Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[Kantrip]

Example Tier List:

God Tier
(Tourney Cop/Tourney Cop Clear)

S Tier
Wots All This Then? (Orboknown/JDietz43)
PrivateJoker-Brown

A Tier
Super Fabulous (-Masquerain/Ranmaru)
Red Ruy

B Tier
Picture Perfect (J/WashedLaundry)
soup

C Tier
Ryker giraffelasergun
pawndidater2

D Tier
thethirdkoopa
Potassium

E Tier
Shocodoro Blagshidect (Sephiroths Masamune/Xonar)
Anomandaris_Rake
Gheb_01

You face someone who is higher tiered than you, you let them win. Failure to do so will result in immediate distrust of the entire town and the suspicion mechanic being used on you to ensure you lose your next match for your efforts. Cop can watch people they're worried about not complying or people that have already broken the trust. They will be caught cheating if they try to disobey, which is even more incentive to keep with the tier list.

someone give me a good reason this isn't the exact way we ensure a town victory? The tier list does NOT have to look like this, as this was just an example and we could agree upon a universal one.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I assure you I will not cheat if I face any person who the majority believes is more townie than me.

In any situation, whether it threatens my tournament life or not. Unless I vastly disagree with the read, I will let obvtownies through. So you really don't have to worry about me, do you? Because it is 100% that I am going to face at least one of you/Fabio/Ruy/WATT/Joker etc before coming anywhere near winning the tournament, and if I advance and they don't, you guys can knock my *** right out.

So I'd appreciate it if, for one ****ing second, you could stop discrediting every ****ing thing I say. Either that or remove me if you're so sure, but I do advise against that as I already assure you I won't be a threat. That said, get off my back.

Only if you stop discrediting everything I say and get off your paranoia.

 

[ranmaru]

I still do but it's as I said in the hotel room earlier, little things like the Terra thing are starting to pile up against the slot. I've got my eye on him right now and it's just that but he's doing questionable **** and it's starting to pile up

MFW this guy forgot we left.

You must have talked about it in the hotel room, ok. Makes sense. I can understand your read slightly changing on soup with time. Just let me know what you exactly said tonight, kthx babe.

 

[Kantrip]

No, I'm not mad. I'm pretty sure there wasn't any emotion when I replied to your 'callout'.

I'm just noticing that you are now trying to gain wiggle room from the removal, and I'm not letting you get away.

I'm not even prime remove target lol. You guys have been trying to remove a lot of people before me, and I'm not threatened. I'm also trying to implement a system where I literally lie down and take losses. I am not a threat.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I am fine with you/soup being removed tomorrow, actually.

Over Circus? I don't particularly care much for Kantrip but I still think Circus took up the most scummy slot in the game.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

MFW this guy forgot we left.

You must have talked about it in the hotel room, ok. Makes sense. I can understand your read slightly changing on soup with time. Just let me know what you exactly said tonight, kthx babe.

i know, i was saying that so the guys in the room could back me up

 

[Kantrip]

Only if you stop discrediting everything I say and get off your paranoia.

Okay fine, you're a saint. What do you want me to say? My reads are inconsequential because I have no voice in this town that isn't immediately shot down because "I'm scum".

So I may as well sheep one of you penthouse suite gents until it's my turn to be shot in the face.

Carry on good sir

 

[Kantrip]

Wait, we can talk during match phases right? And cop doesn't review a match until after?

This just got even easier.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Okay fine, you're a saint. What do you want me to say? My reads are inconsequential because I have no voice in this town that isn't immediately shot down because "I'm scum".

So I may as well sheep one of you penthouse suite gents until it's my turn to be shot in the face.

Carry on good sir

i seriously don't remember you being this much of a passive aggressive ****. not in games you were scum nor in games you were town.

Look, I'm not asking for you to drop your scumread but I would prefer if you facilitate it beyond "I just get scummy vibes." You keep having me on or around that but you never expand upon it, you don't dig deeper to figure out where those vibes are coming from. I'm not asking you to drop it (well okay i just did but that was moreso the paranoia) but either get some backing on it or realize you're just being paranoid and let it go. You're not getting anywhere with it and responses like this just make you sound like a victim for no real reason. You played like **** earlier, you got called out on it, and you've been acting like you're whipped into doing whatever we expect you to do ever since. It's weird.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

also tiering **** is dumb because it takes away the spirit of the game and i don't want that

 

[Kantrip]

With my plan we don't need scumreads. Only townreads.

