King Koopa's New Digs 3.0 Edition

[Chaos_Blasta]

Fire breath pushes enemies away? where da DI at doe

 

[cmart]

Fire breath has a steep negative angle against grounded targets. Your only DI options are down (and remain in the fire taking 3 dmg per hitbox) or away and get pushed out. It also punishes CCing because a negative angle cannot be properly CC'd. Aerial targets can DI up and away to get out, or try to SDI in and risk the chomp.

 

[SmashAmass]

well cmart, I've actually been maining the character for about a solid month now. I would like to, rather than comparatively bashing the previous iterations of the characters, explain how I feel these changes affect my meta-game and playstyle.

+His Nair approach and OoS options are made stronger by a weaker knockback. I've found that using this can cover a lot of options and reliably follows up to a low percent tech chase combo. On High %, I can use Nair off ledge as a spacing tool instead of a getup.
+The restructured fire hitboxes are absolutely great on-ground! Especially the hitboxes on the front of the jaw, it sends off for a great unexpected punish with a tipper Fair
+Speaking of Fair, it's GLORIOUS! I know the mentality of the character is to create a more well-rounded experience, but having that extraordinary killing power with a marth-esqe spacing game is very rewarding.
*I'm not sure where the Up-B hitbox restructure comes into play, but I don't really have any feelings towards it.
*The sourspot on the base Fair isn't really bad... but not good either. It off-shoots at a strange angle, and usually under use I find myself connecting that hitbox on accident, not on purpose. As I used as an example, Marth's sourspot Fair has it's utilities and setups, so why should Bowser have the same type of hitbox with nearly no viable rewards? I don't want to feel like my move is absolutely garbage if I miss the spacing slightly, couldn't there be possibly less vertical growth on the sourspot to allow for punish of bad enemy DI? idk, just throwing ideas out.
- There is no knockback from aerial fire, which dumbfounds me. Why not? I know it would make edgehogging much easier, but shouldn't it have a little more reward? like, say, higher damage output or longer range, or maybe even shorter start-up and end lag?
- I am not a fan of the new Fortress Hogging mechanic. Not due to the complexity of the move (or in the other posts, the "artificial difficulty curve"), but more so in it's versatility. This nerf I feel has affected my risk taking, and I don't want to loose a stock because I slightly messed up the timing. If I screw up a ledge grab with other characters, I still have other means to return safely. With Bowser, it's a stock cost, 25% of my potential safety blanket gone from trying to just grab a ledge! I agree with the fact that having the complexity of the move increase to reward good input, but should that design mentality carry into the effectiveness of the established meta-game of the character? Bowser, as I see him, is a lot more edgeguard game and hard punish, with a decent neutral game and bad approach. So why should I be forced to play the weaknesses of my own character due to a fundamental flaw in the edge guarding system for the character? You can make it more difficult, sure, I don't mind learning new things, but I don't want to be punished for playing with the initial traits of the character. What if Fox had less running speed, or falco less aerial height, or marth less tipper knockback? It may not seem like much of a nerf, but it affects the way the character plays and how those strengths are effectively used. I'm all for character re-designs, but please give the characters the full package, not remove something and expect them to be just as effective.
-Sorry for the Tl:Dr from that last paragraph, but I also don't like the Bair changes either. I know it may seem cheap to have that much edge control with the hitbox on the ledge, but why should it be so long that it removes almost all my options? With the edgehogging mechanic tweaked combined with the Bair being nerfed off-stage, it almost seems like you guys want to refocus the meta-game of bowser to be more stage control and heavy punish. Fine, but as I stated before, don't just remove these options from me and expect me to be ok without any fair balances to compensate for these losses.
- This isn't a complaint for the changes, but is there anyway you guys could fix the neutral standing grab box? If there's an enemy in the center of my shield, I literally cannot grab them! It leaves me open and removes a lot of potential punish options, so could you guys consider changing this?

Thanks again for reading into this, I hope I didn't come across as unnecessarily harsh or biased, I just want to see the best potential changes to a character with a lot of possibilities to explore.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I've actually somewhat reversed my position on the forthog change.

