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Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

Picture Perfect

J|Washed Laundry
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Are you talking about Kantplay? It really was more so of a sympathy pass and the fact I was becoming apathetic towards the whole situation. It also doesn't help that I'm kinda tired. Either way, I don't town-read him fully yet, and I actually still lean on the possibility of him being scum, as him being lazy doesn't justify not saying anything at all. He's been putting off that Rake read like he really doesn't have anything to say, but it's weird because he seemed so confident about it. It amkes me believe that he did not actually have confidence and that my original lead on him (I'll go fetch it if you need me to) is actually correct.

If this is about Rake, then let me get to that.
It's about you. It's about Rake. It's about Kantrip. Hell, it's even a little directed at Gheb, as he's shown less willingness to participate in scumhunting and more in discussing the mechanics as well.

But either way, this is exactly what I want you to do. Keep doing it.
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
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6,865
Kantrip, I don't take back that what I don't like of you this game is that you're very certain of yourself. This post reads like me when I get angry, but It's hard to discern what kind of angry you're being right now here. You showed interest to check the thread earlier, and yes, you can get to things tommorow but was it really that ****ing hard to answer him? You even go so far into your post saying literally "Rake did some things islike-able but I can't really recall them right now without a re-read." If it was solid enough to state it, then why is it so hard to put into context? I don't understand why you couldn't all that time you were complaining about getting to it tomorrow to just spit it out.
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
Joined
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6,865
It's about you. It's about Rake. It's about Kantrip. Hell, it's even a little directed at Gheb, as he's shown less willingness to participate in scumhunting and more in discussing the mechanics as well.

But either way, this is exactly what I want you to do. Keep doing it.

I'm going to be honest with you that I have skimmed a lot of what's going on. However, it gets a tad frustrating when you write a wall and you leave things to be answered and nobody ever even bothers with it. I suppose that's where some of my apathy came from.

Here's my original read on Rake, I don't know if it's changed. I might go read him again. Lay out the basis of what you dislike and then we talk about this like gentlemen.
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
6,865
I have like, literally no problem with Rake. I don't understand his hate at all and I have skimmed some of his posts but his interaction with me was fine. Is there something specific someone can tell me about him that you dislike? I'm really angry with the game because I feel like a ton of people are stating intent to dislike someone but not following through as to why it is. Maybe I'm being impatient, but if I'm writing this wall for you going off 2 days then **** people, it shouldn't be hard. Is everyone just afraid of being wrong or something? The initial feeling I got from Rake is that he doesn't want to be wrong here. He's taking his time and I actually like it more than dislike it. That's a gut feeling I get from his posts.
 

#HBC | Joker

Space Marine
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I recall seeing something in the rules about us voting people for suspicion. Not sure if that's just referring to the tourney cop, but it was kind of worded in a way that made me think we were supposed to be voting on it as an actual gameplay mechanic. Lemme see if I can dig that out.
Ok, i found out what the suspicion thing is, and it doesn't come until the main 8-man bracket. Basically, in Cycle 2, we won't be voting on Byes anymore, we'll be putting people under Suspicion. Anyone under Suspicion will be at a disadvantage for their matches.

This is just further proof that figuring out who scum are is A BIG DEAL. We'll literally have the ability to actively handicap them later on.
 

#HBC | Joker

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Super Fab plays to the town meta of both heads, even if they're incredibly indecisive, but it's fairly obvious Ran started playing without listening to Joey and they had no conversations about their reads. Thus, when Joey entered with contradictory reads to what Ran had been doing, it obviously caused some weird schism in the hydra's views.
^It just seems legit to me, i dunno what to tell you.

I think I said it before, but my scumread on you was never very strong. The fact that your reads were in such strong opposition to mine just kind of colored my view of your play, but there's nothing actually that scummy about it.
 

#HBC | Nabe

Beneath it all, he had H-cups all along
Joined
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MOD-Can you clarify on this?
The Tourney Cop's public guess takes place either at the end of the Cycle 1 Match phase where the points lie such that the tournament brackets can be defined from them, or at the end of the sixth Cycle 1 Match phase if the first condition is fulfilled prior to that phase.
 

