Just putting this out there.

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

He was overbuffed.

Just saying that to start with. Not that he didn't need buffs; there were arguably some things that needed changes, and he got them. But even before 2.5, he was a monster and he didn't need to become any better. I KNEW this was going to happen because we were in the age of learning Diddy instead of just buffing and nerfing him. If anything, he needed things -nerfed-, IF ANYTHING, HIS UPB NEEDS TO BE NERFED RIGHT NOW. (But not for the reason most want, his upB is very easily edgeguarded, you just can't go offstage and expect to gimp him like most want to)

I'm really hoping you guys aren't going to do anything drastic and nerf him to ****, but I also hope you aren't leaving him as he is. UpB barrel misfire is completely ******** and I have no idea how that made it through 2.0, not to mention the rest of the dev-only builds, all the way up to 2.5, 2.6, AND 3.0. Being punished for successfully, cleanly, and execution-perfect punishing Diddy's already amazing recovery, AND he gets back while you die? No.

Fair, I'm not sure what's going to happen, but this is the #2 complaint EVERYONE has about him, if not bananas. It's probably getting changed, I honestly don't care what happens to it, it's not really the biggest offender since it'lll be a good move whether it hits hard or not, higher angle or not.

Sideb (most likely grab portion) is probably getting nerfed (again), too.

DA offstage is going to get nerfed because people don't know how to DI/SDI and hate the DA into dair combo that isn't even guaranteed, instead of the DA off platforms into guaranteed followups that IS actually warranting a nerf.

Bananas aren't going to be touched. If you guys actually manage to do this, ignore the REAL problems, you have no clue what you're doing at all.

Plenty of other chars are sparking with power like Diddy is lately, but he has a lot of things that SHOULD NEVER EVER BE KEPT, regardless of how good he really is, or bad he really is. Do not let this happen.

(Let me remind you all that someone gave Diddy a damn Fox bair in the past. That alone scares the hell out of me when it comes to the GROUP decisions on this, not talking about Gurukid. Any balance decisions that end up harming things should never, ever be pinned on one person, if this happens in any environment. It's up to everyone to cooperate and test things out, with multiple players. I question the team behind this char as a whole, not just one person, atm.)

 

[Soft Serve]

Yeah I definitely agree that the barrel misfires should just be removed.

Fair could be toned down a bit. What do you have in mind for side-b grab though? I would prefer that the grab had less active grab frames or didn't travel as far instead of nerfing the trajectory and potential follow ups.

 

[CyberZixx]

Only thing i'd change is the misfire, yeah. Getting punished for edgeguarding is beyond silly.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Yeah I definitely agree that the barrel misfires should just be removed.

Fair could be toned down a bit. What do you have in mind for side-b grab though? I would prefer that the grab had less active grab frames or didn't travel as far instead of nerfing the trajectory and potential follow ups.

That's the thing. It's an air-OK command grab that moves him. Bowser doesn't get that last privilege. More recovery is not an option, it already has a ton of that if you don't kick, and a miss is very easily reacted to. Moreso, what we could do if this move really needs a nerf (I'm neutral on it, I don't have any real opinion about it) is nerf the followups of sideb smack, so that we can actually give the hop a reason to be used onstage as a mixup WITHOUT needing a banana (sand trap), and at the same time, make sideb smack less amazing (it's stupid easy to react to DI and combo off smack).

The trajectory was already nerfed, so I'm not sure about that. The active frames were nerfed already iirc. Less would be a bit crazy since I don't believe how long it lasts is a reason why. It would eliminate decent techchasing with sideb, which is already not as easy as it seems.

I feel like the followups off smack are the stupid part. But we can easily buff the hop to compensate.

 

[Soft Serve]

That's the thing. It's an air-OK command grab that moves him. Bowser doesn't get that last privilege. More recovery is not an option, it already has a ton of that if you don't kick, and a miss is very easily reacted to. Moreso, what we could do if this move really needs a nerf (I'm neutral on it, I don't have any real opinion about it) is nerf the followups of sideb smack, so that we can actually give the hop a reason to be used onstage as a mixup WITHOUT needing a banana (sand trap), and at the same time, make sideb smack less amazing (it's stupid easy to react to DI and combo off smack).

The trajectory was already nerfed, so I'm not sure about that. The active frames were nerfed already iirc. Less would be a bit crazy since I don't believe how long it lasts is a reason why. It would eliminate decent techchasing with sideb, which is already not as easy as it seems.

