King Koopa's New Digs 3.0 Edition

[Chaos_Blasta]

you realize in 2.6 you could jump out of bair like halfway through the animation while his back was still out there right. 3.0 restored its melee gimping while also making its iasa be where it was originally meant to be

"you realize in 2.6 you could jump out of bair like halfway through the animation while his back was still out there right."

Requesting Marth d-tilt to have modified IASA to match the animation.

"3.0 restored its melee gimping"

What? As far as the changelist states, nothing was changed about Bair except the IASA.

" also making its iasa be where it was originally meant to be"

Are you implying that you accidentally added (If i am not mistaken) 12 frames to Bowser's Bair IASA, then reverted it exactly to how it was in Melee, and then imply that this was how it was always meant to be? even though this was a change from 2.0 all the way through 2.6b (I think)? this change just screams "Because Melee", quite awful considering how bad Bowser was in Melee.

 

[Jacob29]

I do find it kinda funny how the PM Bowser video says how bad he was in the other games.

Now suddenly it's 'reverted to melee' this, reverted to melee that.

I thought the idea was that the low tiers WEREN'T going to be like Melee?

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Could you really jump out of it halfway through? Damn. I never got to go up against that, but it sounds pretty ridiculous.

If i remember the data i got off Brawlbox correctly.. Bowser's Bair has 50 frames of endlag. In 2.6b, the IASA was at frame 37-38 or so. Not quite halfway through, but the change was very noticeable.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

If i remember the data i got off Brawlbox correctly.. Bowser's Bair has 50 frames of endlag. In 2.6b, the IASA was at frame 37-38 or so. Not quite halfway through, but the change was very noticeable.

Most of the time I fight against Bowser, my opponent (Well the one that actually uses Bowser) likes to stick to the ground, favoring dtilt and didn't use bair very much. I'm partially happy I never had to see a Bowser who could bair, hit, and jump out of it to possibly follow up with something else.

 

[standardtoaster]

I do find it kinda funny how the PM Bowser video says how bad he was in the other games.

Now suddenly it's 'reverted to melee' this, reverted to melee that.

I thought the idea was that the low tiers WEREN'T going to be like Melee?

Just because a character was bad in melee does not mean an attribute of a certain move wasn't good.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Absolutely. Melee's Bair endlag is pretty bad however, and limits bowser's options with it quite a bit.

 

[GeZ]

Just because a character was bad in melee does not mean an attribute of a certain move wasn't good.

But the move was made worse now. We're taking buffed elements of the move and removing them to make it more like melee, so even if it was good in melee, it's worse than it was in P:M, which does translate to "because melee". I'm not trying to antagonize but what your saying isn't different from how it's been described.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Also, it's cause Bowser is much better off in the ground most of the time. But the previous endlag allowed you to full hop bair and be able to waveland onstage, or short hop bair from a platform and then waveland on the stage. Just to mention some on-stage uses for it.

 

[MurderClauz]

Making your posts slightly more grammatically correct doesn't change the fact that you've yet to actually contribute to this discussion. Also what is cmart? Chopped liver? I'm pretty sure he's the one who designed Bowser, so he probably knows the most about the character and he's already shared his thoughts. Plus Overswarm is another high level Bowser player, but you seem to have overlooked that fact because *gasp* his opinion is different from yours.

Have u read any of my previous posts.. i said i agree with cmart on everything he said. As for ur comment about Oversmarm.. lol i just said that if gimpy or kirk had a differing opinion i would still disagree with them. So im not overlooking his posts at all in fact im straight up disagreeing with him.

But the pro's don't always have the best information or most valid opinions just by virtue of being a pro. (see m2k on sheik)
Also I don't agree with your comments on tech skill based on necessity being a good thing. All fighting games are cerebral, so from that perspective, the tech skill is all that keeps the best minds from being the best, as it should be. Mango, the almighty lord of Melee, was as he was because of his ability to see and use moves and tools in unorthodox ways. Or, to rephrase that, he was good at rethinking things that were considered rote, and he excelled for that. That's what the smash series, and fighting games in general, are about.

I'm not arguing that mango isn't one of the best if not the best player melee has. And i didn't say id take a pros opinion as the be all end all. I'm simply saying their opinions hold more weight because they are the ones at this point in time who are playing at the highest level.

