Kittens versus Domo-kuns - Game over, who won?

[Swiss]

Ran, why would Zen unvote Gord and CC him?

As if Zen were cop, from his perspective, Gord must be scum. So why unvote? Why did you believe Zen's CC so quickly? Why did you not ask for any evidence of his claim?

 

[ranmaru]

Actually I was going to unvote myself.

I would think to prevent a self hammer or quick hammer.

Nothing wrong with unvoting, it's not like he had wishy washy feelings about Gord and unvoted.

He CC'd first, then unvoted. What do YOU think of his unvote?

Gord has been playing scummy. Zen doesn't usually play this way, he usually does more and may get heat from his actions. (By trying to lead town and such)

Here he has been quite conservative, Hasn't really said anything scummy in my eyes. I had a null leaning town read on Zen, so I wouldn't need to doubt his claim.

Do you doubt his claim?

Do you believe Gord to be the cop? Why if so?

 

[ranmaru]

But I did forget, they should both character claim.

 

[ranmaru]

Plus that was a pretty early cc. I'd yell at Gord telling him to die if I were the cop, but that's just me.

 

[Swiss]

I do not believe either is the cop.

 

[Swiss]

re: your question:

His unvote proves he is not cop.

My question to you; why do you think either Zen or Gord must be the cop? Why is there no room for Zen to be town gambitting?

 

[ranmaru]

I disagree.

I think it's between them because of the CC.

I don't think there is any room for a town gambit because it can out the 'real' cop if Zen isn't it. I feel his play does line up with that of a cop in my pov.

Why don't you think Neither is the cop? If you think Zen is gambiting, why do you think Gord isn't the cop?

 

[ranmaru]

Hey Shadow Moth. What do you think of Gord's claim? What do you think of Zen's CC?

Any other thoughts?

Swiss you are viewing for quite a while. What are you up to?

 

[Shadow Moth]

I agree with swiss. Neither claim is looking very solid for me at the moment.

 

[ranmaru]

Why exactly? (In your own words)

 

[Shadow Moth]

Besides the lack of claimed flavor, both claims seemed very rushed and sloppy.
I feel like the actual cop would care a LOT more about their own life. Especially when they're 50% of the town's power roles.

 

[ranmaru]

Ah ok. What are your current reads on Gord and Zen?

 

[Shadow Moth]

Ah ok. What are your current reads on Gord and Zen?

before both claims I had Zen as null leaning town and Gord as null leaning scum.
now I'd say both are looking pretty null to me. I can't read them atm. I never really got a lot of the Gord hate to begin with. I felt like a lot of people (joey in particular) overreacted to some posts Gord made.
Regardless of what's actually going on behind the scenes, those two claims are throwing off my reads on those two like all hell. And I don't like it. It's anti-town.

I'm tempted to just keep pushing for a Ran lynch and look at both of those two tomorrow.

 

[ranmaru]

What does Joey's over-reactions make you think of him then? You had a null scum read on Gord, so why don't you agree with Joey's reactions? You make it seem like Gord's posts were good, in spite of your previous read on him.

Do you think a cop would rather save himself then let a scum go like that? [because that is 50% of the scum too] (Knowing that the scum will fake claim to take the pr down with them)

Plus, you say a pr person wouldn't claim in a sloppy way? Why is that?

 

[#HBC | J]

One of Zen/Gord are dying now.

Unvote
Vote: Gordito

Totally cool with hammer.

 

[#HBC | J]

Also Swiss what are you talking about? You haven't seen Zen play much lately have ya? He's sporatic but I believe him as the cop.

If he's lying to me then all hell will be let loose after Gord-flip if Gord does in fact flip Cop.

@Doc: If Gord flips mafia, protect Zen. If not, go with your strongest town-read.

 

[ranmaru]

I still don't get why Swiss thinks Gord isn't cop if he thinks Zen gambitted.

 

[#HBC | J]

*shrug* Me neither.

Anyways, Ran. Will you hammer Gord for me?

 

[ranmaru]

I wish I could. I'm already on him.

