Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[JayBee]

I'll do my best to come. I just need a ride. Maybe Shinku will help out again?

 

[R4ZE]

thats pretty impressive, finding ways to fight well against g&w, i give mad props. i hope to acheive that soon =)

 

[darkNES386]

I just like to throw random questions suggestions into this thread so yeah...

There are times when I'll find myself wanting to make small spacing adjustments. Usually this results in a small foxtrot which can sometimes be bad if your opponent is on top of you. Does anyone already or would they consider using a spindash shield cancel to correct this problem? You can foxtrot away from your opponent and instantly follow it up with a spin-dash TOWARDS your opponent > shield cancel. This would result in a scooting away or towards (though usually not as helpful for spacing).

Perhaps this isn't that helpful. To my knowledge Sonic is the only character that can do this. Maybe the time spent interrupting the foxtrot with a spin-dash>shield cancel = the time for the foxtrot to regularly end. Thoughts? Give it a shot.

 

[Tenki]

Are you talking about using side-B to shield out of foxtrots, or using B-reversals to cancel retreating foxtrots for better spacing?

In the last recorded match against Rowan's Peach, I do a bunch of retreat>B-reversals to catch him during his approach.

I'll list some times, if you wanna kinda see it in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQTtNHD6kso

00:23 (wtf? 5 seconds into the round lol)
00:42
2:55-3:08 (some foxtrot usage, should have side-B cancelled or F-smashed out of foxtrot `.`; )
4:00- around 4:10 (side-B cancel galore? not too sure how related that is)
4:30 (B-reversal, but it missed due to his reflexive roll upon landing)
5:19 (more side-B cancelling?)

Foxtrots are SOOO underused in Brawl, but it's so useful when you don't trip (LOL). IMO Sonic has one of the most versatile foxtrots since he can actually shield and 'pivot' out of it relatively easier than most characters, who have to resort to a dashdance pivot or phanna's 'true pivot' technique.

1:06 in C.Mob(Link) vs Tenki(Sonic) 3, I do a forward foxtrot (spotdodge bait) > charged F-smash

I'm not sure if it was recorded, but in one of my matches against C.Mob, I do a foxtrot forward > B-reversal charge (for a second or so) then roll towards him. It's something that I sometimes do by accident, but it seems to be somewhat effective if not overused, since your opponent (and at times, myself) expect Sonic to move in the direction he's facing when he's charging the side-B.

 

[darkNES386]

Alright, thanks Tenki. I'm going to try incorporating it more.

 

[JayBee]

responce+New Discovery

I just like to throw random questions suggestions into this thread so yeah...

There are times when I'll find myself wanting to make small spacing adjustments. Usually this results in a small foxtrot which can sometimes be bad if your opponent is on top of you. Does anyone already or would they consider using a spindash shield cancel to correct this problem? You can foxtrot away from your opponent and instantly follow it up with a spin-dash TOWARDS your opponent > shield cancel. This would result in a scooting away or towards (though usually not as helpful for spacing).

Perhaps this isn't that helpful. To my knowledge Sonic is the only character that can do this. Maybe the time spent interrupting the foxtrot with a spin-dash>shield cancel = the time for the foxtrot to regularly end. Thoughts? Give it a shot.

Yes this is what I've been recentyly working on, and its sorta why i havent been on a while. im gonna practice some more, but it appears that you can use Sonic's foxtrox to avoid a attack, then during the foxtrot, sideB towards them. the thing is you are taking advantage of Sonic's long slide to escape attacks, then punish with instant sideB. I need to time this better, but you should be able to time it so that you can use the early Invincibility frames of the side b to counter a quick counterack attempt. Im really emphasizing this in my game now and seeing the responce to it. So far, its lovely, and I can still follow up with spring, or cancel the sideB, or jump cancel into Fair. so right now, i like it.

Also, I've been working with the B sitck a bit to see if we missed anything, and I think I found something very cool to abuse. if this isn't known already then know that it was here first.

Fact: Sonic can instant reverse fair from a Full Run via B-sticking. that's right. it is easy to do, but I tell you, I've seen NO ONE do this in any youtube vid of sonic, or any sonic I've played against.

