JST5, 2 & 3 December, Holland, RESULTS: Amsah 1st, CJ 2nd, EK 3rd, Helios 4th!!!!!!!!

[sPArKeN]

I might be looking for a team partner (still...)
We are 3 people (Jadde, Kurre and I) and 1 of us will has 2 try and find another teammate.
I can only speak for myself when i say that I will gladly play with a foreigner if u are G00D.
I don't wanna play if I won't get 2 play with anybody, with high ambitions (like aiming for @LEAST, top 5). If there still is anybody out there who feels they wanna take this seriously and KNOW that they CAN play, then plz let me know .

Cya'll
(burgarn@hotmail.com)

 

[A-D]

Jeffzor, Wil je 'nog een MM DK vs Fox?

 

[Helios]

Ok, so it's QUITE obvious that the top 4 in Europe prefer the MLG ruleset. I know it would be an immense step going from this freak of a ruleset to MLG's version, but PLEASE, AT LEAST just make it ASP.

The point of advanced slob picks is to easen the blow that counterpicking produces. Like I said earlier, imagine playing fox vs sheik on FD. Fox wins, and the sheik goes Peach on Mute City! OUCH! Peach wins, but then fox goes Marth on Yoshi's Story. OUCH!
Those are two pretty **** tough match ups, and utterly unfair.

Jeffrey - Both regular slob picks and advanced slob picks would be much more suitable for a fair, high level tournament, and I BEG of you to use it for JST5. I won't even bother about the stages anymore, and according to the four best players in this continent, your rules are WRONG.

 

[ivootjes(nr18)]

I moneymatch any peach at mute city

Best four players?
EK
Amsah
Helios
CJ? (not from this continent)
Doug? (not top 4)
Don't know who this fourth player is, cause remen is 4th probably, please think before saying something...

BTW, i do agree on using the MLG Ruleset, but i think that it's too late for that now, why did nobody read the rules before

 

[Doraki]

Saying that the tournament is too close now or that every dutch tourney has had those rules is completely irrelevant to the fact that people want or don't want ASP instead of this heavy counterpicking, and to wether the rules should be changed or not. Really.

Anyway, I'm banning Mute city (I fail to see why Brinstar is banned and not mute city btw), so like JD already said, there aren't many stages left to counterpick, so it's not that bad.

Marc you're saying that we aren't explaining why the MLG ruleset should be better than this one, but you aren't explaining either why this ruleset should be better than MLG's.
The only argument I've seen in this thread is what helios said about overwhelming counterpick without letting the opponent switch character, and I also think it's too much.

 

[Helios]

Thank you Doraki.
It's funny how the only argument for having "broken slob picks" is "we've allways had it like that". Geez..

Anyway, it is not too late to change to Advanced slobs. Seriously, it wouldn't hurt anyone, it would just make things more fair. Everyone gets the chance to play fair games, without horrific, overpowered counterpicks.

Besides, seeing as how everyone's aware of this discussion, everyone would also be aware of the changes, and noone would get hurt.

 

[Enycecricket]

SHUT THE **** UP! As I've already explained on msn, it's standard to not use ASP here, we never have (no Helios, not at DT9 either). I'm not ****ing introducing it now because you want it. You've been to dozens of tournaments here and and none of them made use of ASP. And the fact that none of you Sweden (or whoever were with you when we talked), knew about this ruleset, just shows how stupid you are by not reading the first post, cause it's been in there since the beginning. Who the **** books their tickets anyway if they don't even know the ****ing rules >_>
And thinking that I only made the rules so, for my own personal benefits, is the most stupid thing I ever heard. Like I would even have a chance of winning prizemoney >_> So why would I make them how I like them most myself? -_-
Oh and about Marc, he agrees with me on this one, so don't even start bringing him into this ><

for the record i don't care about the rules...i just want to play smash. and I want to be in Amsterdam....Can't wait to see everybody in a couple days. Really lookin forward to meeting all the new people.

Faab I was speakin with Nihonjin and right now its a tossup btwn u and his cousin. I guess i will decide when i get there...thats unless 1 of you has already gotten a teammate!

