Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I now know for a FACT that Sonic is probably the only character in the game that can escape non-Ice Climber Chaingrabs by Smash DI ing out and Spring Jumping.

Sonic is the only one who can spring jump. XD

DDD's is set knockback I believe. Spring make the timing needed tight but he can keep Sonic in it.

 

[JayBee]

^okay, if so, then that's probably what it is.

never tested the yoshi thing though, tenki

 

[JayBee]

please test: I was playing Deman of JLB tuesday and he played Falco while I was sonic. he liked to spammed Side B alot for recovery, so i tried something, I baited it after knocking him off, then timed an Uptilt, and it knocked him upwards, kicking him out fo it. it worked twice when i tried it. please everify. i tried other tilts, but it didn't work and idk why. just a helpful tech against falco. Also see if there are follow ups for a combo afterwards.


Also, your ftilt is longer than his Dsmash, so if you aren't in point blank range when you block a move, use this move instead. It happens often due to the slight knockback that is just enough to push you out of the short grab range.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

It's probably because Utilt stays out longer than the others. With good timing i.e. Not Wifi. You can just Sonic Punch him out of it.

 

[JayBee]

yeah, i did it again this evening to a falco player as well as Sonic Punch, so its a timing issue.

Tenki, remember how you were playing with the quick turnaround side B cancel from a run? remember how you used it for grab? thought of an idea for it.

What if you bait an attack, then run the away, followed by an immediate turnaround side b from the run, not canceled, to attack them with it as thier attack completely misses? I think this would be cool to master, because that could make it even easier to bait attacks, and yeild a free combo out of it. I'll test, but i want you to give it a shot too.

 

[Tenki]

I do that quite a bit actually. I switched a while ago and almost completely stopped using b-reversal grabs and just doing B-reversal spindash combos.

B-reversal, like I mentioned elsewhere, is a universal move, and I've started using it with Falcon and Ike for interesting bait/retreat/gotyou moves.


Also, rolling towards your opponent from a spindash charging away from them = lol.

PS.

I've been working with using pivot grabs more often. I succesfully pivotgrabbed a Ganondorf Dsmash with Falcon without getting hit (out of its attack box range lol) O_O;

 

[JayBee]

okay just checkng. i also have been working on the pivoy grab too. that and mastering b reverse spindash combos. My sonic has gotten alot more annoying now, i think im getting people in my area to see how un hittable he can be.

 

[Deathwish238]

soo seriously how much priority DOES sonic's 2nd hit of u-air have???

 

[Tenki]

it has about 7.4294 priority points, as compared to the 3.25 average on the rest of his moves.

Really, it's just a matter of range and hitboxes >_>; if you can keep Sonic's body out of your opponent's attack box and tip with the U-air's 2nd hit, you'll win

 

[darkNES386]

I have a suggestion for this thread, perhaps you could update the main post with findings. Instead of them being scattered everywhere.

 

[Deathwish238]

it has about 7.4294 priority points, as compared to the 3.25 average on the rest of his moves.

Really, it's just a matter of range and hitboxes >_>; if you can keep Sonic's body out of your opponent's attack box and tip with the U-air's 2nd hit, you'll win

ahh yess i thought it was actually going to be over 9000!!!!!!!!!!!! O_O

lmfao yeah i realized the way i asked the question was ******** cuz a lot of people say that it can out prioritize GOD! lol so i was wondering if it was a matter of distance between you and your opponent and you barely tipping them with the 2nd hit OR if i could just take on a full dair from ganondorf or lucario not worrying that they are going to hit me XD.

lol ok thats what i thought thanks for the secret explanation >_O

yeah i was at a tourney and i kept on u-air'ing this ROB while he kept attempting to hit me with his dair and he kept on trying to hit me with it and i kept on hitting him with my u-air until i jumped too high and he hit me with his dair...ok...that was a bad example...BUT IT HAPPENED!! LOL

 

[JayBee]

Sonic's uair is faster. that's why you could get the ROB with it. in fact thats soemthing you should count on in that matchup.

tenki, where can I find information on sonics priority points information? please post it here.

Yeah, I need to post things on the main post for easier reference. will do. i know though that some things were very situational; so ill make sure that is known when I do it. give me a sec to compile the info gathered so far that is verified.

 

[JayBee]

It has a CHANCE of being okay. Most threads do if steered correctly. But look at the standard Sonic board goer. You KNOW this will turn to crap. But fine, no use in not giving it a shot.