 

[Kantrip]

also tiering **** is dumb because it takes away the spirit of the game and i don't want that

The "spirit of the game" is very clear: Play to your win-con first. My win-con is for town to win the tournament, not sure about yours. If a plan that involves scummier players letting townier players win causes town to win the tournament, I'm going to advocate it! It's not an exploitation of any rules, it just actually involves every member of town to cooperate.

There is no mechanical argument against this.

 

[Kantrip]

But I'll comply with your requests. I acknowledge I played like **** earlier and I acknowledge that I have no basis for a scumread on you aside from paranoia.

I care about a factional win, but I don't care about rereading 70 pages of content to get reads we don't need. Tier system hits two birds with one stone.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

worthless and boring count me out

No but for real, at that point we'd essentially be vying with each other for who gets the right to win (which isn't actually winning a tournament, just a popularity contest) and we have no idea what scum will be able to do in the next cycle. We know scum loses their poisoner already but I can't imagine Nabe would give them a bunch of useful **** only to strip it from them when it was time for the clutch.

And we still have to put someone under suspicion, we still have to separate townreads from scumreads (you get after me on your list and it starts to become a lot less clear), and we still possess the capacity to be wrong. You claim to be town but a lot of people, myself included, scumread you. If we all made sure you finished last, that means a scum's taking your place higher on the list and that's not helping us.

 

[Kantrip]

They have a more powerful cheat that guarantees they can win a match if they need to.

The suspicion is saved for anyone who doesn't follow the tier system and let their higher tier win.

Cop checks matches that don't go right as well.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

The "spirit of the game" is very clear: Play to your win-con first. My win-con is for town to win the tournament, not sure about yours. If a plan that involves scummier players letting townier players win causes town to win the tournament, I'm going to advocate it! It's not an exploitation of any rules, it just actually involves every member of town to cooperate.

There is no mechanical argument against this.

My first is for town to win. My second is to do my best. Creating a mold for the winners when we have no good idea what we'll be up against during this and expecting us to be magically right in everything is both not fun and leaves a lot of room for error that we can't afford. And, really, what are scum gonna do in a scenario where the only type of punishment is a "suspicion" that we don't know for sure what will happen? (probably removes the ability for that player to cheat, helpful, but still not winning the match).

When have I really gave that much of a **** about mechanics. You started actually talking about reads and suddenly you pull a gheb? Not cool.

 

[Kantrip]

Washed.

Cop can check every match up to the final.

We have like... 4 players we confidently think are town. Only 2 make it to the final. With a loser's bracket and everything, we are guaranteed to get at least 2 of those 4 in the finals. We only need those. Everyone else is eventually going to let one of our super clears pass. We only lose if one of our top townreads is wrong.

 

[Kantrip]

My first is for town to win. My second is to do my best. Creating a mold for the winners when we have no good idea what we'll be up against during this and expecting us to be magically right in everything is both not fun and leaves a lot of room for error that we can't afford. And, really, what are scum gonna do in a scenario where the only type of punishment is a "suspicion" that we don't know for sure what will happen? (probably removes the ability for that player to cheat, helpful, but still not winning the match).

When have I really gave that much of a **** about mechanics. You started actually talking about reads and suddenly you pull a gheb? Not cool.

You want to get high in the tournament? Get high on everyone's town list. The highest townie players are there for a reason and deserve the wins.

 

[Kantrip]

My first is for town to win. My second is to do my best. Creating a mold for the winners when we have no good idea what we'll be up against during this and expecting us to be magically right in everything is both not fun and leaves a lot of room for error that we can't afford. And, really, what are scum gonna do in a scenario where the only type of punishment is a "suspicion" that we don't know for sure what will happen? (probably removes the ability for that player to cheat, helpful, but still not winning the match).

When have I really gave that much of a **** about mechanics. You started actually talking about reads and suddenly you pull a gheb? Not cool.

That's not the only punishment FFS everything you are saying to discredit this is wrong and I'm not sure if ignorant of the rules or scum.

 

[Kantrip]

(and that's not paranoia but a legitimate concern to how you are responding to this very logical idea)

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Washed.

Cop can check every match up to the final.

We have like... 4 players we confidently think are town. Only 2 make it to the final. With a loser's bracket and everything, we are guaranteed to get at least 2 of those 4 in the finals. We only need those. Everyone else is eventually going to let one of our super clears pass. We only lose if one of our top townreads is wrong.

