Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[Wots All This Then?]

Here is what I want to do:

Bye: Joker

I would like to give it to WATT, but he has requested not to have it, so Joker is next on my list to receive the bye.

Right now, we need to find a way to beat scum in matches. If we're on point with our removal and the tourney cop's investigate, we will still have two scum left in the game come cycle 2 and that's incredibly problematic. We can't just win this game through this. We also need to figure out how to avoid being poisoned (no one's discussed this yet but I'm not sure this is something we should publicly discuss, though I want to mention it to confirm if it shouldn't). There is a lot to figure out still, because there's a lot left to play. So, no, Ramses, I don't know what the **** I exactly want to do, but unlike you, that's why I'm here reading and talking with people to figure out what needs to be done. Saying "I need to have everything planned" is not true in the slightest, so **** outta here with that logic, because you could already tell that to players like Rake as well.

TBH, I'm not sure we can avoid being poisoned. Saying out loud where we plan to go is something that just tells mafia where we are going to be. Now the fact that mafia can't communicate privately means the poisoner has to crumb it in thread in order for his mates to avoid being poisoned. I;m also pretty sure thet hotel rooms travel together for lunch, so that does suck but is something we'll have to work around.

I had a suggestion in our room about everyone publicly outing where they were going for lunch phases at the end of morning to snuff out MAF. It's a pretty simple idea because MAF isn't going to go a place they poison. I never really got anything out of it from either of my roommates, but I figure now would be best to out it.

Except for whta I just mentioned. Only one mafiat(maYBE TWO AT MOST) knows what is gonna happen with that poison.

I don't think there's much we can do to avoid getting poisoned. Mafia poisoning restaurants is essentially the closest thing they have to a NK, and there's not much control we have over it.

The best thing we can do, in that case, is actually try and spread our townies out as much as possible, so an entire hotelroom full of townies doesn't all hit up a poisoned restaurant at once. If we also make a conscious effort to keep our scumreads equally spread out, we can also ensure that if a group does hit a poisoned restaurant, at least one of them will probably be mafia.

So we're gonna force people to choose lunch places? I don't know that we can enforce this except by spreading our obvtownies throughout the hotel rooms, but that damns up our information flow to a degree.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

So i'm scummy for taking my time and wanting to be right ?

I actually am doing something, if you like, I will quote every single one of my posts, and lay out my exact intention with each and every one of them and tell you what I was hoping to achieve, in such excruciating detail, it would make a EE wall cringe.

Do it.

Okay PJB I'll concede the 'weak soup read change' point. I still find you suspicious, I feel mafia would try to take advantage of looking townie by posting alot about mechanics and less about scumhunting. Unless you have done more recently that I have missed? Otherwise my read stands. The feeling has been there from the start.

Have you been reading this game at all? I mean holy ****. If me/PP/Joker aren't the biggest obvtown reads ever then idekwtf

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Unbye:Joker
I saw gheb throw one on and I'd rather it not be hammer if possible.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Requesting the mod prod the **** out of Ryker and the other inactives asses. This should be an easy thing for you Nabe.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Anyone up for just using Removal on Ryker if he hasn't posted good content by the mid of tomorrow's morning phase?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Giant ass post about tearing mechanics apart from the OP incoming because we're still flailing like ducks in a pond of acid.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Also I just saw ryker's V/la declaration form page one so he should get ingame today.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

And now 17 pages. Time to play catch-up.

 

[pawndidater2]

>Finally realize thread is up.
>9 pages.
>Read 7 1/2 and fall asleep
>Thread is now doubled in size.
Slow the **** down.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Bye: PJB

I'll help but seriously, this game really is "what" for me. Also, as for desperate win goals, can we achieve those instead of winning with the town? Or do we need to win with the town as well?

This is so... interesting.

I'm going to be honest the only reason I'm even putting any effort into reads at all is so people will see how townie I am and help a brotha out

why do i not like this post

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Morning: Players will Vote during this phase on who will receive a bye for the Match round. (If for whatever reason there is an even number of players, two byes will be voted on simultaneously.) Players may also publicly Request to change their hotel room. Requests will be processed at the end of the Morning phase, in the order they were made, and will go into effect for Night phase. (This will be done semi-inclusively, so that players will get into their requested room if there is ever a free spot, but if there is a conflict, the first player who Requested will get in.) Any player who successfully changes hotel rooms via Request will be eating solo for Lunch phase. Morning phases will generally last 7 days, OR until activity is seen to be coming to a close.

