J's Quick Popcorn Mafia! D4 Totoro's Dilemma Ends 12/22; 12pm EST

[The Man From Delamar]

I think Del is the best shot right now, I'm afraid of scum soup hiding behind bad soup meta now, I want Gheb to post more because I want him as a town read but he doesn't seem willing

So what you're saying is...

Your shots are 1. Me, a convenient pick (literally everyone including the guy with the gun has at least chucked a lil dirt in my direction)

2. Gheb (you don't say you want Gheb, but you bemoan the difficulty of wrangling him from low input?), who is the other target of the guy currently saying you're high probability scum???

I get some of the things (SOME) you've said, but I swear I'm havin flashbacks of minimafia where I become the easiest "other target" on the laundry list because everybody already at least somewhat dislikes my slot and the bad guys hide in that cozy pocket.

Where have your reads shifted, if at all, in this game? And why? Soup says he's playing gut, you don't seem to be singin' the same song, so give me your rhythym.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

@#HBC | soup

Maven89

 

[Maven89]

I'm on phone, but no I'd shoot Gheb last over Soup. My reads changed on Kary and Soup sank lower with his recent play. Ill get to you when I'm with access to a computer. I'm worried with the way Soup is playing recently

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

In a game like that and in a game like this, I was in some regard clear so I don't really play as much to the appearance aspect rather just the reads. Yeah, my maven thought was bad but bare in mind I was only given one whole day to dissect it on top of the game having a low post count anyways. I'm a solid believer in just going with your gut in most cases because honestly, who cares if I was wrong? I don't. It was a D1 mislynch in my eyes and seeing the connections and how people would've reacted to it is much more important to me. That's just how I play, because otherwise I'll go in circles in my head trying to read into every single detail. Win some lose some, but don't treat me like I'm a nicompoop.

Honestly delamar, I sort of spilled the beans a long time ago why I was feeling Maven/Gheb in this post but perhaps my approach wasn't understandable so I'll break it down into laymen's terms.

Maven and Gheb are both people whom I believe fit the bill of the most common scum behavior seen throughout the most recent games. They are playing a very safe and formulaic game all the while not really taking any risks. Look at Maven/Gheb right now and tell me one of their solid stances given thus far (p.s. there isn't one). Have you ever heard of the phase playing to the room? That's what they both are doing right now I feel and I don't like the wishy-washyness from either, and furthermore, when I initially thought Gheb was OK I more so thought about the fact that I feel he would make some type of posts trying to gain protown credit by basically saying nothing.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

There's also another aspect that I like looking for and that's partner interaction. I had You The Man From Delamar and Kary as not aligned/not partner-esque so figuring out one of the two was my main goal. My main intent thus far has to antagonize and get people to react to it, but if this type of style is more fitting and more approachable to you, so be it.

Notice how Maven has kept Gheb within arms reach throughout, also. Think it's just a coincidence? You decide. I think if you happen to be scum and I am reading too much into something then good to you for becoming the lesser evil in my mind despite the fact earlier on I felt you were more about excuses and having a guilty conscience (your earlier interaction with Maven and how he shouldnt be spoonfed).

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Goddamn you, Soup. I really thought I might be able to understand you and then you drop this one.

I think if you happen to be scum and I am reading too much into something then good to you for becoming the lesser evil in my mind despite the fact earlier on I felt you were more about excuses and having a guilty conscience (your earlier interaction with Maven and how he shouldnt be spoonfed).

I specifically asked you why I'm now of the "lesser evil" category in PoE, and you didn't really explain that at all. That would've been alright I guess if you made strong points about Maven/Gheb (like really strong, "forget the other guys" level strong) and... I don't really think you did. You pointed out things that were on my mind but would they shake a prior scumread? To me? I dunno. Honestly I dunno how I became a lesser evil when I wasn't around while Kary was shot. If you're flyin on gut then whatever, but that should've made it real easy to come up with a sentence about why I fell into the wallpaper for your gut rumbles. But I've [almost] been wrong on that line of thinking before.

People bringing up self-consciousness really need to take a look at D2 of Minimafia and skim over it, and look how many times people started to circle around me for poopsock reasons including such gems as "he hasn't done anything townie enough to redeem the slot" (I replaced a null slot that was newbtown). Getting people to even vaguely consider what I felt were the important angles that would actually lead us to scum felt more like playing a scum game than a town game because any misstep and the whole town woulda snapped shut on me like a beartrap. Only one person had a strong enough town read on me that they didn't consider me a solid play

On a related note Maven89 tunneled me in that game to near-disaster and I'd really like to hear what he has to say about me that has had him so steadfast this entire time despite liking my answer to the one actual concrete thing he said.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

My reads changed on Kary and Soup sank lower with his recent play. Ill get to you when I'm with access to a computer. I'm worried with the way Soup is playing recently

Explain the bold. Were you not calling for Kary to be shot? What changed your read on Kary, because lol, only thing recent memory shows me as far as that's concerned is him literally getting a flip cuz he got shot.