Actually J has warned me in the distant past that it's possible one of our supertown reads could actually be scum. Don't count the possibility out.

Also can the cop really check every match per round? I was under the impression it was just one. I honestly can't see scum being given nothing to deal with a scenario like this, and we have no idea about the varying degree of wincons. There are variables you have yet to take into account because they're not available to us. Please keep that in mind.

 

[ranmaru]

Over Circus? I don't particularly care much for Kantrip but I still think Circus took up the most scummy slot in the game.

Possibly. Circus is still in the main pool, that is me reminding kantrip I also don't mind either of them going tomorrow either. One of those three I'd like to be removed, and I want to read Circus more as well. I'm also thinking more along the lines of "If they are pretty scummy, I'll remove them" lately, instead of just choosing who I really feel MUST be scum. Rather, I'm considering also going an easy route. The same easy route you get when a cop claims and someone CC's, you get an easy 50/50 chance of scum/town. Kantrip and Soup fall under this, as does Gheb. Kantrip as I have said, only comes in to potshot, and now is talking mechanical only because he was pushed to do so, so he can 'stay' and carry us and not be a threat.

Sure, we only have one removal and the coppings, but I am not going to let it force me to ONLY REMOVE THE MOST SCUMMIEST. I'm simply fine with those I find very possible in being scum. Those being circus/kantrip/soup.

i know, i was saying that so the guys in the room could back me up

Oh lol. Excuse me then, that was me going "Wait this guy forgot something...", didn't think of it that way. K.

 

[Kantrip]

My first is for town to win. My second is to do my best. Creating a mold for the winners when we have no good idea what we'll be up against during this and expecting us to be magically right in everything is both not fun and leaves a lot of room for error that we can't afford. And, really, what are scum gonna do in a scenario where the only type of punishment is a "suspicion" that we don't know for sure what will happen? (probably removes the ability for that player to cheat, helpful, but still not winning the match).

When have I really gave that much of a **** about mechanics. You started actually talking about reads and suddenly you pull a gheb? Not cool.

Also, this is about reads. Town reads on the top of your reads list. Scum reads at the bottom. Mod clear at the very top. Oh hey, it's a read list that directly translates to a tier list. How convenient that we can let the towniest players survive while the scummy ones are voted out! Oh wait, that's kind of like lynching!

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

(and that's not paranoia but a legitimate concern to how you are responding to this very logical idea)

i have a super bad habit of trying to shoot down anything i find unfun

for awhile i was leading crusades against claiming itself, let alone massclaiming on a whole because i thought it was terrible and ruined games. the things you don't know, kantrip

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Also, this is about reads. Town reads on the top of your reads list. Scum reads at the bottom. Mod clear at the very top. Oh hey, it's a read list that directly translates to a tier list. How convenient that we can let the towniest players survive while the scummy ones are voted out! Oh wait, that's kind of like lynching!

i h8 u so much fk u bby

 

[Kantrip]

Actually J has warned me in the distant past that it's possible one of our supertown reads could actually be scum. Don't count the possibility out.

Also can the cop really check every match per round? I was under the impression it was just one. I honestly can't see scum being given nothing to deal with a scenario like this, and we have no idea about the varying degree of wincons. There are variables you have yet to take into account because they're not available to us. Please keep that in mind.

Just one. If it finds cheating they are OUT OF THE TOURNAMENT.

Anyone who cheats to disobey the system will win a match they weren't supposed to. So then the tourney cop knows which match to review.

Tada!

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

That's not the only punishment FFS everything you are saying to discredit this is wrong and I'm not sure if ignorant of the rules or scum.

it...is? at least from what i've read of the rules, we have the suspicion mechanic and that's it after we use the cop and our removal.

 

[Kantrip]

i have a super bad habit of trying to shoot down anything i find unfun

for awhile i was leading crusades against claiming itself, let alone massclaiming on a whole because i thought it was terrible and ruined games. the things you don't know, kantrip

Well that directly contradicts our win condition in this case. I have proposed literally the best plan for town to win and you are shooting it down because it is anti-fun.

You know what bothers me though? That even if you don't like this for stupid personal reasons, you still think the same of me for having outed it. Regardless of your stance on the idea, you have to admit it is really pro-town.

 

[Kantrip]

it...is? at least from what i've read of the rules, we have the suspicion mechanic and that's it after we use the cop and our removal.

We have cop checking matches, removing cheaters.

