King Koopa's New Digs 3.0 Edition

[Frost | Odds]

Cmart's experience mirrors mine exactly. I legit think Link is sleeper top tier.

 

[deadjames]

Yeah I don't have much problem w/ Fox, Sheik, Falco. Falco especially isn't very threatening - Fox can at least bait you and Sheik can needle camp a bit. I struggle with ROB and Ganon, and lose badly to Falcon and Link.

The only one of those characters I have trouble with is Sheik, but I've never fought a good ROB. That being said the only one I feel Bowser actually has the advantage against is Falcon.

 

[Alex Night]

Cmart's experience mirrors mine exactly. I legit think Link is sleeper top tier.

Well, it all depends on how the player uses Link. He can deal with almost any opponent if he uses his tools correctly. He is technical in the sense of using his various tools which are the Bombs, Bow, Boomerang, the Clawshot, and now his Master Sword which can rival Marth's range on some attacks.

 

[Abeebo]

Bowser may or may not have an advantage to Falcon. If he does, is it really worth much? I feel that Bowser's size lets falcon get away with longer delays in his combos. Of course, we all know those combos usually lead to a fair that is just as deadly to us as it is to any other character.

 

[deadjames]

That's true but Bowser can shut down a lot of Falcon's attempts to start a combo/tech chase with his superior range, and because of Falcon's weight and physics Bowser's combos can be pretty deadly for him too. Both of them combo each other to death, but I feel like Bowser doesn't have to work as hard for it. Also Falcon doesn't really have many options that can beat Bowser's armor other than knee and grabs, but his grab range is piss poor, so a Bowser with good spacing will rarely, if ever get grabbed by Falcon.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Ganon is tough.. specially cause his attacks are unusually strong and you can be out of the stage getting edgeguarded so fast. Rob is a bit tough i guess. I have no doubt that Fox is Bowser's hardest MU despite how incredibly easy you can 0 to death that thing, you just can't ever approach or do anything without getting punished, and you can't camp without getting outcamped back really

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Also Link is very hard to get MU wise at first IMO. Link has a loooot of tools that just work incredibly well vs bowser like boomerang, bombs, Zair, Up b, all grabs and followups from it, etc. But if you use's Bowser's armors well and clank/trade with the correct moves at the right times you can just keep approaching and pressuring him, and while Link has a neat close combat game your moves just literally rip him apart.

i swear if i get up b spiked one more time though

 

[Alex Night]

Also Link is very hard to get MU wise at first IMO. Link has a loooot of tools that just work incredibly well vs bowser like boomerang, bombs, Zair, Up b, all grabs and followups from it, etc. But if you use's Bowser's armors well and clank/trade with the correct moves at the right times you can just keep approaching and pressuring him, and while Link has a neat close combat game your moves just literally rip him apart.

i swear if i get up b spiked one more time though

Armoring through Zair will net you 15% damage though. It really isn't wise for Bowser to fight Link to begin with since Armor will only help so much against a Link player that knows how to fight against that. Anything larger than Fountain of Dreams is a nightmare for Bowser since it benefits Link having more space.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Space is not a problem. Small stages with platform layouts like Yoshi's Story's are actually benefitial for link IMO, as Link can you just control you very well given the small space. I like WW, GHZ, Battlefield and DL64 when playing vs Link for example. The biggest problems are PS2, FD and Smashville, stages with no platforms or badly positioned platforms that don't really help Bowser much and will just let Link space efficiently all day.

 

[Alex Night]

Space is not a problem. Small stages with platform layouts like Yoshi's Story's are actually benefitial for link IMO, as Link can you just control you very well given the small space. I like WW, GHZ, Battlefield and DL64 when playing vs Link for example. The biggest problems are PS2, FD and Smashville, stages with no platforms or badly positioned platforms that don't really help Bowser much and will just let Link space efficiently all day.

