K. Rool's Kremling Kutthroats: PM BKupa666 for an Invite to the New K. Rool Thread

[MandoBardanJusik]

Also, anyone else think we're likely to get the 3 characters in the code by the end of the year? I mean think about it, the original 2 were at least partially in development at the time of Royu/Lucas's release in order to be in the code, and the third one may be tied to the ballot moreso, and is at least in the game if not playable at a base level yet. I'm going to stick to one of my hunches that one of the reasons they haven't shown off these proclaimed new characters(or anyone out of the core four) is because they will have to reveal the starting roster at once, leaving only hidden characters, and that one of those could be our King, who if he's making a comeback in spinoffs would suddenly seem very self apparent for the ballot

 

[Powerman293]

Sorry for this discussion not relating to K Rool but after thinking about it, I've been confused as to why Sakurai went to work on the 3 clones at the end of development ratger than focus development on Mewtwo. I know he's said in the past that clones do not replace a character spot sonce relativley so little work has to go into them, but I'd think they could have used that time to get started on Mewtwo.

 

[Bananija]

The main reason that I believed they are talking about the inklings is that one of them posted that it was them and then deleted is tweet.

 

[Burruni]

Also, anyone else think we're likely to get the 3 characters in the code by the end of the year? I mean think about it, the original 2 were at least partially in development at the time of Royu/Lucas's release in order to be in the code, and the third one may be tied to the ballot moreso, and is at least in the game if not playable at a base level yet. I'm going to stick to one of my hunches that one of the reasons they haven't shown off these proclaimed new characters(or anyone out of the core four) is because they will have to reveal the starting roster at once, leaving only hidden characters, and that one of those could be our King, who if he's making a comeback in spinoffs would suddenly seem very self apparent for the ballot

I see Wolf and one big newcomer before the end of the month and at least one crammed in for holiday.

Edit:

Sorry for this discussion not relating to K Rool but after thinking about it, I've been confused as to why Sakurai went to work on the 3 clones at the end of development ratger than focus development on Mewtwo. I know he's said in the past that clones do not replace a character spot sonce relativley so little work has to go into them, but I'd think they could have used that time to get started on Mewtwo.

Because they were already worked on as alternate costumes and had active moveset data they'd minorly edit to make the characters.

Mewtwo in terms of model, animations, and attack data would have to be built from the ground up as Melee's data is too old to properly use, by word of God.

 

[NotLiquid]

I think it could be K. Rool if they saw him zooming ahead early on, and saw how popular and highly requested he was even before the ballot as well. Simply seeing all the requests for him online, they could've been "we just need a little bit more info, how will be fare in a worldwide ballot?" and if he also did well there within the first month, he's a for-sure set pick.


Inklings, even if started at the earliest possible point, would likely not be ready in time for October. Why?


Clearly they had no intention of doing Inklings at the time Splatoon launched, otherwise they wouldn't have made the costumes, they would've said something like "stay tuned for Inklings coming in Smash!" If anything, they would've planned Inklings for Splatoon's launch, and Nintendo did not realize it would be such a massive success, either. By E3 they knew it was popular, but that still likely wouldn't be enough to justify it yet. They'd have to wait longer and see it skyrocket before finally deciding, and by roughly the end of June/early July is likely when they'd finally settle on creating Inklings. And that's simply not enough time for a mid-to-late October release. That'd have to be November or December.


Maybe they did them earlier, but the timing just doesn't work very well. Whereas K. Rool, they would've known he was popular, but maybe didn't anticipate precisely how popular he'd be, but if he skyrocketed to the ballot right away, that's when they decided him, an easy month or two (early-to-late May) in advance of them deciding to do Inklings. (They probably finished Ryu, Roy, and Lucas by May, so that's when they'd need to start another new character as well).


If they announced a character 1-2 months in advance I could see it being Inklings, but this seems to be implying the character is likely to release very soon, probably by the end of October, and that's a bit too tight for a brand new character I think.


But that's just me. And yes, I do believe they started Ryu once the game launched. Roy and Lucas might've split the development time during this point.

It's been five months since Splatoon launched - with Sakurai having stated that the average development time for one character being six or so months. As much as I believe K. Rool is popular I do not believe he was popular enough to completely blow the ballot to smithereens and warrant immediate work on.