I feel like the followups off smack are the stupid part. But we can easily buff the hop to compensate.

The hop is usefull on stage though, Which is partially why I'd be fine with the slap getting nerfed. The hop is equivalent to a footstool (although it does do dmg I think?) and thus on non-really tall characters you can Airdodge down >grab>up-smash>d-smash, and it goes from guarenteed to a frame trap depending on how tall the character is. I've been working this into my game really slowly and have been getting good success from it (no one expects it still, so I was getting side-b hop WL grab> dthrow fair on people and they paused for a second and just said "what").

I think some nerfs are definetly warrented, Diddy has a ton of options that are unexplored.

 

[Praxis]

He was overbuffed.

Wait a second.

Are you saying Diddy is better than Fox now?

Does Diddy have things that are better than Fox's usmash, nair, fair, and shine? How about all four put together?

No?

Then what does "overbuffed" mean?

I don't think Diddy is better than any of the Melee greats, and is maybe, maybe in the top ten. IMO, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Mario, Link, Lucario, and maybe Mewtwo, Pit, and Snake are better. And guess what- these characters for the most part have better tournament results.

If you don't think Diddy is top three in the game, then how is he overbuffed?

"Overbuffed" has started to mean "Gave them good things like the good Melee charcters".

If you do think Diddy is top three in the game, then please explain, because that's bonkers.

If you don't think Diddy is top three in the game, then why do you think he was overbuffed?

Just saying that to start with. Not that he didn't need buffs; there were arguably some things that needed changes, and he got them. But even before 2.5, he was a monster and he didn't need to become any better. I KNEW this was going to happen because we were in the age of learning Diddy instead of just buffing and nerfing him. If anything, he needed things -nerfed-, IF ANYTHING, HIS UPB NEEDS TO BE NERFED RIGHT NOW. (But not for the reason most want, his upB is very easily edgeguarded, you just can't go offstage and expect to gimp him like most want to)

I'm really hoping you guys aren't going to do anything drastic and nerf him to ****, but I also hope you aren't leaving him as he is. UpB barrel misfire is completely ******** and I have no idea how that made it through 2.0, not to mention the rest of the dev-only builds, all the way up to 2.5, 2.6, AND 3.0. Being punished for successfully, cleanly, and execution-perfect punishing Diddy's already amazing recovery, AND he gets back while you die? No.

I can agree on the up-B barrel escape being too random, but otherwise, you hit the nail on the head when you said the up-B is very easily edgeguarded. Most people are just extremely stupid about it and try to edgehog it like it's Marth's up-B.

Fair, I'm not sure what's going to happen, but this is the #2 complaint EVERYONE has about him, if not bananas. It's probably getting changed, I honestly don't care what happens to it, it's not really the biggest offender since it'lll be a good move whether it hits hard or not, higher angle or not.

I can see giving DI a bigger role in Fair's trajectory to end the complaining, but that's about it.

Why are you addressing this to the Diddy boards as if we have some control? We aren't the PMBR.

Sideb (most likely grab portion) is probably getting nerfed (again), too.

And...why? It's a mix up. It's not too fast, it's very, very easy to punish side-B on reaction. It's much easier to punish Diddy's side-B than it is to punish Ganondorf's side-B grab, for one. Any attack will basically beat it and you can do it OOS. Diddy has very few setups in to side-B, and it only works purely as a mix up or when you get hard read...seems like good move to me.

DA offstage is going to get nerfed because people don't know how to DI/SDI and hate the DA into dair combo that isn't even guaranteed, instead of the DA off platforms into guaranteed followups that IS actually warranting a nerf.

Bananas aren't going to be touched. If you guys actually manage to do this, ignore the REAL problems, you have no clue what you're doing at all.

Why do you want moves to be nerfed that aren't even guaranteed? And why are you addressing this to us like we are the PMBR?

Plenty of other chars are sparking with power like Diddy is lately, but he has a lot of things that SHOULD NEVER EVER BE KEPT, regardless of how good he really is, or bad he really is. Do not let this happen.

So you're saying, Diddy isn't as good as plenty of characters, but should be nerfed anyway?

