Kirby's Guide to Secondaries

[TaterSalad0811]

With the new tier list and the recent matchup re-discussions across the site, I have decided to take it upon myself to create the Kirby Guide to Secondaries, a way to help Kirby players better understand the positions and make more informed choices when picking up a secondary character to learn.

The system works like this. Look at the example chart for a Kirby that has Meta Knight as a secondary:

Now let's look at the Ice Climbers matchup.

The two individually come out to:

35-65
55-45

By picking Meta Knight as a secondary, this player theoretically eliminated a potentially bad matchup for Kirby by having a backup plan. By using the best matchup of both Kirby and the secondary, you an see which secondary helps which matchups, and which one is best suited for your playstyle. Each chart will have a brief summary on which matchups are aided the best, and which are still negative, and should be avoided.

Here is a blank chart for those who wish to help with the project:

Note that this is a very rough copy, and needs editing once put together.



COMPLETED CHARTS

 

[DUB]

I like this. The charts are appealing to the eye and as frequently as this is asked, this loos like a god secondary thread. I recently just picked up an entire new main/secondary in Brawl to help keep my interest in it. Kirby/Snake all dai.

 

[A1lion835]

This looks like an awesome thread. I wish I could help, but I'm terrible with image stuff.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

I just got bored last night an started messing with MS Paint.

Glad you guys like it though, because unlike the new players guide, this I can actually contribute to semi-consistently.

Also, the numbers might also attract other people to 2nd Kirby. Yay for rep!

Also, if I messed up some of the MU numbers, let me know so I can change them. Some I kinda had to improvise, since boards don't always agree/haven't discussed recently.

 

[fromundaman]

Hmmm... I thought this would be another pointless secondary thread, but this seems useful. Good job.


Sadly, the end result is going to show that MK is the best secondary, like he would be with any other character.
The natural progression then leads to maining MK and seconding MK.

 

[DUB]

Of course it will, but theres always player preference. Playing as MK has its drawbacks to...I think. >.> I personally was thinking about using Snake as a secondary because he handles the climbers pretty well, but I'm curious to see how others will stack up. Tater, if you need help with this project I could definitely help.

 

[fromundaman]

The only real drawback is that everyone knows the MU.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

That's why you want to avoid MK, the advantage of mid-low tiers like Kirby is that more commonly used character boards often overlook his awesomeness, giving us a distinct advantage at higher levels of play.

 

[fromundaman]

lol... Kirby's been mid tier for like... a week...

Also, you don't want to avoid MK... you just want to be ready to work your *** off to learn MUs. In the end, he really is the wisest choice in this game.
That being said, either due to his playstyle, tier placement, popularity or even just not finding him fun, there are a lot of us who don't want to play him

 

[Falconv1.0]

Diddy and Snake are just about as viable. If you find yourself using mk as a secondary for Kirby's bad match ups, you'll find yourself using him against a lot of the more commonly used characters, ie, just ****ing main him.

Kirby makes me sad.

 

[A1lion835]

Diddy and Snake are just about as viable. If you find yourself using mk as a secondary for Kirby's bad match ups, you'll find yourself using him against a lot of the more commonly used characters, ie, just ****ing main him.

Kirby makes me sad.

Let me run through my list of Top and High Tiers.

MK - Use MK.
Snake - Use MK.
Diddy - Debated.
Falco - Use MK.
ICs - DEFINITELY use MK.
Marth - Use MK.
Wario - Use MK.
D3 - Use MK.
Pika - Use MK.
Olimar - Crap, when was the last time Kirbies came to a consensus on what this matchup was? Probably still better to use MK.
Lucario - Use MK.
G&W - Use MK.

...Yea, I see what you mean.

Kirby is a good character, aside from the fact that he hasn't improved at all since the day brawl came out (this is a slight hyperbole, before you complain).

 

[fromundaman]

Let me run through my list of Top and High Tiers.

MK - Use MK.
Snake - Use MK.
Diddy - Debated.
Falco - Use MK.
ICs - DEFINITELY use MK.
Marth - Use MK.
Wario - Use MK.
D3 - Use MK.
Pika - Use MK.
Olimar - Crap, when was the last time Kirbies came to a consensus on what this matchup was? Probably still better to use MK.
Lucario - Use MK.
G&W - Use MK.

...Yea, I see what you mean.

Kirby is a good character, aside from the fact that he hasn't improved at all since the day brawl came out (this is a slight hyperbole, before you complain).

Other than Oli, ICs, and Marth... why all the others?

Kirby does better or the same vs Pika, D3, Wario, Falco, and there's really not a big enough difference in most of the others to really justify using a character whom everyone knows the MU to, but you are less comfortable with.

 

[A1lion835]

Other than Oli, ICs, and Marth... why all the others?

