Social Jigglypuff Social Thread (read first post!)

[MarioMeteor]

The issue with that statement is that you're thinking purely from a competitive perspective. Sakurai and his team have to balance for all levels of play-

And look how that turned out. You've got Sheik who is literally Ms. Easy Combo, and Zero Suit Ms. "I Kill People At 43%" Samus. Sakurai didn't balance the game for all levels, he balanced it purely on free-for-alls, or so he told us at least.

while an easy combo like that might be balanced out by her flaws on the competitive level, from a low-level perspective it's just asking for puff to be called "braindead" or "easy-bake."

Again, I refer you to Sheik and Samus. I honestly don't give a **** what people call Jigglypuff, and I'm sure no one else does if it comes with the price of her being a better character.

If there wasn't already a stigma about puff in smash being bad, melee puff probably would have been considered broken by anyone below midlevel.

That's not why she's not considered broken. Jigglypuff was developed and made popular in Melee because she was discovered to be a character that counters the dominant superpowers in Melee. If it weren't for that fact, I doubt Jigglypuff would've gotten nearly as much attention as she did, sad as it may be.

Stick that stuff onto, say, melee GW for example. Or even better, compare us to ZSS- we both have a kill move that is both fast and powerful, but (among other things) what sets her apart is that hers can be combos into pretty easily, and all she needs to start with is a grab. Which....is also the reason why people dislike her as much as they do.

I don't get what you mean. It would be impossible for Game & Watch to have combos into 9 due to the RNG, if that's what you mean, and again, Samus is self-explanatory.

Personally, I have no issue with the way they handled Rest and its setups this game; in fact, I think they balanced it spectacularly. Yes, they can be difficult or situational, but when they end with a move that functions like Rest does then they honestly should be. Our issue is that we don't really have much outside of these setups, which a kill throw would do nicely without going overboard.

I agree, Rest is balanced nicely, but Jigglypuff isn't. They balanced Rest without balancing it around the character it belongs to, which is the problem. We have no setups, no real working strategies aside from out of a crouch and out of shield, and it's more of a glorified smash attack then Rest, utility-wise.

 

[Codaption]

And look how that turned out. You've got Sheik who is literally Ms. Easy Combo, and Zero Suit Ms. "I Kill People At 43%" Samus. Sakurai didn't balance the game for all levels, he balanced it purely on free-for-alls, or so he told us at least.

....Welp, great way to start my followup post. Not really much I can do to argue against this, really, it's a pretty good point- top tiers in this game are generally on another level entirely compared to the rest of the cast, though I will point out that beyond that the roster is balanced fairly well.

Again, I refer you to Sheik and Samus. I honestly don't give a **** what people call Jigglypuff, and I'm sure no one else does if it comes with the price of her being a better character.

Luigi and Yoshi were both characters that have gotten short end of the stick in previous games, and look at what people say about them now- Yoshi is another character that's generally disliked, even though he's not as much of a threat at higher levels (right now, anyway), and the recent nerf to Luigi Dthrow is something that people have been clamoring for for a while. Donkey Kong was in a similar boat, but I've started hearing complaints about his throw combos after his buff (mostly from RDR7 on the skype chat, he despises the mu now) and of course he becomes Satan in the eyes of everyone as soon as you turn on customs. While I'd still play her regardless of what people call her, I'd still prefer something that takes some skill to pull off over something as easy-bake as, say, Uthrow-> Rest. Even if Puff grab kinda sucks.

That's not why she's not considered broken. Jigglypuff was developed and made popular in Melee because she was discovered to be a character that counters the dominant superpowers in Melee. If it weren't for that fact, I doubt Jigglypuff would've gotten nearly as much attention as she did, sad as it may be.

I mean... again, she's not really considered broken, because she's Puff. People look at her, see she's weak and has low range and dies to a light breeze and ooooh she's just a garbage joke character. It was even more of an issue back then because Rest's function as a move wasn't really well-known; if there was more widespread knowledge of what Rest could do and what it could be done out of, however, I doubt that'd be the case.

(also, Puff loses to spacies. Just sayin.)

I don't get what you mean. It would be impossible for Game & Watch to have combos into 9 due to the RNG, if that's what you mean, and again, Samus is self-explanatory.

I wasn't really thinking of any specific characters when I said GW, I was just looking for somebody that's kinda mediocre as far as melee tiers go- I could've gone with Mewtwo, Bowser, Kirby, etc. That being said, he actually makes for a good example- think about if 9 was the only number that judge ever landed. Suddenly he gains absolutely terrifying kill potential from a move he shouldn't have much trouble setting up for at all. Even if the power of the move was reduced to compensate, just picture the uproar that'd cause from anyone outside of high play...it'd be Brawl Ike complaints on steroids.