Morning is the equivalent of our standard day phase in a normal mafia game. We need to use this phase to the best of our ability. It's our best time for public discussion and information sharing. That means that anyone who wants to cut this phase length short is an idiot and also likely scum.
We've already discussed byes in length, so i'll leave that be.

Lunch: All players may talk within their hotel room groups ONLY. (Players who are solo for this phase are not allowed to talk to other players.) Many sponsor restaurants have food carts at the venue. Each day, one restaurant will have had their food poisoned by MAF, and will make any players who visit it sick for the rest of the Day. Poisoned restaurants are removed from the venue on subsequent Days. Each group's (or solo player's) choice of restaurant will be made privately in the group, either by vote (or by telling me in the case of a solo player), or by my own jurisdiction on group intent / random selection if time is short.

This is the first place Mafia can **** with us. Poisoned Restaraunts can be used to trace where the Poisoner was not. Thus, we will be claiming where we had lunch both in the night and morning phases. If we can eliminate the poisoner by the third day phase, that greatly increases our ability to gather information during the match phases. this requires us to use removal correctly, but hey. That's what it's there for.

Match: After lunch, the players each play a match, through PMs with me. Scoring is best two of three rounds. The winner of a match gets 3 points. The loser of a match gets 1. Any player with a bye, if there is one during this phase, gets 2 points. Players who are sick with food poisoning from Lunch forfeit their match for the Day, and get no points, unless they have a bye. Players may talk in the thread during this phase, but matches are only played in private. The bye contacts me privately to Spectate any one match of their choice, meaning they'll learn some otherwise private details of the match.

Standard stuff here. Nothing too confusing/out of the ordinary imo.

Night: All players may talk within their hotel room groups ONLY. (This includes MAF members.) Any roles with Night choices will make them at this time. If they so choose, a player may play exactly one match (best 2/3) with another player in their room at this time, using any character of their choice, which I will facilitate to the best of my ability. (It is highly recommended to partake in this, to gain insight on the character roster and character interactions.) Groups with odd numbers of members must vote or otherwise agree in their group on which player will not take part in the match(es).

We can get an extra match in at night phase and we should by all means take advantage of them. Use different characters in the matches so as to get as wide a spectrum of moveset data as possible going into the tournament. This wiull vastly increase our chances of selecting good characters to use in Day cycle 2.

This cycle will continue at least for 6 game Days, and will continue beyond that if necessary until the point spread defines an 8-player Winner's Bracket. After the last Night phase of the cycle, Day Cycle 2 will start.
Days that are Cycle 2 are ordered Morning > Match > Night. Morning phases are the same length, but no voting takes place for a bye. Instead, votes are made to place one (or more) players under Suspicion for the subsequent Match Phase, which gives their Match opponent for the Day a guaranteed colour buff (see How Matches Work). Night phases are as they were in Cycle 1. Match phases consist of whatever matches are scheduled in the bracket for that day. Scoring is best 3 of 5 rounds. Players may talk in the thread during Morning and Match phases. (See Special Notes for details on the brackets.)

Suspicion is something we can use to give our high town reads a bonus going through our matches. We should obviously be giving this to the players who we think are town and have the best chances to make a long run through the tournament.

Each colour beats the four colours counter-clockwise from it on the wheel, and is beaten by the four colours clockwise from it.

This statement is the most fundamentally important in the game.

We want to select characters who give us the best chance to win. Thus, your main and counterpick should not have the same colour spectrum in terms of moves.
Other Special Notes:

On Removal: During any Morning Phase in Cycle 1, players may vote to Remove one player from the game permanently. This is done by simple majority, like a Lynch in traditional Mafia games. Votes towards Removal must be specified as such, or they will be counted as the regular Morning Phase votes (Bye/Suspicion) for that Cycle. Removal can only be used once in the whole game. Removal does not have to be used, and should be used carefully if at all, since the loss of even one Town or MAF member can shift the tides dramatically.