The spirit of the change is alright, but I think it's probably quite a bit too finicky in terms of execution. It's fine to punish players for careening off the edge full-force, but slowhogging via the Melee method of putting the stick in a top corner notch doesn't work, and the timing is extremely unforgiving to slow down before reaching the ledge due to how the move's momentum works. Tech being difficult is fine, but currently I think it's a bit unreasonable for something that will instantly kill you.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well now Odds, that changes everything! If you can't perform it like in Melee, it makes it harder than Melee's! That....needs fixing.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Obviously, I'm biased.

Regardless, I think it makes sense for there to be a simple input (like the mentioned slowhog trick) that allows the user to conform to the PMBR-imposed speed limit on Bowser's forthog, which was the explicit purpose of the change in the first place. This allows Fortress to be slowed down only in the context of approaching the ledge, which was, again, the stated purpose of the change; while also not killing hapless Bowsers who make tiny tech errors.

It's still super duper easy to just run at the ledge and use timing to hog it, but that's not really relevant.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well if it was designed to match Melee's and it doesn't have what Melee's had that made it easier or better, that's an issue in itself in terms of matching Melee's version of the move . I totally agree, needs a quickfix in the next update.

On another note, god trying to run and train a Pocket Bowser is harder than I expected. Such a big jump from all the other characters I play, it's nuts. So hard to change from my usual offensive style to Bowser style.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Oh, damn, I thought you were being sarcastic, sorry.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I should probably have been a lot less sarcastic sounding. Kind of odd how that's an inherent part of my personality that seeped through there, haha. Either way, I need to like....rework how I think about this game to play Bowser effectively, I'd imagine.

 

[Alex Night]

Really? Because I could've sworn that it was more lenient in Project M than in Melee. That's what it felt like to me.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

It is much easier to do it in PM compared to Melee.

 

[Frost | Odds]

That's so weird. O.o

 

[Kirks#1Fan]

Has anyone been remotely successful in tournament with Bowser in 3.0? I know I saw Gimpy play him for like one game, but then he went back to broken Link. I hope this game doesn't turn into "swap mains for the OP characters" every version. That or play Fox.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Dear PMBR:

3.0 Bowser is terrible in several aspects.

First off, i would like to start with: why did Bowser have to get such degrading, humilliating nerfs? Wasn't the general concensus that Bowser was a low tier, or that atleast he wasn't very good in competitive, high-level play in the first place? Why does the PMBR, or whoever was in charge of Bowser's design, feel it's proper to change the mechanics and gameplay of a character that dedicated players have spent more than a year and a half using?

Worst change of them all: Fortress hogging. I've heard arguments that it was too easy, or that it was spammed too much that certain players, or that it should require some level of finesse, but nothing has convinced me of why such a basic, integral mechanic to bowser's gameplay had to be changed to be harder for Bowser mains, to the point in where one actually has increased time to get the ledge due to the slight speed drops needed near the ledge to be able to snap it. I don't think "Needs some finesse" applies in comparison ot techniques like moonwalking, l cancelling or wavedashing when the punishment for getting it wrong is completely losing a stock.

Then, a little less important but still disheartening, are Bair and Nair's nerfs. Bair lost a lot of utility both onstage and offstage due to the much larger IASA frames, to the point in where it's not really viable to use it onstage anymore since you need to always l-cancel it, and offstage because the timing to get out a bair and still get back onstage is ridiculously strict, not to mention that it hardly covers the things it did before this way. Nair having reduced knockback is quite annoying, as it makes most early-percent combos much harder to execute due to the reduced hitstun the opponent suffers.

For ending notes, I also heard that Up B didn't lose its invencibility frames, but the reduced hitboxes on grounded Whirling Fortress really seems to affects the kind of attacks that bowser can get through on its very startup. Particularly, and to give an example, something i do often is Up B into Spacies' own Up Bs while they recover, then ledgegrab jump bair, which was always safe due to up b's previous mechanics. Now, it seems it always trades the hit, which is quite frustrating. And although Fair got a change that was positive for Bowser, it seems pretty redundant given how Bowser's Fair was already a very solid move, so a power increase/decrease balance seemed hardly neccesary.