If Diddy gets significantly nerfed (except for maybe the random up-B barrel), I'll switch characters, at this point, or stop playing. He's a decent, good all around character that isn't even top, and I'm appalled by the volume of the PM community that acts like he's got to be nerfed when Fox and Marth and Jigglypuff and Peach all have stupider moves and there's a number of characters that are better. No johns, no salt. Diddy isn't that good. He's good enough to be a very well balanced character right now. He's not a contender for the top, and definitely doesn't need to be nerfed (except the randomness of the up-B barrell).

(Let me remind you all that someone gave Diddy a damn Fox bair in the past. That alone scares the hell out of me when it comes to the GROUP decisions on this, not talking about Gurukid. Any balance decisions that end up harming things should never, ever be pinned on one person, if this happens in any environment. It's up to everyone to cooperate and test things out, with multiple players. I question the team behind this char as a whole, not just one person, atm.)

Again, we are not the PMBR.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

I'm not saying you guys as if you're the PMBR. Don't worry about that. This is just a notice for anyone in the PMBR who actually comes through and reads these threads. The only one I knew of who was working on Diddy in the PMBR before Gurukid was someone I met with in one of JC's past Thursdays, I had to shove Diddy's *********** in his face for people to realize wtf he was.

He was overbuffed because he was already top 10 without having dthrow changed into a near guaranteed kill throw, uthrow changed (a change I actually never liked), or upB given its insane knockback that it now has, among the fair buffs (THIS MOVE WAS NERFED HEAVILY BEFORE HIS RELEASE FOR A REASON), uair buffs, and etc. He's ALREADY stupid easy to use and win with against most people just by having bananas (learning bananas doesn't make it an easy win, many chars do have good glidetosses, but some can't even do it, and some have extremely slow, easy to react to throws, some of which have such high startup that they screw themselves by throwing the banana)

Diddy's not better than the space animals, but that doesn't mean he doesn't need nerfs man.

 

[Praxis]

Dthrow is a near guaranteed throw? Up-B's knockback is "insane"? Diddy was top ten before?

I haven't seen anyone switch to Diddy and suddenly get results. Most Melee players have a lot of trouble with him. He's not particularly easy to win with and most of his game revolves around a different set of logic.

There's a couple stupid little things that need to be fixed, like the up-B random barrel, but Diddy isn't overpowered at all. You straight up said his recovery isn't that hard to ledgeguard, and I have no idea why you think his dthrow is an instant kill.

"I had to shove Diddy's *********** in his face for people to realize wtf he was."

You just sound salty, bro.

 

[Smur]

---------------------------

 

[DeFish]

Bar Wars also took place in one of the most Diddy-heavy regions, it's not the best example. If that was somewhere like Texas, it's unlikely that you would have seen that much Diddy representation.

 

[Praxis]

Northwest Majors 6 had 77 Project M entrants, only one Diddy made it to final 8 (Bladewise).

Diddy seems to regional fad in some areas and fail completely in others. His overall results are not strong and mostly come from one region. Europe just had Snake/Pit finals and WHOBO had Fox/Roy and NWM had Mewtwo/Wolf. Diddy is not winning.

@ Smur , I still don't understand why Diddy's side-B is ********. It's very slow with a tiny grab box that is inside of Diddy. This makes it very easy to punish. It's basically a worse version of Ganondorf's side-B with a useful weak attack mixup. I don't get how that's "********".

As to the Fox example, we've also had years of anti Fox meta game. People know how to edge guard him. Diddy is actually EXTREMELY EFFECTIVELY edge guarded but only one or two people I know know how to do it (and can murder me offstage with the entire cast). Everyone else goes derp and tried to pretend I'm fox.

What's happening is that Diddy players are coming in with years of Brawl banana mechanic meta game (because this part still works the same, logic wise), and most players haven't learned to play with it or edge guard and scream nerf.

 

[didds]

I always wonder how many players actually grab ledge. It seems so basic, but soooo many players seem content to just wait and, more often than not, wiff their fsmash edge guard. Just take the option away, it's not hard.

 

[DeFish]

What's happening is that Diddy players are coming in with years of Brawl banana mechanic meta game (because this part still works the same, logic wise), and most players haven't learned to play with it or edge guard and scream nerf.