Picture Perfect

J|Washed Laundry
Joined
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Messages
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Just out of the frame.
I'm going to be honest with you that I have skimmed a lot of what's going on. However, it gets a tad frustrating when you write a wall and you leave things to be answered and nobody ever even bothers with it. I suppose that's where some of my apathy came from.

Here's my original read on Rake, I don't know if it's changed. I might go read him again. Lay out the basis of what you dislike and then we talk about this like gentlemen.
I dislike Rake precisely because he refuses to do anything. I've said this before but the most he's done in thread is to show up and say "I like Soup, deal with it" and refuse to comment on much anything else until his reads solidify. He's been actively doing nothing and I've been yelling at him for playing like scum ever since. I don't see a scrap of town intent--I don't see why he feels the need to be so preoccupied with being right here. Of all the slots that call-out post I made was aimed towards, he is by far the most scummy of the slots because I haven't seen a scrap of town play from it. I feel like I have to pull teeth just to get him to comment on anything, he's spent half his time just ******** about him being lazy.

It's scummy as ****.
 

Picture Perfect

J|Washed Laundry
Joined
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Messages
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Ok, i found out what the suspicion thing is, and it doesn't come until the main 8-man bracket. Basically, in Cycle 2, we won't be voting on Byes anymore, we'll be putting people under Suspicion. Anyone under Suspicion will be at a disadvantage for their matches.

This is just further proof that figuring out who scum are is A BIG DEAL. We'll literally have the ability to actively handicap them later on.
holy **** that helps
 

Super Fabulous

Joey|Ranmaru
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
364
Hey PP. I just want to state I'm almost done with my catch up. I deff want to talk about your reads and bounce some ideas when I'm done.
 

Super Fabulous

Joey|Ranmaru
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
364
Replies to early replies first:

Ran you're not gonna get anything form kantrip when there is almost literally no incentive for him to do so. The tourney cop can only help out so much. We still need to win matches
That was Joey. Yet we shouldn't let anyone get away with excuses like that. PP explained that very well.

I really fail to see how this is particularly scummy at all. You're grasping at straws here, Ran, really.
I never said that was scummy. I was just annoyed he was psuedo-scumhunting while not substantiating his reads.
 

#HBC | Nabe

Beneath it all, he had H-cups all along
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Status 1-2

Bye Votecount
PJB (
): Soup, PJB, Wots, Pota, Choco, Pixp

Ryu (
): Ryu
Pixp (
): Fabio


Request Queue
Pota > Room 2
PJB > Room 1





I think I'm obligated to point out that the rules state for the action for voting on the bye to be Vote but by all means carry on with what you're doing as long as it's consistent
 

Super Fabulous

Joey|Ranmaru
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
364
This was going to be a big catch-up or re-read, but I instead felt it was better to just re-organize it into the players the quotes came from, so here they are:

[collapse="PJB"]
soup is absolutely not fine. The more I talk to him, the more clear it becomes.

Rake's opinion that soup is fine either has malicious intention behind it, or it was just an uber rushed opinion. I'm thinking the latter is likely.
Quote placer. PJB strong opposition to Soup. Nothing to note.

soup is absolutely not fine. The more I talk to him, the more clear it becomes.

Rake's opinion that soup is fine either has malicious intention behind it, or it was just an uber rushed opinion. I'm thinking the latter is likely.
This seems like PJB is really sitting on a strong scumread on Soup. He is pushing, he is scumhunting here. More later.

The fact that PP fed soup this line, and then soup proceeded to dive headlong into his "I'm soup and I'm frustrated about mafia!" act makes me all the more convinced that he is full of baloney.

Soup is not doing ****. All he's doing is sucking the **** of anyone who town reads him, and poopooing anyone that scum reads him. He keeps saying that Kantrip, PP, and WATT are not facilitating productive discussion. The irony is truly palpable.
More stuff about Soup not doing stuff.

ewww, wtf is all this "yo, stop stating things that you think guys! You're clogging the thread!" bull**** I keep seeing? First it's soup, now it's SF.
This I don't like. I don't see the reason to go 'eww' to that, because it isn't something suspicious for us to do.

How is this different from me asking you about your kantrip read? What you accuse Kantrip of is something that has literally just happened for you, as well.

