Just putting this out there.

[MoosyDoosy]

Why are you divining Diddy's OP/not-OP-ness off of who one person plays in tournament?

He's just tired of losing to that Diddy and refuses to change his playstyle to beat that Diddy.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Its funny, a lot of people want diddy nerfs but no one plays with him. he has all the tools needed to turn all matchups to just about even with the exception of maybe a couple of the cast just by changing playstyle, and only has a few good matchups. Bananas have been overnerfed in actuality. While i agree, that you should not trip for having a banana thrown at you, and the idea of tripping and nothing you can do about it from that is stupid, I do not believe you should be able to tech being dair ed unto a banana or you simply running over it. Or at the very least the tech window should be lower for sheer ignorance. To compensate, while I love forward smash, The knock back is obsurd, killing fox at 50 % with it off of a glide toss down setup can only be justified for so long. Aside from that, a minor buff to down smash base knockback, tweaks to fair's knockback growth and a small increase in up throw's knockback growth are the only things really missing on diddy to stop a lot of the complaints. I actually like the idea of being able to angle up b toward the stage in a way to make the barrels come out intentionally. His recovery is even worse than game and watch without it.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

He is just a good character. Top 10 But requires a ton of creativity to play well with

 

[Ralph Cecil]

You can do things if a nanner is thrown at you though lol. Tech it or throw out a hitbox that clashes with it.
EDIT:Actually I can't tell what you stance is on tripping lol. Looks like you keep dancing back and forth with wording. D:

Also something else I want to point out about the Brawl players Praxis mentioned.

Seagull: Best Brawl wolf in the nation(probably period right now since I don't see any Wolf's in Japan or Europe doing any kind of work) and placed top 8/10 at this year's Apex.

Boss: When he still played Brawl was the best in the nation for 2 characters and had some pretty good placements for playing low tier characters.

Junebug: Arguably best in the nation for Lucario, but at the very least he was top 2/3.

The pattern here is that some of the people who have picked up Diddy Kong have experience playing at a top/high level and have shown that they can figure out character's and optimize their potential better than others. Nothing else to really comment on since either Praxis already covered it or it's another person saying what everyone else has said about the barrels.

 

[GeZ]

You can do things if a nanner is thrown at you though lol. Tech it or throw out a hitbox that clashes with it.

You can also catch them without much difficulty.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I have a Brawl background so I keep forgetting about the other ways to deal with nanners now that dash attacks don't pick up items lmao.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

You can do things if a nanner is thrown at you though lol. Tech it or throw out a hitbox that clashes with it.
EDIT:Actually I can't tell what you stance is on tripping lol. Looks like you keep dancing back and forth with wording. D:

Also something else I want to point out about the Brawl players Praxis mentioned.

Seagull: Best Brawl wolf in the nation(probably period right now since I don't see any Wolf's in Japan or Europe doing any kind of work) and placed top 8/10 at this year's Apex.

Boss: When he still played Brawl was the best in the nation for 2 characters and had some pretty good placements for playing low tier characters.

Junebug: Arguably best in the nation for Lucario, but at the very least he was top 2/3.

The pattern here is that some of the people who have picked up Diddy Kong have experience playing at a top/high level and have shown that they can figure out character's and optimize their potential better than others. Nothing else to really comment on since either Praxis already covered it or it's another person saying what everyone else has said about the barrels.

I am OK with tripping, I play the character, I was saying that getting a banana thrown at you should be tech able, but you shouldn't be able to tech walking over one at your own free will. (Apologize for grammar being confusing, cant see how well sentences flow typing on cell) my stance is You probably deserve to fall if you walk over a stationary projectile no wavedash. Also what does junebug seagull and boss have to do with my stance on bananas or the character? I was merely stating what tweaks would be justifiable if the character had to be changed. I think he is fine as is, but my own crew tells me the character is cheap.

 

[batistabus]

I think good characters should be targetting the range of Melee Peach/Sheik/Marth, but Fox is the upper limit on "good".

That's fair, I'd agree with that.

As to your top players comment, I want to point out that a lot of the best Diddies were very, very high level Brawl players. Junebug was one of the very top in his region, and Boss was a mid tier legend, hands down unquestioned the best Brawl player with multiple characters. Seagull Joe and I were also very notable mid tier mains. Bladewise is a top 40 Melee player.

I'm talking about great on a national scale. Sure, players can make low tiers look good compared to what other players have been able to accomplish, but that doesn't mean they have amazing results at nationals. I know that Boss and Junebug are really good players, but that doesn't mean they'd make Top 8 at Apex. Even that isn't a sufficiently good standard since the game is so new and matchup inexperience is huge for players that have the potential to be better but don't take the game as seriously.

No one who thinks he's OP seems to acknowledge that I keep saying this: Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Link, Pit, Lucas, Lucario, Mario, Mewtwo, and possibly Metaknight and possibly Snake are all probably better than Diddy in the current build IMO. Kirby and Game & Watch get better placements in tournament as well.