I agree, Rest is balanced nicely, but Jigglypuff isn't. They balanced Rest without balancing it around the character it belongs to, which is the problem. We have no setups, no real working strategies aside from out of a crouch and out of shield, and it's more of a glorified smash attack then Rest, utility-wise.

While our setups are situational, they are there, and in fact there's quite a few of them- most of them can kill around the 35-45% range, which is awesome if you can land them. I maintain that the main issue with Puff is that she lacks much outside of these combos, though the shield nerf did quite a bit to help us out in that department as well as make the aforementioned setups less risky to attempt. (RAR Dair does very nicely against shield, for example, and if you land it you can setup Rest on reaction- or Fair, which also leads into Rest or a WoP.)

 

[MarioMeteor]

Luigi and Yoshi were both characters that have gotten short end of the stick in previous games, and look at what people say about them now- Yoshi is another character that's generally disliked, even though he's not as much of a threat at higher levels (right now, anyway), and the recent nerf to Luigi Dthrow is something that people have been clamoring for for a while. Donkey Kong was in a similar boat, but I've started hearing complaints about his throw combos after his buff (mostly from RDR7 on the skype chat, he despises the mu now) and of course he becomes Satan in the eyes of everyone as soon as you turn on customs. While I'd still play her regardless of what people call her, I'd still prefer something that takes some skill to pull off over something as easy-bake as, say, Uthrow-> Rest. Even if Puff grab kinda sucks.

The difference between those two and Jigglypuff is that they were already decent-ish characters prior to their subsequent braindead-ification in Yoshi's case and redesign in Luigi's. Jigglypuff was...bad in Brawl, and as such her buff didn't get her to quite the level it got Luigi and Yoshi. A combo into Rest would probably make her as good as she could've been, had she not been bad in Brawl. Besides, you're not adding something braindead to a complex character, you're taking some unnecessary complexity off of that complex character, which still keeping the complexity intact, for the most part.
Completely different cases from Luigi and Yoshi.

I mean... again, she's not really considered broken, because she's Puff. People look at her, see she's weak and has low range and dies to a light breeze and ooooh she's just a garbage joke character. It was even more of an issue back then because Rest's function as a move wasn't really well-known; if there was more widespread knowledge of what Rest could do and what it could be done out of, however, I doubt that'd be the case.

(also, Puff loses to spacies. Just sayin.)

That would be somewhat true if this were 64 or Brawl, but in Melee Jigglypuff's combo game was unrivaled. That, combined with the fact that she could almost one-shot the entire cast, made it so that you'd have to be a complete fool to judge Jigglypuff simply because she's Jigglypuff. Everybody who was anybody respected her power in Melee.

She also wins against every other top tier in the game, except for Falco, who she goes even with.

I wasn't really thinking of any specific characters when I said GW, I was just looking for somebody that's kinda mediocre as far as melee tiers go- I could've gone with Mewtwo, Bowser, Kirby, etc. That being said, he actually makes for a good example- think about if 9 was the only number that judge ever landed. Suddenly he gains absolutely terrifying kill potential from a move he shouldn't have much trouble setting up for at all. Even if the power of the move was reduced to compensate, just picture the uproar that'd cause from anyone outside of high play...it'd be Brawl Ike complaints on steroids.

Judgement and Rest are two different types of moves. Having Jigglypuff combo into Rest and having Game & Watch always get a 9 aren't even comparable situations. You could've said if Luigi got his Fire Jump Punch's sourspot removed, that would be a better example.

While our setups are situational, they are there, and in fact there's quite a few of them- most of them can kill around the 35-45% range, which is awesome if you can land them. I maintain that the main issue with Puff is that she lacks much outside of these combos, though the shield nerf did quite a bit to help us out in that department as well as make the aforementioned setups less risky to attempt. (RAR Dair does very nicely against shield, for example, and if you land it you can setup Rest on reaction- or Fair, which also leads into Rest or a WoP.)

My bad, I should've reiterated "not situational as hell."

 

[Jiggly]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm a bulbasaur...

 

[Codaption]

The difference between those two and Jigglypuff is that they were already decent-ish characters prior to their subsequent braindead-ification in Yoshi's case and redesign in Luigi's. Jigglypuff was...bad in Brawl, and as such her buff didn't get her to quite the level it got Luigi and Yoshi. A combo into Rest would probably make her as good as she could've been, had she not been bad in Brawl. Besides, you're not adding something braindead to a complex character, you're taking some unnecessary complexity off of that complex character, which still keeping the complexity intact, for the most part.
Completely different cases from Luigi and Yoshi.