Yeah, but you gotta beware of being on a platform above Link since his sword can reach Bowser on a stage like Warioware. I would ban Dreamland in a heartbeat given how Bowser can live forever on that stage. The only character that wouldn't have too much of a problem with Bowser on that stage is Samus.

 

[Jacob29]

Shouldn't this be in the matchup thread? Just seems like we have two Matchup threads right now, one of them is properly titled (And isn't used) while the other is about 3.0 changes (and is used)

 

[tripwire]

Cmart's experience mirrors mine exactly. I legit think Link is sleeper top tier.

Sleeper doe? Link has been at the top of my personal tier forever in PM.

Edit- You all should check out LAZ and Harrry the Chin. They are from what I've seen the best Link's in the Chicagoland area.

 

[Ace55]

Well I hate to be King John III but I'm afraid I'm dropping Boozer. Which is unfortunate because a heavy char with a godly OoS option and a strong ledgegame complemented my playstyle perfectly. I've spend quite some time getting the new fortesshog down but regardless I still SD occasionally. Combined with pressure every time I try it in tournament I'm holding my breath. At the end of the day it leads me to not attempt it at all or to be so scared of SDing that I pull back too much before the ledge a good amount of the time. Playing a Boozer in such a suboptimal fashion isn't really the way to go so yeah. 2.0 till 2.6 Bowser you will be missed.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Well I hate to be King John III but I'm afraid I'm dropping Boozer. Which is unfortunate because a heavy char with a godly OoS option and a strong ledgegame complemented my playstyle perfectly. I've spend quite some time getting the new fortesshog down but regardless I still SD occasionally. Combined with pressure every time I try it in tournament I'm holding my breath. At the end of the day it leads me to not attempt it at all or to be so scared of SDing that I pull back too much before the ledge a good amount of the time. Playing a Boozer in such a suboptimal fashion isn't really the way to go so yeah. 2.0 till 2.6 Bowser you will be missed.

I've been pretty much forced to do the same. I'll still cheese some good MUs out with him, but now it's basically all Kirby all the time. I'm terribly scared of the ledge in tournament.

 

[Alex Night]

You could always try wavelanding off stage to grab the ledge. It really isn't that hard with Bowser due to his fat weight. I'm sorry, but I always joke about his weight. Is it fat or pure muscle? There's also his Down B which is easy to use to steal the ledge, armor through recoveries, and damage the opponent heavily at the same time. Bowser is still a serious threat near the ledge and against recovering opponents. Just stop focusing on what he doesn't have and focus on what he still does like his Fire Breath that pushes enemies away and set them up for a bad recovery position for a stronger attack to finish.

 

[Frost | Odds]

You could always try wavelanding off stage to grab the ledge. It really isn't that hard with Bowser due to his fat weight. I'm sorry, but I always joke about his weight. Is it fat or pure muscle? There's also his Down B which is easy to use to steal the ledge, armor through recoveries, and damage the opponent heavily at the same time. Bowser is still a serious threat near the ledge and against recovering opponents. Just stop focusing on what he doesn't have and focus on what he still does like his Fire Breath that pushes enemies away and set them up for a bad recovery position for a stronger attack to finish.

It's not about being able to grab ledge. It's about being able to safely upB to escape unavoidable stupid situations.

 

[deadjames]

Oddly enough I just decided to pick Bowser back up after much consideration. Gotta have that character loyalty, I've used him here and there in tournament post 3.0, but I just can't settle on a new main, so I'll be going all Bowser at my next tournament.

 

[Ace55]

It's not about being able to grab ledge. It's about being able to safely upB to escape unavoidable stupid situations.

It's both actually. Bowser is a char who has to capitalize on every chance he gets. The time difference between fortresshogging or other methods of grabbing the ledge means that that Sheik you finally knocked off-stage is now hanging at the ledge instead of being forced to recover on-stage.

