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Kirby: Official Character Discussion

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
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Unlimited Blade Works
Discussion for Kirby. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. Popular suggestions/values will be marked as such. Final values will be determined by popularity, so voice your opinion!

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:


Default Physics:
SH:
FH:
FF:
DGrav:
Grav:

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:


Anything else:
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
F smash is riduculous.

Kirby is an excellent character in every way and F smash is one of those moves that is just ridiculous. It needs a KB reduction or some winddown added to it.

I have been looking at it tonight and I know for a fact its too stupid good. Do some testing if you dont believe me. Kills really low and is an almost too safe move.

We have video footage of all this stuff.

Also, Kirby rapid jabs against a wall you can do them and the person cant avoid them or DI out. Other rapid jabs you can.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
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F smash is riduculous.

Kirby is an excellent character in every way and F smash is one of those moves that is just ridiculous. It needs a KB reduction or some winddown added to it.

I have been looking at it tonight and I know for a fact its too stupid good. Do some testing if you dont believe me. Kills really low and is an almost too safe move.

We have video footage of all this stuff.

Also, Kirby rapid jabs against a wall you can do them and the person cant avoid them or DI out. Other rapid jabs you can.
Cape, I did testing on this. You're wrong.

Does everyone just ignore me?

Compare this to Luigis FSmash. Kirbys FSmash can kill a Fox at the middle of Final Destination at 82% with no DI. Luigi can kill Fox from anywhere on Final Destination at any time at 82%. Luigis FSmash kills easier, has very long range (about 3/4 the range of Kirbys FSmash), it's safer on block, and it has faster start up and ending lag.

You're being biased, and opting to remove one of Kirbys only reliable methods of killing. Leaving Kirby alone, he's likely near high tier status, and his FSmash poses no threat.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Yeah, his Fsmash is fine, enough lag on the end, enough startup to shield it on impact. Sure, Dair to Fsmash is a good setup for KO but, Kirby's Fsmash by no means is like... insta-death.

If it becomes a problem, THAT'S when we should change it. Right now, it is not a problem.
 

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
The most frustrating thing about Kirby to me is that a Dair off the edge is almost a guaranteed kill for him. His edgeguard game is pretty ridiculous. But it's hard to say if he needs weakening.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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Messages
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Cleveland, Ohio
Mmmkay, I stand corrected on Kirby's Fsmash. Look at Cape's match below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UerDaTQz5ns&feature=channel_page

In roughly all of Lucas' stocks, Cape at least does two-four Fsmashes and they are all spaced correctly and look almost impossible for Lucas to stop (other than shielding, and shielding would put him at a disadvantage because Cape probably could do another Fsmash). It definitely looks like something has to be done to the Fsmash, probably Cape's suggestion, because this looks quite ridiculous.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
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Location
Orlando Florida
Mmmkay, I stand corrected on Kirby's Fsmash. Look at Cape's match below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UerDaTQz5ns&feature=channel_page
First of all, his DI was terrible. On ever stock no less.

The being said, Ulevo, what about the hitboxes of the two moves? Kirby's f-smash has a lot of priority and lunges him forward, while Luigi stands in place for his. Also remember that Kirby's f-smash stays out for a longer period of time.

Though I personally don't think Kirby's f-smash needs to be nerfed (that video just showed that Cape has decent spacing, and that his opponent has terrible DI on kill moves)
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
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First of all, his DI was terrible. On ever stock no less.

The being said, Ulevo, what about the hitboxes of the two moves? Kirby's f-smash has a lot of priority and lunges him forward, while Luigi stands in place for his. Also remember that Kirby's f-smash stays out for a longer period of time.

Though I personally don't think Kirby's f-smash needs to be nerfed (that video just showed that Cape has decent spacing, and that his opponent has terrible DI on kill moves)
When I mentioned that Luigi has about 3/4th of the hit box, that was including the distance Kirby covers with his hit box. Yes, the attack is meatier, but it isn't nearly as safe to use.

And pertaining to that video, I don't even know how it can be used as an example. It's rather bad. His opponent made no attempt to directionally influence anything, he threw out random DSmashes, short hop dairs, and other poorly spaced attacks all of which are laggy... Tried to space with nair and other such moves which have no priority at all. The Lucas was terrible.

Even if FSmash was a concern, this would not be a proper video example.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
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May 16, 2004
Messages
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Ulevo, you are trying to turn this **** into a personal fight. Grow up.

The only change Kirby needs on F smash is a wee bit more winddown lag as the forward smash technique works on most characters.

Its easy to space and very very hard to punish. Feels almost n64ish.

It doesnt matter the skill of the opponent as the situation he was put in by an F smash or two definetly shows that the move has an issue.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
It doesnt matter the skill of the opponent as the situation he was put in by an F smash or two definetly shows that the move has an issue.
I think the skill of the opponent does play a huge role in determining things. If he was better, maybe he could have survived or something like that. Its kinda like falco's shdl shine combos. Its very powerful and if you suck, it seems broken but if you know how to counter it, its not as bad.