 

[Swiss]

Ran - I feel that, if Gord were cop, he would have used his 'big moment' to swing some sort of a lynch that he felt was useful. As opposed to his "don't lynch me, but I don't care who you do lynch" post which to me seems inherently scummy. Having said this, we don't know the extent of his V/LA, so I'm willing to acknowledge this may be null.

In what way do you feel Zen's play has matched that of a cop? I dislike intensely your sudden swing to "Gord must die" and also your inability to co-operate with why you think you should be looked at upon a Gord scum flip. It feels like a very basic level of AtE where, if Gord were to flip scum, you would look like an angelic townie, who did what needs must to secure a scum lynch, even if it made them look slightly bad in the process (a move you've seen me do many times). And if Gord were to flip town, you get off having said "well, that leaves me clear for now then" - a stance I've seen far too often from scum, to 'admit' they're implicated from a flip they know won't happen.

If only Zen could drag me to the side, and whisper clamly in my ear what he wanted me to do. Alas.

And Ran, I'm at work 8AM-6/7PM GMT, so my posting is sporadic at best. I'll often be logged in as it's just a tab in the background.

@ J - I'm reconsidering my Zen isn't the cop stance quite rapidly. Very much depending on his next post.

 

[#HBC | J]

Dude, Zen's play matches up exactly how I'd imagine he would play the cop. I'm talking exactly.

A telling post that minus'd him some points and the way he has been playing like he is walking a tightrope would be the post where he called me scum for the dumbest reason he could think of. In those posts, he was telling me he was a PR and need to sully his name a bit.

You are also 100% right on the Gord thingy that if he was the cop he would have done something besides just claim cop and AtE a bit. He would have placed his vote on someone he wanted others to follow.

 

[ranmaru]

@Swiss:

I have already explained how it matches my view of how a cop should play. A cop should be pro town but shouldn't act scummy or do anything risky. Zen usually does act with risk and I have many times read him wrong because of this. I have seen it here and thought it odd until his CC. His conservative play only serves to show me that he had a REASON to play this way, and I believe him.

Not Ate at all. I am just being honest. It does implicate me and I don't want to feel like i'm giving doubt to others when I myself have made myself a connection to Gord.

I would think Gord might have played a little bit more like he did in RG, he seemed a bit dumb and town at the same time. Here he just seems very scummy.

 

[#HBC | J]

Going out for the day.

My opinion's known, hopefully just follow through.

 

[Swiss]

@Swiss:

I have already explained how it matches my view of how a cop should play. A cop should be pro town but shouldn't act scummy or do anything risky. Zen usually does act with risk and I have many times read him wrong because of this. I have seen it here and thought it odd until his CC. His conservative play only serves to show me that he had a REASON to play this way, and I believe him.

Not Ate at all. I am just being honest. It does implicate me and I don't want to feel like i'm giving doubt to others when I myself have made myself a connection to Gord.

I would think Gord might have played a little bit more like he did in RG, he seemed a bit dumb and town at the same time. Here he just seems very scummy.

Please quote where you previously said Zen was pro-town. Did you suspect Zen was cop before he claimed? On the condition Gord flips scum, do you think Zen investigating you would be useful?

 

[ranmaru]

Which ever I feel is beneficial. I know my reads tend to be bad so I'm willing to compromise only if I am convinced.

Currently I have:

Strong town read on Fynal
Town read on Swords
Null read on Joey (This is the first time I bring this up)
Null leaning town read on Zen (Because I did like his setting up alliances and such)
Null on you. (I do see some pro active ness from you I just didn't like that earlier question to fynal)

That leaves

Gord
Moth
J

Joey is a possibility, but I have seen alot from him and I'm willing to re-evaluate my read on him. (I was also a bit too lazy to respond to his post to me, I will get to it) Anyways, I was thinking maybe he was just attacking me for doing something he strongly feels is bad. I kind of dropped that because it wouldn't help in finding scum.

Well I'd rather the cop use their best judgement. It's better to have a list of scummies from them to choose from, that way scum can't nk their TARGET and waste an investigation.