 

[Kantrip]

Example Tier List:

God Tier
(Tourney Cop/Tourney Cop Clear)

S Tier
Wots All This Then? (Orboknown/JDietz43)
PrivateJoker-Brown

A Tier
Super Fabulous (-Masquerain/Ranmaru)
Red Ruy

B Tier
Picture Perfect (J/WashedLaundry)
soup

C Tier
Ryker giraffelasergun
pawndidater2

D Tier
thethirdkoopa
Potassium

E Tier
Shocodoro Blagshidect (Sephiroths Masamune/Xonar)
Anomandaris_Rake
Gheb_01

You face someone who is higher tiered than you, you let them win. Failure to do so will result in immediate distrust of the entire town and the suspicion mechanic being used on you to ensure you lose your next match for your efforts. Cop can watch people they're worried about not complying or people that have already broken the trust. They will be caught cheating if they try to disobey, which is even more incentive to keep with the tier list.

someone give me a good reason this isn't the exact way we ensure a town victory? The tier list does NOT have to look like this, as this was just an example and we could agree upon a universal one.

For visibility. I'm out

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Just one. If it finds cheating they are OUT OF THE TOURNAMENT.

Anyone who cheats to disobey the system will win a match they weren't supposed to. So then the tourney cop knows which match to review.

Tada!

Still not accounting for the variable of scum and what it can do as a response. You're seeing what's in front of you but not taking the whole view into account. It's not so cut and dry.

And honestly I'm not just going to let people beat me cause others think they're townier than me. **** that noise.

 

[ranmaru]

You also don't know if some people will be stubborn and cheat anyways. They may have a wincon for it. They may just want to win and sneak by, because they don't town read that person.

Let's just find scum.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Well that directly contradicts our win condition in this case. I have proposed literally the best plan for town to win and you are shooting it down because it is anti-fun.

You know what bothers me though? That even if you don't like this for stupid personal reasons, you still think the same of me for having outed it. Regardless of your stance on the idea, you have to admit it is really pro-town.

...

really

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Possibly. Circus is still in the main pool, that is me reminding kantrip I also don't mind either of them going tomorrow either. One of those three I'd like to be removed, and I want to read Circus more as well. I'm also thinking more along the lines of "If they are pretty scummy, I'll remove them" lately, instead of just choosing who I really feel MUST be scum. Rather, I'm considering also going an easy route. The same easy route you get when a cop claims and someone CC's, you get an easy 50/50 chance of scum/town. Kantrip and Soup fall under this, as does Gheb. Kantrip as I have said, only comes in to potshot, and now is talking mechanical only because he was pushed to do so, so he can 'stay' and carry us and not be a threat.

Sure, we only have one removal and the coppings, but I am not going to let it force me to ONLY REMOVE THE MOST SCUMMIEST. I'm simply fine with those I find very possible in being scum. Those being circus/kantrip/soup.




Oh lol. Excuse me then, that was me going "Wait this guy forgot something...", didn't think of it that way. K.

I understand this, actually. I just think the only option for me is Circus bar him coming in and working miracles on this thread (or maybe just my heart).

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Oh christ, we're back to square one with this goddamn game with people focusing on aspects of my play instead of the whole of it. The more this day lingers on, the more it becomes irrelevant in the aspect of everything. I didn't mind Rake's rebuttal to why he got the text, and I doubt there will be anymore information out of him besides his current appeal. Kantrip's tier list thing seems like a huge waste of time. I remember having a plan of sorts coming into this day but honestly, 2 weeks can take a lot out of you. I hardly remember half of what I wanted to do and I'm only grasping at pieces of it at this point.

I honestly don't have a preference as to who to remove. I'm starting to feel the whole "Removal" thing is actually useless in the first place. You're either taking a chance by removing a maf, or you're just lessening how many town we have stacked against them. Let's take a look at the leaderboards, shall we?

..NAME....PT....1.2.3.4.5.6..
.............................
..GHEB....06....W.W._._._._..
..PAWN....06....W.W._._._._..
..SOUP....06....W.W._._._._..
.............................
...PJB....05....B.W._._._._..
.............................
..POTA....04....L.W._._._._..
...RYU....04....L.W._._._._..
.............................
.FABIO....03....W.F._._._._..
..PIXP....03....W.F._._._._..
.............................
.KOOPS....02....L.L._._._._..
..RAKE....02....L.L._._._._..
..WOTS....02....F.B._._._ _..
.............................
.CHOCO....01....F.L._._._ _..
.............................
.G-RAF....00....F.F._._._ _..
:::::::::::::::::::::