My fingers are tented in contemplation as to the latter. Let's hear it -- preferably sooner than shortly before deadline this time, yeah?

 

[Maven89]

Still on phone will get to you later, but yeah the Kary read changed with the flip

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I specifically asked you why I'm now of the "lesser evil" category in PoE, and you didn't really explain that at all. That would've been alright I guess if you made strong points about Maven/Gheb (like really strong, "forget the other guys" level strong) and... I don't really think you did. You pointed out things that were on my mind but would they shake a prior scumread? To me? I dunno. Honestly I dunno how I became a lesser evil when I wasn't around while Kary was shot. If you're flyin on gut then whatever, but that should've made it real easy to come up with a sentence about why I fell into the wallpaper for your gut rumbles. But I've [almost] been wrong on that line of thinking before.

There's such a thing called priority and right now you have become less of a priority. I honestly can't give you the solid points and you only can believe how I feel about it or don't, because I'm no fool and making a wall here wouldn't be worthwhile let alone useful. I've given my summation of why I feel Maven is a good shot (Safe, Formulaic approach) and I could sprinkle more and more on there but I'm not really seeing the good in it.

If you wanted me to explain why I feel it's safe or formulaic, the least I could tell you to do is look at every post Maven has made, and more importantly, his inconsistent reads in regards to some players.

I don't like anyone's slot and the closest I have to a town read is Soup. Soup hasn't done anything bad in any way, and more then that is the only person I have trouble understanding why they would do what they're doing as scum. It would be at best "coasting", I guess, because he never made major push, but not many have, and I don't think it is. People can coast better then that, and the slot shows a real lack of concern over getting killed.

Gotta share Gheb's comment on Kary, I definitely got nervous over Gheb attempting to block Soup/Kary from getting shot and really don't like him flipping back to wanting to shoot Kary, but since we have so little to go on I see this entirely in line with how Gheb plays normally. But due to the first part of his flipping I'm not reading this slot as town yet, more null with a super super slight lean towards town. Enough that I don't want to shoot him.

I'd go with Man from Delamar or Kary. I was actually satisfied with his reply to the unusually antagonistic point, but he hasn't really comment much unless it's related to him, and with so little else that could be enough. Plus from what I saw in the other game he's not a bad player and could be a good shooter if town

Kary has just been very antagonistic and overall I hated his response to Soup about "boo hooo you hate my playstyle", the slot has done nothing but throw dirt on basically everyone and I really don't like any attempt to hide not saying things as being due to "playstyle". Kary would also be a good choice, and probably my first over Delamar.

It might just be me, but reading this post is the exact example of safe/formulaic. All the answers but none of the work done, feel me? I just feel Maven would be making a more proactive stance and actually try and interact with these people without being confronted himself. It's the type of behavior that I dislike the most because then it seems like you never really wanna get your hands dirty.

You could very well say "But soup! Maven interacted with Kary right after!" Well...yeah. But he was prompted to do so. He never took the initiative at first and even the most braindead scum knows he has to double down at times when he doesn't want to. I don't feel his reads are progressing in a logical sense and he's holding Delamar to great expectations but not really taking the time to question him. Yeah, it's a stretch. Yeah, I could be completely wrong, but that's the beauty of the game, right? If I didn't take risks, then the game would go nowhere.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

. I don't feel his reads are progressing in a logical sense and he's holding Delamar to great expectations but not really taking the time to question him. Yeah, it's a stretch

Actually, I find this to be a solid point. It's exactly what I was getting at when I said I was getting a minimafia flashback... ScumJ kept me in his back pocket because I was an easy target (almost everyone had voted me or expressed suspicion including clear town) and kept trying to deflect suspicion and FUD onto me yet never had the nuts to try to interact with me and get a read on me.

What Im trying to understand is why maven would be so opportunistic in his treatment of me despite knowing that his behavior would surely draw at least a heap of scrutiny if kary were to listen to him and give me the gun. What's the angle here, and how does that relate to a buddy? Thoughts?

Also while that was a good post about maven you didn't say literally anything about gheb.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I think the angle here is surviving over actually trying to reason with you. Scum doesn't really get anything out of confronting townies if they don't have to, so I'd say his scumLogic would be to just avoid if he can and continue to imply you're scum for old and busted reasons.

Gheb is just someone who I think could be his lackey, and I don't really have too much on him comparative to Maven whom I've been keeping more tabs on.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Still that ain't near enough to've bumped him up the kill list imp.