This is our one shot lynch. Ideally, we should use it on who we think is the poisoner imo. up for suggestions on this point though.

On the hotel room mechanic: The game will start with a Day 0, where players will privately message me with their top three preferred roommates from the player list. All room preferences will be weighed, and conflicts will be resolved by random selection. When rooms have been assigned, players will be given Night 0 (48 hours) to talk privately within their assigned hotel room groups. They may then talk in those groups ONLY during subsequent Lunch or Night phases. This includes members of MAF unless otherwise stated in their role!

The big thing here is that Mafia, aside from the man with the phone, has no private communication with each other. This balances out a huge portion of their abilities as they have the chance to hit other mafia members as well as townspeople.

On individual goals: Each player has an individual goal that may or may not be purely in their own interest. These are only goals to strive for, to potentially make a win more exceptional. There might also be an... associated prize?! (At my own judgment only, no promises.) Players are encouraged to go for their goals only when it does not conflict with their factional win condition, but still to go for those goals as if they were their own. Achieving the goals in full is not as important as trying to.

Read the bolded people. (soup/Kantrip etc)

On brackets: Assuming there are still 13 players (there should be without modkills or Removal) at the end of Cycle 1, there will be an 8-player Winner's Bracket and 4-player Loser's Bracket. (The 13th player who is out of the fighting will be either the Tourney Cop, or a member of MAF.) As the brackets progress, players will filter down into successive rounds of the Loser's Bracket. Eventually, the final match will take place between the winners of the two brackets. The Loser's Bracket will last more matches than the Winner's Bracket, and losing in the Loser's Bracket means elimination from the tournament and from the game, so it's beneficial to win, win, win!

THE TOURNEY COP MIGHT NOT BE THE ONE WHO IS NOT IN THE TOURNAMENT.

• Mod-Can you clarify on the conditions that decide who becomes the odd man out of the tournament and how that affects factional win conditions?

On Cheating: All players can Cheat (except for the Tourney Cop). Doing so is as easy as telling me you're Cheating at the start of a round in a match. If a player Cheats, and their opponent does not Cheat, the Cheating player automatically wins the round, and both players will be shown an "outcome" that represents an ordinary "win". If both players Cheat, the round proceeds to an outcome by normal resolution. There is an additional method of Cheating available only to Team MAF -- using banned moves. This trumps normal Cheating, and again, both players will see an "outcome" reflecting an ordinary round. Banned moves may only be used in one round per match. Many characters do not have banned moves.

Cheating is not a bad thing. Cheating should be used in the right conditions. Cheating should not be used if your opponent is super mega obv townie or the tourney cop.(once the tourney begins)
Set-Up:

Of MAF's four members: each one interferes with the standard play of one of the four phases of Day Cycle 1. They cannot communicate privately without being in a hotel room with each other, except for one member with a trick up his sleeve... or rather, a phone in his pocket, and he's keeping an eye out for the Tourney Cop, too. One shadowy member has an intimate knowledge of the inner workings of Koopa VS Kefka characters, and no non-disclosure agreement is going to stop him from exploiting it. Or, will he take even harsher steps? Another is eager to make money, even at the expense of other hard-working restauranteurs, and other players' personal health. And yet one more is a top tournament player of another franchise, who thinks fresh blood in the fighting game market is a death knell for his ailing community, and isn't afraid to demonstrate how unbalanced this character roster really is. If you're town, don't let these scoundrels win!

• We know what mafia has as a result of this post. They have a man with a phone who can communicate with other players, but that this can be tagged by the tourney cops investigations(implied by nabes wording of the maf looking out for the tourney cop.
• There is a mafiat poisoning the lunch rooms. It's implied is he one of the restaurant owners. This entails that one of the restaurants cannot be poisoned.
• There is a mafiat with extra knowledge of movesets/characters.
• There's a mafiat out to kill this tourney (goon?)

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Bye: PJB

I'll help but seriously, this game really is "what" for me. Also, as for desperate win goals, can we achieve those instead of winning with the town? Or do we need to win with the town as well?