Explanation: for some reason during the full run, if you tap the opposite direction on the C-stick (for the Spin Dash), the game forces Sonic to jump instead. But take a closer look: if you slow it down, the game for whatever reason forces sonic to turn around before the jump! It's like the sonic attempts to side B btu the game won't let him. As soon as you tap on the C-stick, use A and the control stick to fair in the appropriate direction. you are not screech canceling or anything like that. This is easy to do, you can try it in training mode and see it yourself. Please comment, especially after testing this. Once you do that, we can discuss possible applications.

once you guys agree on this I'll put in on the front page

 

[Tenki]

Yes this is what I've been recentyly working on, and its sorta why i havent been on a while. im gonna practice some more, but it appears that you can use Sonic's foxtrox to avoid a attack, then during the foxtrot, sideB towards them. the thing is you are taking advantage of Sonic's long slide to escape attacks, then punish with instant sideB. I need to time this better, but you should be able to time it so that you can use the early Invincibility frames of the side b to counter a quick counterack attempt. Im really emphasizing this in my game now and seeing the responce to it. So far, its lovely, and I can still follow up with spring, or cancel the sideB, or jump cancel into Fair. so right now, i like it.

You shouldn't really be able to side-B in the opposite direction during the foxtrot slide. You can, however, B-reverse it.

Also, I've been working with the B sitck a bit to see if we missed anything, and I think I found something very cool to abuse. if this isn't known already then know that it was here first.

Fact: Sonic can instant reverse fair from a Full Run via B-sticking. that's right. it is easy to do, but I tell you, I've seen NO ONE do this in any youtube vid of sonic, or any sonic I've played against.

Explanation: for some reason during the full run, if you tap the opposite direction on the C-stick (for the Spin Dash), the game forces Sonic to jump instead. But take a closer look: if you slow it down, the game for whatever reason forces sonic to turn around before the jump! It's like the sonic attempts to side B btu the game won't let him. As soon as you tap on the C-stick, use A and the control stick to fair in the appropriate direction. you are not screech canceling or anything like that. This is easy to do, you can try it in training mode and see it yourself. Please comment, especially after testing this. Once you do that, we can discuss possible applications.

once you guys agree on this I'll put in on the front page

you can RAR normally, but doing it out of a side-B stops all your momentum. not bad.

On an interesting note, if you have the 'technical skill' for it, you can pull off B-sticks effects manually.

 

[darkNES386]

EDIT:

Um..... on normal c-stick setting..... run away from your opponent... slam c-stick AND Joystick and B all at the same time. First press B then instantly hit the joystick and c-stick behind Sonic(towards your opponent).

Instant Fb in reverse direction! FROM FULL SPRINT! IS this new? DID I DISCOVER AN AT (this is probably what Jay is describing)?!

 

[Tenki]

EDIT:

Um..... on normal c-stick setting..... run away from your opponent... slam c-stick AND Joystick and B all at the same time. First press B then instantly hit the joystick and c-stick behind Sonic(towards your opponent).

Instant Fb in reverse direction! FROM FULL SPRINT! IS this new? DID I DISCOVER AN AT (this is probably what Jay is describing)?!

that's a B-reversal, which is what B-sticking does for you `.`;

you're being sarcastic, right?

 

[JayBee]

ok, maybe I overreacted? It is B sticking, but I never seen it used for Sonic. I used basic controls for the most part, most sonics do the same right?

About the slide>sideB: tap the control stick in direction, then delay the timing for the side B (so that you get some slide)


Yeah, the best way to say it is, an "instant Fb in reverse direction from a full sprint". So I guess this was common knowledge for Sonic?

In anycase, I'm not sure that this is like regular B sticking, because holding C stick in the opposite direction from a full run, forces a turnaround jump, not an aerial. Try it without commiting to an attack (just the Cstick and the Control Stick). you will see that sonic will land facing the opposite direction from where he was running. Then you have to use the control stick and A to do the fair, or the game will make you use the midair jump otherwise. it's wierd, but i don't think this is normal B-sticking situation.

That, and he turns around while on the ground a few frames before he jumps, which you can easily see, so I thought someone could find something there to exploit.

 

[thumbswayup]

Kojin are you going to CH4?

 

[darkNES386]

I was honestly confused. I found it hardly likely that I had discovered anything. I just wanted to get people's attention so that they could help point me t what I was doing.

I've never bothered with the c-stick (special) settings. Are you telling me Tenki that I can successfully do
"b-sticking" with other characters like lucas without using the special setting?

 

[Tenki]

I was honestly confused. I found it hardly likely that I had discovered anything. I just wanted to get people's attention so that they could help point me t what I was doing.

I've never bothered with the c-stick (special) settings. Are you telling me Tenki that I can successfully do
"b-sticking" with other characters like lucas without using the special setting?

Yeah.

It's all in B-reversals.