I really want to rage about this change some more but I'll refrain from it. I love this project to death and by no means am planning on quitting to it. I just can't stand that my Bowser went from solid to unreliable overnight. Even worse since I can not agree in the slightest with the philosophy behind the change.

 

[deadjames]

I still disagree with the philosophy, but Bowser is still 100% viable.

 

[Frost | Odds]

He's still viable in a lot of matchups; but for many, the rather reduced safety polarizes them even further. See: Lucas, M2, Link, etc

Also, boozer always viable on Warioware kappa

 

[Alex Night]

It's not about being able to grab ledge. It's about being able to safely upB to escape unavoidable stupid situations.

Again, you're putting too much focus on the Up B change. Bowser still can use Up B as a nice OOS option. It's also a good spacing tool with the exception of very fast opponents like Falcon, Fox, and Sonic. It's just not the easy button to grab ledge anymore.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Of course. It's just super unsafe if you can't grab ledge after, because you'll get punished super hard if the opponent shields the first hit.

 

[Alex Night]

Of course. It's just super unsafe if you can't grab ledge after, because you'll get punished super hard if the opponent shields the first hit.

Well. As Doc said, "Smash ain't no joke." You gotta keep working around that weakness then. Bowser can still be a giant pain in the ass if you keep putting in the effort for that old turtle... Dragon... Turtle dragon...

 

[Frost | Odds]

I spent some time in the lab, and it seems I was indeed overreacting - it *is* possible to reliably grab edge with proper timing - it's still pretty tricky, though; and extraordinarily difficult to safely do it from side Battlefield platforms and stuff.

Dunno. Picked up a good character (diddy) to carry me through the unwinnable matchups; just wish there weren't any unwinnable ones.

I know the PMBR has floated the idea of a total Bowser overhaul before. I wouldn't mind re-learning the character entirely if he was made less mu-polarized and more fun for erryone.

 

[cmart]

I know the PMBR has floated the idea of a total Bowser overhaul before. I wouldn't mind re-learning the character entirely if he was made less mu-polarized and more fun for erryone.

While I obviously can't go into detail about what we're looking into or exploring regarding post 3.0 Bowser, it interests me that someone would bring such a radical notion up.

I understand that Bowser mains are generally unhappy with the 3.0 changes, but how many of you all would seriously welcome a large revamp? Wether you would or would not, feel free to provide specific examples or feedback on things you think should or shouldn't be changed.

 

[Alex Night]

Well, if we are looking to overhaul Boozer... It would be nice to see him to have more of a stage presence without being inherantly as fast as Mario in terms of free movement. That sounds pretty tricky, but it would be nice to see him be a threat on stage than just use the ledge as a crutch. Kind of like in the Super Mario games while not being too ridiculous. Hmmm, what about a Fire Ball attack instead of a Fire Breath attack? One that has average speed and can only be fired one at a time every two seconds? It'd be a nice way to give him a bit more stage presence if we're gonna go the whole stage presence route. What do you guys think?

 

[Frost | Odds]

feel free to provide specific examples or feedback on things you think should or shouldn't be changed.

While I appear to have your attention ( :D ), then...

I'm kind of running with the assumption that you want to make bowser more fun for both Bowser and the opponent, as well as just making him more viable - while also making him a little bit stronger and more tech-oriented, without feeling quite as broken against new players.

Ofc, that's tricky as hell.

It seems to me that there's a few different ways you could go with an overhaul, some of which are mutually exclusive and some which are not - I guess i'll just label some multidimensional axes b/c I'm a STEM major >.>.

Axis 1: Slower <------------> Faster

Axis 2: Laggier <-----------> Less Laggy

Axis 3: Less emphasis on super armor <----------> More armor

Axis 4: Hits less powerfully <-----------> More stronger

Axis 5: Less Range <-------------> More range

Axis 6: Weaker/harder combos <-----------> Stronger/easier combos

Axis 7: Less mindgame opportunities <-----------> More mindgames

Axis 8: Less safe options <-------------> More safe options

This seems pretty dumb/obvious, but i think it might be helpful to distinguish between these things, and provide a useful shorthand.