This is so... interesting.



why do i not like this post

NO NO NO NO NO. Did I not just say I don't want a goddamn bye decided yet? This phase is finally going places and people decide to stop it by not reading up.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

NO NO NO NO NO. Did I not just say I don't want a goddamn bye decided yet? This phase is finally going places and people decide to stop it by not reading up.

Ah, I just read up and saw people doing it. Can I still unvote or does it have a lock number?

If so Unby/vote: PJB

If it's locked from my vote, I'll take the blame.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Bye: PJB

I'll help but seriously, this game really is "what" for me. Also, as for desperate win goals, can we achieve those instead of winning with the town? Or do we need to win with the town as well?

This is so... interesting.



why do i not like this post

Also those other wincons are personal goals which are superseded by the primary factional wincon.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Ah, I just read up and saw people doing it. Can I still unvote or does it have a lock number?

If so Unby/vote: PJB

If it's locked from my vote, I'll take the blame.

I unvoted too because I'm afraid that Gheb hammered it. Hopefully we caught a break though.
Mod-Can we majority vote to extend any particular phase length?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Also those other wincons are personal goals which are superseded by the primary factional wincon.

Can you explain this in further detail without it getting compelx?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

You have personal goals which your character wishes to achieve. These goals are like optional side quests in video games-It's cool if you complete them, and you should try to, but it's not as important as finishing the main storyline(IE-town beating mafia)

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Hmm. Word choice Koopa ,word choice

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Pawn better have some reads for us when you're done reading.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Hmm. Word choice Koopa ,word choice

I know my wording is terrible. This is my first time in a while playing in something as experimental as this. :/

Does completing these sidequests benefit us? Clearly if they do, we should be intend on completing them.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

It's something that might get you a prize but that's not necessarily game specific? It's not clarified in the ruleset except that you should work for them while attempting to get the primary wincon completed

 

[Wots All This Then?]

wanna chime anything in joey?

 

[Super Fabulous]

Your post is perfect.

That is all .

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Mkay. I'll assume you mean 651 or whatever me huge post number is.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

In like 15 minutes I need to go help my uncle paint the new siding so someone else needs to produce content until PP gets here.
Also people should comment on 651 and anything I failed to address/think I've got wrong should be pointed out.

 

[Picture Perfect]

GS mafia.

I didn't even finish D1 so you may as well stop citing that game.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

651 when you've got the time PP

 

[Picture Perfect]

Just noticed this in-depth: Why do you think his defensiveness was more telling than his actions later on in thread ? WRT the end of your paragraph, was this meant to imply kantrip/Soup scum, or was it meat to imply that Kantrip's soupscum read(which i don't believe he went too in depth into) shook soup ? Why do you feel like Soup as scum would react defensively at the first go ?

My read further developed beyond this point. At the time I failed to see townie intent in his actions based on what I described, but as the game progressed, I saw typical signs of a frustrated townie and his recent interaction with me has me feeling a lot better about the slot. It just took a few flipped tables and letting me handle him instead of J.

The latter.

I've seen games in the past where Soup gets hella defensive. Ryker maf in particular, I ended up lynching both he and Xonar D2 and D1 because they both got defensive and played mad scummy early. There are other examples but they aren't coming to mind.

 

[Picture Perfect]

How so ?
10 follow ups

Sounded like a kid reaching out for help and frustrated at his position. I couldn't see scum reacting in that way at all.

 

[Picture Perfect]

What about Super fab's PJB read makes it disregard-able or rather why do you believe your stance on PJB wrt his actions is more correct than Super Fab's ?

The fact that he has PJB as scum, let alone the most scummy slot in the game. I don't even care for his reasoning at all, that slot ain't scum.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Anyone up for just using Removal on Ryker if he hasn't posted good content by the mid of tomorrow's morning phase?

Worth it imo

 

[Wots All This Then?]

bugging out now. Might be back later.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Eh, I agree with pretty much everything WATT has posted on this page.