They're all better based on what? What results does Lucario have? Even if Diddy has a satisfactory potential, that doesn't mean he doesn't need some tweaks. For example, 2.1 Ike was probably still worse than Fox, but his hit boxes and rewards were too great relative to what the player had to do. The same thing was done with Bowser's fair, for example. I'm not saying Diddy's free by any means, but I think a few characters in the current build could receive this treatment.

Two bananas is a big deal for Diddy. Take out the second banana and banana logic loses a lot of depth. You can't throw a naner from a distance because your opponent can tech the trip or shield it and now he has your banana. The second naner is Diddy's counter to the opponent getting his naner (putting them on even ground and creating an ensuing struggle).

So you have to use bananas more conservatively/intelligently? So what? Diddy has great maneuverability, a very fast/far toss, and can pick up bananas during his dash attack, which gives him a huge advantage as far as regaining control of it. If Diddy falls apart without bananas, which have properties that are completely unique among the PM cast collective moveset, what exactly is being rewarded here? I like unique, and I don't think he shouldn't have any bananas, but I just don't see two being necessary. I also don't like when two high level players spend 5 seconds just tripping over each other, but I guess that's just personal preference.

who want Diddy to be nerfed despite him not being that great, despite his placements not being that high.

I don't want Diddy nerfed, I want his moveset to be adjusted. I don't think Diddy is OP, and I might even place him similarly to how you do. I'm not basing these criticisms on Xanadu results...

"Oh, we just don't know if he's OP because top players aren't playing him" is a stupid argument- if he was OP, top players would pick him up. Good players gravitate towards good characters.

That is not a stupid argument. If Rolex was the only good player playing Snake, we wouldn't know half of the things Professor Pro has done. Maybe top players aren't picking him because he's weird? Because they don't find him fun? Because they think his monkey shrieks are annoying? Because they don't have any nostalgia for the character? Some top players will pick up characters they can recognize as good at first glance, but that doesn't mean they don't have the potential. Just look at Puff, Peach, and even Yoshi in Melee.

Why are you divining Diddy's OP/not-OP-ness off of who one person plays in tournament?

Not talking about OP-ness...changes in PM aren't always just "buff" or "nerf".

As far as I know, Guru is the lead character designer for Diddy. I'm pretty sure Metroid did the same thing (switched to Zard) when they were working on Ike. Besides, since Metaknight received no changes from 2.5 to 3.0, as a playtester, that would be a logical switch (aside from Metaknight being fun and cool). That's all just speculation on my part.

 

[Phan7om]

Err... just gonna say. Diddy's not that good, hes just different from any Melee top tier so people dont know how to fight him correctly. If it wasnt for naners, or his amazing recovery (that for some reason barely anyone knows how to punish), Diddy wouldn't even be considered OP. It really comes down to two steps.
1. Learn how to use items, or how to deal with bananas specifically
2. Learn to gimp Diddy's Up-B

 

[FlamingForce]

That's fair, I'd agree with that.
So you have to use bananas more conservatively/intelligently? So what? Diddy has great maneuverability, a very fast/far toss, and can pick up bananas during his dash attack, which gives him a huge advantage as far as regaining control of it. If Diddy falls apart without bananas, which have properties that are completely unique among the PM cast collective moveset, what exactly is being rewarded here? I like unique, and I don't think he shouldn't have any bananas, but I just don't see two being necessary. I also don't like when two high level players spend 5 seconds just tripping over each other, but I guess that's just personal preference.

I'm really gonna have to ask you to stop talking about the bananas.
Work on your item game and stop complaining.

 

[batistabus]

Honestly, this individual character board system creates such close-minded niche communities. No matter what character board you go to, don't you DARE criticize something about that character. Everyone is so damn attached to their character that they won't even humor a serious conversation. "Too bad, get over it" or "Saaaaalt" or "You're just bad" are not legitimate rebuttals. I'm not salty against this. I have no problem fighting bananas or Diddy or anything like that. I'm making these criticisms based on constantly watching high level players play PM since 3.0 came out, and considering what I'd ultimately like to see out of PM. That is what I think. I am one person. Does one persons opinion that apparently none of you agree with warrant the whole board defensively coming to Diddy's aid? Characters are going to receive changes, and Diddy is no exception. And this idea that "x should be changed" automatically means "x is overpowered" needs to end.

I'm not even criticizing that much. I'm saying get rid of the random (exploding) aspect of Diddy's up-b, take away one banana, and maybe tighten some windows for sweetspots or something. Does that really warrant such a defensive emotional response?

 

[GeZ]

Honestly, this individual character board system creates such close-minded niche communities. No matter what character board you go to, don't you DARE criticize something about that character. Everyone is so damn attached to their character that they won't even humor a serious conversation. "Too bad, get over it" or "Saaaaalt" or "You're just bad" are not legitimate rebuttals. I'm not salty against this. I have no problem fighting bananas or Diddy or anything like that. I'm making these criticisms based on constantly watching high level players play PM since 3.0 came out, and considering what I'd ultimately like to see out of PM. That is what I think. I am one person. Does one persons opinion that apparently none of you agree with warrant the whole board defensively coming to Diddy's aid? Characters are going to receive changes, and Diddy is no exception. And this idea that "x should be changed" automatically means "x is overpowered" needs to end.