Right now, Kantrip is very much in line with how he was behaving in Scott Pilgrim. He's being open and upfront with his reads, and he's confident about them. There's no wishy washyness, or the bull**** attempts at stirring up conversation that usually indicate indytrip.
I don't see why he says this yet he doesn't even ask Kantrip to substantiate his reads. Something I know PJB has harped on before in the recent large with him. (Bardull, anyone?)

I can see it as an attempt to shut down discussion. The thought crossed my mind, but it's too obvious. nobody who was actually attempting to shut down discussion would be so blatant about it.

It just comes off as Shoco being kind of frustrated, and wanting people to stfu.
I find it off that PJB was really aggressively disgusted with us and Soup telling people to stop clogging the thread, yet he doesn't really care about this. I had to ask him about it for him to say anything.

Soup seems like he has given up on trying to get people to townread him, and honestly, I think that's a bit of an act to make us think he doesn't care about his appearance, therefore is town. Still pretty scummy, to me.

If he is town, he's not being very productive, and he's content with that. Bad townsoup!
I feel this is not a genuine read change. PJB really was scumreading Soup on full-blast. It was most of his scumhunting early on. Notice how there has been less scumhunting and more mechanics talk? He doesn't really have any scumreads right now if I can recall. Yet I wouldn't know because he hasn't really stated reads that has progressed for him. I just had to ask him about his reads. I also don't see how his reasoning makes sense for Soup to be town, and I asked him if it was null but he never really went into it. I just think because of that he doesn't really care. (about finding scum, or helping town, but only to appear like he's helping town)[/collapse]


[collapse="Gheb"]
Don't try to play us for suckers! :bee:

@blue: Both statements need citation. Nothing about WATT's posts disallows other people from making input, not even implicitly. I also don't see them attempting to force anything.
@red: Completely wrong. If what you are accusing WATT of were actually true then it would be a scumtell by all means. You also fail to explain what kind of position you are talking about when you say "such a position" and why they'd want to avoid it.
@green: Why not? In all honesty, it's you who has been making that kind of input - a lot of "captain obvious"-style statements that will either get ignored or be pointed out as such. This looks more like justifying your own play as townie rather than WATT's who really hasn't done anything you've accused him of.

:059:
This post is weird to me. Gheb talks about this post but isn't really looking at Soup as a scumspect ever. I mean it just felt like he analyzed this to just analyze it. Then the rest of the day was just mechanics.

Eh, not so much that I want to keep things secret. It's just that I have nothing too say that you wouldn't expect me to.
Not liking this from Gheb.

Is there something like a bye count?

Fab or PJB seem like decent choices. It probabnly won't matter too much toDay anyway. I'll think about it some more and select a bye tomorrow.

:059:
I don't like that Gheb had given those choices without really stating why. I don't know if this was recent enough for him to have a valid reason not to have elaborated, but if this was a while ago then it still stands.[/collapse]


[collapse="Soup"]
YOU ARE A WONDERFUL PERSON THANK YOU RANMARU JOEY WHOEVER THAT IS I LOVE YOU
This post here seemed unnatural, and it was weird yet I just hoped he was a bro at the time. Yet:

**** Ran you're like golden this game please be ****ing town with me do you see the *********** that is being spewed in this goddamn thread Kantrip is not even close to townie nor was his post anything ****ing good and i just what the hell did I step into the wrong game
This was weird as well. This coming from the Soup who would find it weird for ME to buddy him. (Src: Kary's Metal Gear Newb mafia)

PJB is fine. I can't recall the specific reasons but I did like what he posted earlier and my interaction with him. I feel like his read on me is genuine, and that's really it.
I don't like how Soup's read on PJB is pretty... weak. Yet he finds him super townie.

Don't like how he states this without really giving much reason.

#437
nothing's really changed for me for that slot besides the previous read i have (in my wallpost), is there something that's bothering you about him?
Here Soup mentions nothing has changed for his read on us. Yet:

#450
IDK
Super Fab, Sephonar
He's IDK on us. This seems somewhat opportunistic coming from Soup. He never had a reason to be on this IDK status with us. And he recently stated nothing did change. I would like for him to state where in his original reads this actually expresses an IDK.