 

[Enycecricket]

on another note...I want to be in a crew battle...if there is 1...I havent been keeping up with the 1st page of the thread so if if my crew battle statement seems stupid... OH WELL! lol

 

[EK]

Ivo i said 4 of Top 5

Amsah - Yes
Ek - Yes
Helios - Yes
Remen - No
Doug - Yes

i belive thats four people out from top 5 Europe so... think before you say something back ehh...

*Edit* You maybe ment Helios post, if so my fault

 

[Z-N_Freak]

omg it is comp O_o
lol

Anyways, about that counterpicking, isn't it so that when you may counterpick a char, you can also choose a counterpick stage, but if you'll do that your opponent (who won the round before) may pick another char. That would seem fair to me...

and is there any thread about ASP and MLG rule set? Cause I don't really know what you are talking about (I don't need to discuss, but I like to understand )

 

[FireMan.EXE]

Sheesh Helios, throwing such a tantrum a week 'fore the tourney >_>

Z-N: Google is your friend!


*Edit* After reading that article I think the only difference between the Dutch ruleset and MGL is that the winner can pick another character. I hardly see how that's fair for the weaker players of a tournament. The really proffesional players will spot the weakness in their opponents play (if it's universal in all characters) and can pick a better character accordingly. In our ruleset, the weaker player get's the advantage.
Sure, in matches like Amsah-Helios or whatnot the Dutch rules can be paining, but why don't agree verbally not to use them?
Really Helios, there is such a thing as a midway here >_>

 

[Helios]

Fireman, I can see why you'd want to stick with the current rules, but at top level play they're just plain broken. Giving the loser the ability to make use of both character and stage advantages, without giving the opponent a chance of at least adapting somewhat, that's just plain unfair.

In regular slob picks the loser can change EITHER character OR stage. This is completely reasonable, giving the loser a slight upper hand.
However, with your ruleset, the winner gets to chooes BOTH character AND stage, resulting in DEVASTATINGLY hard match ups.

Like I said earlier, the most outstandning examples would be peach on mute city or marth on yoshi's story. If it were regular slob picks, your opponent wouldn't be able to make such a move, seeing as how they'd have to start off as marth, meaning you'd be able to ban YS immediately. This is not the case here, where your opponent might start as samus or w/e.

Let's just face it, against some characters, Marth on YS is just too hard to beat. With the use of your ruleset, this could occur in any set. Same thing with the Peach+ Mute City deal.

However, when using Advanced Slob Picks, the immense upper hand the loser has is slightly toned down. Example:
We're playing "broken slob picks"

I play cf vs a marth player. I win on the first stage, FD.
My opponent counterpicks peach on mute city. I'm dead everytime I get off-stage. Peach wins.
Score is now 1-1.
I counterpick marth on yoshi's story. Peach is dead everytime I get a grab or a fair in. I win the set.

So, basically, whoever wins the first match wins the set, due to greatly overpowered counterpicks. When using Advanced Slobs, however, a counterpick does not equal a win (and it **** well shouldn't!)

My cf beats a marth on FD.
The other player goes mute city. Seeing as how I can't recover for **** with cf, I switch to samus. My opponent goes peach, and we fight an even match, with me losing in the end.
I thereafter choose yoshi's story, he changes to sheik, and I go marth. Another even match follows, with me coming out on top. I win the set.

Now tell me, which one seems more fair?

 

[Linkje]

A Special Message For Johnnyboy & Coen

Do Not Forget Your Working Clothes

Team C1000 Is Going To Kick Team Albert's ***!!!!

 

[Luma]

[x] MLG Rules


i am not one of the top players, thats true, but i would say i got some knowlegde about rules and stuff, and this looks like the worst rules ever on a pro tournament, why dont we play FFA with just pokeballs? xD

 

[Z-N_Freak]

lolz, I vote MLG to (not a pro player either though) I don't know about ASP yet, but this indeed looks a bit unfair. Though @ Helios, It is a bit stupid for you to be doing this discussion 6 days before the tourney -_-"

Still, I agree with you =)

 

[Helios]

I know it's in the 11th hour, but changing the rules 6 days before the tourney is still way better than using the current ruleset =/

 

[Kragen]

Wasn't ASP allowed in Zest?

And to prevent those impossible matches, don't we have stage banning?

Btw, Hipposai, Exalador: you could team.

SoftG-unit: now Greenmachine cancelled, do you need a teampartner?

 

[Jeffz0r]

Jeffzor, Wil je 'nog een MM DK vs Fox?