I'm not even criticizing that much. I'm saying get rid of the random (exploding) aspect of Diddy's up-b, take away one banana, and maybe tighten some windows for sweetspots or something. Does that really warrant such a defensive emotional response?

I think in this case it really is just an issue of item familiarity. I've never thought of bananas as super troubling just because WD'ing picks them up and grabs them out of the air. I never saw how you could get held up on something that has one omni solution. And if you are smashed by it, it's either because you don't know how to deal with it, or because you do and your opponent is putting in work to out play you.

I think a lot of these nanner johns might be like lower skill level grab johns, in that it's more about a players inability to deal with it, than it is with the tools utility.

I have a Brawl background so I keep forgetting about the other ways to deal with nanners now that dash attacks don't pick up items lmao.

I get ya man. I think I might have an easier time learning this game because I only sank about a half a year into playing brawl seriously, and never played melee seriously. Maybe having no smash background keeps me from falling back to bad habits that don't apply in P:M.

 

[batistabus]

I think in this case it really is just an issue of item familiarity. I've never thought of bananas as super troubling just because WD'ing picks them up and grabs them out of the air.

The solutions you propose are dealing with items in general, and don't really address the issue I'm referring to. I don't think anyone is really floored by bananas...I certainly don't think they're OP or even amazing. I just don't like what I see that comes out of two. I've seen some really cool stuff with one banana involving incredible reads and good option coverage. When two are in the mix, what happens is a lot more hectic and random, and I don't think that kind of thing should be rewarded. That's all.

 

[FlamingForce]

I'm not even criticizing that much. I'm saying get rid of the random (exploding) aspect of Diddy's up-b, take away one banana, and maybe tighten some windows for sweetspots or something. Does that really warrant such a defensive emotional response?

Most diddy players here agreed with the random barrels being a problem.
Diddy needs his 2nd banana to combat opponents capable of wavedashing near the first one, with only 1 of them you have to be so stupidly on point with it just to make sure your single most important tool doesn't get turned against you, it's just not right. If you pull a stunt like that against a character who already has a solid neutral game like Falco or Pit you're essentially boned because of one bad nanner toss.

 

[batistabus]

with only 1 of them you have to be so stupidly on point with it just to make sure your single most important tool doesn't get turned against you, it's just not right. If you pull a stunt like that against a character who already has a solid neutral game like Falco or Pit you're essentially boned because of one bad nanner toss.

You don't need to be "stupidly" on point...you just need to be on point, like with every other move in the game. More often than not, top Diddys only have one banana out, and that's not an issue ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK4VZmACyZ8#t=49 ).

You shouldn't "need" something just to cover your mistake. When your opponent grabs the banana, what can they do? They can't hold onto it forever, as items limit what attacks they can do and they can eventually drop it if hit enough. If they throw it, their character could have a bad throw, or maybe they haven't practiced using the item. When the item is back on the ground, Diddy is naturally able to pick them up more easily because of his attributes. And it's not like Diddy has a **** neutral game that he needs to rely entirely on bananas anyway. I really don't think it would work out like that.

 

[FlamingForce]

Out of all of the good Diddys out there at the moment Boss is by far one of the worst examples you could pull out when it comes to the topic of banana usage, Seagull Joe or Junebug would have been far more applicable.

And yes, you sure as hell should need something to cover a botched nanner toss, when your opponent grabs the one banana you can pull out they effectively shut down a huge part of your neutral game and assuming they have half-decent item skills, greatly boost their own. Even if they don't know what the hell an item is they can just drop the banana behind them and engage what is now a significantly less threatening Diddy in front of them, all because of one misplaced banana.
Diddy has exactly 1 additional way of grabbing Bananas from the ground and that's through his dash attack and that trick isn't all that useful unless the dash attack actually connects.
Diddy's neutral game isn't the worst without nanners but doesn't hold a candle to anyone who can abuse projectiles of their own or threaten his lack of reach with bigger hitboxes which is a very large part of the roster. (any sword character, Falco, Ivysaur, Donkey Kong and a good couple of others) Peanuts can be similarly snatched out of mid-air and used to combat Diddy himself, add to that the fact that Diddy is a fast faller who gets combo'd to hell and back

You're asking for a nerf to one of a characters most important tools that in it's present state is already very possible to deal with if not outright turn against him, whether or not you enjoy seeing what happens when a 2nd banana hits the field is nothing to base that kind of request on.

 

[Praxis]

Okay, I'm glad you're actually having a decent discussion rather than "boo hoo Diddy 2 gud" like OP. I'm going in detail.

That's fair, I'd agree with that.


