Kirby General Discussion

[Jinjo64]

http://sdremix.com/characters/kirby/
Melee Kirby fans rejoice! They made Melee Kirby a really good character. I recommend you guys check it out as it's basically a more balanced melee where every high to low tier character is equipped with the proper tools to handle top-tiers while keeping their playstyles and movesets in tact so every character is fun to play as. Never thought i'd be able to see the day where a fox gets 4 stocked by a Kirby and know it can actually happen. They even went as far as adding more stages for us to play on and got rid of hazards like whispy's wind and ps1's transformations. Only real downside is how complicated it is to get the game on your wii or gamecube as opposed project m.

Edit: I'm new around here btw so sorry for the lack of an introduction(Not that i'm good at making them anyway) but i was so excited about it that i had to share it with you guys ASAP.

I love SD REMIX! Kirby and Pichu are soooooo awesome! Can't wait until it becomes more popular!

 

[kingPiano]

Well the SD remix treatment is kind of a double edged sword for me and Kirby. What's charming about Kirby in the original Melee is that he is so underrated and considered categorically low tier. In some weird masochistic way I think all of us that are serious about Kirby actually like the way he is in Vanilla Melee. But the really interesting thing about Melee Kirby is that he still has the combined tools to hang with the top and high tiers, this is mostly attributed to having some of the fastest and most versatile tilts in the game and a good fair and bair (as well as the unique swallow special).


I don't think SD will ever become popular because there is PM now which is much easier to access and also has a larger roster and better graphics. SD Remix has kind of missed it's window, if it ever had one.




.

 

[Jinjo64]

Can you explain further about competing with top tiers? The only ones I see kirby losing only 40-60 to is falcon, marth, and peach. Also you didn't answer the question of what you thought about pm kirby. I like melee kirby because when I get a win...I just feel so good, but his badness stops being funny if I play him too much. which is why I switched to doc and sheik.

 

[Noce]

Well the SD remix treatment is kind of a double edged sword for me and Kirby. What's charming about Kirby in the original Melee is that he is so underrated and considered categorically low tier. In some weird masochistic way I think all of us that are serious about Kirby actually like the way he is in Vanilla Melee. But the really interesting thing about Melee Kirby is that he still has the combined tools to hang with the top and high tiers, this is mostly attributed to having some of the fastest and most versatile tilts in the game and a good fair and bair (as well as the unique swallow special).
.

I agree 100%. I enjoy vanilla kirby. I understand he is "low tier" but he is fun to play and enjoy his playstyle and all his moves. Plus as amsa showed everyone with yoshi. Every character I think has potential of being crazy good.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

I agree 100%. I enjoy vanilla kirby. I understand he is "low tier" but he is fun to play and enjoy his playstyle and all his moves. Plus as amsa showed everyone with yoshi. Every character I think has potential of being crazy good.

At the same time yoshi has alot more going for him than kirby does. I feel like once kirby becomes relevant enough and people learn the match-up he's going to have an even harder time winning than he already does. I like playing as kirby alot but I also know that by choosing to play as kirby I'm probably never going to win a national. And before all the comments about me not being loyal start flooding in I'm not saying that I'd quit kirby to win tournaments I'm saying that by choosing to play as him then I won't be able to win many tournaments. Sd remix is a game where I feel like if I put enough time into ANY character then i could win every tournament I enter into. Melee is the exact opposite for me honestly.

 

[FrenkM0J0]

Ok so I think that except for 64 kirby can be regarded as a low tier (with potential). In 64, he's obviously a really good character, in melee he has some really annoying flaws that you can overcome with creative play, in brawl I think his movement is a bit off but for the rest I think he's ok (not more than that, just ok), honestly I don't really know about PM, just that chu dat does some cool stuff with him. Never played sm4sh.