Jouw DK vs mijn Fox bedoel je? Sure. Als je omgekeerd bedoelt, dan nee, te weinig met DK gespeeld de laatste tijd

@Everyone else: Hmmm, maybe I'll introduce regular slob picks then, it's a good midway between the current rules and advanced slob picks. Just like how I chose a midway for the stages too.

 

[beunhaas]

Sparken.. I like to team but I don't know if I will come

 

[Helios]

Kragen - You can't ban both YS and Mute City, and you won't know which one's coming

Jeffzor - I'd say ASP is a compromise between slob picks and broken slob picks.
The loser can still choose both the stage and the char, but the winner has a chance of dealing with it too. It's the most fair, constructive ruleset imo.

 

[Enycecricket]

Hey Jeff this is your tourny...nobody is forcing people to come. Host it the way you see fit. You can be open to taking suggestions but you are the 1 hosting it, you are the 1 doing most of the work. Don't let people bully you into changing it to the way they want it. I'm not all about rulesets and it would be intersting to see the tourny occur the way you have it set up. I just DON'T want the tourny to last AAAAALLLLLLLLLLL day! if it can end by 10 so i can party by midnight I'M GOOD TO GO!

 

[FireMan.EXE]

Helios, you still haven't responded to me saying you can just verbally agree upon doing ASP. Who is going to stop you? Nazistic pedofile police? Then you can be all serious about competing in this tournament, and we, the less pro players can just have a fun day without all the hassle.

Don't get me wrong though, I agree with your reasoning that these rules are unfair if it's Pro vs Pro (like I said), but when it's pro vs less player, the less player practically has no chance of winning at all!
Besides, I really don't see the use of a rule that only +/-15 people can apply at this tournament >_>

Jeff, do whatever you want, it's not like anyone except the top tiers will notice anything anyway >_>

 

[Helios]

yeah well if jeffrey sees it fit to put items on very high that wouldn't make most people happy, that's for sure. Seeing how many people actually do disagree with the current ruleset, I find it necessary to change them. Most people seem in favour for ASP, I see no harm in using it.

 

[SMASH ALEX]

As a high level smashplayer I really have to agree with Helios.

The counterpicking rules that you're currently planning to use do NOT work. Basically, with these rules, winning the first game means winning the entire set. And lesser available stages do not help either. For every stage there is a character to abuse it, even on stages like Final Destination and Dreamland, which to some people might seem to be "neutral". But there is in fact no such thing as a fair stage. For instance, only allowing Final Destination to be played won't make the tournament more fair, it only makes everyone start using Falco. You see my point?

Also, saying that "we're going to use these rules because that's the way it's always been" is just plain stupid. The Netherlands are going to have to adapt to the rest of the world just like everyone else (if you guys want people from other countries to come to your tournaments, that is).

EDIT: I don't think that these rules will make people not show up for this one but I'm just giving advice on how to make your tournaments better in the future.

 

[Helios]

Fireman, I don't see your point. Why not use handicap, so that pro players have to play with damage ratio 0.5, so that lesser players can win too!!
No, really, if you think it's fair to let the loser get such a big advantage that lesser players beat top players because of it, then I don't think you belong in a serious tournament environment. That remark is what I like to call "scrubby", and I find it to be at the same level as saying that "c-sticking is cheap"

I for one thought the point of a serious tournament was to see who's the better player. However, it won't work if each tourney you go to has incredibly different rulesets. Now the best players in Europe want to fight using the better ruleset, what reason is there not to?

Besides, the only real difference would be, instead of loser chooses stage and character, that loser chooses stage, winner chooses characer, loser chooses character.

Here, the loser has the power not only to choose the level played, but he is also able to counterpick the winner's character. The loser has the advantage, but at least the winner has a CHANCE. ASP does not in any way give the winner the advantage, but it gives him a fighting chance to actually win a match that would otherwise be impossible.

 

[bornfidelity.com]

I vote picking either stage or character. Figuring I only play one character ^^

Sparken; don't give you much chance on a team-mate with your demands xD

top 5 lol, I think they have teammembers already.

 

[Exalador]

A Special Message For Johnnyboy & Coen

Do Not Forget Your Working Clothes

Team C1000 Is Going To Kick Team Albert's ***!!!!