It's not that it "bumped him up to kill list" as much as I couldn't justify that townread I had on him to myself anymore. Plus the fact that virtually all my reads at that time were - and largely still are - gut ... made it hard for me to find a reason to argue against shooting Kary. I still didn't actually argue in favor of it though as I didn't want Kary to get the gun in the even that he flips town.

I didn't do anything wrong that game nor am I doing anything wrong this game. If you lack the ability to read someone that may play a bit out of your ideals of what a townie should, then it's your own fault.

Nope. You play like scum, you get killed. Every single time. Just because town!soup plays like scum every time doesn't mean he can be let get away with it.

You did a lot wrong in this game too. You did a lot of self-meta as soon as your name popped up as a potential shot. That's bad ... You're also asking explicitly to be shot. That's very bad. Why would town!soup want town!soup to be shot at again? That's intentionally asking for an anti-town move. The best that could possibly result in it would be that you get to "prove" your laughable point about everybody being "wrong" about you when it's just you being wrong about the game. But really, no townie in their right mind would want this game to come down to Maven vs Del vs Gheb with you having the gun. So yeah ... focus on your points on Maven? They're not bad tbh.

I think Del is the best shot right now, I'm afraid of scum soup hiding behind bad soup meta now, I want Gheb to post more because I want him as a town read but he doesn't seem willing

Why is Del the best shot right now?
I'm not willingly withholding content.

Maven and Gheb are both people whom I believe fit the bill of the most common scum behavior seen throughout the most recent games. They are playing a very safe and formulaic game all the while not really taking any risks. Look at Maven/Gheb right now and tell me one of their solid stances given thus far (p.s. there isn't one).

I've taken stances early and drew risky conclusions? Who was it that suggested to throw the idea of Kary or soup potentially being scum out of the window right of the bat? Also, you've described my town meta, not my scum meta.

 

[Maven89]

Alright, on computer. Going to re-read

Del comes down to best fit. Kary cleared, Soup I still think is probably town because if he was scum and got shot after asking he'd look ******** and while soup has problems I do have the meta opinion of him that he doesn't want to come off ********, he definitely seems to think it's really us that suck, the whole fact that he wanted to get shot looks like he wants to prove us wrong and shoot people without having to deal with us baddies, and less like he's trying to not get shot. Especially since if he got shot after asking to be he'd look ********, and going again on Soup meta I think that's the last thing he'd want. So I'm still reading this slot as town.

Gheb I have some minor qualms with just because of his early attempt to stop Soup and Kary from getting shot for no reason. That's basically it

I have been more laid back this game and not going at it but I've been pretty busy this week, and I've been doing a star wars marathon the last two nights with some friends, most of my recent contributions have been through phone while also watching movies, I'll get to this now.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not sure how to feel about your reasoning on town!soup.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

I don't get it. Ya think soup is town because he'd look stupid if he got shot and was scum because he's been gallivantin' about getting shot for a while now, and soup thinks we're stupid and that that'd prove our stupidity (I sure hope I got that right). Do you realize how frail that argument is? Do you think scum would just... be honest about the fact that being shot means they die, instead of simply bein' given the gun?

 

[Maven89]

Heading out again in a few minutes, will get my last post up because wow i forgot to finish this up. Post coming after this one

Quick notes now: my soup meta post was pretty convoluted. In short, Soup is either playing well, he's using his meta to avoid suspicion by acting crazy so no one wants to shoot him while making him an obvious shooting target, or Soup is town and is just being bad. I find the later more likely. What I was getting at was "Soup is either setting himself up to look like an idiot intentionally, or he's doing so unintentionally". The rest was why I don't think he was doing it intentionally.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

#HBC | Kary

 

[Maven89]

Del I can answer that question pretty easily

Can you point to a push you've made? At any point?

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Maven89

Just a half a page to a page ago you said you had soupscum because of his recent play. Now he's town..... Because of that exact same play?

 

[Maven89]

I don't see what the suspicion on me is for, I really don't feel my content has been lacking in regards to what is going on, maybe the last few days due to RL shenanigans, but overall I've been pretty pushy and don't get why I'm all of a sudden in the spotlight.

Delamar fits due to POE. I haven't seen anything from him that's townie and don't want to shoot Gheb or Soup. This makes Delamar the best fit for today's shot. I know that's not much but there isn't much, the other target would be Soup but like I said I'm thinking the slot is town. Gheb is the last one but I'd rather Delamar get cleared/shot before Gheb does.

 

[Maven89]

I think Del is the best shot right now, I'm afraid of scum soup hiding behind bad soup meta now, I want Gheb to post more because I want him as a town read but he doesn't seem willing

I said I was afraid that scumsoup could be hiding behind his bad meta. I thought it over some more and don't think it's as likely as I did. But I never called Soup scum

 

[#HBC | Kary]

The Man From Delamar

who is scum, and why

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Kary, how likely do you think a Maven-Del scumteam is?