Bowser players have less fun when Bowser's too far to the left on a given axis, and others have less fun when he's too far to the right.

So, the main problem axes seem to be (in my experience):

for Bowser players:
2: Very punishable everything
7: Bowser's only real ground mindgame is dashgrab vs dashattack, and his only real aerial mindgame is range-appropriate-aerial vs Klaw vs flame-cancel (all of which can be easily avoided with proper spacing OR timing)
He's got too much landing lag and way too terrible of a grab to tomahawk, can't realistically DD grab b/c huge hurtbox, etc. Also can't really wavedash around to supplement his awful DD because of the huge jumping/landing lag.
8: UpB *very* laggy and unsafe, see the 3.0 debacle; heh. That was Bowser's only safe option other than forever-Dtilt. Flame cancel is pretty safe against an unsuspecting opponent; but someone wise to it can very easily jump it and kill you.

I have never had a complaint about any of the other axes, whilst playing Bowser. I think you'll find that most Boozer players agree. He hits plenty hard from plenty far, the super-armor is nice (but not really necessary-feeling most of the time), all of which should be a cause for alarm. If I, a biased player, never wish that my character had just a bit more raw statistical power, there's likely a problem.

for others:
1: UpB is *really* frustrating to play against, even in Melee for people un-used to it. Attached to the noobdestroyer that Boozer is in PM, this just destroys people, and isn't fun to lose to.
3: The Klaw is easily the biggest offender here: everyone knows the essential fighting game triad of Attack > Block > Grab, and here we have an attack that's also a grab that also beats other attacks. This gives opponents the frustration of perfectly predicting the Klaw, and being surprised when it beats their intuitively-correct response. The Armor also feels pretty redundant on the F-Smash, not that there's ever a reason to use it.
4: The extent to which Bowser almost automatically punishes small mistakes is pretty silly and immensely frustrating. This is not controversial, i think.
5: The range on the fair and dtilt seems to cause a lot of salt due to the former's insane killpower, and the latter's safety - it's like Marth's dtilt but longer ranged, taller hitbox, harder-hitting, and safer.

I have never heard a complaint to the effect of "Bowser's too unpredictable, there's no way to prepare for all of his options", or "his stuff is so unpunishable", or "there's no way to attack him". It's always complaints about specific moves, and the raw stats thereof.

So, in my view, it looks like there isn't that much conflict here. I don't mind if 345 are scaled back (and something is done about Fortress), and my opponents wouldn't mind if Bowser was a bit less laggy, and had a bunch more options. The biggest stumbling block here seems to be the well-intentioned design decisions to make Bowser the biggest, baddest, armoredest brother on the block. Great idea, but not working out so hot.

So, that's the basis of my thinking, and the general theme of the changes I'd like to see.

As for more specific, maybe occasionally slightly-wonky stuff that I personally would be really interested to try:

Spoiler

- Earlier in this thread, I made this suggestion, which I still quite like: http://smashboards.com/threads/king-koopas-new-digs-3-0-edition.343621/page-6#post-16151324

- Flame breath is utterly useless outside of flame cancel with Brawl's ledge magnet hands; both in the ground and in the air. I propose some combination of the following changes (NOT ALL OF THEM OBVIOUSLY):