And i have contributed I've said i feel that the up b change was good my reasons u can go back and read if ud like. Also i talked about the Bair. IMO it was ridiculous the way it was now its better. It has slightly less deadliness, it takes more skill to properly time. Instead of being able to do 2 bairs off stage you now need to time one good one.

 

[deadjames]

Have u read any of my previous posts.. i said i agree with cmart on everything he said. As for ur comment about Oversmarm.. lol i just said that if gimpy or kirk had a differing opinion i would still disagree with them. So im not overlooking his posts at all in fact im straight up disagreeing with him.



I'm not arguing that mango isn't one of the best if not the best player melee has. And i didn't say id take a pros opinion as the be all end all. I'm simply saying their opinions hold more weight because they are the ones at this point in time who are playing at the highest level.

And i have contributed I've said i feel that the up b change was good my reasons u can go back and read if ud like. Also i talked about the Bair. IMO it was ridiculous the way it was now its better. It has slightly less deadliness, it takes more skill to properly time. Instead of being able to do 2 bairs off stage you now need to time one good one.

I did read your previous posts and not a single one of them had anything compelling not only did you put down everyone who disagrees with your opinion, but you've still yet to give any substantial reasons for why you think the changes are moving Bowser in the right direction, and no "I think it's good because games should be technical" is not a valid reason, if that's your opinion that's fine, but you've yet to contribute anything to the discussion of how this affects Bowser as a character.

 

[666blaziken]

ok, so for those of you who are upset about the whirling fortress, it isn't that hard to do. I just figured out how to do it. Let's say you are on final destination near the right part of the ledge and of course, you want to grab the ledge using the whirling fortress. In 2.6, it didn't matter what direction you faced, you could grab the ledge. In 3.0, you can ONLY grab the ledge if you are facing the ledge (in this case, the right side) before doing it, and flicking the controller left as you go off the stage. It is easy to do, you just can't do it while facing away from the ledge before doing the WF.

 

[deadjames]

ok, so for those of you who are upset about the whirling fortress, it isn't that hard to do. I just figured out how to do it. Let's say you are on final destination near the right part of the ledge and of course, you want to grab the ledge using the whirling fortress. In 2.6, it didn't matter what direction you faced, you could grab the ledge. In 3.0, you can ONLY grab the ledge if you are facing the ledge (in this case, the right side) before doing it, and flicking the controller left as you go off the stage. It is easy to do, you just can't do it while facing away from the ledge before doing the WF.

That's actually not true, you can in fact grab the ledge while facing away from it still in 3.0, it's just exponentially difficult depending on how far away from the ledge you are.

 

[666blaziken]

That's actually not true, you can in fact grab the ledge while facing away from it still in 3.0, it's just exponentially difficult depending on how far away from the ledge you are.

ok, I didn't know, I am basing this off personal experience. It is easier to grab the ledge while facing it (to me). Thanks for the information.

 

[MurderClauz]

I did read your previous posts and not a single one of them had anything compelling not only did you put down everyone who disagrees with your opinion, but you've still yet to give any substantial reasons for why you think the changes are moving Bowser in the right direction, and no "I think it's good because games should be technical" is not a valid reason, if that's your opinion that's fine, but you've yet to contribute anything to the discussion of how this affects Bowser as a character.

I think bowser should be more technical and more combo oriented rather then just using spacing to get kills. Thats the direction i would like to see all characters move in. Any reason i have is a valid reason, who are u to tell me whats a good reason and whats not. I'm not saying u cant think the way u do i just think its stupid hence the arguing.

lol w.e why am i even arguing with u ur clearly just butt hurt ignoring all my posts. Ill just wait for kirk and gimpy. Good day sir.

 

[GeZ]

I think bowser should be more technical and more combo oriented rather then just using spacing to get kills. Thats the direction i would like to see all characters move in. Any reason i have is a valid reason, who are u to tell me whats a good reason and whats not. I'm not saying u cant think the way u do i just think its stupid hence the arguing.

lol w.e why am i even arguing with u ur clearly just butt hurt ignoring all my posts. Ill just wait for kirk and gimpy. Good day sir.

It's just because your posts seem to be gramatically poor reiterations of themselves without any additions of clarity each time. The thing with wondering why you're waiting for Kirk or Gimpyfish is that, from your description, it won't affect you at all. You're curious of their opinions, but as you've said, if they differ from yours you'll disagree. So what will hearing their opinions solve? Do you think it'll validate your argument?