It seems like a lot of the complaints come from people that play Melee more than Brawl, and I think that's where a lot of the salt comes from. While the top melee characters have different strengths and playstyles, very few of them really force you to adjust your playstyle to the degree that some of the characters/shenanigans from Brawl do. I'd say that Jigglypuff gets complained about a lot for the same reason people hate on bananas: she forces you to not just mindlessly be aggressive, and punishes people with crappy neutral games. A lot of melee (from my perspective, at least) seems to be about who gets the first hit in and starts a combo, which means that strong aggression is nearly always the right choice.

I know we've beaten this horse into the ground, but so many of the complaints that people have about PM characters that weren't top tier in melee come down to people not wanting to have to figure out how to get around new things. We spent years working out matchups in Melee and got to the point where matchups were known, character strengths were known, and we knew how to deal with most of the major strengths of the top tier characters. We didn't care about learning the lower tier characters because the bread and butter of the top tiers made them pretty inconsequential. Now, those low tier characters and Brawl newcomers aren't so easily bested by standard bread and butter, and a lot of players, in an understandable state of complaisance, don't know how to deal with so many new things. Which is why you hear moves that are good, but not broken, get complained about constantly: Squirtle side-b, bananas, Link's boomerang, Zelda's neutral-b, Lucas' bair, etc.

TLDR- People expect to keep doing the same thing's they've been doing to beat these characters for years, and are mad when it doesn't work.

 

[Smur]

-----------------------

 

[Praxis]

I know it's natural that asking to nerf Diddy in a Diddy thread wouldn't sit well, but still. I come from a Brawl background more so than Melee and I have a little experience with bananas and item control. I just don't agree with his play style and easy kills. Bananas can cause helpless situations, dash attack off stage > d-air works (if it doesn't, Up-B will likely take care of it), Side-b chains and etc. I'm not asking for a melee carbon copy, the diversity of style in PM is why I love it so much.

You know that they made bananas techable so that you don't get guaranteed followups anymore, right? Side-B doesn't really chain, and dash attack to dair only works with certain weights/percentages and poor DI. These things are gimmicks that people get hit by and whine about. There's no reason to nerf a character that isn't that great just because you don't like dealing with his stuff. I hate Fox's easy kills, his shine gimps, his usmash. Dair to usmash kills me at like 80. I think that's stupid. So? I learn not to get hit by it.

 

[GeZ]

Yeah, the main distinction here is that people don't want to learn how to not get bopped by Diddy. Before you ask for nerfs, learn ways around it. That's how this process should work. If something deems removing after you figure out a counter, then bring it up to the developers, but not before then.

One thing that's reassuring to me is that, according to the dev I play with, posts on Smashboards aren't taken to heart often and only taken seriously a little more than that.

 

[FlamingForce]

That's the thing. It's an air-OK command grab that moves him. Bowser doesn't get that last privilege.

And what exactly does that have to with diddy's side-b?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Guy, your post sounds so bad...I'll talk to you in person about the stupidity you posted. @ Praxis is right about everything he posted.

The reason my region has good 's is because the 3 ones who consistently get good results WERE ALREADY GOOD IN OTHER GAMES. It should be 0 surprise me, Boss, and Junebug get top placements @__@. We were already high level players in brawl.

 

[FlamingForce]

I know it's natural that asking to nerf Diddy in a Diddy thread wouldn't sit well, but still. I come from a Brawl background more so than Melee and I have a little experience with bananas and item control. I just don't agree with his play style and easy kills. Bananas can cause helpless situations, dash attack off stage > d-air works (if it doesn't, Up-B will likely take care of it), Side-b chains and etc. I'm not asking for a melee carbon copy, the diversity of style in PM is why I love it so much.

Well then stop giving him easy kills.
And bananas aren't even remotely close to being as problematic as you claim they are, you just need solid item control.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

-snip-

I'm not talking about any Diddys we have. I'm not even talking about me personally. I suck ass at this game and you know that.

I'm just talking about what this character got, why he got it, and why he never needed it; and now it's going to negatively affect him (nerfed in the wrong ways rather than the right ones). I didn't mean to talk like that if I did, but that's what I mean. And at that, it's not only here that he's gaining rep. It's kind of the same case Ivy had in a way, though she never had results. Ivy got reasonable changes, then she got UNreasonable ones for-again, some reason; which were taken away quickly. I'm not sure if Sonic was the same way since Sonic saw attention, and so did Bowser, for a while, but Diddy was almost completely untouched from release to 2.6 when it came to figuring out how to effectively use him. We had people trying things with him and not much word from time to time, that's it. 3.0, here we are, he's -still- not known enough yet, no one's complaining about him like right now, yet he had all of these changes packed in already and more.