 

[Jinjo64]

Ok so I think that except for 64 kirby can be regarded as a low tier (with potential). In 64, he's obviously a really good character, in melee he has some really annoying flaws that you can overcome with creative play, in brawl I think his movement is a bit off but for the rest I think he's ok (not more than that, just ok), honestly I don't really know about PM, just that chu dat does some cool stuff with him. Never played sm4sh.

Thanks for the response. Sadly in version 3.5(Came out in Nov). Most Kirbies such as chudat quit. Making me wonder if PM's approach to Kirby was the right one. I personally would like melee kirby with a improved wavedash and air speed. Also for his grabs to be corrected. Then I would be fine.

 

[PK Illuminati]

Forgot to post about this but there is a ''new'' Ness/Kirby tech. It involves Ness' YYG and needing Kirby to make a jacket. I already posted in the main Kirby forum.

Vid: https://youtu.be/fj-DhfjHew8?t=2m36s

 

[FrenkM0J0]

Forgot to post about this but there is a ''new'' Ness/Kirby tech. It involves Ness' YYG and needing Kirby to make a jacket. I already posted in the main Kirby forum.

Vid: https://youtu.be/fj-DhfjHew8?t=2m36s

O wow that's pretty interesting, too bad the kirby vs ness MU is rarely played...

 

[FrenkM0J0]

Thanks for the response. Sadly in version 3.5(Came out in Nov). Most Kirbies such as chudat quit. Making me wonder if PM's approach to Kirby was the right one. I personally would like melee kirby with a improved wavedash and air speed. Also for his grabs to be corrected. Then I would be fine.

Yeah I totally agree with you. What is new with 3.5 though?

 

[Jinjo64]

Yeah I totally agree with you. What is new with 3.5 though?

3.5 kirby? or 3.5 in general?
Kirby was nerfed with added endland to a lot of moves and swallow nerfed.

3.5 was basically a huge nerf patch for recoveries and toxic gameplay strategy. such as marios fireballs.

 

[PK Illuminati]

3.5 kirby? or 3.5 in general?
Kirby was nerfed with added endland to a lot of moves and swallow nerfed.

3.5 was basically a huge nerf patch for recoveries and toxic gameplay strategy. such as marios fireballs.

This is the main reason why I can't keep up with Smash 4 or PM. So many things change and its so bad because you've already adjusted your gameplay style around it. That's a whole different convo tho.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

This is the main reason why I can't keep up with Smash 4 or PM. So many things change and its so bad because you've already adjusted your gameplay style around it. That's a whole different convo tho.

Well at least the Smash 4 balance patches aren't anywhere near as significant or frequent as the PM ones are. I honestly think that Smash 4's balance patches aren't even really too noticeable most of the time considering that most of the changes are either really out of left field or too irrelevant to how the character is played or designed to make a big enough impact(Only examples of that would be diddy's u-air and f-air knockback being reduced significantly with d-throw knockback being increased so that you can't HOO-HAH more than once even with no DI), Sheik's b-air getting reduced knockback and sonic's b-throw not killing anymore. As for PM well the only thing that people can really do about it is learn to work with the changes our characters got and make the most of it. I admit i'm not really a fan of how PM handles balancing sometimes but at least they actively follow the competitive community and uses the data of characters from high level tournaments to figure out what needs to be fixed as opposed to Smash 4 that probably only uses random replays on FG to decide that kind of stuff.

 

[PK Illuminati]

Well at least the Smash 4 balance patches aren't anywhere near as significant or frequent as the PM ones are. I honestly think that Smash 4's balance patches aren't even really too noticeable most of the time considering that most of the changes are either really out of left field or too irrelevant to how the character is played or designed to make a big enough impact(Only examples of that would be diddy's u-air and f-air knockback being reduced significantly with d-throw knockback being increased so that you can't HOO-HAH more than once even with no DI), Sheik's b-air getting reduced knockback and sonic's b-throw not killing anymore. As for PM well the only thing that people can really do about it is learn to work with the changes our characters got and make the most of it. I admit i'm not really a fan of how PM handles balancing sometimes but at least they actively follow the competitive community and uses the data of characters from high level tournaments to figure out what needs to be fixed as opposed to Smash 4 that probably only uses random replays on FG to decide that kind of stuff.