Spoiler

-making this move less laggy AND slow when used raw-dog on the ground, especially in conjunction with an up-B nerf.
-Giving the move an entirely different effect when used on the ground and in the air. What if grounded flames had long startup but a very safe/fast ending animation, and when used in the air, it buffered up a frontal fiery explosion for when Bowser hit the ground?
-Total rework (so-crazy-it-just-might-work suggestion) [bear with me]:
* If Bowser taps B instead of holding, allow him to begin charging flames; cancellable like other chargable moves with rolls or L/R
* When charged, let another tap release them as a big, slow-moving projectile like Aura Sphere. I like this idea a lot, because it both gives Bowser an invaluable approach option, and incentivizes his opponents to approach him- obviously, this only makes sense in the context of a somewhat wimpier bowser in terms of attack power and armor, but it sort of auto-fixes a lot of the stagnation in Bowser's meta and should generally make playing as- and against- him a lot more interesting. Also, it gives Bowser a damn good motivation to not camp the ledge, because he wants to charge his flame. I understand that it may not be possible to import an art asset for this, but I have faith that something janky could be worked out if it was deemed worth it. For example, just using a floating hitbox, and swirling some of the (I assume) 2d images that compose his regular flame breath. As for the projectile itself, I'd prefer if it wasn't a kill move at all, just damaging and slight hitstun. It would be pretty cool if Bowser could run through it, grab a particularly hapless player, and hold them in it while chomping -- but as for the exact effects of the projectile, I think there would be tons of room for tweaking.
* Alternatively to the aura-flame, let charged flame-breath be a huge burst of flame, very quickly petering to nothing. Like, battlefield-coveringly big. This wouldn't really lead into any free combos any more than regular flame breath, but simply give Bowser access to some safe ranged damage, not too dissimilar to Fox's lasers - but more awesome and bursty and METAL. This would also incentivize people to approach a (again, otherwise somewhat wimpier) Bowser, besides giving him an interesting new edgeguarding tool against people recovering low.
* It would be unbelievably cool (and not even imbalanced, probably) if you could choose between either of the previous two by tapping vs holding B, but that's a lot to ask.

- What about allowing Bowser to charge his up-B somewhat like Toon Link's -- increasing in mobility and power as the charge builds? If it's kind of a limp **** normally, but lets you charge up to fly across the stage, it lets Bowser play with timings, play new types of footsies with opponents, and so forth. Again, this gives Bowser much-needed options from across the stage, forces opponents to approach, makes Bowser better in Doubles, and lets him mix up his ledgeguards/hogs. As an added bonus, we could probably safely revert fortresshogging to its previous safe autopilot mode, because it's no longer abusable due to up-B's effectively longer windup - no more broken than if Jiggs's Rollout or Ganon's side-B (heh) grabbed the ledge from the stage. Please note that neither this, nor some of the proposed Flame Breath changes, would require any new animations or anything.

- Maybe make the fair sweetspot slightly less ridiculous?

- Slightly smaller size for bowser in general, if feasible? I don't know if this would be good/appropriate, but it'd probably fit him a bit better if you toned down some of his raw power.

- I'd remove the super-armor on the Fsmash (it already has a fun leanback, and he has armor on his other smashes), and make it a bit quicker and probably quite a bit weaker (like, still the strongest smash in the game but just barely maybe?) - thus making it a slightly more viable option in situations other than edgeguarding (in which case down-B is usually strictly better anyway) and also less frustrating when it hits.

- We can all agree that the length of jumpsquat and landlag are kinda ridiculous. I'd like to see those reduced by 2 frames to make him tied, I think, with the current 2nd worst.

- I like downtilt, it just has a bit too much range probably, when considered with his crouch armor. If Bowser's size is reduced, this problem will likely solve itself.

- Generally probably somewhat less damage on moves, but only ofc if there's also appropriate buffs.

- Take the armor off of Klaw. Maybe the dash attack, too - but obviously only w/buffs.

- Less kill power on up-B. Maybe an extra frame of startup in the entirely-likely event you don't want to take the Toon Link route.

I can probably think of a bunch more, but this is just the stuff that immediately came to mind. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to read and possibly discuss. <3

Obviously, this is all just my opinion, and what I've gathered about the opinions of others.

Edit: also not unhappy with all the 3.0 changes. New nair is boss, and a very appropriate move for armor still. I like fair having a sweetspot, but it's probably too stronk against new players.

