King DeDeDe Move Analysis: WEEK 1 - Bair

[o-Serin-o]

KING DEDEDE MOVE ANALYSIS​

Because the DeDeDe boards don't have a complete understanding with our moveset, I made this because we need it. Reserved spot for each important move outside of our grabs.

Week 1 - Bair
Startup Frames: 5
Hitbox: 6-?
Cooldown Frames: ?

Projectile Cancel List​

Difficulty Rating:

•Easy
•Moderate
•Hard
•Very Difficult
•********

Mario - ALL

Luigi - ALL

Peach - ALL

Bowser - Only the first few flames of Neutral B

DK - N/A

Diddy - Peanuts and Semi-Aimed Backpack

Yoshi - Unable

Wario - ALL

Link - ALL except bombs

Zelda - ALL

Shiek - Unable

Ganondorf - N/A

Toon Link - ALL except bombs

Samus - ALL except fully charged Neutral B and Bomb

Zero Suit Samus - ALL

Pit - ALL

Ice Climbers - ALL excluding Blizzard

ROB - Slow Gyro-Fully Charged Gyro

Kirby - Unable

MK - N/A

King DeDeDe - **** dittos. Plus waddles don't count. Gordos will eat you.

Olimar - Pikman Throw (Side B)

Blue - Yes
Red - Yes
Yellow - Yes
Purple - Yes
White - Yes

Fox - Unable

Falco - Unable

Wolf - Unable

Captain Falcon - N/A

Pikachu - Thunder Jolt

Pokemon Trainer -

Charazard - See Bowser
Ivysaur - Unable
Squirtle - Push Projectile

Lucario - All non-fully charged Aura Spheres

Jigglypuff - N/A

Marth - N/A

Ike - N/A

Ness - PK Thunder and PK Fire (one flame)

Lucas - PK Thunder and PK Fire

Mr. Game & Watch - Some of Chef, then gets overwhelmed.

Snake - Cypher, Grenades (if thrown), Side B gets deflected

Sonic - All

S Tier Outranging List

•Outranges Easily
•Outranges
•Barely Outranges
•Trades hits

- Fair (trade hits with you taking 3%(?) and him taking full damage), Bair (a slower Fair, but with a bit more power; 4%(?) for us, full damage for Meta Knight), Dtilt (if we SH), Jab, Utilt, and Usmash (but no well respected MK would use this except for ****s and giggles.)

- Dtilt, Ftilt (trades hits), cancels out Mortar, Uair, Dair and Fair (lol... >_>)

- Fair, Bair, Usmash, Fsmash (beware SA frames), Dsmash, Dtilt, Utilt, Dair and jab

- Utilt, Fair, Ftilt, Dtilt, Dsmash, and Jab (trades hits, but we win), Uair and Bair

- Fsmash (first hit), Dsmash, Utilt, Jab, Bair, Uair, Dair, and Usmash.

Tips and Tricks

"Obviously..."
"Ohhhhh, okay."
"Wow"
"I will do that"

• People are going to expect a shieldgrab from the front. So when they attempt to attack from the back, SH bair OoS and Dash grab.

• SH bair into a reversed Inhale is a good mindgame for those that expect a second bair.

• WoP bairs should always end with a Fair on your last jump.

• I need more tips... contribute in the thread.

~More to Come~

 

[o-Serin-o]

King DeDeDe Move Analysis: WEEK 2 ____________

Reserved...

 

[o-Serin-o]

Reserved...

 

[o-Serin-o]

Reserved....

 

[Jupz]

3 posts reserved?

Anyway, Bair is just an insane move in general and is one of the best aerials in the game. It has great speed, decent range, great priority, and can kill and gimp. Combine this with Dedede's multiple jumps and it becomes a great wall of pain tool. Bair can be used for almost anything, to punishing, approaching, cancelling projectiles, getting up from the ledge and killing. Bair ***** 5/5 move

 

[o-Serin-o]

Take your time... And the 3 reserves are for other moves that need their own posts.

I was getting to the silly facts anyways... just not now.

 

[Commander_Beef]

This isn't a projectile...but add Snake's mortar shot.
I hope this thread goes well!