Jigglypuff in Brawl was bad almost entirely because of the removal of hitstun, Rest's being nerfed was just the extra mile curtesy of Sakurai- she got along swimmingly in the previous two games. Yoshi, on the other hand, was only good in one game prior to sm4sh, and that was 64; if it weren't for aMSa, Melee Yoshi may as well not exist, and he just barely scraped by in Brawl. Luigi in general just has a bad track record.... but I digress.

You say this would take some of the complexity off of us, but not many players would know how to deal with this and if it became a thing our grabs would become more annoying than Mario's (or maybe Pikachu's, since there are still plenty of people who don't know how to di). Both were propelled into hatedom by a single factor (Yoshi's benefits from the new ledge mechanics, Luigi by dthrow) that suddenly brought their strengths to light, and this sounds exactly like the kind of thing that'd do the same to us.

That would be somewhat true if this were 64 or Brawl, but in Melee Jigglypuff's combo game was unrivaled.

She also wins against every other top tier in the game, except for Falco, who she goes even with.

My response to both of these points is to point you towards Fox. His combos don't end in something as crazy strong as Rest, but a well-implemented series of waveshines can kill you just as early without suffering an almost guaranteed punish even on hit (in fact, there's almost no risk at all). Not only that, but he flat-out has better combo options than Puff.

It's very well known that Jigglypuff's only truly disadvantageous matchups are against spacies, but I fail to see how Falco could do better than Fox here. The matchup is very similar except that all of Fox's best kill options send you off the top and his survivability is higher by a decent margin.

That, combined with the fact that she could almost one-shot the entire cast, made it so that you'd have to be a complete fool to judge Jigglypuff simply because she's Jigglypuff. Everybody who was anybody respected her power in Melee.

Everybody who was anybody was also vastly outnumbered by the sea of nobodies outside of tourney play. The average player had no idea what Rest did- the only place it was really mentioned was on her all-star trophy, even the game manual failed to mention anything. That's assuming the player would even care to look- the average player would have also been ignorant of her solid combo options and unparalleled edgeguarding, and would see nothing but a prank character that couldn't take a hit or deal one for her life. Some players can and will be attracted by somebody like this (Pichu was made bad on purpose, but people still play him and enjoy doing so), but overall these qualities would turn away the majority of people who owned the game.

Judgement and Rest are two different types of moves. Having Jigglypuff combo into Rest and having Game & Watch always get a 9 aren't even comparable situations. You could've said if Luigi got his Fire Jump Punch's sourspot removed, that would be a better example.

You're missing the point of my post. I was trying to get across that any character that had something like Rest at their disposal and didn't already have Puff's "trashy" stigma would've been heralded as cheap and broken (assuming in this case that said technique would be better known than Rest was in Melee).

My bad, I should've reiterated "not situational as hell."

And in turn, I will reiterate my point that that's exactly how they should be. Doesn't mean they're impossible, they're still very applicable for a player that knows how to properly handle Puff (Dair-> Rest and advancing Fair-> Rest work just about anywhere, even if the percent ranges are strict, and Utilt-> Rest is an easy kill setup when used on a platform).

Sometimes I wonder if I'm a bulbasaur...

Hey man, s'alright

 

[MarioMeteor]

Jigglypuff in Brawl was bad almost entirely because of the removal of hitstun, Rest's being nerfed was just the extra mile curtesy of Sakurai- she got along swimmingly in the previous two games. Yoshi, on the other hand, was only good in one game prior to sm4sh, and that was 64; if it weren't for aMSa, Melee Yoshi may as well not exist, and he just barely scraped by in Brawl. Luigi in general just has a bad track record.... but I digress.

Why she was bad makes no difference. The point is, she was definitely not good, and subsequently buffed. Yoshi never fell into the category of being "bad." He was never bottom tier or unusable or anything like that. Luigi was...meh in 64 (but that games had a roster of 12 characters so tiers are kind of obsolete, much like 64 in general), okay in Melee and slightly better in Brawl.

You say this would take some of the complexity off of us, but not many players would know how to deal with this and if it became a thing our grabs would become more annoying than Mario's (or maybe Pikachu's, since there are still plenty of people who don't know how to di). Both were propelled into hatedom by a single factor (Yoshi's benefits from the new ledge mechanics, Luigi by dthrow) that suddenly brought their strengths to light, and this sounds exactly like the kind of thing that'd do the same to us.

Mario's grabs aren't annoying provided your character has a combo breaker and you have decent DI. As for Jigglypuff, you're not "bringing her strengths to light." As great as that would be, combing into Rest isn't exactly brand new to Smash. It was in the former two Smash games and you can combo into Leaping Rest if you want to get technical. Put it this way, if Luigi's (who's infinitely better than Jigglypuff) Fire Jump Punch got a range and strength buff and that STILL didn't make Luigi broken, having a significatly worse character do something that she should've been able to do from the start will not negatively affect the games balance in any way.