I'm talking about great on a national scale. Sure, players can make low tiers look good compared to what other players have been able to accomplish, but that doesn't mean they have amazing results at nationals. I know that Boss and Junebug are really good players, but that doesn't mean they'd make Top 8 at Apex. Even that isn't a sufficiently good standard since the game is so new and matchup inexperience is huge for players that have the potential to be better but don't take the game as seriously.

Okay, so I'm not sure what we're even talking about here. You are attributing the lack of Diddy results to the lack of amazing top eight players playing him. But this is also acknowledging a lack of Diddy results. But since you said this:

They're all better based on what? What results does Lucario have? Even if Diddy has a satisfactory potential, that doesn't mean he doesn't need some tweaks. For example, 2.1 Ike was probably still worse than Fox, but his hit boxes and rewards were too great relative to what the player had to do. The same thing was done with Bowser's fair, for example. I'm not saying Diddy's free by any means, but I think a few characters in the current build could receive this treatment.

Okay, I get what you're saying. You're not talking about "Diddy is too good, nerf". You're saying "I think Diddy's logic is too simple, nerf his current gameplay and buff him in other ways to create a new gameplay."

The funny part is that you don't realize that this has already happened. The 2.6 > 3.0 upgrade changed his banana mechanics to be easier to tech (tech window in the middle of the trip instead of instant knockdown) and not gimp as well offstage. Then they buffed all his useless moves that didn't link together (dash attack, usmash) and made his throws in to better techchases/DI-chases.

The fact that people are still having trouble with it is because they haven't adjusted and learned the mechanics, rather than because the PMBR went the wrong direction with Diddy.

I'm to respond to these next parts together and go in depth on naner logic.

You don't need to be "stupidly" on point...you just need to be on point, like with every other move in the game. More often than not, top Diddys only have one banana out, and that's not an issue ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK4VZmACyZ8#t=49 ).

You shouldn't "need" something just to cover your mistake. When your opponent grabs the banana, what can they do? They can't hold onto it forever, as items limit what attacks they can do and they can eventually drop it if hit enough. If they throw it, their character could have a bad throw, or maybe they haven't practiced using the item. When the item is back on the ground, Diddy is naturally able to pick them up more easily because of his attributes. And it's not like Diddy has a **** neutral game that he needs to rely entirely on bananas anyway. I really don't think it would work out like that.

So you have to use bananas more conservatively/intelligently? So what? Diddy has great maneuverability, a very fast/far toss, and can pick up bananas during his dash attack, which gives him a huge advantage as far as regaining control of it. If Diddy falls apart without bananas, which have properties that are completely unique among the PM cast collective moveset, what exactly is being rewarded here? I like unique, and I don't think he shouldn't have any bananas, but I just don't see two being necessary. I also don't like when two high level players spend 5 seconds just tripping over each other, but I guess that's just personal preference.


I don't want Diddy nerfed, I want his moveset to be adjusted. I don't think Diddy is OP, and I might even place him similarly to how you do. I'm not basing these criticisms on Xanadu results...

So, here's the thing: I genuinely don't think you understand banana logic.

In Brawl, bananas led to guaranteed followups. Banana > banana > banana > dsmash was guaranteed in many cases.

This is in fact not the case in Project M. Banana trips are techable in the middle of the animation, reducing the number of vulnerable frames by half, enough that almost all guaranteed followups are eliminated.

Just like when Marth dashdances to cover two out of three of your tech options, or Snake dthrows or Ganon uses side-B's grab to techchase, Diddy can space- very quickly- to cover two out of three of your tech options. If there is a second banana on the ground, he can cover two out of three options and then get a second shot at it if you pick the remaining option (roll in to the second banana which is placed where one of your tech rolls will take you).

I think that what is happening is that people are mistaking very good spacing and reactions from the Diddy player as guaranteed followups.

In fact, Diddy's followups from naners are much less reliable than most chaingrabs. However, they are techchases which favor Diddy, and Diddy players have gotten very, very good at chasing them.

In fact, I think the PMBR have done an incredible job of fostering exactly the kind of play you want to see out of Diddy- but I don't think you're actually realizing it's happening, for two reasons:

* Diddies are really good at the techchase, enough that you just see a combo off of a banana hit and assume it was guaranteed

* Most opponents fail to tech. Half the people I play don't even realize that teching is an option, and the other half have never practiced it and don't realize that the tech timing is in the middle of the trip and tech too early. In fact, I am the most consistent banana techer in my region. Imagine if you played Marth and no one ever teched your throws. Or imagine you played Fox or Game & Watch and no one consistently teched your dthrow. Ouch, right?

* Most opponents allow Diddy to get his second banana...more on this below.

The combination of the above lead people to assume that Diddy gets too much out of his naner hits. He doesn't...Diddies are really good at it and people are, so far, really bad at understanding their options in techchasing out of it.

If you don't think Diddy should have any bananas, as you said, then you don't understand what makes Diddy interesting to play. I would not play Diddy if he didn't have bananas. I probably wouldn't play Diddy if he had one banana.