Each to their own I guess.
I'm one of those players who likes to analyze data and study hitboxes, speed variables, weight, all that good stuff.
So it gets annoying kinda.

 

[Jinjo64]

Does anyone have the frame data or gif of the 4th hitbox of fair? I've heard of it, but can't find it.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

Each to their own I guess.
I'm one of those players who likes to analyze data and study hitboxes, speed variables, weight, all that good stuff.
So it gets annoying kinda.

I understand where your hate comes from and respect your opinion equally. I guess the patches just don't bother me like some people.

 

[kingPiano]

Does anyone have the frame data or gif of the 4th hitbox of fair? I've heard of it, but can't find it.

I cannot either but I have found the data for it I think, I've been digging for it and compiling metrics and it seems to line up

The top two rows are for the two floor hitboxes I believe

The bottom rows are the 6 different hitboxes of the aerial Fair kicks


You will notice the -4 Z Cartesian coordinate on the second "floor" hitbox, meaning it's lower than Kirby's center mass and therefore embedded in the floor partially (allowing it to have excellent shield stab properties). It seems the hitboxes are the size of the average volume (area) between each of the 2 unique Fair kick hitboxes, but has a Weight dependent KB aspect that makes it low scaling (very similar to jab) and it it's able to start combos into very high percents since it pops them up.

 

[ChivalRuse]

That chart is gibberish to me. I need to see the hitbox

 

[Kirbymeister]

http://sdremix.com/characters/kirby/
Melee Kirby fans rejoice! They made Melee Kirby a really good character. I recommend you guys check it out as it's basically a more balanced melee where every high to low tier character is equipped with the proper tools to handle top-tiers while keeping their playstyles and movesets in tact so every character is fun to play as.

I know I'm late for this, but thank you so, so much for posting that link!
just started playing it, my first thought was "huh. this doesn't feel too different from Melee."
my second thought, upon killing Roy in 6 attacks, was "well....I guess I was wrong!"
thanks!

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

I know I'm late for this, but thank you so, so much for posting that link!
just started playing it, my first thought was "huh. this doesn't feel too different from Melee."
my second thought, upon killing Roy in 6 attacks, was "well....I guess I was wrong!"
thanks!

No problem! It was my pleasure. Also yeah I love that Kirby kills pretty good in that game. Especially hammer though since it kiils fox at like 80% it's amazing.

 

[VodkaHaze]

http://sdremix.com/characters/kirby/
Melee Kirby fans rejoice! They made Melee Kirby a really good character. I recommend you guys check it out as it's basically a more balanced melee where every high to low tier character is equipped with the proper tools to handle top-tiers while keeping their playstyles and movesets in tact so every character is fun to play as. Never thought i'd be able to see the day where a fox gets 4 stocked by a Kirby and know it can actually happen. They even went as far as adding more stages for us to play on and got rid of hazards like whispy's wind and ps1's transformations. Only real downside is how complicated it is to get the game on your wii or gamecube as opposed project m.

Edit: I'm new around here btw so sorry for the lack of an introduction(Not that i'm good at making them anyway) but i was so excited about it that i had to share it with you guys ASAP.

Sounds awesome. Love to give this a shot, since vanilla Kirby is criminally bad. I get Sakurai was trying to balance him, but how could he make his own character this horrendous?

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

Sounds awesome. Love to give this a shot, since vanilla Kirby is criminally bad. I get Sakurai was trying to balance him, but how could he make his own character this horrendous?

Honestly i don't think sakurai even knows how to balance his own games. Look at smash 4 kirby for example, He has even less knockback on his alot of his moves, His feet are smaller which gives him less range, and his grab ranged got reduced. All we have to compensate for is a new side-b that isn't even that useful and faster run speed? OK thanks, I guess.