Edit edit: Other moves I think are perfect: Jabs, uair, dair, ftilt, downB

 

[Alex Night]

A lot of stuff about Boozer.

Odds, that Fire projectile idea you have is so crazy... It just might work. I'd be interested in fighting a Bowser with an Aura Sphere like Fire ball projectile. It'd be like fighting Bowser in Super Mario Galaxy when he could spew fire balls at you. Considering I'm a Mario player and Link player, it'd be a pretty awesome match. As well as what else you said... A less laggy, but less powerful Bowser would be interesting as well. I'd be okay with that as long as there is less emphasis on his Armor. With him being less powerful, he'd do less shield damage but it wouldn't be too much of a problem if his moves were not so easy to punish anymore.

I think I might be okay with what you said about Bowser. Release the Koopa!

 

[GeZ]

I'm going to throw in that the big slow moving fireball idea was actually implemented and tested in an earlier demo, and while it was neat it didn't help Bowser with any of the matchups he struggled in, so it was cut. Sorry man, but that idea is a no go.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Really? Was it super laggy or what? I can't imagine how giving him a wall to advance behind wouldn't help (except against Mario and Mewtwo, heh), especially if it beat other projectiles (notably Razor Leaf and Link's boomerang), and especially because it wouldn't be replacing much of use. In any case, even if it didn't help bigslowbowser, it might be more useful for faster, more mixuppy Bowser, or even 3.0 Bowser; the metagame's surely changed significantly since then. It should also be straightforward to tinker with the statistics of such a move (startup time, endlag, projectile power, projectile properties etc etc etc) until it actually does help.

Obviously I'm not saying that you're wrong - only that I'm completely bewildered.

EDIT: On Skype with Lunchables, he says it was at least partly because it caused crashes due to impossibility of having a projectile on Bowser, which is fair. I still like bigflames idea, though. >.>

Meh.

Do you have any ideas or input? I've seen you on a ton of character forums, should have some interesting perspective.

 

[GeZ]

I'm largely relaying what I heard from others who played with that build as I only got to try it out once or twice, but I think the reason it wasn't very helpful was because Bowser's bad matchups are bad usually because his opponent has better movement than him. So while he could place himself helpfully around this fireball his opponent could just move around it or wait it out and punish Bowser for trying to put another one out afterwards. I think it didn't help because it controlled space, but in a way that was annoying for the opponent rather than advantageous for Bowser.

In regards to a Bowser overhaul, I'd have to put more thought into it, but I think I'd rather see Bowser's current state improved rather than have him completely changed. I'm rather fond of this iteration of Bowser, minus not being able to Fortress hog without ****ting bricks, and would like to see it remain intact.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Hey, losers--

Run toward the ledge, and right before you would run off of it, do a grounded Up-B right before you fall off (sort of like Link Up-B slides off the edge).

You will never pass over the ledge again.

 

[Abeebo]