With Splatoon it at least makes sense as Nintendo wouldn't just have had to look at sales numbers to properly gauge the eventual viability (which was the only thing that was clear that exploded out of the gate). Pre-order data, marketing research and so forth would already have done the job for them before the game even released, and usually as a big company you have a proper estimation of how well a game will do. It'd also make perfect sense to leverage Nintendo's most prolific new franchise right now for the holidays when there's virtually nothing else to show. K. Rool is great and I expect him at some point but do I realistically believe that he is the character Nintendo wants to leverage an existing title for a holiday period when they have nothing else to show for? Nah. Splatoon is a perfect fit for that - it's as popular as ever right now and the inclusion makes sense for the mass market. There's no saying that the character needs to be released this month either. It could be slated for a November release for all we know.

Point is; there's no rush for them to include K. Rool. Smash DLC will live on for a while and the ballot just ended. They don't have a new DK game to market, they don't have a new K. Rool inclusion elsewhere that demands his attention. They can relax and take their time. Meanwhile, Splatoon is a new game that has sold tremendously well and has brought in a new audience in such a short time. It's a character that has a boat load of crossover appeal and Nintendo are definitely going to ride that wave while it's still high.

Plus, you're missing one of the most important parts about this rumor if it's in any way true - it's a character that wasn't decided based on the ballot, which is the most visible way that K. Rool has gotten any exposure in recent history.

Also your point about Mii costumes... doesn't make sense. Why would they openly state "hey we're making Inkling DLC for Smash"?

 

[Dudery and FAITH forever]

Happy Birthday!
Is your birthday the 11th or the 12th because I just turned 18 Yesterday too! (11th)
In other news, I finally beat DKC2 yesterday, (I think I've had it since I was 5). Definetly the most fun boss fight in a long time. But man, it was hard avoiding spoilers for the fight in this thread and it was really cool to finally see the moves everyone always talks about!
You know how Sakurai has to see the character dancing? Well I see K Rool dancing more fluently in my head then any of the other characters in my DLC list. He's just so perfect!
I should probably make a moveset soon since I'm so hyped for him right now.

mine is the 12th of october,happy late birthday to you aswell!

and a big thank you to everyone for the kind words and for wishing me a birthday!

and for @bellboy64
all i wished for was a good day with no anxiety,sickness,or fighting....i dont really need anything special(but k rool would still be an awesome gift)

 

[JaidynReiman]

It's been five months since Splatoon launched - with Sakurai having stated that the average development time for one character being six or so months. As much as I believe K. Rool is popular I do not believe he was popular enough to completely blow the ballot to smithereens and warrant immediate work on.

With Splatoon it at least makes sense as Nintendo wouldn't just have had to look at sales numbers to properly gauge the eventual viability (which was the only thing that was clear that exploded out of the gate). Pre-order data, marketing research and so forth would already have done the job for them before the game even released, and usually as a big company you have a proper estimation of how well a game will do. It'd also make perfect sense to leverage Nintendo's most prolific new franchise right now for the holidays when there's virtually nothing else to show. K. Rool is great and I expect him at some point but do I realistically believe that he is the character Nintendo wants to leverage an existing title for a holiday period when they have nothing else to show for? Nah. Splatoon is a perfect fit for that - it's as popular as ever right now and the inclusion makes sense for the mass market. There's no saying that the character needs to be released this month either. It could be slated for a November release for all we know.

Point is; there's no rush for them to include K. Rool. Smash DLC will live on for a while and the ballot just ended. They don't have a new DK game to market, they don't have a new K. Rool inclusion elsewhere that demands his attention. They can relax and take their time. Meanwhile, Splatoon is a new game that has sold tremendously well and has brought in a new audience in such a short time. It's a character that has a boat load of crossover appeal and Nintendo are definitely going to ride that wave while it's still high.

Plus, you're missing one of the most important parts about this rumor if it's in any way true - it's a character that wasn't decided based on the ballot, which is the most visible way that K. Rool has gotten any exposure in recent history.

Also your point about Mii costumes... doesn't make sense. Why would they openly state "hey we're making Inkling DLC for Smash"?

There's multiple problems. The biggest one is they outright didn't think Splatoon would be that much of a success. That right there is the biggest problem.