 

[Kirbymeister]

Honestly i don't think sakurai even knows how to balance his own games. Look at smash 4 kirby for example, He has even less knockback on his alot of his moves, His feet are smaller which gives him less range, and his grab ranged got reduced. All we have to compensate for is a new side-b that isn't even that useful and faster run speed? OK thanks, I guess.

well, you'd be surprised how many buffs Kirby got in SSB4.
though most are pretty minor, the most noticeable to me are:

1) Kirby's aerial Stone became stronger, and can now break shields,
2) Inhale does more damage. (although this comes at a cost: Star spit now does less!)
3) Kirby's B-throw is stronger, and can be cancelled with an aerial.

(on an unrelated note, I just played SD Remix and had a pretty cool moment:
in Adventure mode, the Kirby Team showed up and the first opponent had Link's arrows. naturally, I copied him...and then spent the rest of the level casually sniping off every other Kirby, whilst the crowd cheered me on!)

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

well, you'd be surprised how many buffs Kirby got in SSB4.
though most are pretty minor, the most noticeable to me are:

1) Kirby's aerial Stone became stronger, and can now break shields,
2) Inhale does more damage. (although this comes at a cost: Star spit now does less!)
3) Kirby's B-throw is stronger, and can be cancelled with an aerial.

(on an unrelated note, I just played SD Remix and had a pretty cool moment:
in Adventure mode, the Kirby Team showed up and the first opponent had Link's arrows. naturally, I copied him...and then spent the rest of the level casually sniping off every other Kirby, whilst the crowd cheered me on!)

While i'm happy with SOME of the buffs(Kirby's star shot doing less and copy doing more doesn't make any sense, why couldn't they both just do 10?) I still don't think it justifies all the nerfs he got. XD Yeah it's suprising how strong link's arrows are. This game needs it's own forum section like PM.

 

[Kirbymeister]

While I'm happy with SOME of the buffs(Kirby's star shot doing less and copy doing more doesn't make any sense, why couldn't they both just do 10?) I still don't think it justifies all the nerfs he got. XD Yeah it's surprising how strong link's arrows are. This game needs it's own forum section like PM.

makes sense. Nintendo does seem to be attempting to remove the nerfs, though:
in almost every Smash 4 update, Kirby's been buffed. it's quite a nice touch, if you ask me.
and yes, SD Remix by far deserves its own spot on smashboards, or at least a discussion thread.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Can we get this thread back on track?

I want to talk about Kirby's utilt in some depth. The move has a great hitbox, combos into uair and bair (at high percents even, against fast fallers), and lasts 23 frames. Nobody ever talks about this. 23 frames is only 3 frames shorter than Marth's d-tilt WITH IASA used to cancel the end. Marth's d-tilt is one of the best pokes in the game, and it doesn't even truly combo into anything.

Kirby has a reasonably long and fast wavedash, which makes wavedashing backward toward your opponent into u-tilt really good. You can also wavedash into bair, a move that you want to be using anyway.

Additionally, I think that Kirby's uthrow needs to be used a lot more than it currently is. Most Kirby players that I've seen use d-throw almost exclusively, and the occasional b-throw to uair DI trick. But there's a lot to be said for uthrow, being unbreakable (unlike b-throw and f-throw), doing the MOST damage out of his throws (10%) and putting floaties in a terrible position above you, and giving you more frame advantage than dthrow against fast fallers. While fast fallers can DI away from it and escape that way, you don't really want to tech chase them in the same way every time. So I think mixing up dthrow and uthrow is a good way to throw off their defense, and confuse them.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

@ Kirbymeister that profile pic is adorable.

 

[PK Illuminati]

makes sense. Nintendo does seem to be attempting to remove the nerfs, though:
in almost every Smash 4 update, Kirby's been buffed. it's quite a nice touch, if you ask me.
and yes, SD Remix by far deserves its own spot on smashboards, or at least a discussion thread.

