Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[Picture Perfect]

okay j ill leave have fun going on about a bunch of **** that's inherently useless and feeling good about trying to play a mafia game when it's clear this isn't really a mafia game write a ton of walls about your townreads and all that cool stuff you like doing

You literally make no sense in this post. That is all I (J) am going to say because Laundry wants to take the lead on this idiotic play from you so I'm just going to let him.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Errybody
are we doing the pseudo tourney cop approach of everyone making a guess at the end of the cycle? If so, we need to pick that choice asap.

Yes .

 

[Shocodoro Blagshidect]

Instead of ranting and discussing attitude, discuss the direction of the day and what you think should happen. Seph think we should get our Bye sorted out and end it asap. I can agree with that on grounds of preventing paranoia, but I want to see what others have to say about day direction. No, I'm not caught up. No, I won't do it tonight (probably).

 

[#HBC | Joker]

From "Activity and Gameflow" in OP

The first phase cycle in this game (Day Cycle 1) is ordered Morning > Lunch > Match > Night.

This cycle will continue at least for 6 game Days, and will continue beyond that if necessary until the point spread defines an 8-player Winner's Bracket. After the last Night phase of the cycle, Day Cycle 2 will start.

From the Tourney Cop role PM in in the OP

At the end of Cycle 1, you will make a public guess in the thread on a single player who might be MAF. If the guess is correct, that MAF member is disqualified from the tournament (and leaves the game), and you take their spot in the Bracket (based on your own point total from match play). Otherwise, you are out of the tournament, but can still post in the thread.

So I'm interpreting this as the cop making his guess at the point where we have enough seeding points to determine an 8 man bracket.

The cop won't be making his guess for awhile, it seems.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Well I don't trust Rake and wouldn't want him getting that information, and don't see why PP can't share with their hotel room.

I do see your point though, and agree that Joker is probably a good Bye recipient for the Day.

Bye: Joker

Because our hotel room has said jack **** and unless Ruy is town, it will probably continue to stay that way.

 

[Shocodoro Blagshidect]

Oh and the public cop guess is a good call too. Almost forgot to mention that.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Instead of ranting and discussing attitude, discuss the direction of the day and what you think should happen. Seph think we should get our Bye sorted out and end it asap. I can agree with that on grounds of preventing paranoia, but I want to see what others have to say about day direction. No, I'm not caught up. No, I won't do it tonight (probably).

I haven't talked about it because I'm not wholly decided on what I want to do yet. I have been out there saying what I feel needs to be done, though. Others are just actively ignoring it for reasons I really can't fathom.

 

[Shocodoro Blagshidect]

If you're not decided on a direction, why are you posting in the thread? Impulsive reactions are not gonna help us out in this game. Figure it out, you have two heads to work with. I don't need you ranting about behavior of players in thread.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

By the time the cop is going to make his guess, we'll probably know who he is, because he'll be the only one who won't be participating in matches, aside from people who have received byes.

There's not much point in trying to help mask his identity.

 

[Super Fabulous]

If you're not decided on a direction, why are you posting in the thread? Impulsive reactions are not gonna help us out in this game. Figure it out, you have two heads to work with. I don't need you ranting about behavior of players in thread.

Still re-reading, but PJB, I want you to tell me what you think of the bold. Thanks.

 

[Super Fabulous]

Regardless of how often the tourney cop does his job, our point still stands. Our goal is to beat the mafia. Taking the "let's all cheat" approach obviously won't work, because some of us obviously won't cheat. That's the bottom line of it. Some of us may have a goal that states "Don't cheat". This means that mafia can openly claim that they have this goal and put townies in the spot light for cheating against them. Relying on mechanics doesn't help nearly as much as you all think it does simply because of the fact that personal goals ruin all of the logic behind it. Yes, I get that we need to play our matches and all of that, and that we need to learn our characters, but rushing this phase just so we can get there faster (especially when we still have people that haven't gotten to contribute at all)? It's completely moronic. It's not like we lose time to play our matches if we make this phase longer. We can actually discuss things and try to help our tournament cop instead of acting like pricks and saying "Here's my reads with no reasoning whatsoever. Enjoy yourself lololol".