In regards to K. Rool, yes, they said the character wasn't decided based on the ballot. However, some of them, apparently at one point even SeanHicks, also stated that the only reason this is believed is because of the timing of the character's reveal and not because the character isn't a hugely popular character who COULD have been a high ballot winner. Hence why Stealth said he didn't "think" the character got in from the ballot, because the timing is just after the ballot finished so they obviously started development before it ended, they're not a ballot winner (even though that's very fault logic).


Nintendo did not think Splatoon would be a huge success before it launched, and most likely did not plan Inklings immediately. Six months would be next month, so unless they're announcing a character a month in advance, the timing with Splatoon makes it very iffy.


Now, it could very well be Inklings, but this is my main reason for doubting it. The timing is just way off.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

If you say so and don't blame me for ruining anyone's appetities.

"Whoah, King K. Rool looks sexier than I had imagined without his trademark gear. Just check out those chiseled yellow man breasts, them sexy muscular scaly arms, and that more feral stance to top it all. Now the only thing missing is his glorious Krocodong and I can gaze at this all day."

Aaaaaaaand chances are that I made plenty of people sick by quoting her.

And of course you would spread my joke to the Kuttthroats of this thread. Still shows how huge of a King K. Rool fangirl I was when I was a little adventurer.

I, like the rest of you, had been wanting this fat sexy Kremling in Smash since the Melee days and the wait for him is starting to take a toll on my sanity. I've been lurking these threads for a while, watching all of you cheer and work together like a well planned pirate crew. The day Sakurai finally adds Rool in Smash would be the day I would finally shout his name to the whole world. So I would be honored to become a full fledged Kuttthroat like my sugar bear and fight with y'all until the fat Gnawty sings.

 

[Tortilla Noggin]

And of course you would spread my joke to the Kuttthroats of this thread. Still shows how huge of a King K. Rool fangirl I was when I was a little adventurer.

I, like the rest of you, had been wanting this fat sexy Kremling in Smash since the Melee days and the wait for him is starting to take a toll on my sanity. I've been lurking these threads for a while, watching all of you cheer and work together like a well planned pirate crew. The day Sakurai finally adds Rool in Smash would be the day I would finally shout his name to the whole world. So I would be honored to become a full fledged Kuttthroat like my sugar bear and fight with y'all until the fat Gnawty sings.

Does that mean you're...

One of us, one of us!?

Welcome aboard, Kutthroat!

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

And of course you would spread my joke to the Kuttthroats of this thread. Still shows how huge of a King K. Rool fangirl I was when I was a little adventurer.

I, like the rest of you, had been wanting this fat sexy Kremling in Smash since the Melee days and the wait for him is starting to take a toll on my sanity. I've been lurking these threads for a while, watching all of you cheer and work together like a well planned pirate crew. The day Sakurai finally adds Rool in Smash would be the day I would finally shout his name to the whole world. So I would be honored to become a full fledged Kuttthroat like my sugar bear and fight with y'all until the fat Gnawty sings.

And now you are one of us, my dear. Welcome to the Kuttthroat's Salty Domain and enjoy the stay as we anticipate the day he gets his chance!

 

[NotLiquid]

There's multiple problems. The biggest one is they outright didn't think Splatoon would be that much of a success. That right there is the biggest problem.


In regards to K. Rool, yes, they said the character wasn't decided based on the ballot. However, some of them, apparently at one point even SeanHicks, also stated that the only reason this is believed is because of the timing of the character's reveal and not because the character isn't a hugely popular character who COULD have been a high ballot winner. Hence why Stealth said he didn't "think" the character got in from the ballot, because the timing is just after the ballot finished so they obviously started development before it ended, they're not a ballot winner (even though that's very fault logic).


Nintendo did not think Splatoon would be a huge success before it launched, and most likely did not plan Inklings immediately. Six months would be next month, so unless they're announcing a character a month in advance, the timing with Splatoon makes it very iffy.


Now, it could very well be Inklings, but this is my main reason for doubting it. The timing is just way off.

Stealth suggesting the character was likely not topping ballots actively goes against K. Rool since he was the only one to consistently place high on several research polls while the Inklings were historically and consistently placing several pegs down.