I don't see how bananas aren't that problematic though. They're extremely powerful and just the presence knocks out many options you have, in a game where you have a ton more options than you had in Brawl. That's saying something, even after naners were nerfed multiple times. And let's not forget he has a guard break. (dthrow glide toss)

Fox is, yes, probably still better. He has stupid **** too, all of which I should not need to list. I'm doing that for Diddy here because he's the topic. So yes, Fox is stupid. Yes.

But Fox is not getting nerfed. Ever. And everyone knows this.

And what exactly does that have to with diddy's side-b?

Exactly that, it doesn't move Bowser. While Diddy's does move him, and that makes it both a movement option that can be made even safer (kick has less recovery and keeps momentum), and more lenient to use as it covers retreats decently. I mean, Bowser is Bowser, he's not really supposed to be that mobile, but I'm just making a comparison to the only other -real- air command grab I can think of.

 

[Praxis]

I'm not talking about any Diddys we have. I'm not even talking about me personally. I suck *** at this game and you know that.

I'm just talking about what this character got, why he got it, and why he never needed it; and now it's going to negatively affect him (nerfed in the wrong ways rather than the right ones). I didn't mean to talk like that if I did, but that's what I mean. And at that, it's not only here that he's gaining rep. It's kind of the same case Ivy had in a way, though she never had results. Ivy got reasonable changes, then she got UNreasonable ones for-again, some reason; which were taken away quickly. I'm not sure if Sonic was the same way since Sonic saw attention, and so did Bowser, for a while, but Diddy was almost completely untouched from release to 2.6 when it came to figuring out how to effectively use him. We had people trying things with him and not much word from time to time, that's it. 3.0, here we are, he's -still- not known enough yet, no one's complaining about him like right now, yet he had all of these changes packed in already and more.

The content of your post is still based on the premise that Diddy is somehow "overbuffed". You use inflammatory, emotional language like "He's already stupid easy to win with" that's completely silly (Diddy is significantly more technical than characters like, oh, Sheik, and requires heavy use of wavedash, glide toss, AGT, and L cancelling just for basic play).

You never responded to my list of characters that are better than Diddy, only to assert that Diddy was top ten. I think you are chalking up your inability to fight Diddy to Diddy being a stronger character than he is.


Your entire viewpoint is colored by your faulty premise that Diddy was a great character in 2.6b. He wasn't. He was very average, and had very serious glaring flaws (several of his attacks were useless since the hitboxes didn't link for example).

The 3.0 buffs were mostly fixes to make his moveset mostly viable and to make bananas less wonky (like no more spiking people standing on the ledge). 2.6 Diddy would not have faired well at all in the 3.0 environment. And here we are with the 3.0 Diddy which is...probably slightly above average.

I can see arguing the need to "fix" the barrel launch, but other than that all of your arguments are based off of a premise (Diddy was top ten in 2.6) which is dead wrong.

I don't see how bananas aren't that problematic though. They're extremely powerful and just the presence knocks out many options you have, in a game where you have a ton more options than you had in Brawl. That's saying something, even after naners were nerfed multiple times. And let's not forget he has a guard break. (dthrow glide toss)

Because no other characters in this game can shut down your options if you let them get a positional advantage on you, right?

Naners have been nerfed by being made techable. Bananas lead to techchases now.

Fox is, yes, probably still better. He has stupid **** too, all of which I should not need to list. I'm doing that for Diddy here because he's the topic. So yes, Fox is stupid. Yes.

But Fox is not getting nerfed. Ever. And everyone knows this.

Exactly that, it doesn't move Bowser. While Diddy's does move him, and that makes it both a movement option that can be made even safer (kick has less recovery and keeps momentum), and more lenient to use as it covers retreats decently. I mean, Bowser is Bowser, he's not really supposed to be that mobile, but I'm just making a comparison to the only other -real- air command grab I can think of.

Bowser's command grab is faster and has armor. Lucario's command grab has a hitbox in case he misses. Wario's covers his frontal body and can be combo'd in to due to very high speed. Diddy's command grab is the slowest of these and while it moves him it's also inside of him with a tiny tiny grab box and thus gets beaten by virtually anything and is mostly useful for hard reads and techchasing. It's not even a great move and it doesn't give great followups at high percentages unless you are fighting a spacie.