In conclusion, I think that virtually every Bowser change does nothing to genuinely balance Bowser, and instead, It is of my belief that these particular changes help in no way but to slap dedicated bowser players in the face. If one wishes to reduce this post to a nutshell and just call it "salt", then so be it. I'm not gonna drop Bowser anytime soon, but i sure would like to see some of those changes reverted. A single voice doesn't count for much, i suppose, but i want to express these opinions.

Best regards:

-Jorge

P.S: #BuffBowser

I was gonna give a rant similar to this, but you beat me to it. lol.

Nerfing Bowser was a stupid move. Plain and simple.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

No, unlike 2.6 Sonic, 3.0 Bowser is probably still viable, we're just salty because unlike Sonic, Bowser's nerfs were completely unwarranted.

PREACH!

 

[deadjames]

Has anyone been remotely successful in tournament with Bowser in 3.0? I know I saw Gimpy play him for like one game, but then he went back to broken Link. I hope this game doesn't turn into "swap mains for the OP characters" every version. That or play Fox.

I've had some tournament success with 3.0 Bowser, I regularly place in the top 8 in my area, but I don't exclusively use Bowser.

 

[Alex Night]

Has anyone been remotely successful in tournament with Bowser in 3.0? I know I saw Gimpy play him for like one game, but then he went back to broken Link. I hope this game doesn't turn into "swap mains for the OP characters" every version. That or play Fox.

I don't see how Link is broken in Project M. He's a solid character now that can hold his own in close combat which is what held him back in Melee. The only way that he would be broken is if his sword attacks are as fast as Marth's and his Boomerang outprioritizes the majority of characters' moves. Link is not at that point yet and therefore, he is not broken. You're playing the match wrong if you're letting him overwhelm you.

It would be nice if Bowser was given more tools to emphasize heavy punish and stage control instead of the play by the ledge game that he has, but unfortunately he doesn't have them all and got his auto-snap taken away. Bowser is a very difficult character to balance. Let's face it, Bowser's metagame relies on the ledge as well as punishing stupid moves so what else is there for Bowser to grow? The whole heavy punish and stage control game would give his metagame more room to grow than just by playing by the ledge. The ledge game is starting to be figured out by the community and it won't work for him forever.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I've had some tournament success with 3.0 Bowser, I regularly place in the top 8 in my area, but I don't exclusively use Bowser.

I think exclusively using Bowser is tournament suicide - he has no means of dealing with characters like Link and Zelda, even though I think his good (or decent) matchups quite outnumber his bad ones.

 

[deadjames]

I think exclusively using Bowser is tournament suicide - he has no means of dealing with characters like Link and Zelda, even though I think his good (or decent) matchups quite outnumber his bad ones.

I have no problem against either of those characters with Bowser, Marth and Sheik are far worse imo. Contrary to popular belief projectiles aren't what shuts Bowser down, a good grab game is which is what Marth and Sheik both have.

 

[Alex Night]

I have no problem against either of those characters with Bowser, Marth and Sheik are far worse imo. Contrary to popular belief projectiles aren't what shuts Bowser down, a good grab game is which is what Marth and Sheik both have.

It might not shut Bowser down, but it forces him to approach and Bowser has a terrible approach game. Bowser can have a terrible time with Zelda and Link. Zelda when used as a trap based character can put the Koopa King on lockdown and the Love Jump makes it hard for Bowser to chase her for any follow-ups. Nayru's Love can shut down any approach from Bowser when it is grounded due to tangibility and aerial Nayru can help follow up approaches when landing on the ground during the animation and she can follow up with another attack on Bowser sooner than when done on the ground. I have seen Bowsers fight against players like Zhime and Gardy who are both dedicated Zelda players and it was not pretty for Bowser.

Link has various means of locking down Bowser and keep him at bay with the Bow, Boomerang, and Bombs. If you can reflect them back at Link with Powershielding, then Link can just stand there or walk slightly forward to block the reflection with his Hylian Shield. His Hylian Shield blocks damage from any projectile thrown at him including the Aura Bomb and Ness' PK Flash from the front. Link also has a Zair which will go through any attack thrown at him and can pop Bowser into the air for a Fair, Nair, or Upair if hit with both hits from the Zair. Zair does a lot of damage on the Koopa King even if he Crouch Armors through it. I play Link as a main and Bowser is my easiest matchup. If Link has Bowser in a grab which is longer than Bowser's, then he's gonna be sent on a ride of pain from Up Tilts, Upsmashes, or even a regrab at low percents.