I would like to see the current Bowser fine-tweaked instead of overhauled. He plays great already and has few problems as some pointed out. He wins tourneys. On the other hand, it seems like the majority are saying that Bowser is still lacking a bit.
It's cool that this character is as crazy as he is, but after reading suggestions and of course maining the character makes me believe Bowser is not quite safe enough for this game in his current iteration to stay in that really tight fray. Not quite there. I don't really want to HAVE to up-b every uncertain close quarter to survive. It's my only option sometimes, and it's really not THAT safe.
I think pre-3.0 Bowsers were ballin' because they did what he does now, but safer, if not OP, overall. He needs some more of that again. Fortress hogging allowed Bowser to do what he could on the stage, but then be on the ledge with ZERO human error. Fair was a massive-hitting 16%er all throughout the hitboxes. Some other aerials had armor at some point. I digress. Maybe some were a little much, but those bowsers literally ripped **** apart compared to 3.0 because they all showed a better presence in the neutral game because he could do more while there (usually just plowing through). I like to think he feels pretty ironed out in 3.0, and is in a good spot to get more suitable tweaks.
Reduced lag in many areas ::DIDSOMEONESAYJUMPSQUATITHINKSO:: would be nice, but i'd rather see some moves with better coverage or setups and would definitely trade damage output for them.
-For it's damage and application, jab doesn't need to be that slow. 5% into 6% is not shabby but every other move is too slow for a jab reset and the 2nd jab hit just pushes people off. Up B is better at that. If knockback sends upwards and/or had a hitbox in his center or almost behind him (in the animation, his arms do swing fairly wide), that would be tight. It would kinda look like he's shaking the enemy off. He wouldn't always need to up-b just to hit someone that's in the center of him (which happens more often than I expected and it's more annoying than I would've thought).
-Dtilt is a move I can see changing up a bit but I like it as is, though one thing I never understood is why Dtilt doesn't inherit the full light armor Bowser's crawl has. Like, what else am I supposed to do while i'm down there? Not attack like a jabroney? Jokes. Anyhoo, Dtilt is cool but it does the same thing as jab which is the same as ftilt, which is a cooler move anyway and you can also angle it. A faster single poke like Kirby's dtilt could be good (with full light armor), but that doesn't sound much different than what it is now. Maybe it sends people behind and bad DI could be punishable? Would a vertical angle be too lethal? Hey, maybe he just needs a neat crawl attack.
-Utilt could use more back coverage. I think foxco-style utilt is a pretty clever and powerful move in the SSB series because it is fantastic for applying/continuing punishment without having to turn around or resorting to higher-risk moves. Bowser is huge. Bowser is slow. He needs this coverage.
-Ftilt is what dtilt and jab think they are. This move can definitely benefit from being faster+less damage OR it can turn into a two-part tilt that moves bowser forward ala Link fsmash. The second tilt doesn't even have to extend further than the first. In my head, keep ftilt as is but then add a swift short shoulder bash chest bump styled thing that moves bowser equal to the range of the first hit. The bash could/should be significantly weaker in knockback, but it could give bowser better footing while staying offensive. Maybe it has light armor or something so he can nullify projectiles more effectively. I really think Bowser could use an offensive move that gives him forward momentum of a sort.
-MOAR ARMOR. I'm thinking more red armor in nair and side-b, which I think are two of Bowser's best assets. The fact that aerials don't clank makes aerial red armor really awesome. What's not that awesome is coming in with nair and have the split-second armor disappear on me, and now i got got. Armor on the 2nd spin of his nair animation would be excellent. Armor could be 2 quick ones instead of one long flash that gives both bowser and the opponent multiple windows to retaliate. Side-b, as Odds put it, is a crazy move in that it's an attack AND grab that stuffs everything. On paper, it's more useful than his standard grabs. It's also the only move that has red armor BEFORE the move actually starts. Considering this is a move meant for close quarters, I think red armor startup could come out sooner, overall longer time for armor. Opponents could still beat Klaw in those few frames between end of red armor and grab/attack box. I'd also say Uair might benefit from armor, but that would not be fun for anyone but Bowser.

What I do want is more thought into giving Bowser little movement options and tweaked ranges so that he can deal with his approaching and pressure problems better than he can now. The things I would push from my suggestions is a foxco-esque uptilt for back coverage and better body hitboxes. And a jumpsquat fix because I wanna see what that's like.

 

[Alex Night]

Hey, losers--

Run toward the ledge, and right before you would run off of it, do a grounded Up-B right before you fall off (sort of like Link Up-B slides off the edge).

You will never pass over the ledge again.

Wait, Link can really do that??? %$#@. And I call myself a dedicated Link player...

 

[Frost | Odds]

Hey, losers--

Run toward the ledge, and right before you would run off of it, do a grounded Up-B right before you fall off (sort of like Link Up-B slides off the edge).

You will never pass over the ledge again.