The only beneficial I see here is Gheb/Circus, who we've already talked to death about already. The only way I'd agree to a removal of any sort is if it would boost a player from elimination who I think is townie enough for it. In this case, both GLG and Shoco are bound to get eliminated at this point, and WOTT, a universal town-read I might add, is not looking good either. You need to stop looking at this from a perspective of 'who's scum' and start looking at it like 'who isn't scum.' 'who i can trust'Town-reads are much more relevant and much more important in this game, because it allows a trust and it doesn't stagnate the game where people are jumping up and down about their scum-reads who are idly sitting by winning games. It allows us to create plans to ensure townies and only townies progress further in the game. the three people I listed are people who are (mostly) town-read by everyone. Instead of playing this like you're being forced to remove someone, you need to play it smart.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Well that directly contradicts our win condition in this case. I have proposed literally the best plan for town to win and you are shooting it down because it is anti-fun.

Nah, I'm personally contradicting it because I do find it anti-fun. But publicly, I'm contradicting it because I don't think it's fully thought through and you're so busy trying to prove yourself town that you're not looking.

You know what bothers me though? That even if you don't like this for stupid personal reasons, you still think the same of me for having outed it. Regardless of your stance on the idea, you have to admit it is really pro-town.

Cool shoes, Gheb totally also posted a bunch of bright **** that was incredibly ProTown, didn't help him in the slightest. Face it, every single member of this game has done something that could arguably help the town at one point or another, even Gheb. There are still 4 scum in that pool. They didn't stop existing, there aren't like 4 phantom members or some **** not visibly playing this game in a hotel room on their own or anything. When a game has gone 70 pages and there's no imminent threat of a lynch for ****ing up, as well as a slew of alternative game mechanics, you run into a situation where even the scum will say **** that's arguably ProTown to very ProTown because it helps them out from time to time.

This is literally my gameplan every time as scum: come in and act as ProTown as I can, even if it means horribly bussing the **** out of my mates to do so.

You're not clear for bringing this up, considering that this idea had already been floating around in a smaller form (forfeiting/throwing against the cop clear) for awhile now. You have offered nothing on the scumreading side of the spectrum, just continued to hold me at arm's reach and not push that read any further. You continue to dodge scumreading entirely because you think it can only be done in the past and not the present, or that you need 70 pages to decide a read. Ever since you were called out early, you have acted like a *****, throwing matches and acting like a sheep for some reason I don't ****ing understand. I don't want to call you town in the slightest because you fit that profile of a background player occasionally popping up to say just enough good advice as you can think of before disappearing again, but there are parts of your play I can't make fit into a scum player's mentality quite right. You're not my top choice for a reason but you still have sent up enough red flags to have you third or fourth on that list.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

The minimum number of Days that must take place before the tournament begins is decreased from 6 to 4.

We literally have a day left before the tournament begins. We need to think smarter, not harder. I feel like I'm speaking common sense here but I guess people like Ran are too wrapped up in their mindset that this is traditional mafia, because it isn't. I think I've talked this point before but I wanna see how people feel about the current standings, and what should be done about it. Then, I'll go from there. I think I remembered what plan I had in store actually, I guess I just needed a refresher.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

ebwop: and **** isn't it so easy to come in and suggest protown things to do without actually having any repercussions for yourself on them because it's so much harder to draw reads from mechanical discussion? just ask gheb!

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

We literally have a day left before the tournament begins. We need to think smarter, not harder. I feel like I'm speaking common sense here but I guess people like Ran are too wrapped up in their mindset that this is traditional mafia, because it isn't. I think I've talked this point before but I wanna see how people feel about the current standings, and what should be done about it. Then, I'll go from there. I think I remembered what plan I had in store actually, I guess I just needed a refresher.

look i don't give a **** that it's not traditional mafia, the whole "we need to read people" element is still part of this game and we need to act as such. we've been over this.

talk to me about the plan i laid out above for tomorrow.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Let me just get this out right now:

If you were paired against someone you town-read, would you take the risk of throwing for them, or winning for yourself? The obvious answer seems like for yourself, right? Wrong. I think if we can start to coordinate the brackets and how matches are played out, then we can turn this around. Instead of directly pressuring a player with one measly removal, you should start pressuring them by elimination. Is there anyone who is currently in low-standing that you want gone? That you want to keep? Think about it. WOTS is definitely someone I want to keep around. So is GLG based on previous results (I really doubt maf would go ahead and poison themselves).