 

[IsmaR]

Mortar counts as a projectile.

lol'd @ blocking one needle

 

[o-Serin-o]

Do you know how hard it was to try to catch a needle in my foot? That **** is ********.

I don't count mortar as a projectile because it can't be reflected to Snake.

 

[Zip.]

wow im loving this so far(so many projectiles i didnt think i could cancel with b air >_<)

 

[o-Serin-o]

Frame Data Added.

Not sure though. Last time I've seen it tested, it was 6 frames. Nya, you can edit it when you get our frame data.

 

[Bwa]

I don't count mortar as a projectile because it can't be reflected to Snake.

Mario's side B "reflects" the mortar.

Good job for those tests.

Edit: I really thought Bair could cancel Ivysaur's side B =o

 

[o-Serin-o]

No updates til later. Going to work. Be back later

 

[momochuu]

When doing frame data, you can't just put "6" and that's it. I can't tell if that's start-up, the entire move, etc. Specifying is important. My frame data project is on hold until my computer is fixed.

 

[o-Serin-o]

I'll leave that spot for you then

 

[Gates]

Oh wow you actually did it.

Good **** Serin.

 

[CRASHiC]

Should we post some more theoretical analasis, like situations that we find useful for Bair, tricks with bair, etc?

 

[Jupz]

Yeah definately Crashic IMO, everyone knows how good Bair is, but we need times to use it, tricks etc. Although its Serins thread and I'm not sure if he wants it.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Should we post some more theoretical analasis, like situations that we find useful for Bair, tricks with bair, etc?

I was at work. I'm doing that now. Well, after I look to see what's been posted.

 

[CRASHiC]

We haven't posted anything yet.
I think someone should collect the percents for the stage spike kill percent on it.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Stage spike is soooo dependent on so many things that it is nearly impossible to test.

 

[Jupz]

Yeah, not worth testing IMO. Anyway if it happens in game, either they are on a high enough percent or they're not. Its not like with Utilt or Dsmash or other kill moves when you don't want to use it before it can kill them, you'll get the chance for a stage spike rarely.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Cmon, post!

 

[Jupz]

Bair's great for stopping aerial approaches, and this completely wrecks some characters that don't have any good ground approaches, such as Wario. It also beats most recoveries and so is one of the best gimping moves in the game. It can also be used to get off the ledge by letting go, jumping backwards, and bairing once or twice, easily followed up by a reversed Inhale.

Theres not really too much that can be said about Bair, it's a great move but I think we should do something not many people use or is underrated.

 

[OMG H4X]

Theres not really too much that can be said about Bair, it's a great move but I think we should do something not many people use or is underrated.

kinda agree here... id like to see dtilt, i think its somewhat underrated, and could be used more by myself and im sure others.



as for bair tricks... only thing i can think of is maybe: when opponents recovering high, "roll bair" (rolling my thumb from y to a) to do a rising bair, then c stick a bair right after the 1st. sometimes people tend to dodge the 1st bair, falling for the 2nd.

dont know if its as much of a trick, than just a technique i use to throw 2 bairs out quickly and easily.

 

[Bwa]

Sometimes I use full hop Bair OoS instead of Dair near the ledge, I can edguard if I hit them, if I don't I can reverse inhale / retreating Dair or Bair / FF airdoge and try to grab. Not safe but still interesting as a mindgame.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Dtilt was next anyways.

 

[OMG H4X]

thats whats up

 

[Jupz]

Awesome Dtilt. I think we should also do Nair, Far, and Dair soon.

 

[OMG H4X]

is it week 2 yet?? this was made in august....

 

[AnDaLe]

dang. ur working

 

[Jupz]

Serins not allowed to post for a week lol.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I know that bair is an awesome move but I still don't think it should be spammed just like that. After playing some friendlies with some really campy MK players at the last tournament I've been to I got around to realize that a fresh backair is D3s most practical, least situational and thus best KO move. To be honest I'm pretty sure that you should NEVER use bair when you could also use another move - even if it's utilt. I know that utilt is a lot more powerful than bair and it's also harder to DI but it's a too good a move in many match-ups due to it's awesome attributes (16% damage I think and partly invincible) to not use it whenever you can.