Manual B-reversals are somewhat 'technical' in how they're done- just keep in mind that when you perform a B-reversal with a move, it reverses your horizontal aerial momentum. So if you're floating left and do a B-reversal, you'll 'bounce' right.

Like for the Lucas PK Fire forward-facing wavebounce, it's all this:
[jump forward] > [back]+[ B ]-[forward] (bounces backward)
OR
[jump backwards] > [back]+[ B ]-[forward] (bounces forward)

Basically starts a PK fire facing backwards (which is normal), but you B-reverse it to face it forward.



and if you do it with just [forward]+[ B ]-[back], you'll still reverse directions, but you'll face the other way.


Unfortunately, you can't do things like that for Sonic because all his specials except for down-B reset momentum (spring and HA has straight vertical movement, side-B moves backwards), and you can't B-reverse his down-B.

 

[JayBee]

Kojin are you going to CH4?

If I can get a ride. Give me a call today dude, and we can talk about that.

And tenki, although this is the case, what you had said, I thought that if this is mastered then, we can have a better fair WOP for it. like a full run fair while moving away from u. I dont know if this can be replicated on regular settings, because from what I see, I'm relying on the game to instant turn me around on the ground so I can just 4A/6A for the fair. Im gonna try it today and will post about it by tonight, so plz keep in touch.

 

[darkNES386]

Yeah.

It's all in B-reversals.

Manual B-reversals are somewhat 'technical' in how they're done- just keep in mind that when you perform a B-reversal with a move, it reverses your horizontal aerial momentum. So if you're floating left and do a B-reversal, you'll 'bounce' right.

Like for the Lucas PK Fire forward-facing wavebounce, it's all this:
[jump forward] > [back]+[ B ]-[forward] (bounces backward)
OR
[jump backwards] > [back]+[ B ]-[forward] (bounces forward)

Basically starts a PK fire facing backwards (which is normal), but you B-reverse it to face it forward.



and if you do it with just [forward]+[ B ]-[back], you'll still reverse directions, but you'll face the other way.


Unfortunately, you can't do things like that for Sonic because all his specials except for down-B reset momentum (spring and HA has straight vertical movement, side-B moves backwards), and you can't B-reverse his down-B.

Thanks Tenki, playing 95% of my matches as Sonic has kept me from experimenting with B-reversals... b-sticking is just one way of performing them... correct?

I don't have access to my wii right now, so I"ll have to check this out later tonight.

 

[da K.I.D.]

make vids please,

also, i would like to be invited to this knowledge gathering group, i give tenki lots of advice for things to test and i experiment myself.

i am also revamping the stickyed matchup thread

 

[da K.I.D.]

ignore this post

 

[Tenki]

There's no knowledge gathering group.

lol seriously, I think R4ZE or someone PM'd me a while ago trying to get into the "Sonic council" or whatever.

I was like, there is no council XD

just the Sonic boards. and Tenki.

u ol so fani lolz

 

[JayBee]

wow, really tenki? i personally consider myself a one-man council. so whatever. theres no "official" group here, because that is too much work to maintain, when you can just say, "hey, lemme post on this here thread" But I do recomend to certain people who i think have strong imput in the Sonic Meta to post here specifically. But this thread is more of a Trial and Error thread, so we can find out here, then let others know when its viable.

I gotta practice B sticking for a while to see if i can get a better result. I'll try to post regularly on that.

P.S. I don't have any recording material, but I friend I know does, so Ill try to whenever I can. When I can, i will. i promise.


Also, just to let everyone know, I was playing Godismyrock yesterday after classes, and yeah, Yoshi's grab release/chain thing is the real deal. (don't know the official term.) He can do this on meta from one corner of the stage to the other, then let them drop off, and fall with a fair to spike. this is something Yoshis should love and abuse. Sonic cannot escape this setup if done right, which is I believe the only one in the game that sonc cannot escape. if a yoshi does this in a tourney, then he's gonna go up a tier level, or contend for that thought.

I also showed the instant reverse fair, and he agrees with me. Like I sad before, its different from normal B sticking or even the B reverse because no B attack comes out. AT ALL, not even the sound of the spin comes out. it just makes him jump facing the opposite direction immediately. then you fair as quickly as you can.

 

[JayBee]

Im really thinking about aggressively using spring as an anti air against chars with good air moves, because I seem to be getting the hang of the spring invincibility frames. I caught my friend with it as he tried to slam me from below, i springed up, he hit the spring, went up, and got hit with a non spiked dair from the top of the stage (where I was at the time due to the spring), and died. Yeah he got hit with the Kojin combo again

 

[darkNES386]

Edit: Oh... thanks Tenki... I wrote this after remembering I had asked a question =)

I gotta practice B sticking for a while to see if i can get a better result. I'll try to post regularly on that.