#499
No I still kinda lean town on them, but I see where you could be coming from with the whole "Guys look how town I am let me remind you of what town SHOULD be doing by pointing out we need to help the tourney cop even though he has 6 game days to ****ing figure it out" and he doesn't need to us to hold his hand". I can see where you're coming from that point and the fact he just 180'd on me for no transparent reason, which I would think Ranmaru would much more considerate about instead of instigating a read like that at all without concrete evidence behind it (e.g questioning)
This further compounds my dislike for Soup. He gives wishywashyness on us, he still kinda reads us as town but doesn't like the '180'. (When he was the one who 180'd on me) I also find the last sentence (in bold and underlined) to be him trying to use my meta to his advantage (as mafia) to state a conflicting read. I mean, of course I would question, if I had any. The only time I don't is when the information is already there for me. For example, GS#3 I didn't need to question as much, I just instantly found Rake as scum because of his actions in RVS, because of other players.

what pisses me off is that even if i read super fab again and started to dislike him all i can do is advocate that he doesn't get a bye but i can't reallyvote him
This is suspicious to me as well. It just makes me feel he wants to change to me, but is just expressing frustration in case he ever did, not that he ever was going to. I just find this grimy and opportunistic. I mean, why say that? (because he was thinking about it)

im not gonna fight for someone to get a bye so i think if we decide on a bye it should be a majority decision instead of randomly throwing byes around.
can we stop playing favorites with the byes
This is suspicious to me. In the previous quote he mentions that everyone should decide on a bye through majority, yet then he contradicts himself (after Joey opts to BYE'ing PP). This makes me doubt his 'genuine' intentions and makes me think his previous quote was only to seem townie.
 

Shun Goku Satsu Rake

Oriwa Rake. Kaizo ko ni oriwa naru
Joined
May 8, 2012
Messages
3,897
For what it's worth, here's what I think:

Rake is scum. He's by far the most convinced I am of being scum in the game. He continually refuses to help and then *****es about people not understanding him and that stupid fallacious argument he made about scum not putting themselves into the position he is in is ******** and shouldn't be bought by anyone.

When have I refused to help ? I am simply holding a bit back so that the people I'm interested in don't try to shift perspective when dealing with me or the thread. I can't do everything at once, and yes, I'm being a little lazy, and yes, I'm not being a very nice guy about some things, I am helping in my own way and at my own pace, so shoot me. Not a lot has happened so I don't have a lot to work with. I've done the best I can with what is available to me, if you want me to get heavily involved, find a way to interest me by presenting an idea that'll get me going, because so far i don't have anything too concrete of my own making, and from mypov, there are not many actions I can take that'll force my creativity with reads and stream of consciousness posting style so many people know well. There's a whole lot of nothing going on, sure ideas are floating around and all that, but it's just a mess right now, and I feel like how I feel on all of it right now is where I need to be.
 

Super Fabulous

Joey|Ranmaru
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
364
Player List:

1. Wots All This Then? (Orboknown/JDietz43) - nulltown. Like their activity, and what they are trying to do. Don't see anything else that is suspicious from them.

2. pawndidater2 - Null. Found the thread only recently.

3. Ryker - Null. Hasn't even posted.

4. PrivateJoker-Brown - As Joey mentioned, I got a very aggressive tone from him. I will take it as him improving and really taking a more active role this game, yet still being somewhat newbie when it comes to things as 'clogging the thread'. This coming from me, the guy who always was a distraction, is now trying to keep distractions at a minimum. Looking through the thread I notice PJB's contributions as mechanics and asking Rake for reads. See, he does care for reads, yet he doesn't really care when it comes to Kantrip. I think he is really giving Kantrip the benefit of the doubt and doens't care because he's mafia. He hasn't been scumhunting lately and I had to poke reads out of him. I don't find his read change on Soup genuine and don't find it convincing either. I really do not want him BYE'd today.

5. Shocodoro Blagshidect (Sephiroths Masamune/Xonar) - Null. Would appreciate them to catch up, but they say tomorrow, so I shall wait.

6. thethirdkoopa - Null.