So....That Luigi is a pain in the ***. Stupid double aerial Short Hops.

so, yeah, terios, does this thread not fail in your opinion? I was kinda upset that you and other people declared it such so easily, not cool man. i forgive you though.

 

[Tenki]

Sonic's uair is faster. that's why you could get the ROB with it. in fact thats soemthing you should count on in that matchup.

tenki, where can I find information on sonics priority points information? please post it here.

There isn't one thread that has it all.

the moves that clang with/outprioritize MK's moves are:
Glide Attack: (all aerial clang, but multihit moves outprioritize)
Side-B: F-air
Tornado: Nothing outprioritizes an aerial MK tornado except for spring and D-air/vertical aerials.
However, grounded Tornado can be beaten by Dsmash and Fsmash.

and an addition (not previously mentioned afaik), MK's latter part of N-air can be outprioritized by F-air and B-air for sure. Probably other aerials will work too.

Meh, basically, Sonic's priority moves are F-air, B-air, U-air, D-air, Fsmash (tip), Dsmash, side-B hop, and spring projectile.

 

[darkNES386]

Kojin this thread is awesome. Don't remove questions / tests though. Put back the MetaKnight stuff and Snake Cancel/Peach cancel stuff back. There's nothing wrong with keeping history of findings.

Would it be possible to discuss these various chase/keeping pressure methods and how effective they may be.

Spin Dash > SDJ off screen
Spin Dash > SpinShot Edge of Platform

 

[JayBee]

Thx. maybe this thread will get stickied one day. btw i didn't take it off, just reworded it.

I want to hear from you sonic mains how you apply pressure after a successful attack with knockback.

I for one tend to mix it up like this. hope you can understand some of my thoguhts here and understand that i think like this often when I play:

1: chase with run
A: dash A
- run away
- f tilt
- random F smash (semi charge)
- back to step 1
B: Shield canceled grab
- dthrow
- if not near ledge
- tech chase w/ throw
-repeat
- ASC cancel mindgame
- continue with SC
- Spin attack combo
- Spring > Aerial
- if near edge
- Shield cancelled grab
- pummel and release for gimp attempt
- D throw for gimp attempt



this is some idea of what Im trying to think like. just sayin...

 

[JayBee]

See if you can explain the Shuttle Loop better than i can tenki.

CALLING ALL SONIC MAINS!

This is sorta related to the "Shuttle Loop" tech that i have talked to tenki about before. if you didn't know:

"Shuttle Loop" in Sonic terms is what we call a series of movements that involve the Spin Dash/Charge specials and the footstool jump. When connecting a spin charge , it is possible to jump cancel then footstool the opponent on knockback. this causes the opponent to fall back down. Sonic Shield cancels an ASC in order to repeat the process. This movement takes a LOT of practice and is relatively situational, but can be done multiple times in a row as well as set up tech chasing.

basically if someone mastered this, you'd have the closest thing to a semi-infinite for sonic. the problem was to see if that was possible. I think I may have found something interesting to study and work at for all sonic mainers. This is serious, and I need you help. theoritically if this can be done, this may be what gets sonic out of low/bottom tier. I do this randomly as part of my mindgame, and I've gotten it at least 3 times in a row at times, but never practiced it much until now.

I was playing with it this week and found something interesting. if you use side b, and space it so that the opponent get hit during the hop, if you hold forward and tap jump immediatly after, sonic will do the footstool just above the floor. instaed of doing this some distance in the air, he seems to be able to keep the opponent within a Short hops height. he landed on the other side, then I repeated.


granted, i was in training mode, but i managed to get the computer past 100 percent before i messed up. then i wanted to see it % would prevent furthur use, and found out that even after 200% the technique still works.

PLEASE TEST

 

[R4ZE]

stool hop in general is an interesting thing especially for sonic. For example.. I was approaching a GaW from the air, so he started charging his Usmash. I was able to stool hop the GaW while out of the range of his Usmash and avoid it completely. it didnt even look like sonic touched him. Also another instance i was able to Stool hop a DDD multiple times while he was rising from his Up-B, it did atleast protect me form harm.

I think a sonic player should know that sonic is able to stool hop pretty far from his targets,and its pretty easy to pull of compared to other characters. should be incorperated more imo. then we will find out many trixies with it im sure.



and yes shuttle looping infinates should definately be looked into. I love this ****, when will sonic's game stop improving? never... sonic for god tier imo. lol

 

[JayBee]

In a perfect world scenario, if this can be made consistant, you have a character like Ice climbers then that can say, "dont let me touch you, or you're in an infinite." except that sonic is the fastest character in the game, one of the best comboers in the game, and one of the most aggressive edgegaurders in the game. This could make him high tier.