I'm starting to wonder whether it's a good idea to make sure a certain player gets a "free" win in bracket by having him cheat whomever he plays against. Obviously, the other player must not cheat and the cop must investigate somebody else. If we couple that with free byes for cleared players we can maximizr chances for townies to reach the finals. Assuming there is no flaw in this approach, scum would HAVE to try appearing as town as they can no longer win the game by using the game's mechanics as an excuse to not do much. The sooner we optimize a coordinated approach, the sooner we can force mafia to take initiative, potentially making this game a bit more like a "traditional" mafia game than it is now.

Time to respond to older stuff now.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb_01 Nullscum. He isn't doing anything and won't because of the setup being 'mechanical'. His approach to his play won't help me to read him and it's the same as Rake's approach, but for a different reason.

At the risk of sounding biased here, I think you can definitely draw reads from somebody's talk on mechanics. Not that I think one's play should be restricted to it but you can definitely tell when somebody tries to use mechanics in a fashion that increases the chances for us to win. I mean, we probably *can* find the scumbags by trying to read them but why would we do that if we can use the game's mechanics to our advantage so much that we might get an advantage that MAF simply is unable to overcome? Wouldn't that be much more effective and reliable? That's why I think it's legit possible that somebody is trying his hardest to win this game for town even though he doesn't actively "hunt scum" at this point of the game.

I'd definitely say that it applies to me as well. I've made various suggestions on how we could boost our chances to win without having to read every player accurately. Not only could it easily help us a lot more than traditional scumhuntin but it can even help us with inactive slots as we don't have to read them in the first place to win the game. You should reconsider that read.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm going to reassert my believe that PJB and Fab are town and am adding WATT to this list as well. WATT's input has been to purposeful to make him a play for one of the coming phases / cycles. As for the other two slots, I can only echo what other people have already said about them, especially PJB. His play as town is just so clearly defined and familiar that one can just tell he's being his town-self. The same holds true for the two heads of Fab.

While PP has a point that not all scumbags are inactive I wouldn't be surprised if 2 of them are. In fact, I don't see what's exactly unlikely about it and this is where I'm finding myself having issues with PP's "rant" post. Because the people he mentioned as possibly scummy for neglecting scumhunt in favor of investigating the mechanics are exactly the people who have tried to make input despite having difficulties to hunt scum in a traditional sense. I find that iffy. Why would he discourage that kind of approach without even knowing whether it's worse in the first place? I would actually claim quite the opposite and find it unsettling that his rant has gotten so much positive feedback when it's largely an attempt to discourage people who have been trying to get things done.
Personally, I would prefer the tourney cop to take a look at that slot at the end of cycle 1 to see whether he's MAF or not - if not, we have a useful clear to hand out a bye to. Seems like win-win to me. I would also like to see the cop reviewing soup's bracket matches during the match phase to prevent him from cheating. Though not as problematic a slot as PP he has done poorly enough overall that he can go asap, especially if he's matched up with PJB, Fab or WATT in the bracket.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yet another thing that I think is worth thinking about is to have people change room depending on the overall opinion on their play. For example, we could have 1 room with PJB, WATT, myself and maybe fab for the generally pro-town slots to decrease chances that scum can observe our matches. If we are spot-on with our reads we can isolate scumbags into different rooms and cut down some of the info they would probably like to gain from us.

How does everybody else feel about this idea?

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Status 1-3

Bye: PJB

Bye Votecount
PJB (

): Soup, PJB, Wots, Pota, Choco, Pixp, Gheb
Ryu (

): Ryu
Pixp (

): Fabio

Request Queue
Pota > Room 2
PJB > Room 1


With the majority of votes on PrivateJoker-Brown, he has received the Bye for Match 1. Bye voting is over for the Morning.

Day 1 Morning will end in 24 hours from this post.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

MATCH PHASE 1​

(Following Lunch)​

​

Koops VS Pixp​

Ryker VS Soup​

Pawn VS Pota​

Fabio VS Ryu​

Rake VS Gheb​

Wots VS Choco​

 

[pawndidater2]

FINALLY. I'm here. First things first:

Suspicion is something we can use to give our high town reads a bonus going through our matches. We should obviously be giving this to the players who we think are town and have the best chances to make a long run through the tournament.

That's wrong. Suspicion gives a disadvantage. We want to be using them on scummy players.

Rake asked me a question or two a while back, let me go find those.

 

[pawndidater2]

Oh look at that ninja.