We know. The timing fortress hog is unaffected, and still extremely easy as in Melee- it's just irritating that Up-B is no longer nearly as safe, because it's pretty tricky to reliably to slide off ledge after using upB under any other circumstances.

Obviously, tech skill is involved for every character, but I don't die instantly if I very slightly mess up the timing on a glide toss with Diddy for example. Bowser needs all the different varieties of fortress hogs to play remotely safely - and currently, it's unfairly difficult to do so in comparison to the baseline tech required to play other characters safely.

edit: This coming from a guy who's spent many, many hours perfecting his Melee Bowser fortress hogging and other silly misc tech stuff. I really don't say it lightly

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Hey, losers--

Run toward the ledge, and right before you would run off of it, do a grounded Up-B right before you fall off (sort of like Link Up-B slides off the edge).

You will never pass over the ledge again.

And i just want to say that this kind of move is COMPLETELY unchanged in 3.0. Assuming you get the first successful get up attack vs Spacies or CFGanon, etc, you can just run into the ledge, then up b immediatly before you drop off (Just like you can get this cool up b animation with link before regrabbing the ledge) and then just get up attack, with plenty of time to repeat the motion over, and over. In reality all this change did is limit the options bowser had while using Up B ON the stage and then wiggling towards the ledge to fortress hog.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

We know. The timing fortress hog is unaffected, and still extremely easy as in Melee- it's just irritating that Up-B is no longer nearly as safe, because it's pretty tricky to reliably to slide off ledge after using upB under any other circumstances.

Obviously, tech skill is involved for every character, but I don't die instantly if I very slightly mess up the timing on a glide toss with Diddy for example. Bowser needs all the different varieties of fortress hogs to play remotely safely - and currently, it's unfairly difficult to do so in comparison to the baseline tech required to play other characters safely.

edit: This coming from a guy who's spent many, many hours perfecting his Melee Bowser fortress hogging and other silly misc tech stuff. I really don't say it lightly

If tech skill is involved for every character, what significant tech skill is required of Bowser outside of the Up-B ledge stuff? Jumping out of Down-B? Hitting with sweetspot F-Air?

In what instances is the current Up-B more difficult/less accessible than Melee for ledge play?

 

[Dyna]

That doesn't matter Reflex, get to the point in hand and read the post like a functional human being.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

If tech skill is involved for every character, what significant tech skill is required of Bowser outside of the Up-B ledge stuff? Jumping out of Down-B? Hitting with sweetspot F-Air?

In what instances is the current Up-B more difficult/less accessible than Melee for ledge play?

In none. But what's the point of sticking to Melee techniques and aspects, when it's clear that Bowser was really not good at all in Melee? It really confused me a lot when people mention that Bowser's Bair endlag was always supposed to be like Melee. You're intentionally making moves or techniques worse just to adhere with a character that had terrible design, with little apparent reason other than "bcuz melee".

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I never said to stick to Melee techniques and aspects; in fact, I'm the very last person to suggest going back to Melee fare (on just about any character, mind you; especially Bowser, who I mained in Melee for many years). I just don't think that the Up-B change is nearly as crippling to his gameplay as people are suggesting. You generally have time to put yourself in position to easily do it while attempting to edgeguard. The hitbox is still pretty large. Bowser still has the earliest IASA in the game on his ledge jump (by a LOT, actually). He's still one of the most potent edgeguarders in the game, and this only hinders him in cases where people haven't practiced it OR when speed is of the absolute essence (which is actually an extension of people not practicing; his Up-B movement isn't faster than his run speed).

When you do it perfectly, you are just as fast, if not faster, than its previous iteration. You still get all of its benefits in an overwhelming majority of cases (where you don't have to get to the edge ASAP during an edgeguarding situation). This is a game where we want longevity--You should have to practice to be able to squeeze the absolute most out of strong options, and it's still quite lax in comparison to the strictness of the cast's required tech skill as a whole. You have an alternative (in rolling to the edge first). What's missing?