Jiggs has trouble killing? What?

[PND]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237254

What are you guys smoking? Seriously?

Don't stale fair. Dash attack, DACUS, or utilt out of landing lag. Fsmash or rollout techs or rolls. EASY.

It's so easy to kill with Jiggs, I'm dumbfounded that you guys have been claiming otherwise. Normally I'm pretty supportive of you guys and the community, but seriously, if you have trouble killing lrn2play Jiggs.

Is this some kind of practical joke to get people to underrate Jiggs further?

 

[Airgemini]

I think she has the tools to get KOs early but sometimes it's hard to land them.

 

[PND]

Seriously, there should be a stickied, locked topic. It should just be called DON'T STALE FAIR. No discussion, no content, just DON'T STALE YOUR FAIR.

That's Jiggs 101, it's THE most basic lesson of Brawl Jiggs. We established this like a week into her metagame.

 

[*JuriHan*]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237254

What are you guys smoking? Seriously?

Don't stale fair. Dash attack, DACUS, or utilt out of landing lag. Fsmash or rollout techs or rolls. EASY.

It's so easy to kill with Jiggs, I'm dumbfounded that you guys have been claiming otherwise. Normally I'm pretty supportive of you guys and the community, but seriously, if you have trouble killing lrn2play Jiggs.

Is this some kind of practical joke to get people to underrate Jiggs further?

Jigglypuff is the master at situational kills.

However she is the worst at reliable kills.

F-air needs to be sweetspotted, and the problem with it is if you mess up it's already staled.

Dash attack requires high % or the opponent being near the edge of the stage.

F-smash is anything but reliable. It has a 5 frame start up lag, making it easy to avoid or cancel. Rollout requires mind games unless your opponent sucks, and I heard it's even worse offline.

U-tilt might be good, it would be nice if people would help me with kill %s on it. Still it requires a decent amount of damage and has poor range.

I know how to play Jiggz. It's why I'm probably dropping her for Kirby.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Jigglypuff is the master at situational kills.

However she is the worst at reliable kills.

Well said. I have to agree.

F-air needs to be sweetspotted, and the problem with it is if you mess up it's already staled.

True, but it also links perfectly into another Fair, and at high percents it's still sufficient, even though it's slightly staled.

Dash attack requires high % or the opponent being near the edge of the stage.

True.

F-smash is anything but reliable. It has a 5 frame start up lag, making it easy to avoid or cancel. Rollout requires mind games unless your opponent sucks, and I heard it's even worse offline.

It's more than a 5 frame start-up...

U-tilt might be good, it would be nice if people would help me with kill %s on it. Still it requires a decent amount of damage and has poor range.

UTilt kills Mario on FD at exactly 123% without DI (i can't believe I was bored enough to actually check that)

I know how to play Jiggz. It's why I'm probably dropping her for Kirby.

Don't do that! There are already way too few Jigglypuff users. We can't afford to lose anymore.

 

[PND]

Fair is often "staled" because it is a good approach, thus to is easy to hit with the sour spot of it. Sourspot fair leads directly into sweetspot fair. A fresh fair is a reliable kill. Ergo, fair is a reliable kill move. It kills early and is easy to land.

Dacus, Utilt, and Dash attack should be used to punish landing lag and openings in the defense. These are semi reliable, and while not as easy to hit as fair, they can be used with relative ease, although it requires a touch of foresight. Ergo, these are semi reliable kill moves. The require a certain situation that is very easily set up, however they kill later than fair.

Rollout and Fsmash are used for tech chasing and following rolls. These are situational kill moves. You can't easily set these up, but you can capitalize when the opportunities present themselves. They kill earlier than fair, but are much more situational.

And then there's Rest, which we're still trying to categorize and figure out.

There. That is Jiggs kill game. She actually has a large amount of tools for killing. Jiggs does not have problems killing, if you have problems killing, you are a bad Jiggs. The opponent should not live past 150%, ever. More commonly, you should be killing around 120%, character dependent. If you have trouble with these, you need to get better.

I can't put it any simpler. Killing is actually one of Jigglypuff's greatest attributes, and if you fail to kill the opponent, the fault doesn't lie with the character. She has the tools. In fact, a lot of characters WISH they had the killing tools we had.

 

[Frolossus]

O.o i've never had trouble killing with jiggs.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Fair is often "staled" because it is a good approach, thus to is easy to hit with the sour spot of it. Sourspot fair leads directly into sweetspot fair. A fresh fair is a reliable kill. Ergo, fair is a reliable kill move. It kills early and is easy to land.

Dacus, Utilt, and Dash attack should be used to punish landing lag and openings in the defense. These are semi reliable, and while not as easy to hit as fair, they can be used with relative ease, although it requires a touch of foresight. Ergo, these are semi reliable kill moves. The require a certain situation that is very easily set up, however they kill later than fair.

Rollout and Fsmash are used for tech chasing and following rolls. These are situational kill moves. You can't easily set these up, but you can capitalize when the opportunities present themselves. They kill earlier than fair, but are much more situational.