You're still not exactly convincing me that this is more likely to be K. Rool than Inklings, especially since like I said, pre-release management already estimates how big a feature like Splatoon is poised to impact the market. Nintendo would have known easily the moment shipment and pre-order numbers were managed which was info at least Nintendo UK were heavily positive over way before the launch even happened. Again, you haven't contended the notion that a single ballot character would be popular enough to immediately start work on for a balance sheet in the holiday release schedule.

To say Nintendo did not expect Splatoon to be a huge success is completely disingenuous denial when the marketing for this game was pushed harder than a lot of Mario games even get.

 

[RyuhoFox]

Im honestly thinking at this point that Inklings are pretty likely considering what stealth_(despite how egocentric they are on smashfaqs) and others have seemingly pointed out. I was pretty much only brought here because of looking into info for the rumor and Im not a huge K. Rool fan myself but I hope that you guys will get him at some point. At the very least if it is Inklings it will destroy the mii costume argument.
But yeah anyway I wish you guys and gals all the luck and while I want Dixie more from DKC I support your choice as well

 

[NotLiquid]

Just to note, that GameFAQs account under Stealth's name is most likely not him since he used to have a different account there and the new one only dates to a few days ago. It's most likely a copycat as he's been spouting quite a lot of nonsense that doesn't even line up with previously said things and with a lot of grammatical incorrections

 

[JaidynReiman]

Stealth suggesting the character was likely not topping ballots actively goes against K. Rool since he was the only one to consistently place high on several research polls while the Inklings were historically and consistently placing several pegs down.

You're still not exactly convincing me that this is more likely to be K. Rool than Inklings, especially since like I said, pre-release management already estimates how big a feature like Splatoon is poised to impact the market. Nintendo would have known easily the moment shipment and pre-order numbers were managed which was info at least Nintendo UK were heavily positive over way before the launch even happened. Again, you haven't contended the notion that a single ballot character would be popular enough to immediately start work on for a balance sheet in the holiday release schedule.

Um, what? Stealth never said the character wasn't likely topping the ballots. He just said it likely wasn't a ballot winner. Which could mean literally anything. The problem with that is Inklings are pretty high too, so if they were thinking it wasn't a character topping the ballots, Inklings would likely be too close to the top as well.

But if they're ready two weeks after the ballot, that is where many people online don't think characters could've been chosen from the ballot. I keep seeing all over the place, both on Smashboards and other sites I check out, that they don't think ballot winners will be started until the ballot closes. If ballot winners are all we've got left, then they haven't worked on characters in months (a ridiculous idea), and we've likely had characters in development since at least Mewtwo released, or they at least started the next characters they planned to have after Roy, Ryu, and Lucas.


Anyway, I haven't said K. Rool is more likely, I just think the Inklings are in a bit of a tight situation. The timing is way off, so I don't think we should put all our stock 100% into Inklings. That's all I'm saying.

To say Nintendo did not expect Splatoon to be a huge success is completely disingenuous denial when the marketing for this game was pushed harder than a lot of Mario games even get.

...THEY SAID IT THEMSELVES. I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I wouldn't say it if they didn't already say it themselves.


http://playeressence.com/nintendo-didnt-expect-splatoon-to-sell-as-well-as-it-has-been-doing/

http://phoneia.com/nintendo-on-splatoon-we-did-not-expect-a-new-brand-so-successful/


Unfortunately since its been months its difficult to find articles right at the front talking about it, but I found a couple. Nintendo clearly said that they did not anticipate Splatoon's success. They weren't optimistic, but they promoted it because they wanted it to succeed. Promoting a game heavily does not always lead to massive success.

 

[RyuhoFox]

Just to note, that GameFAQs account under Stealth's name is most likely not him since he used to have a different account there and the new one only dates to a few days ago. It's most likely a copycat as he's been spouting quite a lot of nonsense that doesn't even line up with previously said things and with a lot of grammatical incorrections

From what I heard they had confirmed on twitter it was their new account there. Not sure if that info is correct or not though. They seemed to have trolled their grinder account into purgatory there last I remember

 

[NotLiquid]

...THEY SAID IT THEMSELVES. I'm not pulling this out of my ***, I wouldn't say it if they didn't already say it themselves.


http://playeressence.com/nintendo-didnt-expect-splatoon-to-sell-as-well-as-it-has-been-doing/

http://phoneia.com/nintendo-on-splatoon-we-did-not-expect-a-new-brand-so-successful/


Unfortunately since its been months its difficult to find articles right at the front talking about it, but I found a couple. Nintendo clearly said that they did not anticipate Splatoon's success. They weren't optimistic, but they promoted it because they wanted it to succeed. Promoting a game heavily does not always lead to massive success.