My response to both of these points is to point you towards Fox. His combos don't end in something as crazy strong as Rest, but a well-implemented series of waveshines can kill you just as early without suffering an almost guaranteed punish even on hit (in fact, there's almost no risk at all). Not only that, but he flat-out has better combo options than Puff.

And your point is? Fox is universally considered disgustingly good.

It's very well known that Jigglypuff's only truly disadvantageous matchups are against spacies, but I fail to see how Falco could do better than Fox here. The matchup is very similar except that all of Fox's best kill options send you off the top and his survivability is higher by a decent margin.

I didn't create the matchup chart. That's something you'll have to take up with an entirely different group of people.

Everybody who was anybody was also vastly outnumbered by the sea of nobodies outside of tourney play. The average player had no idea what Rest did- the only place it was really mentioned was on her all-star trophy, even the game manual failed to mention anything. That's assuming the player would even care to look- the average player would have also been ignorant of her solid combo options and unparalleled edgeguarding, and would see nothing but a prank character that couldn't take a hit or deal one for her life. Some players can and will be attracted by somebody like this (Pichu was made bad on purpose, but people still play him and enjoy doing so), but overall these qualities would turn away the majority of people who owned the game.

We're talking Melee, no one gave (and still doesn't give) a **** about the average player or his opinion.

You're missing the point of my post. I was trying to get across that any character that had something like Rest at their disposal and didn't already have Puff's "trashy" stigma would've been heralded as cheap and broken (assuming in this case that said technique would be better known than Rest was in Melee).

The problem with that analogy is that no one has anything like Rest, and even if they did, they wouldn't be branded cheap due to the buffalo herd, they would be carefully scrutinized and judged by the top players of Melee, many of which are responsible and famous for causing the rise and fall of several characters. I don't know where you get the notion that people deem Jigglypuff "trash" without hesitation, but if that trend really exists, it certainly wasn't alive during Melee's years. If you came up to somebody who knew the first thing about Melee and called Jigglypuff trash, you'd get laughed out the room.

And in turn, I will reiterate my point that that's exactly how they should be. Doesn't mean they're impossible, they're still very applicable for a player that knows how to properly handle Puff (Dair-> Rest and advancing Fair-> Rest work just about anywhere, even if the percent ranges are strict, and Utilt-> Rest is an easy kill setup when used on a platform).

You think the main gimmick of a character should be unreliable and situational to perform? Again, I direct you to Melee. There Jigglypuff could reliably combo into Rest, and it wasn't by any means "broken." The few combos she has here are way too unruly to use in an actual match. Hence why no ones actually performed them.

 

[Jiggly]

i cant even bother with the multi quote posts.


So we need a DJ headset costume in sma5h

 

[Codaption]

Why she was bad makes no difference. The point is, she was definitely not good, and subsequently buffed. Yoshi never fell into the category of being "bad." He was never bottom tier or unusable or anything like that. Luigi was...meh in 64 (but that games had a roster of 12 characters so tiers are kind of obsolete, much like 64 in general), okay in Melee and slightly better in Brawl.

Yoshi wasn't irredeemable in Melee and Brawl, but he definitely wasn't solo viable and picking him up didn't exactly do much to help cover matchups. Just because a character isn't trash tier doesn't mean they aren't bad, you know.

As for Luigi... ignoring his pre-patch self in smash 4, the guy peaked in Melee. At midtier. He's probably the only unviable character in smash 64 at the moment, and in Brawl he was just barely behind Yoshi (who was himself just a few spaces shy of being completely unviable).

Mario's grabs aren't annoying provided your character has a combo breaker and you have decent DI.

Not everyone has decent DI. In fact, a laggy number of people still don't know it exists.

As for Jigglypuff, you're not "bringing her strengths to light." As great as that would be, comboing into Rest isn't exactly brand new to Smash. It was in the former two Smash games and you can combo into Leaping Rest if you want to get technical.

Luigi has always had high damage output; Yoshi has always had his grinder Dair (it's always tanked shield, too) as well as generally good frame data and priority. There might've been some forum posts scattered about complaining about these things, but they definitely ramped up once smash 4 saw the success of both of these characters. Luigi I can understand, since dthrow let him capitalize on his powerful aerials more, but.... Yoshi's frame data got nerfed. And got further nerfs in the earlier patches... I mean, jeez.

The same issue looms before Jigglypuff in this situation. If she suddenly got something easy that people had issues dealing with, the strengths she has now would just be seen as extra jank to be hounded on by nitpickers as if they'd never existed before.