In relation to the beginning of your post, I don't think all characters should be more technical and combo oriented as it's not in the nature of a lot of the cast to be more combo oriented, and being more technical for the sake of being more technical is bad game design, as it's actively accomplishing nothing.

 

[MurderClauz]

It accomplishes nothing to you, to me it makes the game more interesting. And i can be curious of a persons opinions regardless of validating my own. I have already formulated my own opinions about the changes and so have you. With us technicality as a whole is the argument, which i don't care to have. What i said is more of a statement. Its like saying Hey i have no muscles and cant wrestle for ****.. well don't cry about the sport requiring you to be strong DO something about it and deal. I never played brawl cuz i didnt like the games lack of tech skill, noones forcing anyone to play PM.

 

[GeZ]

But no ones been talking about the difficulty of the tech this whole thread. That's never been the point. I don't think this conversation is progressing because you keep doubling back on that. No ones complaining of the difficulty, it's the reason behind the change.

 

[MurderClauz]

The only reason i even posted a comment was because of someone saying the tech aspect of bowsers up b was unfair and that it should be 100 percent everytime and that it was arbitrary to change because when u master the skill it will be the same as being 100 percent. I then provided an example of how thats not true because now you must slow yourself down and that extra second will prevent bowsers from relying on his up b as a gaurenteed safety net.

I would love to talk about other things like the back air and why anyone thinks its a good idea to have bowser have a double back air. Just one back air and a good ledgegaurd is a death for almost any character. So giving him two is OP to me. Plus having the move timing be harder to execute, to me it will be more impressive to see it done at the perfect time.

And correct me if im wrong here but someone mentioned that they slowed the up b as well essentially giving it less priority? that i dont agree with if its true. I do think his up b should be a reliable way of moving around the stage, but making it punishable if mistimed which it was before.

 

[cmart]

No ones complaining of the difficulty, it's the reason behind the change.

This is really why I haven't said more in this discussion. I'm not someone who believes there's anything to be had from an argument of opposed ideals. Especially one that has gotten so personal. Barely anyone has actually given real feedback on what this change is like ingame, other than that it's different, it's worse, and they don't like it. Conflating a minor change in difficulty into a crusade against technical barriers is absurd, and closes off avenues to discuss the actual change - which to remind everyone was to make fortress hogging dependent on in-game factors like momentum, physics, and player input. This isn't actually pressing additional buttons, as Luigi's misfire change admittedly is, but being aware of and using game mechanics to your advantage. It's also still an easy tech that at most demands knowledge and attention from the player. It's sad that since there was an artificial handicap that players have gotten used to, they're unwilling to accept a more natural method, but that's the power of inertia and precedent. I can guarantee that if Bowser had debuted with this method of fortress hogging, complaints would be nonexistent.

Ah well

 

[GeZ]

Well running with that this won't be changed because you don't believe in arguments on opposed ideals, I think that the change in game is frustrating but manageable. The slower speed with which I have to approach the ledge hasn't changed the outcome of the exchange much. I was miffed that I couldn't comfortably make one ledge and side of the stage my ***** by Fortressing to the ledge, attacking up from the ledge, and then Fortressing back, but that I'll get more comfortable with with time.

Is there any basis to peoples saying it has less priority? I've heard a few people gripe about that but I have yet to really experience anything that would hint at that. New tipper Fair was weird to get used to, but pretty sweet now. It was a good idea too, as it'll help reinforce Bowser players reliance on good spacing. Also dry Bowser is too stronk. Easily one of the coolest alternates.

Also, if you're going to omit your own input from a discussion because you don't believe, or agree with that discussion's flow, just let us know that we're not doing anything before we type out 3 pages of opposing ideals. It'll let us focus on the issue faster and better understand what subjects the PMBR is stubborn about.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

This is really why I haven't said more in this discussion. I'm not someone who believes there's anything to be had from an argument of opposed ideals. Especially one that has gotten so personal. Barely anyone has actually given real feedback on what this change is like ingame, other than that it's different, it's worse, and they don't like it. Conflating a minor change in difficulty into a crusade against technical barriers is absurd, and closes off avenues to discuss the actual change - which to remind everyone was to make fortress hogging dependent on in-game factors like momentum, physics, and player input. This isn't actually pressing additional buttons, as Luigi's misfire change admittedly is, but being aware of and using game mechanics to your advantage. It's also still an easy tech that at most demands knowledge and attention from the player. It's sad that since there was an artificial handicap that players have gotten used to, they're unwilling to accept a more natural method, but that's the power of inertia and precedent. I can guarantee that if Bowser had debuted with this method of fortress hogging, complaints would be nonexistent.