I have no opinion on this move btw
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
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Dec 5, 2007
Messages
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Unlimited Blade Works
Ulevo, you are trying to turn this **** into a personal fight. Grow up. It doesnt matter the skill of the opponent as the situation he was put in by an F smash or two definetly shows that the move has an issue.
I'm not trying to make this personal. I am making an open statement that your opponent example is poor. If you take that personally, I suggest you ignore my posts.

And your opponent making poor decisions mid match and getting punished by nothing but a good move does not make the move in question at fault.
 

Team Giza

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
1,119
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San Diego, CA
"So what I'm thinking is a nerf in KB for the Fsmash, and in return we can buff his only basically useless move in Nair. First off, we can make it a GTFO move by speeding up the start-up from hitting frame 9 to frame 5, which should work perfect as AD is frame 4 so it wouldnt be the best option every time. In addition to this, add a slight KB buff to the move so its not pathetically weak, and change the angle from 20 to 35 and I think we're set." -storm92

Kirby's nair (unchanged):
hb1
050C500A 00169033
hb2
050A500A 00159033
hb3
0508500A 00169033
hb4
0506500A 00169033

If we do this I also propose we do some kind of fsmash nerf to make it less spammable or less powerful.

Kirby's fsmash
hb1
050F6226 0002602C
hb2
050D6019 0004902C
hb3
050D5E19 0004902C
 

Team Giza

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
1,119
Location
San Diego, CA
The nair is a buff. Quite a few people think Kirby's fsmash is a bit too powerful, even some Kirby mains (the idea was actually brought up by Storm too). Its not so much that we want to nerf him. I wouldn't mind giving him another buff outside of the nair to make up for an fsmash nerf. Storm just thinks we should work out some of the issues with Kirby.
 

Blank Mauser

Smash Champion
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Jul 16, 2008
Messages
2,904
Location
Iowa
Okay, well I've been against this change since day 1 but recent conversations have brought it back up and I figured now is as good a time as ever to speak out.

Kirby's Fsmash nerf is totally unwarranted and unjustified. First of all, theres nothing wrong with Kirby having a good move. Some say the reward is so much higher then the risk. That just makes it a good move, but is Kirby broken? I don't even believe Kirby to be top tier.

If the case was that the move was just illogical for its strength and people found it such an annoyance, why don't we also nerf Snake's Utilt or Luigi's Fsmash? When I get hit by Snake's Utilt I just want to slit wrists, and Luigi's Fsmash is very similar to Kirby's in speed and punishment.

Theres also keeping the whole philosophy of the move in tact. Does Fsmash really even kill much better then Bair now? Why not just use Bair and then edgeguard? Its much safer and easier to land then Fsmash, and now kills probably just as well considering edgeguarding. Fsmash is much harder to land on stage against experienced players, it needs to have a better reward for going for it. Bair works just as well on-stage and kills even better off-stage.

I've also heard that the move was nerfed in order to make Nair useful, a tradeoff. I would also find this quite an unappealing move. Nair is still almost never worth using even with the KB boost, and is no better or worst then before, just different. Plus, I hate the idea of tradeoffs in general. Nerfing a good move to make another one decent just leaves you two mediocre options. Who are we to decide what move should really be more useful on a character who needs little to no rebalancing in the first place? If there should be any tradeoffs, they should be within the move itself. For example, Sonic's Usmash spike was inherently not only a better purpose but just a better move, so we considered increasing the start up time. Though this probably won't happen, its a better solution then nerfing another move somewhere else to give him this invaluable tool, which would only be telling people that we want to encourage more Usmash and less of X move.

Kirby is not top tier, and Fsmash was fine before. Theres no reason to nerf it, leaving Bair to just do the job instead. The only argument I've heard against it is that its annoying and unpunishable, in which case I disagree that its unpunishable and it being an annoying move isn't grounds for nerfing. Kirby overall just didn't need nerfs period.
 

Blank Mauser

Smash Champion
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Iowa
Double post, but another argument was brought to my attention. Making the move more situational to add depth.

I find that watching out for Kirby's Fsmash when playing to be a part of his "depth." I don't see how nerfing one move and leaving him two mediocre options somehow adds "depth" to the character. This is just a shallow excuse to discourage the use of a move you dislike.

Furthermore, Kirby's hugest issue, which is range, only further cripples him now. Why discourage the use of a great move like Fsmash, and then go on to encourage more use of a move that has NO RANGE AT ALL. For a character like Kirby, this change is absolutely senseless and does nothing for his "depth." He already has bad range problems, so we want to rub it in Kirby mains' faces?

Nair is still a useless move. Apparently it sets up for techchases? Well, almost all of Kirby's aerials and throws set up for techchases. Nair isn't really an appealing option in this case is it?