And then there's Rest, which we're still trying to categorize and figure out.

There. That is Jiggs kill game. She actually has a large amount of tools for killing. Jiggs does not have problems killing, if you have problems killing, you are a bad Jiggs. The opponent should not live past 150%, ever. More commonly, you should be killing around 120%, character dependent. If you have trouble with these, you need to get better.

I can't put it any simpler. Killing is actually one of Jigglypuff's greatest attributes, and if you fail to kill the opponent, the fault doesn't lie with the character. She has the tools. In fact, a lot of characters WISH they had the killing tools we had.

So basically you reiterated what I just said... only difference is you think a move that requires a sweetspot is reliable. I guess it boils down to opinion now. To me it's almost saying like Zelda's lightning kick or Falcon's knee is reliable. It's a similar situation, although less extreme. However it is only how I look at that move...

 

[Metatitan]

Jiggs has about as much killing issues as peach. In fact both are very comparable. Both their most reliable kill moves are Fair. However, Fair is also both their moves and is usually just too **** good to be fresh. While at mid-high %'s, it is wise to lay off Fair so that you can freshen it up but let's face it, you will not always be able to. As Dina said, she is amazing at situational kills and horrible at consistent KOing.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Jiggs has about as much killing issues as peach. In fact both are very comparable. Both their most reliable kill moves are Fair. However, Fair is also both their moves and is usually just too **** good to be fresh. While at mid-high %'s, it is wise to lay off Fair so that you can freshen it up but let's face it, you will not always be able to. As Dina said, she is amazing at situational kills and horrible at consistent KOing.

Peach's f-air> Jiggz imo. It doesn't require a sweetspot. I would gladly exchange power for lack of precision.

 

[Metatitan]

OMG peach's Fair>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jiggs' entire arsenal. But I'm comparing the two moves just for the sake of comparing.

 

[PND]

Keep fair fresh. It's not hard.

And Peach's fair > Jiggs? LAWL. Tell that to my record against Peach.

 

[Metatitan]

Get a record against praxis or edrees please

 

[PND]

How 'bout Niko or BentoBox? Canada's best. Just saying, I have the credentials. Fair only >> Jiggs if you're stupid, predictable, and bad at this game.

 

[Metatitan]

Niko is not even close to their league.

 

[Airgemini]

Enough Peach talk
You can carry on in the General Discussion though

 

[PND]

Big Talk, eh? At CoT4, I believe, I think it was Hylian who told Niko he was, at that point in time, better than Edrees, and probably the second best Peach player, next to Azen.

Say what you want about "close to their league", but I've seen him play names like KingAce, Percon, and Ally.

So trash talk more please. It just shows you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[*JuriHan*]

 

[Metatitan]

Lol mike don't be dumb. Edrees places higher/more consistently than any other peach, has the best peach footage, AND has the best posts. So yeah edrees is the best peach.

 

[PND]

ITT Region Bias.

Anyway, let's get off of the Peach discussion.

Jiggs can kill, reliably, if you don't stale Fair. I can't even believe this is becoming such an issue, as I said before, this is THE most basic principle to playing Jiggs there is.

 

[Metatitan]

Not really region bias, more like everyone's opinion.

And no she can't mike. She still does have killing issues, you'll find yourself being forced to use it on good opponents.

 

[*JuriHan*]

ITT Region Bias.

Anyway, let's get off of the Peach discussion.

Jiggs can kill, reliably, if you don't stale Fair. I can't even believe this is becoming such an issue, as I said before, this is THE most basic principle to playing Jiggs there is.

a move that requires a sweetspot, and can be staled as a result of a failed sweetspot is NOT reliable.

 

[SuSa]

Are people telling PND he doesn't know his stuff? This is blasphemy.
/joke

*grabs my popcorn and watches the show*

IMO:

I use Bair/nair strings to rack up damage with 1-2 fairs thrown in at the beginning (<50%) so I've never really had problems killing.

 

[PND]

The sweetspot is massive, and easy to hit and time. By leading into a sourspot into sweetspot you just have to wait a few percent longer, as the damage of the sourspot almost makes up for the lack in power.

And if you're "forced" to use fair, that's player fault, not character fault. If you're ever "forced" to do something, you're being outplayed.

 

[Metatitan]

Ally forced you to use it. Anyways I never said the sweet spot was hard to hit with, I just said that against good players they will force you to use the move period.

 

[PND]

Ally did. Because Ally outplayed me significantly.

That wasn't Jiggs fault, that was MY fault because *I* panicked. And Ally's fault because he's ****ing beast.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

O.o Peach board drama was slipping in here?

i don't think JP has that amount of trouble killing, 150% is lovely percents to score KOs at...unless its like ROB....

/peachbrain.

