Kirby's Toy Box - Kirby Moveset/AT/Competitive Discussion

[Togii]

So I decided to pick up Kirby, but I wasn't able to play against an actual person with customs on until yesterday. I made my training partner ragequit and say customs Kirby is broken, almost all because of Upper Cutter. If customs really do become legal, I think Kirby is gonna be a hell of a threat.

 

[t!MmY]

Are there any thoughts on using Kirby's Reverse Aerial? And by reverse aerial I mean going Bair rushdown all over their face, since his bair really powerful.

It's one thing to say a character has a "6-frame aerial which is strong" and quite another to put it into applicable use.

Kirby's shortcoming is approaching and getting into range. So 'going Bair rushdown all over their face' may sound exciting and profitable, but it's not like there's a switch you throw that gives Kirby uber rush-down powers.

But let's entertain the possibility a bit. This could become more viable when facing a lower-skilled opponent who is poor at dealing with aggro tactics, for instance. We then have a sluggish methodical character (Kirby) rushing in for the attack. I would think someone poor at dealing with aggro tactics would not be able to interrupt the approach with anything significant, which gives the Kirby player the chance to get into range, skid, jump, and then execute B-air (preferably sweetspotted). This nets you 12% damage and a not-so-strong position. Sure, repeat this enough and start going for KOs, but now your B-air is staled.

Contrast this with other options:
Grab -> U-throw (10%)
Grab -> B-throw -> B-air (22%)
Grab -> F-throw -> F-air x1 (11%) -> F-air x2 (14%)
N-air -> Grab (10% + Throw damage)
U-air -> U-tilt (13% or 14% + combo out of U-tilt)
D-air -> Vulcan Jab (~23%)
D-air -> Grab (9% + Throw damage)
D-air -> F-tilt (17%)
D-air -> U-tilt (13% or 14% + U-tilt combo)

These are the most common options Kirby has when running at the opponent and having free reign of approaches. Compare the damage output - which is at least as good or better than landing a B-air - but also take into consideration positional outcome as well. Additionally, B-air is not staled (with the exception of the B-throw to B-air combo) which allows for more damage output/knockback should it be used later in the battle.

This is all under the assumption that Kirby can somehow aggro rushdown the opponent. Wait... I think I have an answer to this!

 

[Asdioh]

This is all under the assumption that Kirby can somehow aggro rushdown the opponent. Wait... I think I have an answer to this!

I have a different solution, for automatic SS tier.

 

[t!MmY]

I have a different solution, for automatic SS tier.

The only thing I can think of when looking at that picture was how Kirby's pikmin pluck got nerfed (relative to Brawl). :*(

 

[Asdioh]

How so? I remember it being good in Brawl, but I don't remember how good. I just know it's still god tier in this game.
Kirby with any number of copy abilities would be automatically top tier, it's unfortunate he can't choose them as he goes into battle

 

[Cryz]

Hey everyone!

Just found an interesting thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/footstool-into-jab-lock-combos-will-shape-the-meta.391997/

Do you think kirby could have interesting killer combos with footstools jab lock?

 

[Phan7om]

If you can get the footstool into jab lock then yes, my setups havent been having any luck but maybe im just too slow. Im always getting get up attacked or they roll away before the dtilt comes out. Unlike brawl, we cannot reset them with an aerial. Plus its really hard to follow up on a dtilt reset sometimes since it knocks them pretty far away.

Heres some of the setups Ive used and have worked only sometimes, dont remember the %s but they were relatively low:
Rev Uair > Footstool > Dtilt
Utilt > Footstool > Dtilt
SHFF Uair > Footstool > Dtilt
Rev Uair > Utilt > Footstool > Dtilt
Dair > Footstool > Dtilt (only at high-ish elevation like above SV platform, usually obtained after a jump read)
possibly lots more with copy abilities, like ZSS or Robin maybe?

And of course, any missed tech. Ftilt, late Nair, Bair, and FH Dair around 130% are some of the more common ones to cause that.