 

[GeZ]

Praxis with the knowledge.

Though this thread should probably be laid to rest.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

How are banana's a big deal lmao? They're significantly worse than they were in Brawl and even in Brawl I wouldn't consider them broken. The fact that they are techable and clashable makes them way easier to deal with imo. If your character doesn't have they best tools to deal with them then that's just part of the matchup. Also i'd like to see people take advantage of both of those options more to deal with bananas, because I'm pretty sure I could count on my hands the number of times i've seen someone tech a banana.

 

[Praxis]

How are banana's a big deal lmao? They're significantly worse than they were in Brawl and even in Brawl I wouldn't consider them broken. The fact that they are techable and clashable makes them way easier to deal with imo. If your character doesn't have they best tools to deal with them then that's just part of the matchup. Also i'd like to see people take advantage of both of those options more to deal with bananas, because I'm pretty sure I could count on my hands the number of times i've seen someone tech a banana.

I swear I am the only person in my entire region that techs bananas, and I'm the Diddy player, which just makes people hate bananas more (I get free smashes out of banana hit because they don't tech, they get nothing).

The saddest part is that banana teching is really easy because the tech window is smack in the middle of the trip, not at the moment you get hit. So you have plenty of time to see yourself get hit, get over the surprise and still tech successfully.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Dude are you kidding. Diddy needed every piece of buff that he got. Now, after we've realized some things are pretty stupid, I can see why even us diddy players would want needs, but first, look at this game. Every character has something stupid about them, some chars have multiple stupid things about them. And they need it in order to compete with each other.
Now I can agree that the barrel misfire is a tad ridiculous coupled with our lack of landing lag.
Fsmash is very strong, but also escapable. I can agree the power needs a slight tone down.
Fair needs to hit hard, but the angle should be adjusted.

THATS IT! That's all the character fixes diddy needs. Don't try and make this character "fair for others", its a fighting game. Characters need to be good.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Plus, let's not forget that diddy is considered a fast faller. He gets combod and punished pretty hard. As does Lucas and MK, who people also claim to be broken

 

[FlamingForce]

What exactly is the barrel misfire? I dont think I've had that happen to me yet.

 

[Praxis]

Dude are you kidding. Diddy needed every piece of buff that he got. Now, after we've realized some things are pretty stupid, I can see why even us diddy players would want needs, but first, look at this game. Every character has something stupid about them, some chars have multiple stupid things about them. And they need it in order to compete with each other.
Now I can agree that the barrel misfire is a tad ridiculous coupled with our lack of landing lag.
Fsmash is very strong, but also escapable. I can agree the power needs a slight tone down.
Fair needs to hit hard, but the angle should be adjusted.

THATS IT! That's all the character fixes diddy needs. Don't try and make this character "fair for others", its a fighting game. Characters need to be good.

Agree with everything you said very hard, except maybe fsmash. Fsmash isn't even that good, startup is slow, it's SDI escapable if you're fast. It's for hard reads and techchases mostly. I don't think it's even remotely an issue.

What exactly is the barrel misfire? I dont think I've had that happen to me yet.

When you get hit out of up-B, your barrel will sometimes rocket off and turn in random directions. There have been several instances where someone successfully punished Diddy's recovery and got killed by the random barrel preventing their recovery.

 

[FlamingForce]

Oh that thing.

They're damn near heatseeking from what I've seen lol.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

@ Praxis I'd like to say that fsmash is fine the way it is too, but the KB is crazy, even for it being the slowest smash. Diddys already got a good design, fsmash can be toned down by at least 20%

 

[Stryker]

Fair is a little silly, and barrel misfires are lame to play against.
Nothing made me happier when switching to PM then the fact that diddy still had nana's though. One of the most interesting aspect of his character in brawl was he could BYOB items to the party.
(Bring yo own banana's)

 

[Mr.Random]

He was overbuffed.

No.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Diddy isn't that powerful, and of course he gimps. That was his goal in Brawl with his bananas. I would even say that he's less powerful in PM than he was in Brawl. Also, bananas (which are his bread and butter) got nerfed already, and a fast paced game is also less favorable for banana play in my opinion. When looking at DP vs our very own Seagull Joe, we could see SJ getting punished pretty heavily for just trying to get out a banana at certain points in the game. Sure, barrel misfire sucks, but why are you trying to edgeguard him offstage anyway? Until players get more used to it, it's fairly difficult to sweetspot the edge, and they often overshoot and hit the stage. As long as you're just waiting for him there you'll be able to secure a punish.

