Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[Picture Perfect]

Soup removal not prudent at this time.

even then i wouldn't blow it on him. i somehow feel he wants it.

 

[Picture Perfect]

They're just reads. They're nothing more. What are you going to do with him? Shout at me until you're blue in the face about them? How does it affect me? Why do I care? If anything, I am more interested in people's intention to give reads instead of the reads themselves. That's how I'm playing this game. You scum-read me? Pat yourself on the back. It will be easier to discern your intentions based on this. Should I be up in arms about it? Not really. Super Fab could write ten walls about me and I would probably skim over them.

so then put the gogdamn effort in you ****ing *****

i'm goign to blow up your alert list until you do something instead of saying "i don't care bluh bluh i'm so tired of this game bluh bluh gj you called me scum bluh bluh nothing matters bluh bluh i'm so emo"

 

[Picture Perfect]

It has. I'm not gonna say I've been keeping an ace up my sleeve but every time you guys imply that I'm not playing this game makes me laugh. I'm trying to read back and I was going to give reads-list actually.

You have my interest.

Enough to actually make me use real punctuation.

Please don't get mad at me, but you're getting to the end of my rope because you're not the only slot acting like this and it's incredibly bothersome that multiple people are acting like this. There's lurking but this is just a whole new beast.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Somebody asked me if gheb said anything interesting in the hotel room, can't find the exact quote.

All that happened was I decided where to eat and the next day Gheb came in and said he was okay with it.

can we remove him yet

he's seriously prod-dodging at this point

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Mod-can you clarify if scum know each others identities?

I cannot.

 

[Picture Perfect]

I'll let people in on my thought process on this game.

I don't believe that all this arguing and trifling about other players is beneficial to the course of the game. Pressure is not as heavy without voting, which is an essential part of reading a player. Removing the key factor of votes makes it much harder to discern who is being genuine and who isn't. Scum essentially has nothing to worry about other than winning matches and keeping themselves in check.

Y'know what's sad is that he's actually right about this. Countless times, I've thought "oh I'm going to pressure this player! ...oh wait how am i going to do that?" Like, to give a shortlist, I'd love to pressure Kantrip and Pawn at least on my own but I can't find a good way to do it. Kantrip's already fried and Pawn's so little of a presence I can't just spam him until I get something out of him.

This is why I want someone removed too. No matter what, it'll give me the first piece of hard ****ing evidence in this game and that's all I need to really put this all together. I just hope we find scum from it.

I'm going to tell you right now that this game has practically paved itself and I think town has a very large chance of winning at this point. WATT is very obvious town. So is PJB. So is Picture Perfect. So is Super Fab. I think we all agree on this. You know what's ironic about that? All those players are consistently posting. Why would scum bother themselves with caring about all of this? They wouldn't. It's why calling people scum doesn't really matter in this game because the only threat you can make against them is writing more crap that they're not going to read.

i find it ironic you're describing your own play in a nutshell
as well as gheb
as well as kantrip i think

However, will a Scum just not post at all? Not care at all? No. Read what I said about the removal factor again and put this into mind. Scum would jump at a opportunity to remove a townie in a heartbeart. No question. Why? Because that's the only removal. What else does Scum have to worry about after that? Nothing.

The cop and whatever the suspecting mechanic does in cycle 2. It's not like that's the only bullet left in the barrel.

Once we remove someone, we can properly start grouping players and playing a much more strategical game. We shouldn't just be stacking our Byes on people universally town-read, instead we should be taking more risks. I think it was Shoco who mentioned it, but I'm actually open to the idea of Bye'ing scum players against town ones. Why? Because 3 points is better than 2, and even if a townie loses against another then it's easy to just bye them. Does that make sense? Am I being clear here? Please stop me for elaboration if you need it.

Alternatively we can just have the cop review any matches we think they're scummy. 3 may be better than 1 but 1 is better than 0.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Sysmatically speaking:

Scum has 6 points. He received one bye and he won one game.
Townie has 3 points. He received one bye and lost one game.

Scum has 4 points. He recieved two byes.
Townie has 4 points. He recieved two byes.

Scum has 2 points. He lost both games, and was caught for cheating
Townie has 5 points. He won both games.

Do you see how this stacks up?

I do but your math is off in the outer examples and your inner example is talking about a scenario that has at least two other phases involved.