Ah well

I feel like i've been talking some valid points in respect to this change. Like how the punishment for missing a Fortress Hog is way too severe for what it should be doing (and specially in a real match when the situation really calls for it), or how it decreases the overall speed at which you can get to the ledge, not to mention the unnecesary increased difficulty, which i haven't found much of a reason for other than "It should be harder" or "It should have never been so easy". It's not like any Bowser main that respects him/herself won't adapt to such a change.. but it's the severe unnecesity of it that pisses most people off, the way i see it.

However, i do agree with you on what you first said: there is absolutely no point in keeping up such a discussion if both sides are unwilling to change their PoVs on the subject. It's just hurling words and making posts over and over without any side truly getting anywhere. There is something to be gained from an argument sometimes though, and i felt like this could have been the case. I'm unpleased with certain arguments from both sides but i think the point of this whole discussion has been pushed through.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i was going to post something but this whole thread is ridiculous

everyone in here is thinking about the fortresshog thing wrong

bowser did not have this tool taken away

he was simply not given this extra tool.

you've been playing a demo. nothing is set.

just as in another version bowser could have a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MOVESET or weight or mobility or anything at all.

it was not changed because it was "too easy".

it was not changed because bowser is "too good".

it was changed becasue it is a tool that bowser did not need and a tool that did not help his overall character design.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Agreed.

That said, Gimpy, you've stated elsewhere that you think Bowser is the worst character in PM at a very high level. Is this an opinion shared by much of the PMBR, and if so, is that considered 'okay' considering his strength at lower levels - or is something planned to help him keep up a bit?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i can't speak for what exactly is planned - bowser is a tricky character. he's hard to balance without redesigning him or making him really stupid (see 2.1, for example). His knockback was WAYYYY too strong and crazy so every hit was incredible... but none of his weaknesses were addressed. so he'd destroy the good and worse players, but he'd get WRECKED by the very good players.

Now we have at least a better dash attack and a better dash grab, aka a VERY simple mixup to get in. bowser just isn't mobile though, that's the big problem. if you aren't approaching bowser he is losing the match. he has no approach.

but how do you circumvent that without changing the core of the character? you make him too fast and you have to make him significantly weaker or have significantly less range in order to make him balanced, but you can't keep him slow or he'll just get beat up by top level players who know the matchup...

i'm being extreme, of course, this game is very well balanced and even with him being a bottom 5 character he's still very viable and a huge tournament threat.

bowser is tricky. He is so one dimensional and so... "basic"... that it's just tough to figure out how to best approach balancing him.

 

[GeZ]

i was going to post something but this whole thread is ridiculous

everyone in here is thinking about the fortresshog thing wrong

bowser did not have this tool taken away

he was simply not given this extra tool.

you've been playing a demo. nothing is set.

just as in another version bowser could have a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MOVESET or weight or mobility or anything at all.

it was not changed because it was "too easy".

it was not changed because bowser is "too good".

it was changed becasue it is a tool that bowser did not need and a tool that did not help his overall character design.

I'd like to submit that this thread is less ridiculous than you say, but I already understand that this is an issue the back room won't budge on, so I'll just iron out that no one said he was given a tool or had a tool taken away, we're well aware that this is an altered tool, just as we are well aware that we've been playing a demo. On the flip side of that, we're posting here to give our feedback of the demo we've played. Everything may be subject to change, but I think it's safe to assume Bowser won't receive a complete overhaul, so we can discuss things with some certainty that not everything will change so drastically out from under us. If that's not the case, and Bowser is on the way to a hover, jigglypuff weight, and helm breaker, let me know so I can be the first to sit on my hands and blow spit bubbles instead of posting uselessly here. People arguing against Fortress Hogging's change based upon ease from a design standpoint are replying to cmart's comment stating literally just that. Saying it wasn't helping his design is borderline prolific. As it stands most obviously or noticeably, it's a change of difficulty. It's very difficult to pin down the effects of difficulty on a character's design, which is why I have trouble taking that comment in stride.

But, again, I know that the back room isn't looking to change this, or, it would seem, hear any input but its own on the matter, and as vexing as it may be it's more and more seemingly absolute. So I would implore you guys, just say what you're going to say about the changes frankly and without an air of discussion if you're not willing to discuss it. It'll save pages of futile posting and let us posters understand how you'd like to drive the discussion instead of being vexed by your delivering of opinions 'guised as empirical facts.