Also, Am I wrong when I assume that mafia CAN overpower townie cheating, but they don't HAVE to? :|. I don't get why you all assume that mafia will instantly try to win one round that way and put themselves out in the open against cheating for one round out of the whole set. We're going to have to go through these phases with actual logical process like we were doing prior to the whole "HEY WE CAN ABUSE MECHANICS TO WIN LOL" thing went through. That's just the reality of it. Stop trying to make the phase go by quicker, wait for everyone to actually post content, and then we can decide what we really want to do with this game. Throwing all of this mechanic crap now when we still have questions about how it works isn't a great plan at all.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

nothing's really changed for my reads therefore i feel no reason to substantiate further about anything nor do i feel inclined to presently pursue or do anything.

but im gonna lurk the thread still and keep up.

 

[Super Fabulous]

So many typos... So much poor grammar... Ugh. Shoot me x_x.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Still re-reading, but PJB, I want you to tell me what you think of the bold. Thanks.

I can see it as an attempt to shut down discussion. The thought crossed my mind, but it's too obvious. nobody who was actually attempting to shut down discussion would be so blatant about it.

It just comes off as Shoco being kind of frustrated, and wanting people to stfu.

 

[Super Fabulous]

Ok. How's your read progressing on Soup?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about the mechanics floating around.

 

[Picture Perfect]

what are you gonn-

lol you get the point

Actually, yes. That is what I want to do.

ATTENTION ALL YOCTOGRAMS

I've been noticing as the game continues a steady trend of players deciding that they don't want to talk about reads, they just want to put them out there. They feel this isn't a "mafia" game, and therefore don't have to play it like one. Worse yet, they feel as if they don't have to fear a lynch because they won't get removed from the game and therefore can play however the **** they want.

This is wrong.

I don't know what the **** got into your heads, but literally this is ****ing stupid. You act like this isn't mafia despite there being a ****ing mafia team present in this game trying to beat us. You expect us to beat them in ****ing matches when it's clear they have access to an advantage, however slight, that we don't. You continue to say nothing and make it a headache for other players in this thread to read your slot, making the job of the one ****ing role that can actually remove scum harder. Saying "lol he has six days" means nothing if you continue to play like an ass and make it a headache for that slot, let alone other slots, to read you, all because you feel entitled to play to individual wincons.

Let me repeat myself:

THERE IS A ****ING MAFIA FACTION IN THIS GAME. JUST BECAUSE WE HAVE INDIVIDUAL GOALS AND JUST BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE LYNCHES DOES NOT MEAN WE SHOULDN'T BE COOPERATING WITH ONE ANOTHER, HELPING EACH OTHER TO READ ONE ANOTHER OR OTHER PLAYERS, AND BEING A GENERALLY USELESS, INCOHERENT ****. WE STILL HAVE TO BEAT MAFIA BECAUSE THAT IS TOWN'S PRIMARY WINCON.

So rather than saying "lol what're you gonna do lynch me" let's actually get the petty bull**** out of here. We need to do the following in this phase right now:

1) Decide where the bye is going. This is top priority, but it also has been fairly established.
2) Decide how the **** we're beating mafia in this game, or at least talk about it. Obviously playing matches are going to help us figure this **** out, but we need to figure out exactly how we can beat mafia in matches when it's clear they do possess advantages we don't have. How much do you wanna bet
3) Decide how best we can help the cop. We can't play this game saying "oh hey this is stupid let's just talk about mechanics guys!" because we will never find scum that way. Yes, we don't have the normal methods of dealing with scum, but that does not invalidate us from talking about finding scum.

I'm going to talk more in-depth about what I think as well as some of my reads in a bit, but this horse**** scummy behavior from slots like Kantrip, soup, Rake, and even arguably Gheb is not benefiting town in the slightest and needs to ****ing stop. If Soup continues to behave like this, I would not hesitate in the slightest to use our one removal on him because he is certainly not helping town at all with his play.