Kirby does better or the same vs Pika, D3, Wario, Falco, and there's really not a big enough difference in most of the others to really justify using a character whom everyone knows the MU to, but you are less comfortable with.

I'm fairly certain that Kirby vs Pika is 55:45 their favor. Maybe I'm just ignorant (that's a distinct possibility), but I believe MK has a better matchup than that.

D3 and Wario are contreversial ratios, so I shouldn't have used them.

Falco is especially contreversial, although I agree with t1mmy that it's in Falco's favor.

Are you saying that it's better to go Kirby vs MK, Snake, Lucario and G&W?

The others were just me being "Okay MK has a better matchup," which is stupid. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[DUB]

I'd like to see one of these for Wario. Seems like he would cover fairly well. He's good against IC, Olimar, and is not a bad option against Falco if you don't want to use Kirby. They have some stages they do well on in common to.

 

[fromundaman]

I'm fairly certain that Kirby vs Pika is 55:45 their favor. Maybe I'm just ignorant (that's a distinct possibility), but I believe MK has a better matchup than that.

D3 and Wario are contreversial ratios, so I shouldn't have used them.

Falco is especially contreversial, although I agree with t1mmy that it's in Falco's favor.

Are you saying that it's better to go Kirby vs MK, Snake, Lucario and G&W?

The others were just me being "Okay MK has a better matchup," which is stupid. Thanks for pointing that out.

Meh, I personally believe it's dead even, or in Kirby's favor for Pika, but W/E. If that's the ratio we use, than put that back in the "don't switch characters for such a barely bad MU, especially if your other character gets CGed to like 60%" category.

Especially since Wario is/was considered even at one point for MK, and Falco is only in MK's favor if planking is allowed due to Falco's terrible offstage/ledge game.

As for MK, Snake, and Lucario... yeah, I am. G&W you might be better going MK though depending on how familiar you are with the MU. I prefer Kirby myself.

But yeah, I realize what you were doing, just pointing this out so people looking in here don't get the impression we suck vs all high/top tiers.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

I would say that we actually do somewhat decent against top-high tiers, seeing as most characters in our tier are disadvantaged, and MK isn't really a good choice when you think about it. Look at it this way, if approx. 20% of all mid-large tournament entries are MK users (not counting people who switch mid-set), what matchup will every single person in the building be near guaranteed to have memorized? Not to mention, by playing as MK, you have to know the MU against the entire cast to it's fullest, because they memorize yours more.

 

[fromundaman]

That's what I'm saying.

On the other hand though, odds are that your character is vastly superior to yours... Also, if you play MK, you'd better know the ditto like the back of your hand.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

That to. And dittos are always 50:50, where as... no wait, nobody has a better MK matchup...

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

The current matchup percentage is vastly outdated. I firmly hold that MK has a large advantage over Wario. If for no other reason than MK can also hold a percentage lead over Wario if he so chose to (there are obviously many other reasons).

I do Kirby/Marth right now. It's a weird combination, as Kirby does not help any of Marth's weakspots (MK, Snake, DDD). But Marth fixes the IC's problem pretty nicely, along with G&W, Olimar, Pikachu, and pretty much the rest of the cast excluding his 3 weak characters.

I can't stand playing MK in singles though, and Snake is too gay for me to use. I might try Diddy at some point. More likely, I might drop Kirby in singles and go all Marth since 2 of his "bad" matchups are arguably just 45/55... Kirby's pretty bad lol.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

And I feel that Kirby's NOT "pretty bad lol" because IMO, a 45:55 MU isn't bad, it's for all intensive purposes even, just a slight imbalance which is neutralized with good stage choice.

 

[fromundaman]

Haha Ledger, I have the same problem. I play Kirby and Mario, which pretty much means all my matchups don't really change... they both have the same good and bad MUs more or less it seems...

Though it solves the IC problem too, and quite a few other MUs get a bit better.



EDIT: @ Tater. Agreed. Especially considering how much janky stuff Kirby can do on a lot of stages.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I meant how 2 of Marth's "bad matchups" are practically neutral.

Kirby's bad matchups are bad, lol. No real way around it. But Marth does about as well vs. Snake as Kirby does.

Kirby is clearly very bad in comparison to Marth, imo. But I'll keep playing both because I enjoy doing so. At least for now.

 

[fromundaman]

Not really, it's just that Marth is so clearly an amazing character. I honestly see him as like #4-6 in this game.

 

[Sage JoWii]

I main Kirby and secondary Toon Link. Snake, DDD are lol match-ups for me because they're simple (with as much MU experience I have against those).

 

[fromundaman]

Marth, however, has to suck...

 

[TaterSalad0811]

I hate Marth. It always seems like there's 2 kinds of Marths, 1 I can beat no sweat, the other eats marshmallow pies for breakfast.