 

[Metatitan]

By killing issues I mean she will kill around 130%-160%

 

[mountain_tiger]

Since we're comparing Peach and Jigglypuff's Fair, and me being a Peach main and a Jigglypuff secondary, here's take an in-depth look at them:

Overall, both of them have similar killing statistics. They kill from about 120%+ on middle weight characters like Mario (assuimg they don't DI), and are generally very potent as
edgeguarding moves. Also, as someone else has stated, both will almost certainly have their Fairs staled by kill percents, because both are useful for approaching and spacing.

Jigglypuff's Fair is noticeably quicker than Peach's Fair. Jigglypuff's comes out on frame 8; Peach's is on frame 16, making Jigglypuff's slightly harder to telegraph and predict. Both have noticeable landing lag if not auto-cancelled, but very little landing lag if they are (tbh, you should always be auto-cancelling them), making them hard to punish. Peach's is even harder to punish because she has considerably more shieldstun on here (14 frames; Jiggly's only has 4). In other words, Jigglypuff's is faster on start-up but is easier to punish if shielded (though you can simply weave away to resolve this).

Peach's Fair also has the beenfit of not needing to be sweetspotted. Although Jigglypuff's sourspotted Fair leads to sweetspotted Fair, unfortunately it will have 90% of its original power max, making it weaker and less useful for killing. In terms of range, Peach's wins by a considerable amount. Peach's is simply better ranged, even factoring in Jiggly's aerial momentum as well as the Fair attack, which again is one of the reasons why it is so useful.

All in all, I would say that although both characters have great Fairs, Peach's is marginally better. Only marginally though, mind you. Jigglypuff's Fair is not to be underestimated.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Since we're comparing Peach and Jigglypuff's Fair, and me being a Peach main and a Jigglypuff secondary, here's take an in-depth look at them:

Overall, both of them have similar killing statistics. They kill from about 120%+ on middle weight characters like Mario (assuimg they don't DI), and are generally very potent as
edgeguarding moves. Also, as someone else has stated, both will almost certainly have their Fairs staled by kill percents, because both are useful for approaching and spacing.

Jigglypuff's Fair is noticeably quicker than Peach's Fair. Jigglypuff's comes out on frame 8; Peach's is on frame 16, making Jigglypuff's slightly harder to telegraph and predict. Both have noticeable landing lag if not auto-cancelled, but very little landing lag if they are (tbh, you should always be auto-cancelling them), making them hard to punish. Peach's is even harder to punish because she has considerably more shieldstun on here (14 frames; Jiggly's only has 4). In other words, Jigglypuff's is faster on start-up but is easier to punish if shielded (though you can simply weave away to resolve this).

Peach's Fair also has the beenfit of not needing to be sweetspotted. Although Jigglypuff's sourspotted Fair leads to sweetspotted Fair, unfortunately it will have 90% of its original power max, making it weaker and less useful for killing. In terms of range, Peach's wins by a considerable amount. Peach's is simply better ranged, even factoring in Jiggly's aerial momentum as well as the Fair attack, which again is one of the reasons why it is so useful.

All in all, I would say that although both characters have great Fairs, Peach's is marginally better. Only marginally though, mind you. Jigglypuff's Fair is not to be underestimated.

ok.. that's nice and all... but the point of the matter here is Jigglypuff has no SOLID, RELIABLE kill move. This is why she is bottom tier imo. If her f-smash wasn't nerfed she would be higher. Hell she probably would be winning tournaments frequently.

 

[PND]

As much as I agree, and as correct as that is, the issue I have is with the "certainly be staled" part.

No. I usually don't stale my fair at all, and when I keep it fresh, I win for more often than if I stale it for approaches and damage.

 

[xTrav8]

I don't see what good can come from debating about who has the better Fair.

 

[Metatitan]

Idk about winning tournies but if she had her old f smash she wouldn't be bottom tier.

And Mike of course we try to keep it fresh but accept that most of the time opponents force you to use it.

 

[xTrav8]

Meta's clearly trolling.

If he really and truly thinks that your opponents can force you into situations where you need to use it.

 

[Metatitan]

is that you alex?

 

[Airgemini]

Meta's clearly trolling.

If he really and truly thinks that your opponents can force you into situations where you need to use it.

He's not trolling.

I don't see what good can come from debating about who has the better Fair.

There is none, let us move on

 

[*JuriHan*]

Idk about winning tournies but if she had her old f smash she wouldn't be bottom tier.

And Mike of course we try to keep it fresh but accept that most of the time opponents force you to use it.

Sakurai hates Jigglypuff in Brawl. He did every possible thing to make her have a hard time winning. Quite possibly the most discouraging inbalance in the game is her f-smash compared to Kirbys. Not only does it have lower knockback.... but more start up time. Does that make any sense?

I'll come back to puff in SSB4, when she has her ground game back.

 

[xTrav8]

Air, you of all people should know I'm not being serious.

If you really knew who I was...

 

[Metatitan]

Lol I compared the two Fairs to show you that both moves are so good that most of the time they will be stale. They are both incredibly useful spacing tools.

 

[xTrav8]

As far as killing goes, Fair's reliable. Only problem being that it's predictable. Since it's one of her few kill moves, we just have to work on not making it totally obvious.