Please, reconsider this change. I don't want my opinions to become null simply because I can't track down certain Kirby mains to agree. Though anyone who cares for Kirby at all should really read this, as a Kirby player myself I can't imagine how this would ever be a likable change.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Kirby's f-smash was too good, easy to land, and combo into for the ******** amount of KB it had. We may have overnerfed it before, but it certainly needed something adjusted on it. It was too easy to set up. Also, your opinion that Kirby isn't that great differs from the original BRoomers and I'm interested to see why. B-air alone can shut down a few characters. Combine that with his amazing recovery, gimp game, good kill potential, amazing combo game, I don't see how you could say he wasn't great? Not being as good as Fox or MK doesn't make him bad.

Kirby can still kill ok, just not as well. That's ok in my opinion cause he still has his redic gimp game, and can fall back on the F-smash at higher percents.
 

Blank Mauser

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Iowa
Kirby's f-smash was too good, easy to land, and combo into for the ******** amount of KB it had. We may have overnerfed it before, but it certainly needed something adjusted on it. It was too easy to set up. Also, your opinion that Kirby isn't that great differs from the original BRoomers and I'm interested to see why. B-air alone can shut down a few characters. Combine that with his amazing recovery, gimp game, good kill potential, amazing combo game, I don't see how you could say he wasn't great? Not being as good as Fox or MK doesn't make him bad.

Kirby can still kill ok, just not as well. That's ok in my opinion cause he still has his redic gimp game, and can fall back on the F-smash at higher percents.
Too easy to set up at kill percentages? I really doubt that. Comboing into it at kill percentages would be a result of bad DI or a techchase. Also, Bair would be just as easy to set up in the same situations and can lead to his "gimp game." Its a much safer move that takes less commitment, and now does almost just as well. That makes less sense then Kirby actually having a good Fsmash in the first place. Why doesn't he deserve it but Luigi deserves his? Why does Snake deserve utilt?

Bair alone definitely does not shut anyone down. It punishes, but doesn't shut them down. If Bair is shutting down anyone then that person doesn't know the Kirby matchup well enough. While Kirby can space his aerials in that manner, it really should only make a difference in a few key matchups. Other floaties like Peach for one just can't assume to outzone him, and it becomes a bait fest. In fact, thats how most characters deal with Kirby. They stop running into his WoP and punishment and bait Kirby instead, which puts him at a pretty bad disadvantage because Kirby's range is just plain lackluster. I'd say Kirby's range issues alone keep Kirby from being amazing.

Honestly, Kirby's edgeguarding game is only relevant because his recovery. His actual spike is very SDI'able, and I've had people Up-B me out of it plenty of times, reversing my spike into a stage spike for me.

Lets look at other characters similar to Kirby, that play on the same strengths. Marth, MK and G&W first. Some people say Kirby is a pretty decent MK counter, and I disagree completely. A lot of Metaknights may be caught off-gaurd by Kirby's quick aerials, but if Metaknight is the one doing the baiting then Kirby is going to have a really tough time approaching. The same is true with Marth and G&W. Now while someone like say Falcon might be lower in the tier list compared to where most would put Kirby, you have to admit momentum does give him the tools to approach these tactics. Same could go for anyone with projectiles or disjointedness (Aka a sword). Toon Link would even be a more appealing choice. When these characters are more appealing against top tiers where does that really put Kirby?

See, you have characters with quick aerials, are floaty, and combo more then decent enough to outclass Kirby, but many people put too much faith in Kirby's safeness and obviously his recovery is almost guaranteed. Thats hardly a difference balance wise though, how easy it is to recover with Kirby makes no difference so long as other recoveries just plain do their job, if they get back to the stage then its just as good. Same goes for anything defensive related in general, it just can't be truly compared because as long as it gets the job done then how can you really say one is better then the other? Only thing that truly makes sense to you is you have an easier time making use of one over another, which means nothing for actual character balance.

Characters like Wario, Luigi, Toon Link, ROB, also have similar strengths to Kirby but have arguably more useful qualities. These qualities may include projectiles or combos into kill moves. While Kirby may pass out some novel beatdowns when he does get in and shine, I feel these will be much more reliable picks at higher play. They have what Kirby lacks, the rest is just a matter of being able to capitalize, which is something every character can do now.

These are characters I believe to be above Kirby in the tier list in no real order. MK, Marth, G&W, Pikachu, Diddy, Sheik, Falco, Fox, Squirtle, ZSS, Luigi, Wario, ROB. Take that into account with Kirby's bad matchups against high tiers themselves and you could even count characters who just plain have a better time dealing with high tier play. These could count anyone with decent, approach-friendly or anti-camp projectiles, disjointedness, or momentum, which could then include Falcon, Mario, Toon Link, Olimar, Wolf, Ike, Lucario, Pit, Link, Samus, Charizard, Ivysaur, Yoshi, Snake and Sonic. Those are pretty surprising picks to be put above Kirby generally, but the actual matchups themselves would be better in practical play.

So then, why does Kirby not deserve a good Fsmash? Why do we insist on discouraging one of his best punishment and even anti-air options but encourage the use of a move that pretty much ignores his problem weakness altogether? Its like nerfing Metaknights Nair to give him an extra recovery move. It just doesn't make sense nor compliment the character in a constructive way.
 
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