 

[Shocodoro Blagshidect]

It's not frustration. I am actually shutting down discussion. I am shutting down discussion that I deem useless, to make way for discussion that I deem worthy. I would love to know what they think regarding this day's direction.

Bye: PJB
Seems like the best target to Bye today.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Ok. How's your read progressing on Soup?

Soup seems like he has given up on trying to get people to townread him, and honestly, I think that's a bit of an act to make us think he doesn't care about his appearance, therefore is town. Still pretty scummy, to me.

If he is town, he's not being very productive, and he's content with that. Bad townsoup!

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Like, I'm gonna go so far to even create a constructive post about this. We shouldn't be playing this like a fundamental Mafia game. This isn't a Mafia game. Don't lie to yourself and say it is because the only thing that is mafia-like is that Nabe included a faction that is against the majority. However, if you think I'm going to buy that you really don't care about yourself and you want to move further in the game than your other counterparts then you don't understand how regular tournaments go. This is a competition. This is not a competition between one faction and the other, no, it's a competition against everyone else. I'm going to play this game like I am and I'm going to laugh at J and anyone else who calls me a ****** because they're wasting their breath. This isn't about me not caring about the welfare of the town, it's just that my priorities are rather more set on the match aspect. This talk about mechanics is much more productive and insightful then reading a wall about someone you town-read, because what are you gonna with that read? All you have is your word, and yes that helps the Tourney Cop but jesus christ you guys are focusing too much on one individual who I think can make calculated decisions on his own without us literally spoonfeeding him. I'm not saying to not ****ing do anything. Yes, I want to find MAF too. Yes, you can find MAF by scumhunting, but even if you think you have MAF all you can advocate is that they don't get a Bye, or that you want them to lose. You can't determine what's going to happen to a scum because you cannot remove a player on your own. I really don't care about how much you disagree with me because you don't decide what happens to me and I see no reason to appeal to you. There is one lynch and I doubt it will be used any time soon.

 

[Super Fabulous]

It's not frustration. I am actually shutting down discussion. I am shutting down discussion that I deem useless, to make way for discussion that I deem worthy. I would love to know what they think regarding this day's direction.

Bye: PJB
Seems like the best target to Bye today.

We are actually going to wait for you and others to catch up first. Ryker hasn't even gotten into the game. Hold your horses baby. I also want you to follow up with your initial posts.

 

[Super Fabulous]

Soup seems like he has given up on trying to get people to townread him, and honestly, I think that's a bit of an act to make us think he doesn't care about his appearance, therefore is town. Still pretty scummy, to me.

If he is town, he's not being very productive, and he's content with that. Bad townsoup!

Isn't that null though?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

PP, help town in your way. I'll help town in my own way.

 

[Shocodoro Blagshidect]

My horses are advancing at precisely the pace I desire. Worry about other matters before me. I'll catch up tomorrow, aye?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I recall seeing something in the rules about us voting people for suspicion. Not sure if that's just referring to the tourney cop, but it was kind of worded in a way that made me think we were supposed to be voting on it as an actual gameplay mechanic. Lemme see if I can dig that out.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Here is what I want to do:

Bye: Joker

I would like to give it to WATT, but he has requested not to have it, so Joker is next on my list to receive the bye.

Right now, we need to find a way to beat scum in matches. If we're on point with our removal and the tourney cop's investigate, we will still have two scum left in the game come cycle 2 and that's incredibly problematic. We can't just win this game through this. We also need to figure out how to avoid being poisoned (no one's discussed this yet but I'm not sure this is something we should publicly discuss, though I want to mention it to confirm if it shouldn't). There is a lot to figure out still, because there's a lot left to play. So, no, Ramses, I don't know what the **** I exactly want to do, but unlike you, that's why I'm here reading and talking with people to figure out what needs to be done. Saying "I need to have everything planned" is not true in the slightest, so **** outta here with that logic, because you could already tell that to players like Rake as well.

But we also cannot, at any point, stop reading people. Our reads will be dynamic over the course of the game, but we have to live with that fact. We can't lynch scum. Deal with it. That does not change the fact that we still need to be reading people and hunting scum, nor does that give us the excuse to stop allowing ourselves to be read.