Now, let's talk about TWO bananas.
In fact, Project M has already countered the strength of two bananas...through faster, more aggressive gameplay. It's very hard for Diddy to get his second naner out if his opponent understands the risk of that.

Diddy is especially unique in that he can threaten people in the neutral game. His opponent is forced to stay on Diddy, because if he doesn't, Diddy can get two bananas out and set up the stage to control the techchases that follow from a banana hit.

This is where people's lack of matchup knowledge frequently shines through. When the game is reset to neutral, people often let Diddy run away and get two naners. Good people don't do this, because in the high speed of PM...it's actually pretty hard for Diddy to get true control of both naners if his opponent doesn't leave him alone.

If you check the Diddy critique thread, just yesterday we had a discussion about how Junebug's biggest issue is that he would always try to get his second banana when he should be keeping his opponent moving and the attempt to get the second banana always allowed his opponent to get a positioning edge on him. In fact, with the high speed of PM, it's very, very hard for Diddy to get his second naner if the opponent understands that it's his opportunity to get a positional advantage.

Want an example? Let's look at the very video you posted just now, with Boss vs Coney.
You use this as an example of how Diddy can play well with one banana, but this is not correct. Boss, in fact, tries to get his second naner several times. Coney uses this opportunity to eliminate the first banana in each case. The only time Coney fails to do this is at 2:34, where he tries to dash attack the banana (Brawl habit?) and trips on it instead. This is the only time in the first match that Boss gets two naners on the ground, and he dthrows (a techchase setup) knowing that Coney would have limited tech roll options due to banana placements and gets some good hits on it (followed by a SD by Coney).

I'm not elevating Coney as some kind of Diddy slayer- in fact, he seems to have a poor understanding of how to edgeguard Diddy, often flying offstage with poor attack choices in an attempt to guess where Diddy will recover- but he does correctly handle bananas and prevents Boss from ever getting his second banana out by always being in a position where going for a second banana pull will cause the Diddy to cede the neutral game.

This is a mistake Junebug (and myself, actually) makes frequently- partially because of Brawl habits (you don't get punished as hard, ceding the neutral game is often worth it for the second banana which punishes harder in Brawl than PM). If you watch the match closely, Boss would use his second naner pull whenever Coney pulled away- and Coney usually pulled away because he saw an opportunity to eliminate Boss' first naner. There are two naners on the stage many, many times in the match, but usually only briefly (Boss pulls one as Coney eats one).

Boss proceeds to beat Coney by refusing to cede that neutral game (and thus not going for the second naner because he can't) and beating Coney through outspacing him and beating him in dashdancing mindgames and techchases.

The naners are Diddy's pressure. Letting Diddy get two naners out and one of them in hand is the same thing as letting Falco dair your shield. The threat of two naners forces your opponent to always stay close enough to you to punish your attempt at a second naner pull and makes the match move forward at a fast pace. You have to keep on Diddy in the same way you have to keep Falco from getting on to you. The fact that this logic is inverted is why people think Diddy is too good (they think they're doing well when Diddy is trying to get his second naner and ceding ground).

As to the part about two players tripping over each other, this is usually due to inattentiveness (rolling in to a banana) and missing techs.

Your response to this is going to be "but if your opponent can make it so that pulling the second naner isn't worth it, why should he even have the second naner?", there's two simple responses:

* If Diddy cannot pull a second naner, his opponent grabbing his banana is an enormous disadvantage. Diddy needs the ability to pull his own naner, or suddenly naners become way too risky to let go of. This would actually encourage Diddy to become very campy (as naner OOS is really, really good) so as not to let his naner get in the opponent's hand (whereas right now, if his opponent goes for a banana, Diddy pulls another banana, and they each have one). Diddy would camp for OOS naners or whiffed attacks if he couldn't pull his own naner in response. Can you imagine a game in which Mario loses his fireballs for fifteen seconds if his opponent reflects one, or Peach loses her turnip if someone catches one? Especially this game where it is really easy to catch items (you can even instant AGT if you're offstage so there's no downsides). Two naners on stage keeps the match flowing.

* A single naner reduces the technical complexity of a character- it's a very common thing for Diddies to throw one naner using something like AGT to cover their attempt to reach a second naner. Techniques like glidetossing and AGT allow Diddy to move during the throw. Diddies use a lot of ATs to move themselves from one naner to the other with their projectiles. Without two naners, there's much less point in these motion techniques, and Diddy's technical requirements go down by a lot.


Now add to this that Diddy is the perfect combo weight- he gets destroyed if he actually gets hit. This makes for what is, in the end, an extremely well balanced character- a character that is extremely threatening if you let him control the neutral game, but can be threatened in to not being able to get his position of strength, who falls apart when he gets hit without his stage setup. He's got a very solid game without naners, but he gets combo'd like a spacie without being able to pressure and combo like a spacie if he doesn't have a naner. He needs the strong neutral game to overcome the fact that when he gets hit he gets hit bad.

