stage game.

Yes you main Wario and Pit. Doesn't mean arrow looping is as effective as the bike. Items are way more easier to control while fighting and you get better combos from them making them much more useful. Arrows cannot be used as items and should not be grouped into that category.