This is a weird game. We can't play it solely as mafia, no, but we can't also abandon all parts of mafia because it doesn't play the same way. We still have to read players. I will not stop stressing this until it is wholly accepted.

This behavior seriously has to ****ing stop.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

1) Decide where the bye is going. This is top priority, but it also has been fairly established.
2) Decide how the **** we're beating mafia in this game, or at least talk about it. Obviously playing matches are going to help us figure this **** out, but we need to figure out exactly how we can beat mafia in matches when it's clear they do possess advantages we don't have. How much do you wanna bet
3) Decide how best we can help the cop. We can't play this game saying "oh hey this is stupid let's just talk about mechanics guys!" because we will never find scum that way. Yes, we don't have the normal methods of dealing with scum, but that does not invalidate us from talking about finding scum.

1) I don't disagree. This is what I want more than anything.
2) This will come much more relevant once matches are played. I will tell you for certain that if I learn something or I think something can help town then I won't hesitate to say it.
3) But who is to say that eliminating scum by a means mechanics use isn't as viable as just talking about it?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

PP, I never disagreed to completely abandoning it as a mafia game, and not reading players. I'm just not going to be putting the effort as I would before and I want to approach it differently. I don't think mechanics should be all we talk about, but I really want to get to matches. I feel like things will be a lot more clearer, and it's not like you can't scumhunt from what happens from it. I want to go in detail about it but I can't even list ways right now.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I had a suggestion in our room about everyone publicly outing where they were going for lunch phases at the end of morning to snuff out MAF. It's a pretty simple idea because MAF isn't going to go a place they poison. I never really got anything out of it from either of my roommates, but I figure now would be best to out it.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Wtf soup. No, bad soup! This is not all about "I'mma be an all-star and win the tourney solo. **** factions."

I'm going to try and win as many of my matches as I can, but ya know what? If I lose every single one of them, that's probably ok. The main goal is that we want a townie to win, not a mafioso. So we need to work together here. A big part of working together is figuring out who is on what team. So yes, reading people is very important. I certainly don't plan on winning this thing solo, but I'm gonna do as much as I can to make sure my fellow townies do better than the mafia.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

That's not what I'm saying at all, but I can understand your concern.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I don't think there's much we can do to avoid getting poisoned. Mafia poisoning restaurants is essentially the closest thing they have to a NK, and there's not much control we have over it.

The best thing we can do, in that case, is actually try and spread our townies out as much as possible, so an entire hotelroom full of townies doesn't all hit up a poisoned restaurant at once. If we also make a conscious effort to keep our scumreads equally spread out, we can also ensure that if a group does hit a poisoned restaurant, at least one of them will probably be mafia.

 

[Super Fabulous]

My horses are advancing at precisely the pace I desire. Worry about other matters before me. I'll catch up tomorrow, aye?

I also hate you because I just copied this over the text I had copied from my catch up (went into gigabots again). I really hate this system of quote posting. Gonna do it again.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Like, I'm gonna go so far to even create a constructive post about this. We shouldn't be playing this like a fundamental Mafia game. This isn't a Mafia game. Don't lie to yourself and say it is because the only thing that is mafia-like is that Nabe included a faction that is against the majority.

Are you ********? The inclusion of a minority faction is entirely why we still have to play as town, regardless of how this game ****ing plays.

However, if you think I'm going to buy that you really don't care about yourself and you want to move further in the game than your other counterparts then you don't understand how regular tournaments go. This is a competition. This is not a competition between one faction and the other, no, it's a competition against everyone else.

Judging by my personal wincons, I have just one that may conflict with the goals of other townies and all it says is to do your best in the tournament. My primary wincon is to beat mafia. I am going to beat mafia. I am not going to beat mafia with stupid asstwats like you not allowing yourself to be read.