7. Red Ruy - Null. Would like for him to have more content, but alas, he's VLA.

8. Gheb_01 Nullscum. He isn't doing anything and won't because of the setup being 'mechanical'. His approach to his play won't help me to read him and it's the same as Rake's approach, but for a different reason.

9. Picture Perfect (J/WashedLaundry) - I like him. Initially was null, but like that he's being sensible, and giving some good direction. I just disagree with his Soup/PJG/Rake reads. I'm cool with having him in our hotel room. In fact... J never came to the Apex hotel room. ;-;

10. soup - Scum. His buddying of me was weird, and his reactions were really weird too. I couldn't tell he was really a bro or not at the time. Yet his turn around lately I no likey. I don't see what prompted him to do so, and I find it opportunistic. His statement "can we stop playing favorites with the byes" was a bit suspicious to me. Why does he want us to stop 'playing favorites' with the bye? Isn't that the point of bying, bye'ing who you think is most townie? I also don't like his reasoning for his PJB read. I also just generally hate everyone going "he's obv town can't you see I don't need to explain it". Now I explained my problem with PJB. People should explain why I may be wrong.

11. Potassium - Still don't like him not wanting to go into his reads. That's about it though. I'll drop him to nullscum.

12. Super Fabulous (-Masquerain/Ranmaru) - We are... FABULOUS.

13. Anomandaris_Rake - Taking the laid back approach, as always. This is a null for me. Him not sticking out his neck won't help me develop a read from him. Getting some of his reads is nice but it still doesn't help me really determine his motives. Null forever. (He will realize that being proactive is much better than being laid back) Some people realize that he isn't as proactive as we'd all like, and he only started doing this playstyle since the newbie hosted by... Soup. Kantrip was there too, and Raz. So they should understand why I get this ultimate null from him. I found him scummy in that game for this, but yet, he's doing it again. I don't mind a cop going here if all else fails. I just have other priorities.
 

#HBC | Joker

Space Marine
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Woah woah woah. Super fab, you're completely misunderstanding something there in your analysis of me. I never changed my read on soup. This whole thing right here
PrivateJoker-Brown said:
Soup seems like he has given up on trying to get people to townread him, and honestly, I think that's a bit of an act to make us think he doesn't care about his appearance, therefore is town. Still pretty scummy, to me.

If he is town, he's not being very productive, and he's content with that. Bad townsoup!​
I feel this is not a genuine read change. PJB really was scumreading Soup on full-blast. It was most of his scumhunting early on. Notice how there has been less scumhunting and more mechanics talk? He doesn't really have any scumreads right now if I can recall. Yet I wouldn't know because he hasn't really stated reads that has progressed for him. I just had to ask him about his reads. I also don't see how his reasoning makes sense for Soup to be town, and I asked him if it was null but he never really went into it. I just think because of that he doesn't really care. (about finding scum, or helping town, but only to appear like he's helping town)
This is not me changing my read on soup. That's me calling him scum, it's literally right there in the words I used. How are you reading that as me changing my read?
 

Super Fabulous

Joey|Ranmaru
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
364
I read it as you reading him as town, yet still doing scummy things as a town read. Can you explain it further please? Also why were you saying "Bad townsoup!" when interacting with him if you were scumreading him?
 

Shun Goku Satsu Rake

Oriwa Rake. Kaizo ko ni oriwa naru
Joined
May 8, 2012
Messages
3,897
I dislike Rake precisely because he refuses to do anything. I've said this before but the most he's done in thread is to show up and say "I like Soup, deal with it" and refuse to comment on much anything else until his reads solidify. He's been actively doing nothing and I've been yelling at him for playing like scum ever since. I don't see a scrap of town intent--I don't see why he feels the need to be so preoccupied with being right here. Of all the slots that call-out post I made was aimed towards, he is by far the most scummy of the slots because I haven't seen a scrap of town play from it. I feel like I have to pull teeth just to get him to comment on anything, he's spent half his time just *****ing about him being lazy.

It's scummy as ****.
So i'm scummy for taking my time and wanting to be right ?