Put it this way, if Luigi's (who's infinitely better than Jigglypuff) Fire Jump Punch got a range and strength buff and that STILL didn't make Luigi broken, having a significatly worse character do something that she should've been able to do from the start will not negatively affect the games balance in any way.

Luigi's viability came (and still comes) from his dthrow followups. Fire Jump Punch used to be one of those followups, but it required an airdodge read and was overall not very reliable. He also lacked the mobility to consistently catch people with the thing raw. A powerful move won't do much to boost a character up on the tiers... just look at Ganon, 75% of his moveset kills and he's still horrid because he can barely land a single hit.

Yes, I realize that Jigglypuff falls into a similar boat with Rest. However, a powerful kill move and an easy setup into a powerful kill move are two drastically different things. Especially a throw setup. I mean seriously, even Melee Puff could only get away with that on two characters and even then it was within a specific percentage range.

And your point is? Fox is universally considered disgustingly good.

Speaking of Melee.... my point is that Fox not only rivals Jigglypuff's combo game, he surpasses it. Not by a small margin, either- he has access to both his grounded and aerial moveset, where Jigglypuff mostly has to rely on her aerials (even if she were to spend enough time to reliably get a rest setup, the only options she had were Utilt and Uthrow).

I didn't create the matchup chart. That's something you'll have to take up with an entirely different group of people.

Neither did I, which is probably why I messed up on Falco. You were right about that, at least, but Fox definitely beats her and people don't do much to contest that.

We're talking Melee, no one gave (and still doesn't give) a **** about the average player or his opinion.

The problem with that analogy is that no one has anything like Rest, and even if they did, they wouldn't be branded cheap due to the buffalo herd, they would be carefully scrutinized and judged by the top players of Melee, many of which are responsible and famous for causing the rise and fall of several characters. I don't know where you get the notion that people deem Jigglypuff "trash" without hesitation, but if that trend really exists, it certainly wasn't alive during Melee's years. If you came up to somebody who knew the first thing about Melee and called Jigglypuff trash, you'd get laughed out the room.

....Do you...not know how how infinitesimally Melee's competitive scene was when it started out?

I really don't want to call that statement flat-out wrong, but I mean..... it's the exact opposite of what was the case way back when. Almost everybody knew about Melee; almost nobody knew about competitive Melee. You can't act as if the opinion of the average player didn't matter, because there's a reason why they were the average player: they vastly outnumbered the members of the Melee scene. Even members of other fighting game communities scoffed at the idea that a cutesy game about cutesy characters had enough depth to make it worth putting time into. While opinions of competitive Melee players were the most informed, from Nintendo's family-friendly eyes their small numbers also made them the least important group to cater to.

I really don't know where you got the impression that that wasn't true, because it still is to this very day. Yes, plenty of normal people know about tourneys now, but few care to get into it and those who do know next to nothing about what it entails. That wouldn't be an issue if smash was aimed towards hardcore gamers, but it isn't and Nintendo games rarely are; as much as I'd love to see that happen, the company has chosen to try and please the majority. Aka, the average player.

Going off of that...

You think the main gimmick of a character should be unreliable and situational to perform? Again, I direct you to Melee. There Jigglypuff could reliably combo into Rest, and it wasn't by any means "broken." The few combos she has here are way too unruly to use in an actual match. Hence why no ones actually performed them.

The average player thought Puff was worthless in Melee. Even now, there are still plenty of people who don't know what Rest does.

 

[Desu~]

Hey guys, remember that time when people thought that a fast-fall uair could lead to a reliable 0 to death combo?





...






Wait, what? You guys still believe in that?

 

[Jiggly]

Hey guys, remember that time when people thought that a fast-fall uair could lead to a reliable 0 to death combo?





...






Wait, what? You guys still believe in that?

I never said it was reliable lol

I still hit it, or variations of it.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yoshi wasn't irredeemable in Melee and Brawl, but he definitely wasn't solo viable and picking him up didn't exactly do much to help cover matchups. Just because a character isn't trash tier doesn't mean they aren't bad, you know.

I know, but Luigi and Yoshi were neither.

He's probably the only unviable character in smash 64 at the moment,

Link disagrees with that statement.

Not everyone has decent DI. In fact, a laggy number of people still don't know it exists.

That would be a personal problem. It can be done, and that's what matters.

The same issue looms before Jigglypuff in this situation. If she suddenly got something easy that people had issues dealing with, the strengths she has now would just be seen as extra jank to be hounded on by nitpickers as if they'd never existed before.

Again, scrubby little opinions that nobody would care about.

Luigi's viability came (and still comes) from his dthrow followups. Fire Jump Punch used to be one of those followups, but it required an airdodge read and was overall not very reliable. He also lacked the mobility to consistently catch people with the thing raw. A powerful move won't do much to boost a character up on the tiers... just look at Ganon, 75% of his moveset kills and he's still horrid because he can barely land a single hit.