 

[Maven89]

You're going to have to justify that read to me

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't have to justify anything to you.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Can I just throw my hands up and say "lets shoot Maven" and worry about gheb/soup later?

Going over things really didnt tell me much. Gheb hasn't been around and soup still says things that bewilder the sweet **** outta me.

Maven's content has been the strangest in my book. He was on soup before because of his recent play, and promised more content. Now through convoluted and WIFOMy logic, that same play that made him uneasy about soup's alignment makes him specifically read town? I dunno. I read that whole thing and kept thinking "What would bring about a change of heart here that he wouldn't've seen at the time he said he didn't like soup"?

Soup is right that he's been inconsistent. Literally my main doubt about all this was why he'd draw so much of my own scrutiny while trying to get me shot. Ive decided the answer is probably "WIFOM, with a side of Maven knows I would try not to tunnel with a lylo gun"

If I'm wrong Maven gets the gun and I am okay with that. Him hardreading scum on me is treacherous but I wouldnt expect him to tunnel and be bullheaded.

Maven's a good shot either way, and his logic has the most glaring shifts and quirks of the cast imo. Gheb and soup have been tough reads but ... Feh, I dunno. My first game here forgave weirdness like Maven's over and over again two Days in a row and then eventually circled back on it at the last second. I say lets break the cycle.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I don't have to justify anything to you.

*cough*

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Can I just throw my hands up and say "lets shoot Maven" and worry about gheb/soup later?

No, you cannot.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

You admit that soup's play is all over the place, but you still think Maven's play is the strangest?

Besides, we're not looking for 'most strange'. We're looking for scum.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

*cough*

Gesundheit!

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Kary do you disagree with my points about maven? The same span of play somehow gave him both reads you could take away and from it and yet I dont see the bridge between em. What's not scummy about that? I also frankly still think "you didn't come to a conclusion" is a flagrantly awful point on page 1 Day 1 when he watched me basically circle around scumJ over and over again in minimafia before I finally hit the bullseye. Sometimes I float ideas out to see what people make of or do with them, and he knows that.

I literally just played a game where soup instantly outscummed an obvious newbscum and tunneled a read into the ground to near disaster. I tried to question him and feel him out and sometimes I got his points and sometimes I was like "that didn't answer what I asked at all". In my book THAT is strange > scummy more so than Maven, if I have to pick one or the other.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I don't give a **** about what happened in some other game.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Kary, how likely do you think a Maven-Del scumteam is?

I would be very surprised.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm dumb for asking that question.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Kary do you disagree with my points about maven? The same span of play somehow gave him both reads you could take away and from it and yet I dont see the bridge between em. What's not scummy about that? I also frankly still think "you didn't come to a conclusion" is a flagrantly awful point on page 1 Day 1 when he watched me basically circle around scumJ over and over again in minimafia before I finally hit the bullseye. Sometimes I float ideas out to see what people make of or do with them, and he knows that.

I literally just played a game where soup instantly outscummed an obvious newbscum and tunneled a read into the ground to near disaster. I tried to question him and feel him out and sometimes I got his points and sometimes I was like "that didn't answer what I asked at all". In my book THAT is strange > scummy more so than Maven, if I have to pick one or the other.

So changing your mind is scummy when Maven does it, but when soup does it, it's just strange?

Are you actually looking at why someone would do these things as town or as scum?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I'm dumb for asking that question.

dumb, or scum?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

#HBC | ѕoup

 

[~ Gheb ~]

dumb, or scum?

Dumb - I was asking with the knowledge that I'm town.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Jesus, Kary. It's not like I'm ploppin my butt on meta here. But the game ended literal DAYS before this one started and 3/4 players here were in it. The fourth hosted it. It's relevant.

I also feel my points sit well in a vacuum. "You didn't come to a conclusion" on page 1 of Day 1 is an awful point. He could've just been tryin' to feel me out with an irreverent comment but after this long that's obviously not the case. I also find it weird that he's continuing to bore down on me but doesn't seem to be looking elsewhere despite that 50% of the people alive are mafia.

At this point there's not much more I can do besides barf up my many mixed feelings about the game, which would be a mess. Or go back over the game one more time and probably end up right back where I'm at while hoping to see somethin new.

Is there something specific you'd like me to look at? I can't tell if you seem uncooperative with my thoughts because you think I'm scum tunneling maven or you think I'm just wrong and focusing on dumb ****. A little direction would be nice, because I have no idea what argument in trying to win at this point.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Ninja'd.

Honestly? Yeah. Ive seen enough to think of maven as a far superior player to soup that makes better moves and focuses on more important things. That means he's gonna get more scrutiny when his opinion seems to be withering around. What can I say about soup changing his mind about things when his answer to everything is "my gut"?