Well to pick up my point again I'm using MK as an example now to show why bair is the best KO move. It's actually quite simple...it's a lot easier to beat MK if you rack up 150% damage by using utilt and finishing with bair than rack damage with bair and try to kill him at 100% with utilt. A smart, patient MK will NOT get hit by the utilt once he's over 90% but he can't avoid getting hit by a fresh bair at 150%. I've seen many D3 players losing a whole stock against MKs because they tried in vain to him the MK with utilt but always failed. The bair was completely stale, which allowed the MK to live up to 200%.

If you have the choice between racking dmg with utilt / kill with bair and racking dmg with bair / kill with utilt the first option is almost always the better one. Utilt is really way too good a move to be misused as a mere KO move. Again, using the MK match-up as an example utilt can't do anything that bair can't: Beating the tornado, punishing shielded Shuttle Loops and dealing with MKs dair camping. These are the most obvious uses for bair but utilt does the trick just as good. So, I don't see why you shouldn't use bair as your main KO move in that match-up. Don't spam it. Use it if you have no better move to use but against MK one of the tilts or a grab can do everything that bair can do as well. EXCEPT KILLING. So keep it as fresh as you can.

...

Dtilt is a move that I really learned to appreciate just recently and it should be used more in general. It has an awkward and strangely long lasting hitbox that beats move you wouldn't expect (G&W bair) as well as spotdodges. I don't know the exact frame data but it's really fast and covers a lot of range in less time than the grab does. The tip of dtilt looks pretty safe on shield and since D3 crouches his hurtbox sometimes evades aerial moves (although it doesn't happen a lot) as well. If a character starts dashing towards you dtilt always seems to be a really good choice. It's one of D3s best close range moves and since he his options in close range are usually limited to grab this move should be used a lot more often. I find it to be especially effective against Marth, G&W and Diddy Kong.

 

[Commander_Beef]

^ ^ ^ This man is absolutely correct. It's better to use more up tilt, down air, down tilt and grabs for the damage and a fresh back air for the kill. I was constantly thinking about how this can be a better idea for a long time, but this strategy will be slightly harder since no other aerial we have has as much priority. But still..we should start this up.

 

[CRASHiC]

It all depends on your approach to DDD, weather you think he does best in air or on ground.

 

[Jupz]

It also depends on the character you're versing, like against Wario I use Bair to attack most of the time, and Fair or Utilt to kill.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Not today. Too tired.

 

[OMG H4X]

beats move you wouldn't expect (G&W bair)

wow awesome thanks!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It all depends on your approach to DDD, weather you think he does best in air or on ground.

It depends on the match-up imo. Against some characters I prefer to play a ground based game with lots of tilts, grabs and dsmash techchases against others I try to play a good aerial game with aerials and inhale.

Against MK, G&W, Marth I prefer to stay on the ground because they'll try to zone and juggle you. Against Wario, Diddy Kong and Falco I try to stay in the air most of the time. The best tactic is obviously making smart use of both approaches most of the time...

It also depends on the character you're versing, like against Wario I use Bair to attack most of the time, and Fair or Utilt to kill.

This is obviously true. In some match-ups you just can't kill the opponent wihout troubles regardless of the KO move so you're better of aircamping and stalling time with a WoP.

wow awesome thanks!

It's not easy to do though. In most cases you'll trade hits but that's already quite good. If you get familiar with the hitbox and also look at the animation of the move (look at D3s position while doing it - he's leaning slightly forward while lying on the ground ... I can't explain it very well though...) you'll get a feeling for it.

G&W is also a good example that shows how to not overuse bair. Most people seem to like trading hits with his turtle by bairing back but that brings up the issue I explained above again because it's by far the best KO move against G&W. The best way to punish the turtle is either to trade hits/beat it with dtilt or by powershielding the landing hitbox (just shield the regular hits and then PS the landing hit) and grabbing him. Both are good ways to deal with the move without leaving the ground (which is imo your preferred tactic vs G&W) and it keeps your bair fresh.

 

[o-Serin-o]

And where the **** have you been? We need more information like this.