You completely glossed over my point about the knowledge of Splatoon's success being something they'd be privy well before the actual sales numbers come in. That kind of market research is something that's... custom, and that'd still be at a timely enough matter for them to hash out character pre-planning.

 

[Someguyyoulikelydontknow]

almost 1200 pages. We're the new "ridley thread" with our amount of pages. This thread has achieved that superpower-tier where Nintendo and many others MUST have seen us. Hype.

Which is why I'm aggravated that Sakurai hasn't said one thing about K. Rool yet.

 

[SuperSmashSean]

So what did I mi..

Oh. So the "leakers" said it was the inklings?

 

[Burruni]

So what did I mi..

Oh. So the "leakers" said it was the inklings?

No
One of them joked about it and failed horribly at damage control.

 

[SuperSmashSean]

No
One of them joked about it and failed horribly at damage control.

Ah ok, thanks.

 

[FalKoopa]

Ah ok, thanks.

I'll just add that none is sure whether his initial tweet "Why be a kid when you can be a squid?" was serious or not.

 

[NotLiquid]

Real talk guys

Maintaining a conscious excitement based off of something so arguably sketchy for as long as this is quite frustrating. I just hope there's at least some gold at the end of this rainbow, no matter who it is.

 

[Zombie Saurian]

Wow, that Sean guy is absolutely HORRIBLE at damage control.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Does that mean you're...

One of us, one of us!?

Welcome aboard, Kutthroat!

Well that's a nice way of welcoming someone, showing off one of the best scenes from the entire DKC cartoon (I had to binge watch the entire series online since my people got the animated series too late). Rool was as great of a singer and dancer as DK in that scene.

And now you are one of us, my dear. Welcome to the Kuttthroat's Salty Domain and enjoy the stay as we anticipate the day he gets his chance!

Oh believe me, I will enjoy this place as much as I enjoy DeviantArt. Thank you for finally convincing me to show my support here, baby.

 

[TheWozny]

Guys, let's stop arguing amongst ourselves and look at what was said. This "Inner circle" of DLC prodigies suddenly have one member post something obviously relating to inklings, within a time frame that allows for a response? Really? The Inkling thing is the equivalent of the gif of the Mii throwing bananas at the K. Rool Mii: A tease. And I'll be frankly honest, I don't think the KNOW who it is. You don't think that more people "know" who this person is? The former NoA employee only "hinting" at who it may be? Last time a leak happened, we had direct footage and screenshots of the characters. Sure, theres a slight chance these "elites" know who it is, but for whatever reason they keep their mouth shut. You could say it's due to not wanting the Big N to rip em apart, or whatever, but I believe they don't know who the exact character will be. They only know things about THE dlc character, not THE character itself.

 

[MandoBardanJusik]

Say, you guys in a more general note, here's a thought, so Tennis games tend to have clone characters, since then they can resuse a base skeleton/animations/mesh without too much work other than some mild coding changes. So lets say hypothetically if K.Rool got into Mario Tennis Ultra Smash how would you guys react/think about if King K.Rool had the Kaptain, Baron, and Krusha personas as playable clones? And how would you want them to be unique

 

[Burruni]

Say, you guys in a more general note, here's a thought, so Tennis games tend to have clone characters, since then they can resuse a base skeleton/animations/mesh without too much work other than some mild coding changes. So lets say hypothetically if K.Rool got into Mario Tennis Ultra Smash how would you guys react/think about if King K.Rool had the Kaptain, Baron, and Krusha personas as playable clones? And how would you want them to be unique

I'd expect to see clones like Dry Bowser first, but Kaptain due to different specials and having more curves to his shots.

 

[Banjodorf]

I missed a whole lot today, but if it actually turns out to be Inklings that's good for the Kostume K. Rool thing.

That's really all I have to add because who knows what's even going on right now.