If Gord or Moth is lynched, I'd say that one of [J, Moth, Gord, Joey] is copped. (Gord/Moth is interchangeable because one of them may be lynched)

I mean it's up to the cop. If he wants to try to do that, or try to cop lynch bait instead.

Your thoughts on DA LEEST?

This is where I first mention Zen I think. I had him as null leaning town. I never said he was pro-town, but his play is town enough in comparison with Gord. Plus his conservativeness makes sense.

I also explain here that it would be better to choose from a list of scummies, then to direct the cop. [Because scum can just nk his target and waste an investigation]

No, I didn't suspect he was cop before he claimed. I didn't suspect Gord was possibly cop either. Why does that matter?

I would think it would be better if I were put in a list, but it possibly would help if others had a hard time reading me. The list also helps because then TomMorow the town won't know who the cop investigated, so they'd have to wagon without his results to out scum opportunism. *Then he'd out them after some time.

What do you think of Moth's recent thoughts and reads? Do you have new reads?

 

[ranmaru]

I'm also going to assume your question addressed to me means you now believe Zen is the cop?

 

[Tandora]

(Will insert something funny later when I haven't just woke up)

Vote Count:
Ranmaru (1): Shadow Moth
Shadow Moth(2): Swiss, Fynal
Gordito(4): Ranmaru, Sworddancer, joey, J

Not Voting: Gordito, Zen

WITH 9 ALIVE, IT TAKES 5 TO LYNCH!
Deadline is Wednesday, June 29th 11:59 PM EST

 

[Shadow Moth]

What does Joey's over-reactions make you think of him then? You had a null scum read on Gord, so why don't you agree with Joey's reactions? You make it seem like Gord's posts were good, in spite of your previous read on him.

Joey gave a strong wrong town vibe from his overreactions. He seemed legitimate and sincerely followed through all the way to today's possible lynch.
I think Joey was making him look a lot more scummy than he was actually acting though. I'm not saying Gord made good posts, because he didn't. But he didn't make any posts that really just jumped out to me as scummy either. I'm pretty sure I said this earlier when I gave my initial read on him after my reread.

Do you think a cop would rather save himself then let a scum go like that? [because that is 50% of the scum too] (Knowing that the scum will fake claim to take the pr down with them)

in a 2 scum game I think it could go either way. The cop might decide to be aggressive and take the first scum down ahead of time and count on the doc for protection, or play it safe and try to find the other scum first so they can both be lynched at once without the cop dying too soon.

Plus, you say a pr person wouldn't claim in a sloppy way? Why is that?

In a game like this with 2 town PRs, a PR is an enormous power. There's not much for town to fall back on in the way of PRs if cop dies. It should be a cop and doc's top priority to stay alive as long as possible in this game. They are indisputably the most important town. Therefore a PR should do everything it their power to stay alive and that includes making a good, believable claim that makes town want to side with you.


Also I'm willing to lynch Gord today still, but if he flips scum I'd like to take a look at Ran toMorrow. I feel he kinda just slipped by today. A lot of people wanted him to be the lynch before the whole gord push started.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Zen, in your post where you unvoted, you said that you did not want to end the Day. If you really are cop, then you should know that Gord is scum. So what are you hoping to get out of the rest of the Day?

Now, Imo between Zen and Gord I would definitely believe Zen over Gord. If Gord really was cop, Zen would have no reason to cc no matter what alignment he was.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

In a game like this with 2 town PRs, a PR is an enormous power. There's not much for town to fall back on in the way of PRs if cop dies. It should be a cop and doc's top priority to stay alive as long as possible in this game. They are indisputably the most important town. Therefore a PR should do everything it their power to stay alive and that includes making a good, believable claim that makes town want to side with you.

But in a game that's open, why does a claim need to be good? Everyone's only going to claim one of three things.

 

[Shadow Moth]

But in a game that's open, why does a claim need to be good? Everyone's only going to claim one of three things.