 

[Hashtag]

Okay, I'm glad you're actually having a decent discussion rather than "boo hoo Diddy 2 gud" like OP. I'm going in detail.



Okay, so I'm not sure what we're even talking about here. You are attributing the lack of Diddy results to the lack of amazing top eight players playing him. But this is also acknowledging a lack of Diddy results. But since you said this:




Okay, I get what you're saying. You're not talking about "Diddy is too good, nerf". You're saying "I think Diddy's logic is too simple, nerf his current gameplay and buff him in other ways to create a new gameplay."

The funny part is that you don't realize that this has already happened. The 2.6 > 3.0 upgrade changed his banana mechanics to be easier to tech (tech window in the middle of the trip instead of instant knockdown) and not gimp as well offstage. Then they buffed all his useless moves that didn't link together (dash attack, usmash) and made his throws in to better techchases/DI-chases.

The fact that people are still having trouble with it is because they haven't adjusted and learned the mechanics, rather than because the PMBR went the wrong direction with Diddy.

I'm to respond to these next parts together and go in depth on naner logic.






So, here's the thing: I genuinely don't think you understand banana logic.

In Brawl, bananas led to guaranteed followups. Banana > banana > banana > dsmash was guaranteed in many cases.

This is in fact not the case in Project M. Banana trips are techable in the middle of the animation, reducing the number of vulnerable frames by half, enough that almost all guaranteed followups are eliminated.

Just like when Marth dashdances to cover two out of three of your tech options, or Snake dthrows or Ganon uses side-B's grab to techchase, Diddy can space- very quickly- to cover two out of three of your tech options. If there is a second banana on the ground, he can cover two out of three options and then get a second shot at it if you pick the remaining option (roll in to the second banana which is placed where one of your tech rolls will take you).

I think that what is happening is that people are mistaking very good spacing and reactions from the Diddy player as guaranteed followups.

In fact, Diddy's followups from naners are much less reliable than most chaingrabs. However, they are techchases which favor Diddy, and Diddy players have gotten very, very good at chasing them.

In fact, I think the PMBR have done an incredible job of fostering exactly the kind of play you want to see out of Diddy- but I don't think you're actually realizing it's happening, for two reasons:

* Diddies are really good at the techchase, enough that you just see a combo off of a banana hit and assume it was guaranteed

* Most opponents fail to tech. Half the people I play don't even realize that teching is an option, and the other half have never practiced it and don't realize that the tech timing is in the middle of the trip and tech too early. In fact, I am the most consistent banana techer in my region. Imagine if you played Marth and no one ever teched your throws. Or imagine you played Fox or Game & Watch and no one consistently teched your dthrow. Ouch, right?

* Most opponents allow Diddy to get his second banana...more on this below.

The combination of the above lead people to assume that Diddy gets too much out of his naner hits. He doesn't...Diddies are really good at it and people are, so far, really bad at understanding their options in techchasing out of it.

If you don't think Diddy should have any bananas, as you said, then you don't understand what makes Diddy interesting to play. I would not play Diddy if he didn't have bananas. I probably wouldn't play Diddy if he had one banana.



Now, let's talk about TWO bananas.
In fact, Project M has already countered the strength of two bananas...through faster, more aggressive gameplay. It's very hard for Diddy to get his second naner out if his opponent understands the risk of that.

Diddy is especially unique in that he can threaten people in the neutral game. His opponent is forced to stay on Diddy, because if he doesn't, Diddy can get two bananas out and set up the stage to control the techchases that follow from a banana hit.

This is where people's lack of matchup knowledge frequently shines through. When the game is reset to neutral, people often let Diddy run away and get two naners. Good people don't do this, because in the high speed of PM...it's actually pretty hard for Diddy to get true control of both naners if his opponent doesn't leave him alone.

If you check the Diddy critique thread, just yesterday we had a discussion about how Junebug's biggest issue is that he would always try to get his second banana when he should be keeping his opponent moving and the attempt to get the second banana always allowed his opponent to get a positioning edge on him. In fact, with the high speed of PM, it's very, very hard for Diddy to get his second naner if the opponent understands that it's his opportunity to get a positional advantage.

Want an example? Let's look at the very video you posted just now, with Boss vs Coney.
You use this as an example of how Diddy can play well with one banana, but this is not correct. Boss, in fact, tries to get his second naner several times. Coney uses this opportunity to eliminate the first banana in each case. The only time Coney fails to do this is at 2:34, where he tries to dash attack the banana (Brawl habit?) and trips on it instead. This is the only time in the first match that Boss gets two naners on the ground, and he dthrows (a techchase setup) knowing that Coney would have limited tech roll options due to banana placements and gets some good hits on it (followed by a SD by Coney).