 

[Joeyd123]

Say, you guys in a more general note, here's a thought, so Tennis games tend to have clone characters, since then they can resuse a base skeleton/animations/mesh without too much work other than some mild coding changes. So lets say hypothetically if K.Rool got into Mario Tennis Ultra Smash how would you guys react/think about if King K.Rool had the Kaptain, Baron, and Krusha personas as playable clones? And how would you want them to be unique

Not happening lol. Not even worth thinking about

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Ok I heard inklings got leaked

I'm not even bothering

I WANT TO BE SURPRISED/HYPED FOR PEAK SAKE!!!!

Please be a character that's not inklings that day.

 

[MandoBardanJusik]

Not happening lol. Not even worth thinking about

It's called a for fun discussion, and it's not impossible, since K.Rool has been in sports spinoffs before, and if he is making a widespread comeback there's no reason not to use him. Also clones are a Mario spin-off staple

I'd expect to see clones like Dry Bowser first, but Kaptain due to different specials and having more curves to his shots.

Honestly, K.Rool's personas would take about the same amount of time as say Dry bowser(who about 60% new model and 100% new textures), while the different identies require no modification to K.Rool's base appearance other than replacing his gear , and most of it's close to his body to not major animation work. Also interesting idea, I would think that Baron with his helipack would have a higher jump, while Krusha would have more power shots

 

[SmashAdr]

i feel like it cant be Inklings, its too soon

 

[mynameisBlade]

Well....HAPPY 1200 PAGES!!! Wheeeewwwww!!! Are we flying through these or what..?! King K. Rool's return, HERE WE COME!!!

 

[InsaneHippo]

Say, you guys in a more general note, here's a thought, so Tennis games tend to have clone characters, since then they can resuse a base skeleton/animations/mesh without too much work other than some mild coding changes. So lets say hypothetically if K.Rool got into Mario Tennis Ultra Smash how would you guys react/think about if King K.Rool had the Kaptain, Baron, and Krusha personas as playable clones? And how would you want them to be unique

that would be really dumb because theyve never had a character such as that. the only characters whove had multiple versions of themselves are mario and peach with the babies and theyre significantly different. if you want to count metal mario and dry bowser even though theyve been referred to as completely separate characters from mario and bowser, they still are more than "x but with different clothes". that and k rool is too unimportant to the mario series specifically to deserve clones of himself.

 

[RyuhoFox]

i feel like it cant be Inklings, its too soon

Considering Roy was in Melee before his game even came out I wouldnt say the Inklings being in would be too soon

 

[Tortilla Noggin]

that would be really dumb because theyve never had a character such as that. the only characters whove had multiple versions of themselves are mario and peach with the babies and theyre significantly different.

Mario Tennis Open on the 3DS has seven or eight Yoshi variants.

 

[MandoBardanJusik]

that would be really dumb because theyve never had a character such as that. the only characters whove had multiple versions of themselves are mario and peach with the babies and theyre significantly different. if you want to count metal mario and dry bowser even though theyve been referred to as completely separate characters from mario and bowser, they still are more than "x but with different clothes". that and k rool is too unimportant to the mario series specifically to deserve clones of himself.

Heh, yeah of course the possibility isn't high, but that isn't the point, the point is how would you react if it DID happen, beyond the odds.

 

[TaichiYaegashi]

Considering Roy was in Melee before his game even came out I wouldnt say the Inklings being in would be too soon

This and how Greninja got in when they only had concept art (at that time) to work off of.

 

[Burruni]

It's called a for fun discussion, and it's not impossible, since K.Rool has been in sports spinoffs before, and if he is making a widespread comeback there's no reason not to use him. Also clones are a Mario spin-off staple

Honestly, K.Rool's personas would take about the same amount of time as say Dry bowser(who about 60% new model and 100% new textures), while the different identies require no modification to K.Rool's base appearance other than replacing his gear , and most of it's close to his body to not major animation work. Also interesting idea, I would think that Baron with his helipack would have a higher jump, while Krusha would have more power shots

I meant in priority, not ease.

 

[InsaneHippo]

Mario Tennis Open on the 3DS has seven or eight Yoshi variants.

thats completely different though - all the qr characters were basically recolors. it wasnt like they were in the game from the start. also, yoshi is an incredibly popular and important character to the mario series, k rool was only in super sluggers.

edit: also i cant remember, didnt they share a spot with yoshi? if not then i guess they count alongside baby mario/peach but still, its a different situation.