I'd say that Link is one of the Koopa King's worst matchups, if not the worst.

 

[deadjames]

I'd highly disagree, I still think Sheik is Bowser's worst MU.

 

[cmart]

I can outplay Sheiks. Falcons wreck my **** without effort.

 

[deadjames]

As Bowser I fear Ganon more than Falcon personally.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Marth and Sheik are far worse imo

Absolutely the opposite of my experience. Marth and sheik -> no problem at all.

Ganon and Falcon are both really really hard.

 

[deadjames]

Absolutely the opposite of my experience. Marth and sheik -> no problem at all.

Ganon and Falcon are both really really hard.

I think Ganon is even, but it's definitely hard against a good Ganon player, it's a very momentum based MU and Bowser relies heavily on keeping a favorable stage position and trying to force Ganon to approach, but Falcon is in Bowser's favor imo.

 

[Frost | Odds]

All my wtf. Are we playing the same character? Or is the missouri scene just terrible?

#shots

>.>

 

[deadjames]

Idk, maybe it's just because I have a lot of experience in those MUs there are a lot of good Ganon and Falcon players in my region.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I guess. I'm used to fighting really good marths and sheiks in frickin' melee, so the same matchup in PM just feels like straight up cheating.

 

[deadjames]

We have like one Sheik player and he's not the greatest, but I'm trying to help him get better and we have some mediocre Marths. Strong Bad's Marth always wrecks me in friendlies, but then again he's just better than me in general.

Edit: Well there's also Darkatma, but he lives in southern Missouri so I've never played against him, but I'd imagine playing his Sheik would be pretty scary.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Makes sense.

Your new avatar makes my Bowser Bits all tingly

 

[deadjames]

I also feel like Squirtle is pretty bad, it's like fighting a tiny faster version of yourself.

 

[Strong Badam]

I've had some tournament success with 3.0 Bowser, I regularly place in the top 8 in my area, but I don't exclusively use Bowser.

If I win the next tourney with 100% Bowser will he be viable?

Atma's in Eastern MO btw, St Louis, not southern.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Only if you beat The_Enlightenment (or whatever his name is) in bracket

 

[deadjames]

If I win the next tourney with 100% Bowser will he be viable?

Atma's in Eastern MO btw, St Louis, not southern.

I'm not the one arguing against his viability, I still think he's completely viable, I just like using a bunch of characters, and I guess St Louis is more east, but it's south of us too, I've just always thought of it as being South.

 

[the-meximan]

We have like one Sheik player and he's not the greatest, but I'm trying to help him get better and we have some mediocre Marths. Strong Bad's Marth always wrecks me in friendlies, but then again he's just better than me in general.

Edit: Well there's also Darkatma, but he lives in southern Missouri so I've never played against him, but I'd imagine playing his Sheik would be pretty scary.

ya my sheik isnt the greatest but you will help my sheik and teach me the ways of the bows

 

[Abeebo]

I've actually somewhat reversed my position on the forthog change.

...but slowhogging via the Melee method of putting the stick in a top corner notch doesn't work...

I've actually found that letting the stick go to neutral and letting the slide take you the rest of the way is more reliable than holding a top corner angle.

 

[Abeebo]

Is there a reason Bowser has 8 jumpsquat frames? Last time I checked, it's the longest jumpsquat by 2 frames. Why not 7, if he really 'needs' to be the slowest jumper?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Because he's so cute, the ground won't let him go.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

I can outplay Sheiks. Falcons wreck my **** without effort.

I just don't get it. I feel like Falcons are easy to outplay while Sheiks are very tough.

I think Bowser's worst (So very difficult) MUs are Fox, Sheik, Ivy and Falco. Possibly Link/Tink. It's mostly about how safely those chars can pressure Bowser or how much they can force him to approach (Which just kills Bowser)

 

[cmart]

Yeah I don't have much problem w/ Fox, Sheik, Falco. Falco especially isn't very threatening - Fox can at least bait you and Sheik can needle camp a bit. I struggle with ROB and Ganon, and lose badly to Falcon and Link.