Which is precisely why you need to make your claim that much more believable. Anyone can claim it so you have to make sure town knows it's YOU.

 

[Fynal]

...why does neither claim include flavor?

have either of you cops left crumbs?

i'm sorta inclined to believe zen because its a good explanation for his weird play with accusing J and such. or he could be scum, setting it up. but that seems reach-y and besides we'd just lynch him the next Day.

Why the unvote though? zen says he's not ready to end the day. if he's cop, he knows gord is scum, what else does he want to do?

 

[ranmaru]

@Moth:

Joey gave a strong wrong town vibe from his overreactions. He seemed legitimate and sincerely followed through all the way to today's possible lynch.
I think Joey was making him look a lot more scummy than he was actually acting though. I'm not saying Gord made good posts, because he didn't. But he didn't make any posts that really just jumped out to me as scummy either. I'm pretty sure I said this earlier when I gave my initial read on him after my reread.

What exactly did you feel was wrong from his reactions, bring up quotes. Point out what was wrong and why. (For example you say Joey exagerated some points, point out where he did this and why town would benefit in doing this)

in a 2 scum game I think it could go either way. The cop might decide to be aggressive and take the first scum down ahead of time and count on the doc for protection, or play it safe and try to find the other scum first so they can both be lynched at once without the cop dying too soon.

Then why do you think the second scenario is the case [playing it safe], and not the other?

Regarding the underlined, we can't lynch two people at one time.

In a game like this with 2 town PRs, a PR is an enormous power. There's not much for town to fall back on in the way of PRs if cop dies. It should be a cop and doc's top priority to stay alive as long as possible in this game. They are indisputably the most important town. Therefore a PR should do everything it their power to stay alive and that includes making a good, believable claim that makes town want to side with you.

I asked why WOULD a pr not make a sloppy cc, not why SHOULD one. Anyone can mess up. (Not that Zen messed up, and it didn't seem sloppy either) You say you think the CC was rushed, was this a bad thing? Should he have waited for other players to have posted first?

 

[#HBC | J]

HoS: Sworddancer.

FoS: Swiss

 

[Shadow Moth]

@Moth:



What exactly did you feel was wrong from his reactions, bring up quotes. Point out what was wrong and why. (For example you say Joey exagerated some points, point out where he did this and why town would benefit in doing this)

His #298 and #299 are what I was mostly referring to. Might not seem like much but that's what felt like the point when town sorta just started leaning towards a Gord lynch. Really looks like Joey is sort of strawmanning the whole Swords incident but I get a wrong town vibe from it.

Then why do you think the second scenario is the case [playing it safe], and not the other?

Regarding the underlined, we can't lynch two people at one time.

Because there's already a CC out there. Why would anyone CC TWO cop claims? That's gonna look really suspicious.

I asked why WOULD a pr not make a sloppy cc, not why SHOULD one. Anyone can mess up. (Not that Zen messed up, and it didn't seem sloppy either) You say you think the CC was rushed, was this a bad thing? Should he have waited for other players to have posted first?

@_@ This is a stupid question and you should feel stupid.

Someone would because they should. Obviously.

 

[#HBC | J]

@Fynal: Zen has left cop crumbs.

So has the doctor it seems, but I'm not gonna expose them. They are really good ones that are subtle as well. I laughed at a few.

Finished that re-read by the by. Glad I was right on Gordy going into it.

 

[Shadow Moth]

@Fynal: Zen has left cop crumbs.

So has the doctor it seems, but I'm not gonna expose them. They are really good ones that are subtle as well. I laughed at a few.

Finished that re-read by the by. Glad I was right on Gordy going into it.

J would you look at Ran toMorrow with me if I hammer Gord now?
I don't think we're getting anything more today.

 

[Shadow Moth]

Answer quick, I'll be gone until evening soon.

 

[#HBC | J]

Yes, I will consider Ranmaru for a hammer now.

He is on my watch list still btw.

 

[Shadow Moth]

Yes, I will consider Ranmaru for a hammer now.

He is on my watch list still btw.

K, Sounds good.

Vote: Gordito