I just wish Konmar was still around.. then i could make a team Konmar still have like 10 sets of work-clothes

step it up people... i want a teampartner ^^ ah well.. ill just see whos available at the tourney itself i guess..

 

[Joanna Dark]

hey uh... helios... getting back to your example of JST5's current ruleset, I think you just don't say it right. look, you win, then he wants to counterpick... but if he knows you will be able to counterpick marth on YS after that, why take peach? people are commonly reasonnable and think about that. plus, there's stage banning at this tournament. it makes the rule acceptable, even though ASP would be even better. I don't like when you say jeff's ruleset is broken, cuz I don't think it's true.
now, let me introduce you to the french ruleset ^^.
it's usually slightly different from ASP... like..
winner picks char then loser picks char and stage.
I admit it sounds kinda weird but it's our way

 

[Helios]

But JD, what if you fight an opponent who plays peach as a hidden secondary
You wouldn't ban Mute City, but when he counterpicks it, you can still go samus or something, instead of getting slaughtered with falco =)

ASP ftw!

 

[Marc]

Marc you're saying that we aren't explaining why the MLG ruleset should be better than this one, but you aren't explaining either why this ruleset should be better than MLG's.
The only argument I've seen in this thread is what helios said about overwhelming counterpick without letting the opponent switch character, and I also think it's too much.

You're the ones who want to drastically change the rules six days in advance, so I'd say you come with arguments first. About overwhelming counterpicks, STAGE BANNING IS ALLOWED. Also note that what's left really isn't instant win. Btw, when we proposed to ban Mute City and Yoshi's Story, all hell broke loose.

Also, the perfect ruleset does not exist, even though many people seem to think that everything American is perfect. I'm not saying ASP is really bad, but I think that what we have is better.

We also didn't make a fuss about RoS3 rules, which were really weird for us, so at least show some respect for our ruleset. We've never had issues with it, nor had foreigners coming here.

 

[Ryuker]

I've been rooting for mlg rules all the time and I stand by that point. If the majority is for MLG then I see no point not doing it . As for the top players that want to get better I think MLG is the way to go cause they wanna go to an MLG sooner or later. Adapting our ruleset to that ruleset so there is no confusion about it seems to me the best way for those that want to go to USA. I know there are people that are not taking this game really serious any more and don't have those kind of plans but let atleast make it the same for a international tourney. If we can't get this settled by compromising then why don't we just vote about it. I predict the majority will be for mlg but I could be wrong >.>.

as for fireman's statement: Tourneys are to see who are the best .You strive to win. By giving the "lesser" player a better chance your not really holding a tournament but just matches to let someone go through ( not to mention your playing a match that was actually decided before it started cause one has to be considered lesser right.). You might aswell do friendlies IMO.

Also DAX get on msn or something I need to know some info for housing!(( will only be online in the evening this week)

 

[(Prince) Shadow]

jeff, je kan er wel vanuit gaan dat ie zijn DK bedoelt

OMG
this weekend A-D and me were at Nnja. not only he ***** me, but his dog tried to **** me too XD
Hi Jacky!!

on the way back we needed to stop in roosendaal. when the train was on the station, it just slowed down but kept going
we ended up in antwerpen with no train back to the netherlands. we could get so far as essen and had to call my dad to come and pick us up

but the matches at Nnja were great. thanx Nnja and Fire
@ amsah
where were you?

 

[rensie nr1]

Haha sukkels:D


And i'm up for ASP. But I think that the current rules are good to. A good peach don't need to lose at YS. I'm not scared of marth. And a good fox or something can win on mute city.

And what makes a good player a good player? A very technical player? Or someone with very good mind games. Or someone who can play well on every stage. Or someone who wins on his own stage every time?

or someone who don't give a **** of different rules. And wins every the most matches.

 

[bornfidelity.com]

Like Ryuker says, we should be voting.

a) current set; loser picks picks stage and character
b) regular slobs (right?); loser picks stage or character
c) ASP (right?); loser picks stage, winner picks char, loser picks char

Ok so, option C would be the best, after some consideration... I'd personally dig B more because of my lack of secondaries but hey let's not have my personal gain be a barrier for the rest of the community.
(some others could learn from that *angelic*)

I say... Let's vote?

edit: and don't ***** about how I said 'gives *him* an advantage' because the only 'she' in the European scene is Yuna and she's not coming

 

[rensie nr1]

I think that you aren't the person who can say we vote. I think jeffzor decide that. Or you make your own topic for that.