I'm going to play this game like I am and I'm going to laugh at J and anyone else who calls me a ****** because they're wasting their breath. This isn't about me not caring about the welfare of the town, it's just that my priorities are rather more set on the match aspect. This talk about mechanics is much more productive and insightful then reading a wall about someone you town-read, because what are you gonna with that read? All you have is your word, and yes that helps the Tourney Cop but jesus christ you guys are focusing too much on one individual who I think can make calculated decisions on his own without us literally spoonfeeding him.

THe problem with the game devolving into mechanics talk is that it makes the job for the cop harder. I swear to gog this is mafia basics, Soup. When everyone just talks about mechanics, it's null reads. It's why we ***** about people playing armchair critic in regular games--they're not doing anything, they're just sitting in nulls because they want to talk theory instead of reading or being read. How do you read someone like that? Expecting the tourney cop to do that makes his job so much harder. The more information we can present to him, the better. The fact that you want to limit his information is detrimental, no matter how concerned you are on matches.

I'm not saying to not ****ing do anything.

No, you're saying "let's make it as insanely hard to read people as possible because we can't lynch them."

Yes, I want to find MAF too. Yes, you can find MAF by scumhunting, but even if you think you have MAF all you can advocate is that they don't get a Bye, or that you want them to lose. You can't determine what's going to happen to a scum because you cannot remove a player on your own. I really don't care about how much you disagree with me because you don't decide what happens to me and I see no reason to appeal to you. There is one lynch and I doubt it will be used any time soon.

That's not the point. You keep advocating to keep information hidden and private, no matter what it is, for fear mafia will find it. You tell townies that it's pointless to scumhunt because we can't lynch people. You say "let's put information in a spot where it's not public." THAT IS NOT HELPING TOWN. I can't believe that you, who have played so much ****ing mafia, are failing to grasp this, Soup. This isn't rocket science. Town wins through information, regardless of scum having it or not. Massclaims are inherently broken for town for this specific reason, despite protectives and investigatives telling scum "HERE I AM SHOOT ME". The fact that all of you keep saying "let's just limit information, no worries, the tourney cop's got this" is incredibly frustrating as it is stupid and unhelpful. Please stop.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Washed, me and you are talking right now. You damn well are trying to read me in your ****ing way and you can't tell me that this isn't scumhunting right now. Mafia is about discussion and discussion isn't just gonna come a ****ing halt because I'm playing **** differently. I'M NOT GONNA JUST STOP READING PEOPLE. THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEAN. I'M GONNA BE READING PEOPLE AND I'M GOING TO BE MAKING CALCULATED DECISIONS LIKE ANYONE ELSE. I WON'T JUST TALK OUT MY ASS AND BYE SOMEONE BECAUSE HURR DURR I WANT MATCHES TO START. NO. IM GIVING PJB A BYE BECAUSE I TRUST HIM AS TOWN AND I THINK IT WOULD BE BENEFICIAL.

 

[Super Fabulous]

MFW I realized that was a cow suit, not a horse suit.

 

[Picture Perfect]

For what it's worth, here's what I think:

Rake is scum. He's by far the most convinced I am of being scum in the game. He continually refuses to help and then ******* about people not understanding him and that stupid fallacious argument he made about scum not putting themselves into the position he is in is ******** and shouldn't be bought by anyone.

Soup, while antagonizing and obnoxious, seems town at this point. He does have town's goals in mind, but he's ******** and forgets he's a townie first before having individual goals. The fact that he's willing to level with me on what to do shows town intent, even if he's being assholeish about it. In the same breath, I think Kantrip is probably town as well but I trust him less for his recent behavior.

WATT and PJB are so incredibly obvious town everyone should have them on their town list.

I think Pawn is town given how he entered the game but I'm not certain. The things he said while coming in just gave off the intention of a blind willingness to help his alignment and unless scum told him to do that, I don't see how he could be scum.

Ryker continually stalling to join the game has me believing he's scum. He probably crumbed it with that whole post about disagreeing with what Soup posted in the QT but that'd be silly to actually believe. Regardless, this is still typical of his scum meta and I refuse to trust him when he finally decides to join the game, though I await his reasoning for not being here. I have two guesses.