 

[Picture Perfect]

I know I was a firm believer of scum not having to cheat, but I'm starting to question myself as I believe that scum will, and can cheat. Winning is more important than getting a Bye. Surface game isn't important to scum here, it's all about planning.

I know someone is going to say: "But soup, if we bye the mafia then what will the tourney cop do!?!?!?" There's more than one mafia. Throw scum into the lion's den. Force their hand. Don't let them get off scot free.

So would you want to do this in tandem? But what's the point? If we try to direct the cop, scum will be able to react to that.

 

[Picture Perfect]

gog soup it's like we have to bribe you with all the gold in the world just to get **** outta you but you seem to be on the right path whenever you do show up

 

[pawndidater2]

So Pawn, are you still lost as to what to do? Just wondering. You only seem to come in to respond to our requests. I don't know if that's how you usually play though. What do you think of the recent conversations about Soup and his theories as well?

I'm kind of lost, but I think more than anything I'm just unmotivated. The lack of things we can actually do is kind of getting to me that way. I think we should remove someone next day phase, it should throw some things into perspective. Soup didn't really say anything new, he just copypasta'd some old stuff and stated the obvious.

 

[Picture Perfect]

talk to me about 2129 and 2130.

Responded to them in particular.

This is why I've always been more careful about my soup read. A lot of people are getting entirely wrapped up in Soup's AtE but when he drops the bull**** act he does start to be useful. He's taking a different approach to the game and, while I disagree with it because I can't really view what all he's doing or thinking, he's doing something with it. I want more out of him, because it's clear he's got opinions on things going on, but he needs to start showing them. Right now, he fits right into that exact group he calls scum (advocating the removal of Gheb, if Gheb is town, but still actively lurking because they don't have a lynch to fear and therefore don't have to talk with town). This is a good start but it's not nearly enough to satiate the doubts others have for him. It's clear he knows more than he's saying but for whatever reason, he won't say it.

 

[Picture Perfect]

I'm kind of lost, but I think more than anything I'm just unmotivated. The lack of things we can actually do is kind of getting to me that way. I think we should remove someone next day phase, it should throw some things into perspective. Soup didn't really say anything new, he just copypasta'd some old stuff and stated the obvious.

where's my table, it's flippin' time

 

[Picture Perfect]

I was about to go into this.

Player List:
1. Wots All This Then? (Orboknown/JDietz43)
2. pawndidater2
3. Ryker giraffelasergun
4. PrivateJoker-Brown
5. Shocodoro Blagshidect (Sephiroths Masamune/Xonar)
6. thethirdkoopa
7. Red Ruy
8. Gheb_01
9. Picture Perfect (J/WashedLaundry)
10. soup
11. Potassium
12. Super Fabulous (-Masquerain/Ranmaru)
13. Anomandaris_Rake

Green = Town
Light Green = Lean town
Yellow = Null
Orange = Lean scum
Red = Scum

There are 4 mafia. There are 9 townies. Removing a townie would be troublesome for us, but not anything we can bounce back. Scum is at a disadvantage in the numbers game. Nabe specifically gave them a ton of background power because of this. Scum is going to jump at an opportunity to remove a townie. That's evident enough. It might be risky but it's worth the risk and if people agree enough to it, I can guarantee that a removal is very beneficial to us. I don't feel like repeating myself, but If you guys really need more elabroation then I guess I can continue onwards.

Talk to me more about your scumteam. How do you fit Gheb together with Shoco and Potato, two slots he's been advocating as scum for a long while into the game? I know Gheb's got a massive bussing tendency but I feel like he'd hold off in this game considering he draws little to no credit for successfully bussing them and hurting his team's chances at victory tremendously for doing so.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Alright, now can anyone tell me, based on your Gheb read, that you believe scum was on the Gheb wagon?

Removal Votecount
Gheb (

): Ryu, Koops, Pixp, Soup

I know there were others on it before, but it seems some of you backed out This is actually just as important too.

Thank you for this, this is something I've neglected but is actually another good point.

Superbitch was on the wagon but dropped off. PJB has said he's suspicious of Gheb but not enough to remove him. It was entirely my hotel room and you that put him at L-2. Others continued to complain about the risks. I get that they're worried because it's the only surefire lynch in the game but we still shouldn't be so scared to use it.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Fab was on there, and I think one more was. Koops I can see being scum if we believe scum to be on the wagon.