 

[fromundaman]

Agreed. The former are the offensive Marths and the latter the defensive ones...

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I figure if I can learn to not get grabbed by DDD, not getting grabbed by Kirby should be a whole lot simpler overall. And forget about Kirby's air game, that ain't happening against Marth x_x.

I don't know why the matchup is as high as 40:60 tbh. Kirby is spherical strawberry cake for Marth.

 

[fromundaman]

The MU is definitely horrible for Kirby, I COMPLETELY agree. In fact, I honestly think he's our only hard counter other than ICs, BUT don't go thinking you won't be getting grabbed. I feel like Kirby has more mixups than D3, making grabs more likely.

 

[Kewkky]

I see Marth as being 40:60, I don't feel it being harder than that... And DDD isn't a hard counter, it's around 40:60 as well simply because shieldcamping grab-happy DDDs are always a pain... Too much damage off of grabs, and before you know it you're at 100%.

 

[fromundaman]

Wait... we have D3 as a hard counter?


****... I mean, annoying, yes, but I don't see it worse than 55-45...
Then again, you know... I suck

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Lol, I'm actually in favor of 55-45 in DDD's favor for Kirby. It's not that bad. You can bair poke shield campy DDD's without getting grabbed if you space it right. It's definitely not an easy matchup though.

I like getting his power in that matchup because I can use it's better range to stop pivot grab camping. I have no freaking clue how else to deal with DDD's pivot grab as Kirby. It's range is dumb.

@Fromundaman - Yeah, you're going to get grabbed. But Brawl has no follow ups. You'll get your 8-12% from a grab, maybe a follow up if you predict correctly, and potentially a juggle, but that's not nearly enough to offset all the dumb stuff that Marth does to Kirby while Kirby fishes for that grab. Lol, and spacing Bairs is a one way street to tipper fair kill at like double digit percentages.

 

[~Shao~]

Discussion on my 2 most played match-ups? Finally.

vs D3, 40:60? His favor? No ****ing way. 55:45 - 45:55 (55:45 IMO)
vs Marth, it may be worst than 40:60, if he knows the match-up really well. But 30:70 at worst.

Reasoning to come later.

 

[Kewkky]

I play LingLing, and I end up doing better against him as ZSS.

Truth is, the MU comes down to "who can grab/counter OoS the opponent's moves fastest", with him having the better range. DDD does 16-17% off of one grab independent of %, while we do less. We're lighter and die quicker than he does, he survives way too long with proper DI. We can't get kirbicide>footstools on him if he knows we can do that, so he lets us recover safely while he recovers from up high... AND his bair has a bigger disjoint than ours (we're faster in the air though)... I've played the MU a lot, this guy's a very good player, and I'm pretty sure Kirby doesn't have an advantage. If I beat him with Kirby, it's because I played that much better than him... With ZSS not so much, I can combo DDD so my damage output increases, and having the ability to KO at 0+% really helps for punishment options, something Kirby has to mindgame to achieve.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Lol, well, I know Kirby's weakness pretty well. It's gg once Marth gets Kirby above him. Kirby has literally no safe options to get back to the ground vs. Marth outside of mindgames. Recovering is a massive pain vs. Marth too, but I guess that goes both ways.

Kirby is faster in the air than DDD, but definitely not vertically. I usually end up getting killed by spaced and FF'd bairs from DDD's since he drops so fast. Especially if I'm forced to recover low. It is most definitely not in Kirby's favor. It wouldn't even make sense if it were. Our best options on-stage are bair punishes and shield grabs. But he has a better bair and a better grab game than we do. Our offstage games are about even, but Kirby has a MUCH harder time getting that fat penguin off the stage to begin with.

I think the DDD boards have the matchup as 45:55 in our favor right now, but no one has really articulated any good reasons as to why that is.

 

[~Shao~]

Truth is, the MU comes down to "who can grab/counter OoS the opponent's moves fastest", with him having the better range.

But our attacks are faster. Also, don't forget who can b-air better

DDD does 16-17% off of one grab independent of %, while we do less.

However, we can follow up with a juggle from a f-throw/d-throw, while he cannot follow up his throws (other than tech chase with d-throw).

We're lighter and die quicker than he does, he survives way too long with proper DI.

Granted, but we can survive until high percentages too. Once you're at 80~90%, he will try to u-tilt you for the kill. If you careful enough and don't get hit, you can live up to ~150% reliably. Chances are you'll die from a b-air instead of u-tilt. And a fresh f-smash can kill him considerabily early depending on DI and position.

We can't get kirbicide>footstools on him if he knows we can do that

Just spit him under the stage and stage spike/pressure him and punish his up-b.

, so he lets us recover safely while he recovers from up high...