 

[bornfidelity.com]

It's more of a list of options than a vote, and even then it's just a proposition lol.
(besides, if there was to be a vote, Amsah would have to make it because he's the only one with mod powers)

 

[Enycecricket]

As a high level smashplayer I really have to agree with Helios.

The counterpicking rules that you're currently planning to use do NOT work. Basically, with these rules, winning the first game means winning the entire set. And lesser available stages do not help either. For every stage there is a character to abuse it, even on stages like Final Destination and Dreamland, which to some people might seem to be "neutral". But there is in fact no such thing as a fair stage. For instance, only allowing Final Destination to be played won't make the tournament more fair, it only makes everyone start using Falco. You see my point?

Also, saying that "we're going to use these rules because that's the way it's always been" is just plain stupid. The Netherlands are going to have to adapt to the rest of the world just like everyone else (if you guys want people from other countries to come to your tournaments, that is).

EDIT: I don't think that these rules will make people not show up for this one but I'm just giving advice on how to make your tournaments better in the future.

for the record id didnt read what you wrote i just want to know if you are coming to the tourny!

 

[Jeffz0r]

I made my decision. Like Marc said, there's stage banning, so you can prevent the other player from choosing YS/MC or whatever other stage. And like JD said, if there might be the possibilty that the other player might switch to Marth if you win, why whould you start with Peach. Thus, I decided not to change the current ruleset.
(@Comp: my point exactly, lol)



my MM list (tell me if I forgot anyone xD)
Linkje 2 euro's
Jadde 1 euro?
Doraki 10 cent
(Prince) Shadow 50 cent
nofx4president (Timmy) 1 euro?
Z-N_Freak 50 cent
Ivootjes finish ''battle of the 5 cents''
Ivootjes his 2 stock vs my 4 stock, 1 euro?
BF 1 euro
Mind Trick 1 euro
Adam his Falco vs my Fox, 1 euro?
his DK vs my Fox, 1 euro
Dax 1 euro
Luma 1 euro
Nnja his Ness (1 stock) vs my Pika (4 stock), 1 euro
NGCXX 1 euro
DownA Sheik ditto, 1 euro
Happosai, 1 euro

 

[Helios]

Wow jeffzor, that's stupid. Everyone here is voicing their opinion, and so far I've seen like 2 people for the current ruleset, and what, 10 people for ASP? Come on jeff, you gotta do what's right for the tournament, and in this case it's quite obvious.

EDIT:
Stage Banning does not keep people from using broken stage/char combinations. I know certain people at this tourney that could go marth+YS, peach+MC, Samus+DL64, Falco+FD etc, and before the set starts you have NO idea which one it'll be. This is where ASP comes into practice. If your opponent comes up with a particularly cruel counterpick, you can somewhat adapt to it by switching your own character.
Your opponent still has the upper hand, but at least you've got an option that let's you get not completely screwed over.

ASP is used at EVERY major tourney right now, including MLG, FC, OC, etc. Having a sub-par ruleset will not benefit anyone, and it will only piss people off and make people more hesitant to come back for more tourneys.

 

[FireMan.EXE]

Fireman, I don't see your point. Why not use handicap, so that pro players have to play with damage ratio 0.5, so that lesser players can win too!!
No, really, if you think it's fair to let the loser get such a big advantage that lesser players beat top players because of it, then I don't think you belong in a serious tournament environment. That remark is what I like to call "scrubby", and I find it to be at the same level as saying that "c-sticking is cheap"

I for one thought the point of a serious tournament was to see who's the better player. However, it won't work if each tourney you go to has incredibly different rulesets. Now the best players in Europe want to fight using the better ruleset, what reason is there not to?

Look, ASP is a decent rule, and like I said, I'd back it, just not now. I'm going to put this to rest now, sine Jeff made his decision. I also want to note I resent it you calling me a noob in between the lines. Even if I am completely that
Just next time, when you go and sign in for a foreign tourney, and book your plane ticket and whatnot...

Read the frikkin' rules.



*edit*
Helios, stop trying to manipulate Jeffrey man :/ Things can't always go your way..