SD Remix is a dumb idea in the first place

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

SD Remix is a dumb idea in the first place

I wasn't aware that a mod with the intent to fix melee's only problem competitively by giving every character a chance to win a tournament a dumb idea. By that logic I'm guessing you don't like smash 4 or project m much either huh?

 

[PK Illuminati]

I wasn't aware that a mod with the intent to fix melee's only problem competitively by giving every character a chance to win a tournament a dumb idea. By that logic I'm guessing you don't like smash 4 or project m much either huh?

I love Project M, dislike Smash 4 competitively, although fun ass game.

Its a very bad idea. Getting used to low tiers on SD remix will **** up your game in the real Melee which is the game actually played at tournaments.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Can we talk about Kirby instead of other games now?

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

I love Project M, dislike Smash 4 competitively, although fun *** game.

Its a very bad idea. Getting used to low tiers on SD remix will **** up your game in the real Melee which is the game actually played at tournaments.

I suppose you have a point there. But It's not like the game doesn't have a competitive scene, it's just really small compared to melee.

Can we talk about Kirby instead of other games now?

Sorry about that.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I find that nair has some combo uses on fast fallers. It's very DI- and percent-specific, but I believe it's not a totally useless move as people have thought in the past.

Fair is a move that I think is still not fully developed in its capabilities. It requires a lot of precision and smarts to use it correctly. It's such a unique move, that it's hard to know what to do with it.

 

[Triple R]

On that note. I've been messing with utilt into 2 hit fairs into whatever. Utilt, 2 hit fair, dsmash can actually be a true combo that will kill someone by the ledge. Seems to work due to people getting DI mixed up expecting an utilt bair/uair.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sounds pretty good. I've been using u-tilt > shffl nair > f-tilt at low percents, but I haven't experimented that much with 2 hit fair. It's kind of hard to get the 2 hit fair on fast fallers for obvious reasons.

 

[Dodger]

Up throw is easily Kirby's best throw. A LOT of characters actually beat down throw with fast moves after the final stomp pops them up but before Kirby can react. nair kikcs (Like Mario Bros. Samus and Shiek,)* Marth can Up B safely out of it (Although my experience is that most Marths don't actually know this) and Puff can straight up rest you out of it (Although with puff at high percents, Kirby can get the shield up which can be a useful mind game).

But considering how up throw doesn't lead in to very much except for maybe an uair on non-DIing fast fallers and an aerial hammer on non DIing floaties, I'm starting to think that just straight up pummeling may be his BEST option after grabs.

*Not sure if the Space Animals can even though they have nair kicks. I don't think I've seen it but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Uthrow leads to a positional advantage vs floaties. (They have to land, and you can usually dash dance regrab their landing or uair/bair/utilt them from below). On fast fallers if they DI away, you can chase them, and while you don't have time to get guaranteed follow ups, you are put in a mixup sort of situation with an advantage.

 

[Malkasaur]

Up throw is easily Kirby's best throw. A LOT of characters actually beat down throw with fast moves after the final stomp pops them up but before Kirby can react. nair kikcs (Like Mario Bros. Samus and Shiek,)* Marth can Up B safely out of it (Although my experience is that most Marths don't actually know this) and Puff can straight up rest you out of it (Although with puff at high percents, Kirby can get the shield up which can be a useful mind game).

But considering how up throw doesn't lead in to very much except for maybe an uair on non-DIing fast fallers and an aerial hammer on non DIing floaties, I'm starting to think that just straight up pummeling may be his BEST option after grabs.

*Not sure if the Space Animals can even though they have nair kicks. I don't think I've seen it but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

I found out about resting out of down throw the hard way Sucks that every single one of Kirby's throws is broken. Even Up Throw, as it gets rid of all of your jumps. I use Down Throw most of the time and pray that my opponent doesn't know about it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Just because of the novelty factor, I think mixing up d-throw and u-throw can confuse people and their DI. Now, if they always just DI away, we will have to be very fast to catch them. But it can be done.

 

[FrenkM0J0]

I love how active this forum is again. Take that, pichu boards!!!