 

[Phan7om]

Buff Peanuts!!!

 

[Hashtag]

Diddy isn't that powerful, and of course he gimps. That was his goal in Brawl with his bananas. I would even say that he's less powerful in PM than he was in Brawl. Also, bananas (which are his bread and butter) got nerfed already, and a fast paced game is also less favorable for banana play in my opinion. When looking at DP vs our very own Seagull Joe, we could see SJ getting punished pretty heavily for just trying to get out a banana at certain points in the game. Sure, barrel misfire sucks, but why are you trying to edgeguard him offstage anyway? Until players get more used to it, it's fairly difficult to sweetspot the edge, and they often overshoot and hit the stage. As long as you're just waiting for him there you'll be able to secure a punish.

It really depends on how you play diddy.
Diddy's offensive game actually fits well in pm. I think the overall faster pace actually buffed him. I think you have two types of diddy players, brawl diddys and melee diddys. Brawl seem to be more defensive, melee more offensive.

For the thread:
The ideal diddy, in my opinion will be the person who successfully and seamlessly and effortlessly manages to merge/transition between both.

Diddy wasn't over buffed, he's just really good, there is a distinct difference between the two.

Only thing warranting a possible change is the barrels. Though if they do that, they need to make it easier to sweet spot the ledge with up. Without that, our recovery would be one of the more free ones once people get used to it.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Diddy isn't that powerful, and of course he gimps. That was his goal in Brawl with his bananas. I would even say that he's less powerful in PM than he was in Brawl. Also, bananas (which are his bread and butter) got nerfed already, and a fast paced game is also less favorable for banana play in my opinion. When looking at DP vs our very own Seagull Joe, we could see SJ getting punished pretty heavily for just trying to get out a banana at certain points in the game. Sure, barrel misfire sucks, but why are you trying to edgeguard him offstage anyway? Until players get more used to it, it's fairly difficult to sweetspot the edge, and they often overshoot and hit the stage. As long as you're just waiting for him there you'll be able to secure a punish.

is pretty easy to gimp. Toss him offstage and either throw a nut or banana and then he usually can't make it back lol. It's all about timing.

 

[Praxis]

It really depends on how you play diddy.
Diddy's offensive game actually fits well in pm. I think the overall faster pace actually buffed him. I think you have two types of diddy players, brawl diddys and melee diddys. Brawl seem to be more defensive, melee more offensive.

For the thread:
The ideal diddy, in my opinion will be the person who successfully and seamlessly and effortlessly manages to merge/transition between both.

Diddy wasn't over buffed, he's just really good, there is a distinct difference between the two.

Only thing warranting a possible change is the barrels. Though if they do that, they need to make it easier to sweet spot the ledge with up. Without that, our recovery would be one of the more free ones once people get used to it.

Yeah, it's extraordinarily difficult to sweetspot the ledge. If you take out the barrel misfire, it'd be extremely, extremely easy for players familiar with the recovery to repeatedly just keep hitting Diddy back out there. Against good players I've had to eat 5-6 hits trying to recover until my barrel finally got me onstage.

is pretty easy to gimp. Toss him offstage and either throw a nut or banana and then he usually can't make it back lol. It's all about timing.

I find a partially charged peanut works better than anything. Every time I launch Falco offstage I shoot a briefly charged peanut. It covers his phantasm arc so much better.

 

[batistabus]

Are you saying Diddy is better than Fox now?

Implying that Melee Fox should be the standard for acceptably powerful.

Does Diddy have things that are better than Fox's usmash, nair, fair, and shine? How about all four put together?

Fox has an amazing fair? And maybe Diddy is better (I don't suspect that he is), but it's impossible to say since no top players have picked him up.

But yeah, I'm not totally happy with what I've seen from the monkey. There are a few silly things, with the most obvious being the random trajectory on his failed up-b. I also don't think he needs 2 bananas.

Either way, Guru seems to be playing Metaknight more often now, which leads me to believe Diddy is being more seriously looked at behind the scenes.

 

[Praxis]

Implying that Melee Fox should be the standard for acceptably powerful.