I'm not elevating Coney as some kind of Diddy slayer- in fact, he seems to have a poor understanding of how to edgeguard Diddy, often flying offstage with poor attack choices in an attempt to guess where Diddy will recover- but he does correctly handle bananas and prevents Boss from ever getting his second banana out by always being in a position where going for a second banana pull will cause the Diddy to cede the neutral game.

This is a mistake Junebug (and myself, actually) makes frequently- partially because of Brawl habits (you don't get punished as hard, ceding the neutral game is often worth it for the second banana which punishes harder in Brawl than PM). If you watch the match closely, Boss would use his second naner pull whenever Coney pulled away- and Coney usually pulled away because he saw an opportunity to eliminate Boss' first naner. There are two naners on the stage many, many times in the match, but usually only briefly (Boss pulls one as Coney eats one).

Boss proceeds to beat Coney by refusing to cede that neutral game (and thus not going for the second naner because he can't) and beating Coney through outspacing him and beating him in dashdancing mindgames and techchases.

The naners are Diddy's pressure. Letting Diddy get two naners out and one of them in hand is the same thing as letting Falco dair your shield. The threat of two naners forces your opponent to always stay close enough to you to punish your attempt at a second naner pull and makes the match move forward at a fast pace. You have to keep on Diddy in the same way you have to keep Falco from getting on to you. The fact that this logic is inverted is why people think Diddy is too good (they think they're doing well when Diddy is trying to get his second naner and ceding ground).

As to the part about two players tripping over each other, this is usually due to inattentiveness (rolling in to a banana) and missing techs.

Your response to this is going to be "but if your opponent can make it so that pulling the second naner isn't worth it, why should he even have the second naner?", there's two simple responses:

* If Diddy cannot pull a second naner, his opponent grabbing his banana is an enormous disadvantage. Diddy needs the ability to pull his own naner, or suddenly naners become way too risky to let go of. This would actually encourage Diddy to become very campy (as naner OOS is really, really good) so as not to let his naner get in the opponent's hand (whereas right now, if his opponent goes for a banana, Diddy pulls another banana, and they each have one). Diddy would camp for OOS naners or whiffed attacks if he couldn't pull his own naner in response. Can you imagine a game in which Mario loses his fireballs for fifteen seconds if his opponent reflects one, or Peach loses her turnip if someone catches one? Especially this game where it is really easy to catch items (you can even instant AGT if you're offstage so there's no downsides). Two naners on stage keeps the match flowing.

* A single naner reduces the technical complexity of a character- it's a very common thing for Diddies to throw one naner using something like AGT to cover their attempt to reach a second naner. Techniques like glidetossing and AGT allow Diddy to move during the throw. Diddies use a lot of ATs to move themselves from one naner to the other with their projectiles. Without two naners, there's much less point in these motion techniques, and Diddy's technical requirements go down by a lot.


Now add to this that Diddy is the perfect combo weight- he gets destroyed if he actually gets hit. This makes for what is, in the end, an extremely well balanced character- a character that is extremely threatening if you let him control the neutral game, but can be threatened in to not being able to get his position of strength, who falls apart when he gets hit without his stage setup. He's got a very solid game without naners, but he gets combo'd like a spacie without being able to pressure and combo like a spacie if he doesn't have a naner. He needs the strong neutral game to overcome the fact that when he gets hit he gets hit bad.

Very good and well thought out response praxis. Covered a lot of what I wanted to actually say (if not most of it).

I also want to point out that, most of the brawl players are the really good diddy's right now (or at least they have the most exposure). There are also some very good diddy's out there with just a melee background and the tech skill by a very large margin to take advantage of banana tech quickly and easily (like myself). The point that "No top player has picked up the Character" Is a very troubling argument to me for a couple of reasons. How do you think those people who now make top eight at nationals get there in the first place? They garner the practice, experience and knowledge of their character and their matchups to place that high. Someone just has to have the potential, commitment and drive to make it that far.

By saying "No one that can place top eight at a national has picked him up yet" is very demeaning to the players who are playing the character in an attempt to be able to do so. Almost like you're saying "You guys just aren't good enough, and probably won't be." There are a number of players that play Diddy that could go and probably place pretty well at a national now in an attempt to make top 8. Please don't downplay the hard work and dedication of others (even if you don't mean to) in that sense.

Disqo, DLA, Boss, Junebug, Seagull Joe, GuruKid, Bladewise, Hashtag, Praxis, Soft Serve and many other diddy's are trying very hard to get good with the character to be able to place high at a national I'm sure.

 

[Seagull Joe]

You don't need to be "stupidly" on point...you just need to be on point, like with every other move in the game. More often than not, top Diddys only have one banana out, and that's not an issue ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK4VZmACyZ8#t=49 ).

You shouldn't "need" something just to cover your mistake. When your opponent grabs the banana, what can they do? They can't hold onto it forever, as items limit what attacks they can do and they can eventually drop it if hit enough. If they throw it, their character could have a bad throw, or maybe they haven't practiced using the item. When the item is back on the ground, Diddy is naturally able to pick them up more easily because of his attributes. And it's not like Diddy has a **** neutral game that he needs to rely entirely on bananas anyway. I really don't think it would work out like that.