 

[Tenki]

I was playing with it this week and found something interesting. if you use side b, and space it so that the opponent get hit during the hop, if you hold forward and tap jump immediatly after, sonic will do the footstool just above the floor. instaed of doing this some distance in the air, he seems to be able to keep the opponent within a Short hops height. he landed on the other side, then I repeated.


granted, i was in training mode, but i managed to get the computer past 100 percent before i messed up. then i wanted to see it % would prevent furthur use, and found out that even after 200% the technique still works.

PLEASE TEST

Isn't that the beginning of the FSJ>Spring jab lock setup? ;d

at higher %'s, you'll have to do the side-B out of a shorthop so that you're closer to the guy's head when you land the side-B.

 

[JayBee]

Isn't that the beginning of the FSJ>Spring jab lock setup? ;d

at higher %'s, you'll have to do the side-B out of a shorthop so that you're closer to the guy's head when you land the side-B.

FSJ? Nexplain that setup for me. it wasn't a jab lock setup though.

on the second statment i simply spaced so hed be at the height of his side b hop. maybe yours is a better way.

EDIT: Im gonna be setting up some vids this week with a friend and hopefully show you guys what I cna do and show some things discussed here. so sit tight.

 

[Deathwish238]

good find but wouldn't DI mess it up >_< im pretty sure you guys took that into account just asking. and when you can can you guys show some vids plzz?

 

[JayBee]

i Had some vids ready but the quality was bad. So I gotta do them again. hopefully today or next week.


anyone tried the usefullness of the jab>side B set up? Im trying to revisit old things i tried when i first played sonic. i thought that this wouild be a cool mind game. Let me play with it some more though before I comment furthur.

 

[JayBee]

Ive being doing some work on sonic, specifically against DK for more exp. I played two competant ones specifically, and this is what I believe now:

against DK, all it takes is one hit.

Baiting DK dodges seem to be a good idea, because Dk's dodge animation is wierd and long. I consistantly managed to punish both players with long combos off a simple mistake, then tech chase them into additional combos. the best I did agaisnt one DK player (I think it was Omega Deman) was that I got him form 0% to 135% off one mistake with out getting hit. Then I tried killing with Up Throw>spring>Uair, with some success w/ appropriate mindgames. he loves his DK throws. The other one loved his Ftilt and UpSmash, so I baited those with Spin Cancels. he tried to pin me down by inching forward and tilting, too. once he overcommited I HA'd him. In both cases I can punish and rack up mad damage off of one mistake.

I don't think this is "OMG new info" but i wanted to reiterate the importance of maximum aggression off of a punished move from big characters.

Also, Due to the legnth of the hitbox, Ive started using nair a lot more often now in combos, and it seems to disrupt counterattacks out of combos more than many people thought...


Lastly, I can't do that darn HA spike!!!!! personally i dont think it can be consistantly replicated, but I'll wait to hear from the rest of you guys

 

[darkNES386]

Also, Due to the legnth of the hitbox, Ive started using nair a lot more often now in combos, and it seems to disrupt counterattacks out of combos more than many people thought...

Are you saying nair good for disrupting opponent's counterattacks... or as a counterattack. Either way the nair hit box is one of Sonic's most unique one. It moves a decent amount considering he's not swinging a sword, turtle or shooting flames out of his feet.

Lastly, I can't do that darn HA spike!!!!! personally i dont think it can be consistantly replicated, but I'll wait to hear from the rest of you guys

Are you talking about gimping with the HA attack? I tried to cover it in the "Come On! Step It Up!" guide. I really haven't tried to replicate it a lot recently because it was seeming hard to reproduce and it greatly depends on who and what your opponent does when recovering.

 

[Tenki]

Can someone compile 1-9 uses of forward ASC's damage?

like, stale move effect.

 

[JayBee]

Are you saying nair good for disrupting opponent's counterattacks... or as a counterattack. Either way the nair hit box is one of Sonic's most unique one. It moves a decent amount considering he's not swinging a sword, turtle or shooting flames out of his feet.