We can always (try to) pressure his recovery. If he has to recover lower, his slow air speed makes him an easy target to d-air>footstool>rinse and repeat. He can harass us off-stage too, using the long lasting disjoints from his b-air.

AND his bair has a bigger disjoint than ours (we're faster in the air though)...

I'll give you that. And it's extremely hard to time an airdodge because his b-air is long lasting. Luckily our b-air trades hit with his.

I've played the MU a lot, this guy's a very good player, and I'm pretty sure Kirby doesn't have an advantage. If I beat him with Kirby, it's because I played that much better than him...

I know you and Ling Ling are very good players. But I always felt Kirby had an easier time.

I can agree with 50:50 and it being stage dependent.

Oh, and about shield happy Dededes... just full hop b-air his shield until he either gets shield stabbed or rolls. Inhale is good too against shielding opponents.

 

[Kewkky]

But our attacks are faster. Also, don't forget who can b-air better

His bair eats everything we have, save upB's transcendent priority and downB's super armor.

However, we can follow up with a juggle from a f-throw/d-throw, while he cannot follow up his throws (other than tech chase with d-throw).

he can't follow up his throws, but our juggles amount to the damage he inflicts with a single grab. He could pummel us once and bthrow, and that's 20% per grab. 4-5 grabs (including everything else he might be doing in between) and we're at killing %... 4-5 juggles of ours (plus whatever else we sneak in between juggles) and he's only halfway to his killing %.

Granted, but we can survive until high percentages too. Once you're at 80~90%, he will try to u-tilt you for the kill. If you careful enough and don't get hit, you can live up to ~150% reliably. Chances are you'll die from a b-air instead of u-tilt. And a fresh f-smash can kill him considerabily early depending on DI and position.

He can dthrow and Buuman Trap us with a dsmash, while we have no choice but to take the hit because of how getup/rolling mechanics work. We have no such setup on him. He can also kill us with his fair, which has deceptive range (it reaching above him and still having full power), as well as his uair (if you don't SDI it properly).

Just spit him under the stage and stage spike/pressure him and punish his up-b.

But we can't get an inhale on him if he sees it coming. My friend never falls for inhales anymore. Whenever I recover, he just lets me recover, not to mention that his bair beats our inhale if he's below us diagonally... We just can't get an inhale on him.

We can always (try to) pressure his recovery. If he has to recover lower, his slow air speed makes him an easy target to d-air>footstool>rinse and repeat. He can harass us off-stage too, using the long lasting disjoints from his b-air.

Yeah, we can pressure his recovery and eventually kill him (that's the easiest way to kill him, send him offstage and force him to upB), but chances are, with the amount of % he has, he'll recover high.

I'll give you that. And it's extremely hard to time an airdodge because his b-air is long lasting. Luckily our b-air trades hit with his.

And unluckily, we die two times faster than he does, so trading hits is great for him, bad for us.

I know you and Ling Ling are very good players. But I always felt Kirby had an easier time.

I thought so too when i used to play RATED's DDD, but Ling's DDD is a higher level than his and Ling really knows what to do and when to do what... The match gets very frustrating, especially when you look at your % and realize that you're at 120% only because of his grabgame.

Oh, and about shield happy Dededes... just full hop b-air his shield until he either gets shield stabbed or rolls. Inhale is good too against shielding opponents.

That's what I do, and after one bair hit we can follow him around before he touches the floor. Once he's on the floor it's back to square one: a difficult MU which at high levels of play, the players adapt too fast and too much.

 

[~Shao~]

I know in theory it seems like D3 has the advantage, but you know, from my experience, it's not hard. Yeah, it can annoying/frustrating at times, but we can annoy him too. Granted, I haven't played top level D3's (Seibrik, Co18), my friend's D3 is pretty good. I guess I'll need to get ***** by a D3 to make me change my mind D:

 

[Kewkky]

I know in theory it seems like D3 has the advantage, but you know, from my experience, it's not hard. Yeah, it can annoying/frustrating at times, but we can annoy him too. Granted, I haven't played top level D3's (Seibrik, Co18), my friend's D3 is pretty good. I guess I'll need to get ***** by a D3 to make me change my mind D:

But I'm not speaking out of theory, I'm speaking from experience, and from what happens when I play this guy. As Kirby I beat him less than half the time, and with ZSS I've actually JV3-stocked this guy (I think I 3-stocked him a couple of times before, and have made him ragequit during the first stock of matches due to ZSS's awesomeness).

I'm just saying, DDD shouldn't be as Kirby's advantage, nor lower than 40:60.

 

[~Shao~]

I'm not saying you're speaking out of theory. I phrased it wrong.

What I'm trying to say is, when I look at the theory, yeah, I can see Kirby having a hard time. But when I go and play the match-up, it doesn't feel disadvantaged. Maybe it's my playstyle, dunno.