I actually am doing something, if you like, I will quote every single one of my posts, and lay out my exact intention with each and every one of them and tell you what I was hoping to achieve, in such excruciating detail, it would make a EE wall cringe. Why do you think yelling will help ? Have you tried understanding my perspective and trying to work with me yet ? I'll even help you: Name anything you want a strong opinion or my idea on from me and I'll give it to you, but in exchange I'm going to ask the same of you. I have a vested interest in being right, that's why. Not only do I take immense pleasure in being right, but this time, I just want to hit all the scum, win all the ladies and ride into the sunset. Is that so wrong ?

What do you think of Watt's opinion that my content earlier today was / is an improvement ? What about Gheb's content makes you cringe ? I'll even give you a little tidbit of info of info on Soup as my hand of friendship: I see you and soup arguing and being hardheaded with each other, and for soup it echoes of Mass Effect Mafia, for you I'm feeling better, because i think in the setting we are , given what's happening in thread right now(especially the explosion of posts), that mafia would eitehr be shadow playing ( letting the clutter mess up town), or trying to make it worse, and I don't see your and soup's battle of wills as such, and I'm labeling it as a TvT interaction in my own reads.
 

#HBC | Joker

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I read it as you reading him as town, yet still doing scummy things as a town read. Can you explain it further please? Also why were you saying "Bad townsoup!" when interacting with him if you were scumreading him?
I literally explain it in the quote you used. It looks like soup trying to trick people into townreading him. I, do not think he is town. I do, however, not have a very solid track record of reading soup accurately. Is it possible he's town? Yes. Do I think he is? No.

That last part where I call him "Bad townsoup!" is just me telling him that if he's town, he needs to shape up. It's more or less a hypothetical?
 

Shun Goku Satsu Rake

Oriwa Rake. Kaizo ko ni oriwa naru
Joined
May 8, 2012
Messages
3,897
Man, I am realizing that people expect me to be "super crazy, dive onto every land mine early game and just make people go wtf" Rake every single game lol, I am actually flattered that my reputation is starting to proceed me.
 

#HBC | Joker

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Your insistence that I'm not reading Kantrip is also dumb. I'm not poking and prodding Kantrip to get a read on him, because it's pretty obvious to me that he's town. Why do I need to make efforts to further develop a townread on somebody?

You also can't say "look, he told somebody not to shut down discussion, then he didn't tell somebody else to not shut down discussion!" and act like that's some kind of scumtell. The situation are totally different. Shoco, for example, has exactly zero chance of actually succeeding at shutting down discussion. The slot is at the bottom of the barrel in terms of activity, just barely above the people who aren't posting at all. How is that slot going to stop anyone from discussing things? Gimme a break, they're not a threat.

You, on the other hand, are ****ing Ran. You're not somebody who advocates "not talking". Seeing a slot that has Ran in it telling people to shut up and stop discussing things sets off alarm bells in all kinds of ways. Like, for real, the situations aren't even close to similar.
 

Super Fabulous

Joey|Ranmaru
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
364
Okay PJB I'll concede the 'weak soup read change' point. I still find you suspicious, I feel mafia would try to take advantage of looking townie by posting alot about mechanics and less about scumhunting. Unless you have done more recently that I have missed? Otherwise my read stands. The feeling has been there from the start.
 

Super Fabulous

Joey|Ranmaru
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
364
Your insistence that I'm not reading Kantrip is also dumb. I'm not poking and prodding Kantrip to get a read on him, because it's pretty obvious to me that he's town. Why do I need to make efforts to further develop a townread on somebody?

You, on the other hand, are ****ing Ran. You're not somebody who advocates "not talking". Seeing a slot that has Ran in it telling people to shut up and stop discussing things sets off alarm bells in all kinds of ways. Like, for real, the situations aren't even close to similar.

My point was that you were reading Kantrip for being confident and not being wishywashy, yet you let him off the hook for not substantiating reads, nor did you really care. It shows that to me, you only care to have a town read on him, but not really try to read him.

It would make sense for me to do that, actually. I do that alot in games. I try to do what I can do, (keeping town together). For example, telling Badwolf to stop being dumb, or he would continue to be a distraction. Oh wait. I have talked about this before. Another example, explaining something to stop a misunderstanding to happen, because it would derail the thread into nothing. Hmmz.
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
6,865
im gonna appeal to ranmaru later but holy **** what are you smoking
 
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