Are you talking about gimping with the HA attack? I tried to cover it in the "Come On! Step It Up!" guide. I really haven't tried to replicate it a lot recently because it was seeming hard to reproduce and it greatly depends on who and what your opponent does when recovering.

naw, i saw i thread that was proclaiming something like a "homing attack spike" so i tried to replicate it. no dice. On the earlier question, When I combo sometimes, after the attack, I continute with a Nair because it starts up really fast, and it puts them back in the "oh no im being comboes" state. plus it seems to give me almost no lag in when I land this way, and i usually up tilt into aerial, into a combo that fits the situation, or shield grab them. it'll be easeir to see whenever I get a vid up here.

honestly, tenki, I need to use it more. i keep on forgetting it in the middle of a match.

For me, I don't usually mind my ASC getting a bit stale, because it can be comboed more.

 

[Tenki]

Actually, ASC is a special case.

Stale moves have less hitstun.

Stale ASC = bad for combos.

and it MIGHT possibly have less priority too.

 

[JayBee]

ugh. either i havent noted that or Ive been doing a decent job of spreading my moves out so its not that bad.

although sometimes I'll shield cancel the ASC after the hit , anticipating a counter attack. i think that an aerial afterwards is pretty good too

 

[JayBee]

sry i havent been here a while, midterms and all that. do not let this thread diiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeee

hopefully I'll have something to talk about. soon

 

[darkNES386]

Let's discuss how to handle a fair/bair game and watch spammer.

 

[thumbswayup]

Use Diddy Kong, that's my answer.

 

[JayBee]

dont say that thumbs.

Most of the time, I try to bait them and Up Smash under him. i try to attack from under him, if hes falling in love with that move. the the other option for me is to dance around until he stops spamming it. i get real beligerent in this regard, that if you got a spammy move like that I really camp sometimes. The best G&W i play on a regular basis is Godismyrock, so I don't mind this match up, because I feel that all I have to concentrate on for the most part is the fair/bair, just avoid it until they get tired of it, random dash a, ASC cancel outside of its range...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

A lot of the time if they ONLY spam that I'll sit in SideB and wait till they are RIGHT there. Then use my invincibility frames and let it rip.

I wonder. Is sitting in your charging state considered stalling? Since most opponents tend to just stay REALLY far away.

 

[darkNES386]

No it's not stalling... it's not your fault if your opponent doesn't want to try and attack you or if they want to shield all day. From playing enough people, I've tried to develop a standard time to unleash the attack (at least the downB which is faster with no pop). The opponent who is foolish enough to put up a shield will notice how it's draining... they will realize they should probably let go and right about that time is when I unleash it. Very frustrating for them. They'll do nothing but spot dodge afterwards I guarantee it.

I noticed that Game&Watch has landing lag on a short hop fair which has much better knockback than the bair. The spin dash hop sometimes works but other times it appears to have weaker priority. I guess the timing really matters.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I used to be REALLY good at timing the Spin hop. I can't do that anymore. >.>

Oh and I was playing.... Valdens? And I came to realize that GaW's Fair has hitboxes during the ending lag. BUT they are very close to the ground. Walk away and SHBair and you can hit him. Just play a few GaW's I've played.... like 3 and I started getting used to the hitboxes. It's not how long they last as much as where they are. It's kind of easy to tell what GaW is going to do.... Not as easy as with Zelda but.....

 

[JayBee]

I used to be REALLY good at timing the Spin hop. I can't do that anymore. >.>

Oh and I was playing.... Valdens? And I came to realize that GaW's Fair has hitboxes during the ending lag. BUT they are very close to the ground. Walk away and SHBair and you can hit him. Just play a few GaW's I've played.... like 3 and I started getting used to the hitboxes. It's not how long they last as much as where they are. It's kind of easy to tell what GaW is going to do.... Not as easy as with Zelda but.....

yeah, ineed to get back in smash training for that, ive been lazy for a while. I really want to focus on fighting metas for now, but no one really plays him seriously, i have to go to lukky's to do that , but that is mad far away.

 

[Tenki]

The last GAW player I went against did some crazy IASA-style Usmash usage. You'd think it had ending lag lol.

arggh@gettingbioshocked.

 

[JayBee]

oh yeah, that move is like, lagless, in fact his down smash is like that too. i just zone when he spams that, i got to get him chasing me somehow. when he camps, i camp. that's my current phiosophy on GAW

 

[thumbswayup]

Yo Kojin about your text message, Cyberden is this Saturday and I will be there. Come so we can Sonic ditto.