If you punished an air dodge with Fire Jump Punch you must be God himself. FJP was guarenteed after down throw if you didn't DI, and using laggy attacks was, and still is, a horrible mistake to make against Luigi when he can run up and end your life with the press of two buttons. If your grab gets sidestepped, if you misplace something, you are just waiting to get lit up. It's not a reliable finisher, but the character would undoubtedly be even worse without it.

Yes, I realize that Jigglypuff falls into a similar boat with Rest. However, a powerful kill move and an easy setup into a powerful kill move are two drastically different things. Especially a throw setup. I mean seriously, even Melee Puff could only get away with that on two characters and even then it was within a specific percentage range.

You know, I didn't specify the difficulty of it. I just said I wanted a combo into Rest that was more reliable then what she has now. Like, decreasing the knockback on up tilt, which has a horrid hitbox, or make it DI dependent from a down throw, like Luigi's.

And just so you know, it could actually be performed on Falcon in Melee.

Speaking of Melee.... my point is that Fox not only rivals Jigglypuff's combo game, he surpasses it. Not by a small margin, either- he has access to both his grounded and aerial moveset, where Jigglypuff mostly has to rely on her aerials (even if she were to spend enough time to reliably get a rest setup, the only options she had were Utilt and Uthrow).

Still don't see how this is relevant to whether or not Jigglypuff should have a Rest combo.

Neither did I, which is probably why I messed up on Falco. You were right about that, at least, but Fox definitely beats her and people don't do much to contest that.

Jigglypuff has the best sprites.

....Do you...not know how how infinitesimally Melee's competitive scene was when it started out?

I really don't want to call that statement flat-out wrong, but I mean..... it's the exact opposite of what was the case way back when. Almost everybody knew about Melee; almost nobody knew about competitive Melee. You can't act as if the opinion of the average player didn't matter, because there's a reason why they were the average player: they vastly outnumbered the members of the Melee scene. Even members of other fighting game communities scoffed at the idea that a cutesy game about cutesy characters had enough depth to make it worth putting time into. While opinions of competitive Melee players were the most informed, from Nintendo's family-friendly eyes their small numbers also made them the least important group to cater to.

I really don't know where you got the impression that that wasn't true, because it still is to this very day. Yes, plenty of normal people know about tourneys now, but few care to get into it and those who do know next to nothing about what it entails. That wouldn't be an issue if smash was aimed towards hardcore gamers, but it isn't and Nintendo games rarely are; as much as I'd love to see that happen, the company has chosen to try and please the majority. Aka, the average player.

Nice rant. Anyway, I notice you were speaking in the past tense. "When it started out," "outnumbered," "way back then." When Melee was in its prime, when people like (insert famous Melee player here) started showing up, neither the average player nor his opinion mattered anymore. Not to Nintendo, but to the community in general. Why do you think Fox was nerfed in Brawl? Not because some random scrub whined about him, but because after careful development of the characters abilities, by competitive players, it was universally decided that Fox was, by a decent margin, the best character in Melee.

The average player thought Puff was worthless in Melee. Even now, there are still plenty of people who don't know what Rest does.

See above. This also applies:

Again, scrubby little opinions that nobody would care about.

 

[Codaption]

............Gah.

I'm going to do one more set of replies, but after that I'm gonna cut myself off here. I'm trying to be as civil as I can, but it feels like we're arguing about two completely different things; it's starting to get annoying and it showed in my last post, so reply as you will but I'm gonna free up the social thread before I lose my cool any further.

I know, but Luigi and Yoshi were neither.

Again, not solo viable, not really worth the time as a secondary. That's certainly not good by any stretch.

Link disagrees with that statement.

......Okay, that's actually fair. The current dreamland-exclusive legality is most certainly not in his favor.

That would be a personal problem. It can be done, and that's what matters.

Well, I--

Again, scrubby little opinions that nobody would care about.

......Sigh

I'm gonna focus on this one, because this pretty much sums up my frustration. The thing is, there are people who care about those "scrubby little opinions." Those people would be Nintendo, the people who put the work into balancing the game. As far as that goes, they care about maximizing the amount of people within their chosen audience that enjoy their game, and that audience is comprised mostly of casual smash players.

Yes, you're absolutely right from a competitive perspective, and you should feel free to discuss such an opinion however you like. What bothers me is that you're acting as if it's the only one that matters. The truth is, there's two separate groups here, and while both seek to enjoy the game their beliefs on how that is achieved are completely different. A player who just wants to experience all they can of the game can't really do so when there's something that impedes their ability to do that. Yes, they could probably look up how to get around it, but plenty of people don't have the time to dump into swimming through the maze of technical terms that are native to the big scene; much less dump the hours into labbing in order to figure out some random trick,or quicken their reflexes or whatever to help them beat their neighbor's egg-spamming Yoshi. By that point, you might as well already be a competitive player.