Depends on his flip.

 

[Picture Perfect]

you mean the whole "let's give scum the byes" plan? I think it's totally something we can do in the future, yes. I'd want to get the obvtownies as much inside info, and accumulate some points to fall back on first. One we've got ourselves some points to work with, then we'll actually know how we want to manipulate things.

For example, Gheb has a pretty good lead right now. He's got 6 points already. Even if he's a scummer that we could all agree on, givign him the bye isn't a good idea because it won't do enough to damage his point total, it'll just give him a free boost. If we want gheb's points to come down, somebody has to beat him, or catch him cheating (even better).

I'm not far behind him with my 5 points, but I am behind. I probably won't want another bye, at least not for awhile. Thing is, those byes do provide valuable information, and it's only going to get more and more valuable as the game goes on. Once we start finding out who plays what characters, and what moves they tend to use to cover options, being able to actively choose what gaps of information to fill in is going to be a huge asset that I don't want to give scum during the final round.

This is why I'm rather for Ruy's plan. I'm just worried about handing scum characters with banned moves because I know multiple players have found them.

I think we can learn some things about the character roster.

 

[Picture Perfect]

I can't even remember it. I recall disliking how Potassium got 2-0'd by him. Speaking of, would anyone be up to removing Potassium?

Have thought about it, I would not at the moment. I'm down for Gheb and really Gheb alone. He's by far the most divisive slot in the game and I feel we learn a lot about multiple slots just by removing him.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Not important honestly. I'd trust Tourney Cop's judgement and even then the Tourney Cop isn't specifically for the town either. He's actually more than an indy than anything. Need I remind everyone he only needs to catch cheaters[/b[ not mafia.

Oh good, I'm not the only one who's considered this.

I'd assume he wins with town. I don't think Nabe would throw an actual indy in this game, mostly due to all of us having individual wincons in the first place (even if they're not that different from one another). But I have been aware that the Tourney Cop has always been different enough. I'd rather not cause an indy scare, especially not right now.

 

[Picture Perfect]

You mean the fact that he claimed to use a dark green move, when he actually used lime green? I dunno, I don't think that means anything. All it means is that rake sucks at colors. That dark green almost looks brown, afterall.

say more please i'm completely lost

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

This is why I'm rather for Ruy's plan. I'm just worried about handing scum characters with banned moves because I know multiple players have found them.

I think we can learn some things about the character roster.

I'm in a match with koops right now. Terra has a banned move.

 

[Picture Perfect]

I prefer Gheb before Shoco really. He and Seph are still null to me, so not really seeing Shoco > Gheb.

Okay this is actually curious, why do you have them as null? Even though I'm still seeing traces of obnoxiously trolly townRamses, I still don't trust that slot farther than I can throw them.

Which I can't.

Because they're digital.

 

[Picture Perfect]

I'm in a match with koops right now. Terra has a banned move.

GOGDAMMIT SOUP

WHY DO YOU PEOPLE JUST LOVE LETTING CATS OUTTA BAGS

IT'S LIKE THERE"S REASONS FOR THEM TO BE IN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE

YES, BAGS ARE ****TY PLACES FOR CATS BUT SOMETHING'S GOTTA HOLD 'EM

 

[#HBC | Joker]

or y'know they're being reluctant. i want gheb's removal because it gives me so much information yet everyone drags their damn heels.

What information do you get from a gheb townflip?

 

[Picture Perfect]

No, but rake explicitly said that it was a single color "darkish green", and this was his main.

y'know that whole gheb/rake scumteam i was angling at d1

it hasn't gone away completely

 

[Picture Perfect]

What information do you get from a gheb townflip?