Set c-stick to special... pick lucas, press and hold forward on joystick and then back on c-stick. Not going to work like that with Sonic, all his moves control his momentum very specifically. He has to go up with the neutral, he has to slowly move back with the forward B... notice like you said that a fb after a spin shot stops Sonic dead in his tracks. The only move that might have B-sticking potential would be the down b... personally though, not worth it if it means losing my aerials on the c-stick.

Also, just to let everyone know, I was playing Godismyrock yesterday after classes, and yeah, Yoshi's grab release/chain thing is the real deal. Sonic cannot escape this setup if done right, which is I believe the only one in the game that sonc cannot escape.

Can someone help me break out of falco/dedede chain grabs without simply relying on my Spring?

I also showed the instant reverse fair, and he agrees with me. Like I sad before, its different from normal B sticking or even the B reverse because no B attack comes out. AT ALL, not even the sound of the spin comes out. it just makes him jump facing the opposite direction immediately. then you fair as quickly as you can.

Please get a vid/explain execution.

 

[JayBee]

Set c-stick to special... pick lucas, press and hold forward on joystick and then back on c-stick. Not going to work like that with Sonic, all his moves control his momentum very specifically. He has to go up with the neutral, he has to slowly move back with the forward B... notice like you said that a fb after a spin shot stops Sonic dead in his tracks. The only move that might have B-sticking potential would be the down b... personally though, not worth it if it means losing my aerials on the c-stick.

i know but for the purposr of using instant reverse aerials i can shift from using regular settings with b stick for quick spring and IRAs, using A fro smashes. you may be right, It may not be worth it, but ima try anyway and see what I can get outta it.

Can someone help me break out of falco/dedede chain grabs without simply relying on my Spring?

you have no choice. during the release of the dthrow:

DI away and Spring.

This is the only way I can see you doing it. besides, that is more that many of the other chars to say to chaingrabbing.

Please get a vid/explain execution.

cant show a vid yet, but as an explanation to the IRA fair :

1: set control of Cstick to special
2: Move with sonic until you are in "full sprint"
3: while holding that direction on the control stick, tap the opposite direction on the Cstick (if left on the control stick, then tap right on the Cstick and vice versa). Sonic should jump instead of his side B, and be facing the direction you Csticked.l You can test this by letting him finish his jump with no other input. he will land facing the opposite direction you were running.
4: F-air as quickly as you can accordingly.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. i wasnt asking for permission to post, i was asking to be included in what seems like a brain trust of sonic users that seems to be on a higher echelon when it comes to sonic knowledge. so that i have a go to place when i need something tested, cause i have to believe that tenki is pretty tired of me PMing him all the time to test stuff for me
2. you cant smash DI throws
3. with falco's CG it might be possible to f-air out of it, because thats the quickest airial he has, but with D3s it suspends you right above the ground so trying to do any move will only result in you suffering the landing lag of said move, setting yourself up for another D3 throw, or even a forward smash
4. in responce to the f-air thing, that seems a lot more convoluted than just RARing a forward air, which accomplishes the same result

 

[da K.I.D.]

5. sonic can spring out of yoshis grab release way before he can grab again or even up smash

 

[JayBee]

I apologize. there is no smash Di outta throws . that said, I have many times escaped chain throws from D3 and Falco by holding back on the control stick and Spring jumping. ive gotten out by the third throw attempt. I know this well because nto only do i have experience against many falcos, but I also am a good D3 player. so even though im sorry for saying it wrong, I will stand by that fact that sonic can escape it. I've done it too many times not to. i never tired fairing though.


da kid, i've tried that all day yesterday and godismyrock still got me. you must be mistaken.

but i'd like to ask you to explain RAR fairing for me here, if you dont mind. in either case try it the way im saying it to get a better understanding before you have a final verdict plz.


lastly, you dont have to do anything but post here regulary. that's all I ever ask the respectable sonic players.

 

[Tenki]

I also showed the instant reverse fair, and he agrees with me. Like I sad before, its different from normal B sticking or even the B reverse because no B attack comes out. AT ALL, not even the sound of the spin comes out. it just makes him jump facing the opposite direction immediately. then you fair as quickly as you can.

Hey, I tried it out.

Have you ever heard of RAR...?