Everyone hears the stories about casuals getting hounded by tournament enthusiasts- meanwhile, I've seen the exact same thing happen in reverse. Frankly, neither should be imposing their values on one another, and it bothers me when people act as if only one subset of the community is important.

If you punished an air dodge with Fire Jump Punch you must be God himself. FJP was guarenteed after down throw if you didn't DI, and using laggy attacks was, and still is, a horrible mistake to make against Luigi when he can run up and end your life with the press of two buttons. If your grab gets sidestepped, if you misplace something, you are just waiting to get lit up. It's not a reliable finisher, but the character would undoubtedly be even worse without it.

My bad, I should've been clearer with what I meant. I was talking about punishing the landing lag on an airdodge- looking back, that's not really much of a read, so again I apologize for that.

Not really the point I was making, though. Yes, he'd certainly be worse but the difference wouldn't really be all that substantial.

You know, I didn't specify the difficulty of it. I just said I wanted a combo into Rest that was more reliable then what she has now. Like, decreasing the knockback on up tilt, which has a horrid hitbox, or make it DI dependent from a down throw, like Luigi's.

I was mostly going off of the throw followup and how it might cause balance issues on the aforementioned casual level (especially if we're talking Uthrow, that thing really isn't affected much by DI at all), but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to something that's just generally more reliable. I personally would love to see something change for Uair, it was always my favorite Rest setup and that thing could use the love anyway.

And just so you know, it could actually be performed on Falcon in Melee.

I wasn't ignoring him when I said that, you could certainly get away with it but it wasn't true like on Fox and Falco. He falls fast, but he's nowhere near their level.

Still don't see how this is relevant to whether or not Jigglypuff should have a Rest combo.

.....Honestly, I have no idea how we even got to this. One of us probably made an analogy to Melee and it just spiraled out of control, it's not the only time it's happened in this discussion lmao

Jigglypuff has the best sprites.

YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEES

Nice rant. Anyway, I notice you were speaking in the past tense. "When it started out," "outnumbered," "way back then." When Melee was in its prime, when people like (insert famous Melee player here) started showing up, neither the average player nor his opinion mattered anymore. Not to Nintendo, but to the community in general. Why do you think Fox was nerfed in Brawl? Not because some random scrub whined about him, but because after careful development of the characters abilities, by competitive players, it was universally decided that Fox was, by a decent margin, the best character in Melee.

Like I said...the Melee scene is alive and thriving, but its population is still outnumbered by the common players of the community.

As for Fox, his nerfs were actually pretty in line with what you'd expect a game designer to change. Particularly Shine- having invincibility and a hitbox and reflecting all on frame one was in general not the most superb idea. A lot of his other nerfs were from more universal changes implemented in Brawl as well- drill's new diagonal-up trajectory was in line with most drills in that game (barring Kirby, of course), loss of wavedashing meant he couldn't get as much off of shine or cancel laser landing lag as easily, combo game being completely dismantled due to new hitstun mechanics, etc.

Not really sure why jumping out of shine and 3% lasers got the boot, though. Those honestly may have gotten some inspiration from competitive Melee.

 

[PowerPuffPlayer]

Am I late to the party gentlemen.

 

[Codaption]

 

[pidgezero_one]

Returning for my semi-regular "being a ****ing showboat with my jigglypuff collection" post

Spoiler

Plushies (that back one is 2 feet tall)



Figurines/keychains/vinyl







Pokemon cards



Clothing


Not pictured: Matching pajama bottoms to white shirt, and JisuArt shirt that I ordered at smashcon and is on its way

Tote bag



Posters



Perler beads



Buttons



Papercraft



Magnets

of course my favourite puff that currently exists in my house is the 64 top player & best puff main YBOMBB, but he's not mine

Some more updates to the collection!

Clothing that was missing from my last post.

Yes that is Jigglypuff wearing a christmas hat.

Now those of you who know me well will know why this one is special. That pin on the right is red bow puff, specifically her smash 64 iteration, using pound. I am a Smash 64 player who mains red bow puff and pound is my favourite move. Perfect or too perfect?

LOL at my timing.

 

[Quarium]

i wish utilt was a set knockback attack that could lead to rest in a big spectrum of percent, it's hard to land so it would be justified and would also apply metal pressure to the player you go agaisnt (I dont wanna ge hit by that uptilt omg I must play carefully) think of it as melee puff's up throw but harder to land and witha bigger range of percent to kill at from a confirmed rest.