I don't know what to make of Xonar or Gheb yet. Ruy and Koops have posted too little.

Super Fab plays to the town meta of both heads, even if they're incredibly indecisive, but it's fairly obvious Ran started playing without listening to Joey and they had no conversations about their reads. Thus, when Joey entered with contradictory reads to what Ran had been doing, it obviously caused some weird schism in the hydra's views.

Gog leave me alone now, I'm too ****ing angry. Time to go play league for three hours.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

THe problem with the game devolving into mechanics talk is that it makes the job for the cop harder. I swear to gog this is mafia basics, Soup. When everyone just talks about mechanics, it's null reads. It's why we ***** about people playing armchair critic in regular games--they're not doing anything, they're just sitting in nulls because they want to talk theory instead of reading or being read. How do you read someone like that? Expecting the tourney cop to do that makes his job so much harder. The more information we can present to him, the better. The fact that you want to limit his information is detrimental, no matter how concerned you are on matches.

Can you truly say that you cannot read someone about how they're talking about mechanics, or how they are using them? I certainly can. It's not like I'm going to just let something get past me if I disagree with it or I think there is malicious intent behind it. I think MAF has every reason to still look townie, so no I'm not saying there is no reason to not try and If I wasn't trying then I could just blow you off about this and not even respond at all. But I am, and I'm trying. Because I want town to win too.

That's not the point. You keep advocating to keep information hidden and private, no matter what it is, for fear mafia will find it. You tell townies that it's pointless to scumhunt because we can't lynch people. You say "let's put information in a spot where it's not public." THAT IS NOT HELPING TOWN. I can't believe that you, who have played so much ****ing mafia, are failing to grasp this, Soup. This isn't rocket science. Town wins through information, regardless of scum having it or not. Massclaims are inherently broken for town for this specific reason, despite protectives and investigatives telling scum "HERE I AM SHOOT ME". The fact that all of you keep saying "let's just limit information, no worries, the tourney cop's got this" is incredibly frustrating as it is stupid and unhelpful. Please stop.

Information and discussion well flow regardless in what direction or what perspective. Mafia is but another form of debate.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Washed, me and you are talking right now. You damn well are trying to read me in your ****ing way and you can't tell me that this isn't scumhunting right now. Mafia is about discussion and discussion isn't just gonna come a ****ing halt because I'm playing **** differently. I'M NOT GONNA JUST STOP READING PEOPLE. THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEAN. I'M GONNA BE READING PEOPLE AND I'M GOING TO BE MAKING CALCULATED DECISIONS LIKE ANYONE ELSE. I WON'T JUST TALK OUT MY *** AND BYE SOMEONE BECAUSE HURR DURR I WANT MATCHES TO START. NO. IM GIVING PJB A BYE BECAUSE I TRUST HIM AS TOWN AND I THINK IT WOULD BE BENEFICIAL.

Then tell me why. That's why that entire rant started. It's because you and Kantrip both decided "**** it let's just not explain anything in terms of reading people" and that's incredibly scummy play. I'm not saying give me a gogdamn encyclopedia on a guy's towniness, just at least explain where the read came from and why it changed. For all you know, sound logic could actually influence my reads.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Then tell me why. That's why that entire rant started. It's because you and Kantrip both decided "**** it let's just not explain anything in terms of reading people" and that's incredibly scummy play. I'm not saying give me a gogdamn encyclopedia on a guy's towniness, just at least explain where the read came from and why it changed. For all you know, sound logic could actually influence my reads.

Are you talking about Kantplay? It really was more so of a sympathy pass and the fact I was becoming apathetic towards the whole situation. It also doesn't help that I'm kinda tired. Either way, I don't town-read him fully yet, and I actually still lean on the possibility of him being scum, as him being lazy doesn't justify not saying anything at all. He's been putting off that Rake read like he really doesn't have anything to say, but it's weird because he seemed so confident about it. It amkes me believe that he did not actually have confidence and that my original lead on him (I'll go fetch it if you need me to) is actually correct.

If this is about Rake, then let me get to that.