[Full dash] > [quickly tap back] > [input jump for SH or full hop]

It works the same way ;p

It seems like, for some reason with Sonic, if you hit B in the opposite direction of a full run, instead of B-reversing like it normally would, it RARs and jumps for you. You can't do it out of initial dash state - only out of full dash state. With the B-stick, if you do it during initial dash, it does a forward side-B. Weird.



I forgot to mention this before, or I might have, but I was thinking of RAR F-airs as an approach against people who DI towards you - especially in edgeguarding. Maybe better for a sweetspot stagespike.

5. sonic can spring out of yoshis grab release way before he can grab again or even up smash

Incorrect. I tried it with someone using Sonic and spamming up-B, and I used Yoshi (one of my first times using him). If done correctly (pretty much as soon as Yoshi can move, dash and grab at Sonic's feet), like Dedede's chaingrab, it's inescapable. A really disheartening thing that happened was that, while I was doing this (it was through lag), I caught him in the frame before the spring came out, and since I wasn't pummeling/biting, he was basically... grabbed out of spring without actually having been able to spawn it, and when I released him on the edge, he was screwed.

Yoshi's release CG works on Sonic.

Furthermore, if he grabs you out of a spring, you're ****ed.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i will look into this, i regularly play with a top 5 yoshi, and i could spring when he did it, so let me get back to you on that

 

[JayBee]

First off i want to say "my bad" for the B stick move, i played with another freind this weekend and yeah, it was a RAR fair. that said, tenki has a an interesting idea for RAR as an approach against people who DI towards you, not only as edgeguarding, but against forward progressing moves. I'll try to work on my RAR as it is not good w/o b-sticking. regaurdless, it was weird

I worked on as stutterstep side B today against opponents, and it was fun to see it work. I played a jigglypuff player, and I baited the wop, then dashed forword, and side-B in his direction before the slide ended. it was cool.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ive created a really rough version of dash dancing based on what phanna does, but i think its different than what tenki does

 

[JayBee]

Dashdancing i think is really effective with sonic, so I use it often.

 

[da K.I.D.]

werd....

10 agreements

 

[da K.I.D.]

i need testing done
when does forward smash kill from the middle of final destination.
and when does forward smash kill from the middle of final D when held for the exact duration of a sidestep
its becoming my best kill method

also, when do up smash and upthrow kill from the top of the fin in corneria? and when does back throw kill on the sides of the ship ?

 

[memphischains]

do it yourself?

testing that kind of stuff doesn't take long and it's really easy

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont own a wii

 

[da K.I.D.]

i have to practice playing other people and techniques, on the rare occasion that i actually play the game. i dont get the chance to do percentage testing, so i have tenki do it for me

btw the tip you gave me on the jabs is really paying off, a fox jabbed me out of my jab once, but nobody else has broken my jab combo since

 

[Dark Sonic]

So uh... I was just wondering if any of you guys would mind playing against me online. I litterally have no one to play against and I kinda want to see what a good Sonic plays like. I mean, I only know my Sonic playstyle, and I think it would really help my game if I played against different playstyles to see if I could incorporate some of their stuff.

My friend code is 0301-9641-8431. If you want to play, PM me your friend code. I'm free Monday-Thursday any time before 7:00 PM and Fridays anytime after 3:00 PM.

 

[R4ZE]

hit me up on aim . shadowx777 I really want to play you actually. i hear good things of you. (we live in the same area)


Not many good sonics around our area

 

[da K.I.D.]

i was about to suggest rase
maybe you could even play him in person?

 

[R4ZE]

probobly. Some people were talking about you at gigabita dark sonic.

My friend like to go to tournaments a lot so i will probly be in orlando and around the area often here, if you go to these things we could meet up and play.

 

[da K.I.D.]

need testing done... lol

i had a thought
the roll animation of the spin dash/charge, ive heard it said that the longer it rolls the lower priority it has. this could be for 1 of 2 reasons

1. the longer sonic rolls, the more acclimated the opponent gets to the speed, and therefore they can more easily hit through the rolls

2. the longer sonic rolls, the less powerful the roll actually becomes.

In this case, sonic might actually have a visual cue. Its possible that at the beginning of the roll, theres a bigger hitbox around sonic. and its also possible that this bigger hitbox, and therefore higher priority, can be symbolised by the blue aura around sonic while he spins. And that while he spins, the aura gradually disipates, resulting in a smaller hitbox around sonic, and lower priority on the spin.

Its also possible that stale-move-negation correlates with this, and also determines the size of the aura, and therefore the priority of the spin