Y'know how soup brought up that scum want to remove town and would jump at the chance? That's a good starting place. It'd also tell me where not to look. I'd certainly be interested in looking at his scumreads a little more closely to see if he was onto something or not. I have options, you just don't want me to even use them. >:r

 

[Picture Perfect]

That's... curious, actually. Rake was being so ****ing derpy and nonchalant about the whole match phase thing, in general. If he thought he used the darker green, then he should've been pissed that he lost. Do you think he didn't give a **** because he and gheb are partners?

y'know that whole gheb/rake scumteam i was angling at d1

it really hasn't gone away completely

you should really reconsider

why the hell are you revealing this all now anyway when you've been sitting on it for nearly a whole phase

 

[Picture Perfect]

How did we not catch this **** last night?! urghh, I'm mad at myself now.

ebwop: oh okay

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

GOGDAMMIT SOUP

WHY DO YOU PEOPLE JUST LOVE LETTING CATS OUTTA BAGS

IT'S LIKE THERE"S REASONS FOR THEM TO BE IN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE

YES, BAGS ARE ****TY PLACES FOR CATS BUT SOMETHING'S GOTTA HOLD 'EM

oops sorry :I

 

[Picture Perfect]

That would actually explain a lot, because gheb literally used the same move over and over, and it seemed really dumb to me that rake kept using **** that lost to it over and over. The only thing is, he didn't use the same thing to lose over and over. It's almost like he was still trying to win, but he was just bad at it.

Go on .

 

[Picture Perfect]

oops sorry :I

LIKE HOLY **** MAN

 

[Picture Perfect]

YOU LITERALLY SAID THAT IN RESPONSE TO THE EXACT POST WHERE I SAID I'M WORRIED ABOUT HANDING CHARACTERS WITH BANNED MOVES TO SCUM

LIKE WHAT THE **** MAN

I AM MAD

 

[#HBC | Joker]

A lot of this stuff about the rake/gheb match was stuff i wanted to go over in the hotel room with you, where gheb, and I guess rake, wouldn't see it.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

YOU LITERALLY SAID THAT IN RESPONSE TO THE EXACT POST WHERE I SAID I'M WORRIED ABOUT HANDING CHARACTERS WITH BANNED MOVES TO SCUM

LIKE WHAT THE **** MAN

I AM MAD

 

[Picture Perfect]

...sigh.

Alright, rather than continuing to *****, I think it's time we do something. We can't delete the post so scum have at least one character with a banned move and all the ways in the world to abuse that. Let's try to make something of it.

We have Ruy's plan, right? The one where we out every single character we've used and their entire movelist, yes? We may as well put this plan in motion, but we need to do two things in order to really make it work:

1) We have to check characters. Catching scum in a lie is great but we need to do the homework and make sure they're not lying. Thankfully we have matches to play at night so this will allow us to doublecheck this pretty effectively well.
2) We need to find a way to punish scum after catching them in a lie, should they, in fact, lie.

The convenient thing about this is that it forces scum to play to our hand more instead of ours to theirs. Yes, they still have the option of cheating, but we can at least deny them the option of using a banned move.

The problem I have with this is characters with an overlapping movepool. All three of my characters have had very similar color pools with only one move varying between the three of them.

 

[Picture Perfect]

soup i h8 u pls die

 

[Picture Perfect]

A lot of this stuff about the rake/gheb match was stuff i wanted to go over in the hotel room with you, where gheb, and I guess rake, wouldn't see it.

Then I can wait. If you'd rather discuss the finer points of it there, then I'm all for it.

With that said, are you more considerate on the Gheb removal? I still think that's the biggest point of contention for finding the rest of the scum.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Gheb/Rake still possible, so is Gheb/Pawn, though I dunno about Gheb/Pawn/Rake given that Rake was so adamant about removing him.

lemme think about my working scumteam. i'm just as skeptical about gheb continually throwing the same move and winning as i am about rake continually throwing **** that loses to it when it's clear gheb's not changing his color.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Also everyone needs to comment on the plan before we go forward. I don't want to come back to find character claims in here.

Soup, I want more out of you. keep talking, I don't care if you don't agree with what's going on, but please keep ****ing talking. You are smart enough to contribute to discussions and it allows us to get a better read out of you.

I still want everyone to look through the room change list and find one person they find scummy for leaving out of that list. Again, there is at least one ****ing scum on there.

Outside of that, keep playing matches. There's just four.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Then I can wait. If you'd rather discuss the finer points of it there, then I'm all for it.

With that said, are you more considerate on the Gheb removal? I still think that's the biggest point of contention for finding the rest of the scum.

it doesn't really matter much anymore. I mostly wanted to just point out that gheb is throwing the same move over and over, and that he'd probably keep doing it until he lost. But that's already out there, and if he is aligned with rake, then he knew about it when we were discussing it, because rake was in the room.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I do have info about characters to share though, so that will come tonight.