 

[drakeirving]

at least uptilt kills by itself

 

[MarioMeteor]

at least uptilt kills by itself

That is nice. It'd be better if the hitbox wasn't the size of a needle. Come to think of it, that pretty much sums up Jigglypuff's entire moveset.

 

[Wintermelon43]

That is nice. It'd be better if the hitbox wasn't the size of a needle. Come to think of it, that pretty much sums up Jigglypuff's entire moveset.

And then when there IS a needle attack.....

 

[Codaption]

give us smash 64 Kirby utilt pls

 

[PowerPuffPlayer]

give us smash 64 Kirby utilt pls

Make it happen Nintendo.

 

[Jiggly]

I wish utilt had higher KB growth but lower BKB

 

[Codaption]

That would actually be amazing :D

Honestly, as it is now I still adore Utilt. the lack of a hitbox in the front is an issue, but imo low-percent Rest combos and high-percent cheese kills mean that it's still our best grounded move outside of DA.

 

[Jiggly]

utilt needs more range behind it too.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I heard a rumor that the sunhat increases Jigglypuff's hitboxes and makes Rest easier to land.

 

[Vinylic.]

Sounds like BS.

Anywho, this is an obvious tip that seems to be overlooked, but hitting villager's ballons as he reaches the ledge with dsmash can extend the attack to where it's possible to hit him too. True edgeguarding right there.....in a way.

 

[Codaption]

I heard a rumor that the sunhat increases Jigglypuff's hitboxes and makes Rest easier to land.

You can ignore that, friend. Alt skins are designed specifically to have the exact same properties as the defaults- anything else would screw with game balance and basically defeat the purpose of having alt skins in the first place. People say similar stuff about male/female Robin but it's all false.

If you ever hear something like that again, remember that that's why we got Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina- they wanted to give each different properties from the originals, and they couldn't really get away with that with them just being skins.

This is an obvious tip that seems to be overlooked, but hitting villager's ballons as he reaches the ledge with dsmash can extend the attack to where it's possible to hit him too. True edgeguarding right there.....in a way.

Ah, I love abusing hitlag like this. It's a shame opportunities for it don't really come up often, but with the absurd nerfs to Villy's recovery this sounds like it could actually be pretty useful.

 

[MarioMeteor]

You can ignore that, friend. Alt skins are designed specifically to have the exact same properties as the defaults- anything else would screw with game balance and basically defeat the purpose of having alt skins in the first place. People say similar stuff about male/female Robin but it's all false.

If you ever hear something like that again, remember that that's why we got Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina- they wanted to give each different properties from the originals, and they couldn't really get away with that with them just being skins.

Ah, I love abusing hitlag like this. It's a shame opportunities for it don't really come up often, but with the absurd nerfs to Villy's recovery this sounds like it could actually be pretty useful.

I'm not saying it's credible, I just thought it was interesting. Really, it would've made more sense in Brawl, where the sunhat was comically huge.

 

[Jiggly]

bow puff makes her 100x sexier, so you're wrong Codaption

 

[MarioMeteor]

bow puff makes her 100x sexier, so you're wrong Codaption

You're both incorrect, as it's been mathematically AND scientifically proven that the sleep cap is by far the most superior accessory.

 

[Jiggly]

You're both incorrect, as it's been mathematically AND scientifically proven that the sleep cap is by far the most superior accessory.

Go away, you are not permitted to opinionate here.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Go away, you are not permitted to opinionate here.

I permit myself to be here. Problem?

 

[Desu~]

Sunhat is so love, that people have actually mistaken it to have extended hitboxes.

 

[Codaption]

....Wait, I tested it. Sunhat actually gives Rest infinite range and disjoint. And 1 Frame duration.

 

[Shrimpchris]

As much as I absolutely adore the nappy hat, gonna have to go with the bow here. I also like the color it makes puff herself better than most of the outfits too, so that helps it a bit.

 

[Jiggly]

Smashboards feels so cluttered with the new characters on the sides, I miss the way it used to be.

 

[Kojii]

This just happened. Doesn't seem that useful, so I'm sharing it in social instead of meta.

 

[MisterDom]

This just happened. Doesn't seem that useful, so I'm sharing it in social instead of meta.

Accidently jumped before the rest and footstooled...

Well, we still take those! Nice kill!

 

[Jiggly]

This just happened. Doesn't seem that useful, so I'm sharing it in social instead of meta.

I got a crazy utilt- dair- fair- dair- fair combo on a ganon, went to rest but I got the footstool and killed myself

 

[Vinylic.]

I'd rather continue doing more aerials than SD for it lol. It's not worth resting offstage unless it is 100% guaranteed.