And then afterwards, we just try to punish as hard as we can. Dair into utilt to followups, or Dair into dtilt mixup; and if they trip read the roll away or getup attack and possibly dair them again. *Side note, I find that Dair has lots of mixups, possibly since many people just assume youre gonna utilt they arent prepared for Dtilt, Ftilt, (another) SH Dair, jab mixups, grab, Inhale, Smash attack, etc.* If they are still at low enough % you could possibly start the footstool lock again with another setup. You can just jump in and inhale them. If you reset them at high %s, RAR Bair can finish them off if youre close enough to the edge. And of course if you have a good copy ability, you lab up and find these elaborate punish setups. With Samus or Pac Man you could Fthrow to Charge Shot or Key. DK Giant Punch is powerful. Pika's Tjolt can possibly trip them again then read the roll. etc. etc.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Posted this in the customs thread, but dropping it here for those who aren't as interested and don't check it.

Really not sure why, but I never posted my custom Kirby write-up over here. As most of you keep within a select few boards, I'm sure it hasn't been seen by much Kirby mains.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-392#post-18559145

I've been playing with custom moves since a week after the 3DS launch, along with extensively testing them with others. I'm really into custom moves, so I'd do anything to get them widely legalized. Right now, having EVO on track with customs and /r/smashbros and Smashboards becoming increasingly interested in them gives me high hopes for their legalization. As I said in the post, I think Kirby is at the bottom of the barrel without customs. However, with them, he's boosted up into the mid-tier section. While I haven't said anything about it to prevent some horrible war between the Kirby characters, in a custom meta, Kirby is probably the most viable out of our three reps. This is mainly because Kirby has better MUs with the top characters compared to Meta Knight and Dedede, but gets bopped by lesser characters.

 

[Nickname87]

A small piece of tech ive found is that if someone sheilds your stone you can go into hammer to easily break sheilds

 

[Phan7om]

A small piece of tech ive found is that if someone sheilds your stone you can go into hammer to easily break sheilds

Who would be holding shield that long tho?

 

[Nickname87]

Who would be holding shield that long tho?

i dont mean they will hold it the whole time i meant after the rock they will probably un sheild and either run away or punish and then pull out the hammer and wait for them to sheild

 

[Phan7om]

I was in the lab messing around as usual. I inhaled into jump into instant copy and you can potentially get a Bair kill around 120% (or maybe a strong copy ability that you dont have to charge like eruption or something) if they throw out a move or they airdodge... or if they do nothing I guess. It could catch someone off guard if they dont know about it.

Hopefully this isnt a known thing and im stating obvious information lol~

 

[Nickname87]

i have been going to some online tourneys lately and have fond that stone is a good option to punish dash attacks but of course this is online so there maybe lag aiding me in this and im not too sure how great my opponets are in skill level so i just wanna put it out there and see some thoughts on this

p.s. has anybody had any luck in landing stones through all the slanted edges on delfino cause i always seem to get them and it makes me happy

 

[Ansou]

i have been going to some online tourneys lately and have fond that stone is a good option to punish dash attacks but of course this is online so there maybe lag aiding me in this and im not too sure how great my opponets are in skill level so i just wanna put it out there and see some thoughts on this

p.s. has anybody had any luck in landing stones through all the slanted edges on delfino cause i always seem to get them and it makes me happy

I would say that punishing dash attacks with Stone is completely dependent on which character you are up against. Fast dash attack with low lag would be very hard to punish with Stone unless you get a divine read while slower dash attacks are obviously much easier to punish.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Actually There is a way, though it's hard timing to actually set up inhale(I haven't done this often but it has worked pretty much every time from what I can remember)
Ok obviously Kirbys Utilt string is pretty good and very fast right?
Well if you time it right, it IS possible to have the opponent waste their double jump, but before they escape you can still hit them with the up tilt.
Now the front of the Utilt is the weakest part and has little knock back, meaning that you can juggle your opponent longer, because you can still move slightly while consistently using Utilt and if you do it right, your opponent should not be able to escape and are going to get inhaled.

Now like I said, it requires good timing, but I have done it before, unfortunately I don't think this works well on characters with multiple jumps, and it works best on fast fallers who get trapped in the string longer then most other characters.

 

[Togii]

So, say the following conditions happen in a match:

Your opponent is above 30% on their last stock, while you have two stocks.