I don't mean this to sound jagged or standoffish, I just think it's annoying that the back roomers (in this thread at least) are so ready to chide and present things in a way that would make the rest of the thread seem full of nonsense.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

the biggest change to the fortress hogging ability wasn't specifically to make it easier, but to slow it down. In almost every case it either slows it down, or it makes it not worth the risk to attempt to do an incredibly fast fortress hog. Being able to do (for example) back throw -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack endlessly against a falco for example is in very poor design.

making an INCREDIBLY difficult move to punish that starts up invincible and has a massive hitbox that you can do out of shield AND IS MOBILE ALREADY even HARDER to punish by making it have an autopilot edgehog functionality is also very poor design.

there is a lot of bowser that is poorly designed, he is just SO... extreme! Even with his massive improvements. The character's core is basically a defensive character that is very slow but hits very hard. it's REALLY difficult to maintain that sort of a playstyle and keep it relevant to high level play. Bowser isn't "done" - there is still stuff being worked on constantly. He's just REALLY tricky. We've had SO MANY different crazy builds for bowser that just haven't worked out and haven't been ready to release.

The back room isn't intentionally keeping secrets, and we read feedback - this just really is not a tool that bowser needed or helped with his weaknesses (which are a MUCH higher priority), so it was not given to him.

 

[Jacob29]

Would it not have been possible to fix those things without simply adding

Failure = an SD

?

 

[TTTTTsd]

And how would there be any other failure option for something like fortresshogging? What else could happen beyond falling/SD? How is there any alternative for a failure in this regard? If you're going off the edge, you're going off the edge. Also in relation to balancing Bowser and his one-dimensional playstyle, I'd imagine it being one-dimensional is already a pretty good balance given the properties of Bowser's moves and just how he works in general. He can do a select few things exceptionally, but if he falls short in every other area, it becomes an exploitable flaw to the observant players.

 

[Jacob29]

He said the biggest change was slowing down so why not just make it so Fortress slows down over time?

That's what we are doing anyway, fullspeed towards a ledge, get close and slow down for the grab.

So why not just make that automatically happen? Add a max speed and a min speed and it degrades quickly over time.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Probably because that would obsolete the manual input they wanted to give the move to make it not nearly as exploitable as before? Plus automatic systems like that I find generally less reliable because now you have to gauge time as opposed to doing a minimal amount of movement input. It just takes out work and adds harder work.

 

[Frost | Odds]

We've had SO MANY different crazy builds for bowser that just haven't worked out and haven't been ready to release.

Any chance we could get sparksnotes outlines of some of these? Maybe someone in the community will have a brainstorm that makes one of those builds work.

why not just make it so Fortress slows down over time?

That's what we are doing anyway, fullspeed towards a ledge, get close and slow down for the grab.

So why not just make that automatically happen? Add a max speed and a min speed and it degrades quickly over time.

That would make up-B *WAY* less safe in general, not just in the forthogging context. Not good.

 

[Jacob29]

Well that was the first thing I can't up but I'm sure there is another option.

 

[MurderClauz]

Funny how this went full circle bak to fortress hogging lol. But you kno what would be cool, if they made the up+b jump cancelable and mayb lessened the amount of pushbak his moves do. Mayb add a little less lag just a little so with proper timing u could get combos off? like lets say grab up throw down b cancel into downair, then up b jump out and do a fair or sumthing or another dair? idk w.e. just a thought. also if it were jump cancelable noone would complain about insta death and ud still have to sweet spot the ledge if u missed the hog. Which still takes finesse to do.

 

[GeZ]

It would be making one of the best OoS moves in the game better, which wouldn't be good, and change the implementation of the move greatly. It also just doesn't make any sense.

 

[MurderClauz]

It would be making one of the best OoS moves in the game better, which wouldn't be good, and change the implementation of the move greatly. It also just doesn't make any sense.

yeah i know its just a funzies post. Gimpy said they have different builds for him so I'm just putting it out there. Obv there would be other things ud need to change around with it if u did what i said, like make the priority less. but that being said bowser is still a huge punching bag and if his size is unchanged hes still easily combod even with that change. I just think it would be fun to be able to string stuff together with him and give him a better approach.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Making the upB JC-able would be way too good. If we're playing around in brainstorm fantasyland, though:

I wonder if maybe doing something like that for his smash attacks could be fun. For example, give him the ability to cancel a smash (only in windup) into a Klaw or a tilt- thus allowing Bowser a few more mindgames and mixups without actually making him too much safer, or homogenizing his gameplay. This would also seem to fit with Bowser's flavor as a character.
"Alright, I'm gonna smash you now! Get reaaaaady for it!"
*dtilts*
"HAW HAW HAW, you actually fell for that!?!"