Fox should be the standard for the upper limit. He is the best character in Melee- if a character is better than Fox, they are "overbuffed". A character can be "very good" without being better than Fox, but if they're not better than Fox, they're not OP.

I think good characters should be targetting the range of Melee Peach/Sheik/Marth, but Fox is the upper limit on "good".

Fox has an amazing fair? And maybe Diddy is better (I don't suspect that he is), but it's impossible to say since no top players have picked him up.

Sorry, I definitely meant bair, not fair.

As to your top players comment, I want to point out that a lot of the best Diddies were very, very high level Brawl players. Junebug was one of the very top in his region, and Boss was a mid tier legend, hands down unquestioned the best Brawl player with multiple characters. Seagull Joe and I were also very notable mid tier mains. Bladewise is a top 40 Melee player.

Diddy is a solid character, but he is by no means "too good". He's probably top ten or fifteen in PM. No one who thinks he's OP seems to acknowledge that I keep saying this: Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Link, Pit, Lucas, Lucario, Mario, Mewtwo, and possibly Metaknight and possibly Snake are all probably better than Diddy in the current build IMO. Kirby and Game & Watch get better placements in tournament as well.

But yeah, I'm not totally happy with what I've seen from the monkey. There are a few silly things, with the most obvious being the random trajectory on his failed up-b. I also don't think he needs 2 bananas.

I can agree on the random up-B trajectory (IMO they either should make it less random or take it out and give him an easier sweetspot), but the banana thing is silly. Two bananas is a big deal for Diddy. Take out the second banana and banana logic loses a lot of depth. You can't throw a naner from a distance because your opponent can tech the trip or shield it and now he has your banana. The second naner is Diddy's counter to the opponent getting his naner (putting them on even ground and creating an ensuing struggle). I've had my opponent take both naners and wreck me before.

There's a lot of Diddy complainypants out there, such as yourself, who want Diddy to be nerfed despite him not being that great, despite his placements not being that high. "Oh, we just don't know if he's OP because top players aren't playing him" is a stupid argument- if he was OP, top players would pick him up. Good players gravitate towards good characters. If Diddy was too good, Diddies would be placing top and players would be improving their performance by switching to Diddy (a la Hax and Fox), consistently, in multiple regions. We are not seeing this at all, and Diddy may not even be in the top ten of the game.

Either way, Guru seems to be playing Metaknight more often now, which leads me to believe Diddy is being more seriously looked at behind the scenes.

Why are you divining Diddy's OP/not-OP-ness off of who one person plays in tournament?

 

[Mera Mera]

As someone who's starting to pick up Diddy, I do hope they take out the random barrels. Up B is a strong edge guard move imo, and it doesn't need the added benefit of possibly screwing the opponent even if they hit you out of up B.

That said, I definitely don't feel like it's "obvious" Diddy needs any nerfs. Even, when something isn't OP, I can see reasons for change (=/= nerf necessarily) when there are brain dead elements to a character or something that can force slow, unfun matches. But does Diddy really fit either of those? I don't really think he has any extensive dial up combos. Nanner combos are really interesting and based a lot on stage positioning (of both nanners and characters), so I'd hardly call him "unfun." His throws are pretty much just positional throws, he doesn't have a "no matter which way you DI this throw you're screwed" like Mario/Ganon d-throw. The only thing I think that might be somewhat simple is edge guarding with up B sometimes, but as I've only been using Diddy recently, I don't know if it's just that my opponents just haven't figured out how to deal with it yet. He's easy to edge guard imo... you just run away pivot grab if he goes for an on stage recovery... or run away -> crouch -> fsmash.

But yeah, at least from my impression, the only thing that might warrant change is his up B, particularly the random barrels but possibly something else on up B as well (like maybe how long it can charge?). Nanners are great and shouldn't be touched (unless you want to buff them lol). The only thing that maybe should be changed/fixed is how nanners bounce of of Link and Toon Links shields (like their actual shields when they are just standing). I've had nanners just kinda pass through them a couple of times and fly off the ledge. It's fine that they don't trip, but it looks weird for them not to bounce off or something.

Anyways, I'm no Diddy expert but that's my impression of what should maybe change. I can definitely understand complaints about the random barrels after hit, and I can see that up B as an edge guard in general might be a little too free/simple, so maybe one other change to up B would be warranted. I can also see why his recovery is absurd distance-wise with side B and up B, but I'm not sure that that's really a big deal.