OR

Your opponent and you are both on your last stock, both of you are at or over 100%, and your opponent's percent is more than your own.

In either of these situations, there should be no reason for Giant Hammer Kirby to lose against Little Mac, Marth, Lucina, Ike, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, or Mii Brawler (provided he doesnt take Shot Put). This list increases to include Captain Falcon and Meta Knight if you have the required reaction time to beat their dash grabs.

Can anyone any flaws with my reasoning? Cause if not, Giant Hammer should be HEAVILY considered for these matchups.

 

[Unknownkid]

Not really. I mean it is cheap but doable. I was able to do it against Bowser and Jigglypuff in a custom tournament. The only flaws Giant Hammer has are the startup (which is negligible in my opinion), no super armor during the swing and stalling the match.

 

[|RK|]

So I decided to pick up Kirby, but I wasn't able to play against an actual person with customs on until yesterday. I made my training partner ragequit and say customs Kirby is broken, almost all because of Upper Cutter. If customs really do become legal, I think Kirby is gonna be a hell of a threat.

Upper Cutter scares people, lol

 

[Togii]

Not really. I mean it is cheap but doable. I was able to do it against Bowser and Jigglypuff in a custom tournament. The only flaws Giant Hammer has are the startup (which is negligible in my opinion), no super armor during the swing and stalling the match.

I didnt include Bowser because of fire breath and Dash Slam. Anyone with a projectile or long-ranged attack can just rack up damage on you and then wait out the clock (in situation #2 presented earlier). Other than that, I feel like this move is pretty underrated. If you're a stock up on the majority of the cast, it gives you so much control it's ridiculous.

 

[Dessa]

Can't you be grabbed out of Giant Hammer? And in the case of matching stocks, super armor doesn't prevent you from taking damage, just knockback. Or am I misunderstanding it?

Also, first post! Hiiii! Been lurking this board for a couple months.

 

[Togii]

You can be grabbed out of it, but the hammer release is usually faster than most dash grabs. And even if you mess up thr timing and they grab you, you can just do it again since their reward is so low comparatively.

In the case of matching stocks, yes, you still take damage. However, the characters I listed don't have any way to deal damage to you outside of Giant Hammer's range. Therefore, if they have higher damage than you, they are forced to approach or lose to the timer (provided you're also both over 100%).

 

[|RK|]

Wait, do windboxes affect characters with active superarmor? If so, Storm Thrust, Storm Punch and Tempest can pose a threat.

 

[Dessa]

Well, in a few of those cases, characters have counters that make the grab-or-wait dynamic even more perilous for a waiting Kirby. For others, they have moves of their own with super armor that can turn the baiting game into a 50-50.

Beyond that, at matching stocks over 100%, a whiffed Giant Hammer carries no small risk. Take Jigglypuff. She can float above and threaten to land behind, or otherwise play the same baiting games that Kirby does with his multiple jumps. If she manages to land behind, her grab will beat out Kirby's turnaround animation (and her sing might be effective too). Or she could fake landing behind to bait out a whiff, since Kirby had to rely on anticipation to connect at that point.

 

[Togii]

Well, in a few of those cases, characters have counters that make the grab-or-wait dynamic even more perilous for a waiting Kirby. For others, they have moves of their own with super armor that can turn the baiting game into a 50-50.

Beyond that, at matching stocks over 100%, a whiffed Giant Hammer carries no small risk. Take Jigglypuff. She can float above and threaten to land behind, or otherwise play the same baiting games that Kirby does with his multiple jumps. If she manages to land behind, her grab will beat out Kirby's turnaround animation (and her sing might be effective too). Or she could fake landing behind to bait out a whiff, since Kirby had to rely on anticipation to connect at that point.

I know Marths counter wont work against Giant Hammer, not sure about Ike's or Little Mac. As for the Puff example, landing lag and startup frames for the grab take way more than the turnaround animation to start. The charge can be released when the turnaround animation BEGINS, so there's barely a delay from needing to hit behind you, if any.

I will admit that a whiffed giant hammer over 100% is a risk, but so is a forward smash, dsmash, or usmash. If you hit, they're dead. If you don't, there's not even a guarantee that they'll hit you with a strong attack during the endlag. More than half the time, you'll probably get hit by a dash attack or grab.