Again, just silly ideas.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

stuff

These are pretty much all the things that haunt Bowser as a character when compared to the rest of the cast. And if you ask me, i think that 2.5 Bowser was a perfect step in the right direction for BOwser design. His tremendously powerful fair was nerfed to the point in where it wasn't really a viable kill move, but yet he got a significant amount of chancges to make up for it, like the faster and more reliable dash grab that you mentioned (and i think this was the best 2.5 change overall).

Just what did 3.0 do to try and change whatever was making Bowser's design mediocre? From what i felt were the most noticeable changes, A stronger fair is what immediatly resonates, but it's not like more power will help to an already massive powerhouse (And i thought this kind of design was being avoided). A weaker Nair that is admittedly nicer for certain combos, while also rendering previous ones pointless. Now it's a better combo tool at high percents than at early ones. Then what apparently is a longer horizontal distance on Up-B.. which also seems like a nice upgrade on paper, but it's not doing much other than slightly increasing the distances at which bowser can up b without being edgehogged, since down b is still a superior option in almost every way when recovering cose to the edge.

What does he lose? most notably, his fast fortress hog, a good chunk of his bair's viability other than being a gimp move, and what seems to be a hitbox change on his grounded up b (I do not know exactly what was changed about this, but it seems that Bowser loses a lot more trades than it did before 3.0). I mean, i'm glad that the PMBR is taking a lot of care with Bowser's design and i'm even more glad that they know that he's a tricky char to balance, but i'm not feeling like 3.0's changes were even following that same mindset. Or perhaps i'm wrong and someone could point out something i'm not seeing, something about 3.0 Bowser's design that really started moving the character in the right direction.

 

[Abeebo]

Smash cancelling actually crossed my mind once before, but instead cancelling a smash into one other smash. Then again, if Bowser could cancel the start ups indefinitely, that could be quite the bait and punish. In retrospect, my examples are not that great but it's options.
I was actually wondering what you guys would think of better crawl transitions? For example: When landing from a jump, or after l-cancelling a move, or jumpsquatting, if you hold down to go into crawl asap, you'll see Bowser stand up first. What if he didn't stand up and went straight to crawl? It would give him a small frame advantage, enables crawl armor faster, d-tilt, whatever you do with crawl. Maybe even have crouching actually cancel a move, like down B armored squat animation?
I mean, if Bowser's moveset is destined to be 'basic' or whatever, reliant on reads and punishes. Mind games and options; simple but deceiving actions is where he should be heading from here, no? In his world, he's not just the biggest dude around; he's got the mindset of a boss. A criminal(?) mastermind. He built a seemingly endless army. He's one smart mother lover. If competition is exploiting the rules ::hard:: to win, if the engine favors speed and offense, then unique cancels, additional move alternatives, and tricky animations COULD be the kind of thing up Bowser's sleeve.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

the biggest change to the fortress hogging ability wasn't specifically to make it easier, but to slow it down. In almost every case it either slows it down, or it makes it not worth the risk to attempt to do an incredibly fast fortress hog. Being able to do (for example) back throw -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack -> fortresshog -> getup attack endlessly against a falco for example is in very poor design.

And i just want to say that this kind of move is COMPLETELY unchanged in 3.0. Assuming you get the first successful get up attack vs Spacies or CFGanon, etc, you can just run into the ledge, then up b immediatly before you drop off (Just like you can get this cool up b animation with link before regrabbing the ledge) and then just get up attack, with plenty of time to repeat the motion over, and over. In reality all this change did is limit the options bowser had while using Up B ON the stage and then wiggling towards the ledge to fortress hog.

 

[Alex Night]

I'm not a dedicated Bowser main, but I still find Bowser to be pretty strong in small stages which is a good sum of starter stages. He has a Fire Breath that pushes your enemies away, so there's an edgeguarding move. He is an extreme character to be sure, but he'll do just fine in the tournament scene even without the auto-pilot Fortress-hogging.