Coney has played this game for not very long. Any video linked would probably not be relevant.

 

[Dragoomba]

Northwest Majors 6 had 77 Project M entrants, only one Diddy made it to final 8 (Bladewise)..

Yup. I was one of those Diddys. I lost to SFAT in the third round I think, and then DQ'd myself to play Marvel, lol.

To the OP, it's obvious you play Bowser, going by your avatar and your complaining of Bowser's command grab compared to Diddy's. I can imagine that matchup is horrendous for Bowser, especially in regarsd to banana pressure and side b, due to Bowser being so giant. Don't base your opinions on a character from one terrible matchup. Diddy isn't that great.

His main problem is unlike most other character with the ability to zone and pressure with projectiles, his can be turned against him very easily. It's really easy to catch his bananas with wavedashing as this game seems much more lenient with item catching.

His Up B should be fixed, I'll admit that's really stupid. Everything else is fine, considering he's a solid, but not top tier character. Every character is going to have REALLY good matchups (well, not every character, but most).

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

his recovery bugs me a little.
between wallcling/walljump, and the RIDICULOUS distance gained from using side-b and up-b. not to mention the near zero landing lag on the up b and the barrels counter-edgeguarding it just seems silly. it allows for diddy's to go DEEP for ko's with his mack truck f-air and make it back safely 99% of the time, hence the name "Deep Kong". just my 2 cents

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

As long as the fair doesn't hit like squirtle's or falcon's I am OK with diddy's from a balance standpoint. Without the barrel break, it would be too hard for diddy to recover, and since his upb is difficult to sweet spot, he would just be endlessly punished. Besides, can't complain about upb if I don't have a better idea for it. Still not shine lol, many in the cast can just run to where diddy is going to land to punish upb with up smash. Aside from that its funny the best character to edgeguard diddy with is diddy

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Good job to all the participants of sktar 3 , I will say seagull I am a little disappointed. When I saw you and junebug on the same team, I thought I was going to watch the hypest four banana tech chase infinite side b reading up b barrelling shenanigans that ever touched a stream. Cant fault the ivysaur, still a good showing. Hope you both had fun, and also , how hype was that snake battle lol.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Good job to all the participants of sktar 3 , I will say seagull I am a little disappointed. When I saw you and junebug on the same team, I thought I was going to watch the hypest four banana tech chase infinite side b reading up b barrelling shenanigans that ever touched a stream. Cant fault the ivysaur, still a good showing. Hope you both had fun, and also , how hype was that snake battle lol.

I went mostly in doubles. Me and June agreed that double would've been better versus the two teams we lost to, but oh well. 7th/64 is not that bad.

 

[sneakytako]

Can we all agree that this is stupid?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Complaint threads allow us to voice plausible needs that wouldn't butcher the character. And gives the creator discussions on how to stop it , or at the very least counter pick.
It is a staple part of the community that leads to progress.
Is what I would have said if this thread didn't acknowledge and die virtually 20 days ago.

 

[FlamingForce]

Can we all agree that this is stupid?

WE ALREADY HAVE

LIKE 5 TIMES.

Jesus christ these ****ing people.

 

[Praxis]

Let this thread die.

 

[Spice]

Please. Complain about nerfing Diddy when he wins a SINGLE major tournament. For now, I think everyone can agree to complain about Mewtwo until his UpB gets nerfed

 

[fraggle]

I said this in another thread but i just want to back up my fellow diddys. People who complain about nanners just havent put the time in to figure out the PM item game in general. If you have ever played a Toon Link/Link/Peach who really knows whats up w items then you would probably complain about their items too. They all have complicated set ups and really great options out of GT.

I totally agree that Diddys recovery is not as impossible to edge guard as people think. Anyone around my region who is my skill level or better figures it out or has figured it out and bodies me eventually with multiple characters when im off the edge no matter how much i mix up trajectory/sweet spot or use any combination of Side B/GT/Up B...its all about forcing certain options off stage that your character can punish....just like everyone elses recovery...Characters that have the easiest time peach/marth/roy/ rob/shiek/M2

Diddys F-smash is not that great...once you figure out that you can SDI the small hit or CC the small hit w slippery chars you get away and get a free punish....in a way its like foxes U air which is much better for a lot of reasons

Nerf Side B?...plz.....that just means you dont know how to pay attention...just bait it out and WD back F smash if you cant think of anything better to do

if none of this helps just pick a character w a sword they all have the ability and tools to rip diddy apart....I get nerfing the Fair (maybe make it like shieks) and the misfire barrels...even though i do love me some misfire barrels (:

 

[fraggle]

i forgot to mention this..

If you complain about Dash attack that means you dont know how to DI it. Also ,heads up, you can CC it from 2 of the 3 distances its used and punish it if your fast enough w every character....

also if you STILL complain about his recovery just pick mario and spam that cape like crazy....