@ |RK| , idk. I'll test when I get home from work

 

[Bribery]

A fully charged Giant Hammer is completely unblockable so it should bypass all Counters and shields.

Giant Hammer is a solid move but I can't imagine it working on more skilled opponents. Most would probably bait out the swing and then punish you accordingly. It's still a solid #YOLO move for when you're up a stock. At the very least, it's less situational than Hammer Flip imo.

 

[Togii]

A fully charged Giant Hammer is completely unblockable so it should bypass all Counters and shields.

Giant Hammer is a solid move but I can't imagine it working on more skilled opponents. Most would probably bait out the swing and then punish you accordingly. It's still a solid #YOLO move for when you're up a stock. At the very least, it's less situational than Hammer Flip imo.

It seems to me that Hammer Flip is strictly worse than Giant Hammer.

 

[Nickname87]

i still think hammer flip is better

 

[Ansou]

It seems to me that Hammer Flip is strictly worse than Giant Hammer.

I wouldn't say strictly worse, since Hammer Flip can actually be used as a punish and as a finisher for jab lock combos.

 

[Togii]

I wouldn't say strictly worse, since Hammer Flip can actually be used as a punish and as a finisher for jab lock combos.

I'd argue that Hammer Bash and FSmash do those jobs better than Hammer Flip.

 

[Nickname87]

but is it as epic looking as a flaming hammer... i didnt think so

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Nobody saw my post on how to use your Utilt strings to Inhale?

 

[|RK|]

I'd argue that Hammer Bash and FSmash do those jobs better than Hammer Flip.

Right, but Hammer Flip gives you the best of both worlds. Plus, superarmor during the swing is nice.

Nobody saw my post on how to use your Utilt strings to Inhale?

Yeah, it's known. But thanks anyhow!

 

[Nickname87]

Right, but Hammer Flip gives you the best of both worlds. Plus, superarmor during the swing is nice.

Do you get super armor during any part f the swing or only when is is 100 % charged

 

[Unknownkid]

I didnt include Bowser because of fire breath and Dash Slam. Anyone with a projectile or long-ranged attack can just rack up damage on you and then wait out the clock (in situation #2 presented earlier). Other than that, I feel like this move is pretty underrated. If you're a stock up on the majority of the cast, it gives you so much control it's ridiculous.

I was saying that I killed a Custom Bowser with Giant Hammer. Not that Bowser should be included. Why is Shulk excluded though? Don't use Giant Hammer for timeout... Come on Kirbys, we are better than this. We are not Olimar, Rosy, ZSS, Brawl MetaKnight, Zero or Dabuz. Use it for punishing your opponents and counters.

Do you get super armor during any part f the swing or only when is is 100 % charged

Only 100% charged for Hammer Flip and after the first charge for Giant Hammer.

 

[Cazdon]

Can we talk about Jumping Inhale as an off-stage options? I feel like it's a good mix up for coming on stage but what do you guys think?

 

[|RK|]

Only 100% charged for Hammer Flip and after the first charge for Giant Hammer.

But no superarmor during the swing for Giant Hammer.

And Shulk's probably not included because of Monado Speed.

 

[Unknownkid]

Can we talk about Jumping Inhale as an off-stage options? I feel like it's a good mix up for coming on stage but what do you guys think?

http://smashboards.com/threads/kirby-the-amazing-croations.369252/page-20#post-18712505 Zero thinks too.

But no superarmor during the swing for Giant Hammer.

And Shulk's probably not included because of Monado Speed.

Yeah, I know.
I see.... wait is Speed faster than Captain Falcon?

 

[|RK|]

Yeah, I know.
I see.... wait is Speed faster than Captain Falcon?

I believe it's Sonic fast, IIRC.

EDIT: Actually, maybe he's just slower than Falcon. Not sure how fast the custom variants are, though.

 

[Unknownkid]

Ah! All the more reason to get his Power.

 

[Nickname87]

i was playing around in training mode and saw that after an uptilt string you can jump up really fast and get a footstool which makes them fall into the ground (easier for some characters than others) and can be followed up by a dair or for some characters like fox or greninja you can use a stone.