Jigglypuff Matchup #4: Zelda

[RhedKing]

I CAN HAS USMASH?!?

Yes you can has but it's execution is slower than a Fair or nair. It's a powerful defense, but not opportunistic
Let's assume it was timed perfectly (as It probably would be) even still the Jiggs would see it coming and DI backwards, to an Fsmash.
What I was trying to say was that Jiggs has a few key ways to get to Zelda, as many will agree Zelda's (power) attacks have quite some recovery lag, perfect for the covert Jiggs to slip in for the rest, or a grab or tilt at least

I CAN HAS BAN?!?

A valid point sir. But for friendlies it would be pretty amusing.


As for the up angled Ftilt, I'm not to concerned, air dodge to grab (that's the magic hand swipe right?) It stays out for a short time and has some recovery, so it shouldn't be to much of a problem. Although You could definitely catch someone off guard with it, and computation would be tight for the jiggs player, unless of course they planed on going to the air dodge from the diagonal, expecting the attack.
If they were going for a legitimate hit you're probably right that the swipe could do the trick.

Therefor the key would be to vary jump height and approaching angle and speed, to reduce the chances of either the Usmash or the Up Ftilt connecting. Probability wise, success for the air dodge to grab is at about 60% making it a a good approach with some painful consequences 40% of the time.

It's useable, but not abuse-able, in fact, it should be used rarely to up success rate.

I know my logic isn't perfect or anywhere near it, but regardless it's a decent approach.

 

[MrEh]

Yes you can has but it's execution is slower than a Fair or nair.

Usmash comes out quick. Like, really quick.

A valid point sir. But for friendlies it would be pretty amusing.

No arguments here.

 

[Kataefi]

Read back a few pages to understand Zelda's defence. USmash is frame 6 and almost as fast as jiggs' aerials. This is why it's broken in this matchup. Jiggs has difficulty approaching in front of Zelda with her jab. Utilt trades, and Utilt kills Jiggs insanely early =(

If Zelda plays unbelievably defensive and shields and spotdodges like the mad ***** she is, jiggs will be going through hell.

But Zelda's no counter for your reasons stated, because jiggs can bait. You must realise though that the majority of Zelda's moves are on par or are stronger than Ike's. Uair, Fair, Bair, Dair, Utilt and USmash come to mind. She's also much faster than him. This doesn't bode well for jiggs' weight.

 

[MrEh]

You must realise though that the majority of Zelda's moves are on par or are stronger than Ike's. Uair, Fair, Bair, Dair, Utilt and USmash come to mind. She's also much faster than him. This doesn't bode well for jiggs' weight.

No one takes Ike seriously anyway.

Spoiler

lol wut?

 

[RhedKing]

Vegeta, what does the scanner say about the strength of Zelda's moves?!
Their STRONGER THAN IIIIIIIKE!!!
What, stronger than Ike?
STRONGER THAN IIIIIIKE!!!!!

But enough with the bad references, What you say is all true but I think the baiting is a viable method to win in this match up. If you have a character on character battle, Jiggs will lose, overall the battle in this case is about openings, and predicting moves (in hindsight I really didn't make that very clear)
What I was trying to say was that once a Jiggs sees that Usmash or Nyru comming out, they can make the shot (I believe)
I've barely touched Zelda in brawl so I guess my flaw in this arguement Is that I'm pitting melee Zelda against Brawl Jiggs.

Of course this could turn into a deffensive battle, aka a very LONG battle.

PS: How'd you guys get the character next to the report post button
I WANT A JIGGLY PUFF PLZ KTHNKS.

 

[Kataefi]

Awe WHAT?! I struggle with good Ikes =( He fights for his friends and I'm not one of them =(

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

that's because Zelda strugles with ike on most stages.... oh, and yeah, jiggly can win, but she has to work 10 times harder than zelda to win... that's kinda what happens when you fight againsta hard counter.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Read back a few pages to understand Zelda's defence. USmash is frame 6 and almost as fast as jiggs' aerials. This is why it's broken in this matchup. Jiggs has difficulty approaching in front of Zelda with her jab. Utilt trades, and Utilt kills Jiggs insanely early =(

If Zelda plays unbelievably defensive and shields and spotdodges like the mad ***** she is, jiggs will be going through hell.

But Zelda's no counter for your reasons stated, because jiggs can bait. You must realise though that the majority of Zelda's moves are on par or are stronger than Ike's. Uair, Fair, Bair, Dair, Utilt and USmash come to mind. She's also much faster than him. This doesn't bode well for jiggs' weight.

You seem to have some misconceptions about the strengths of Ike's moves.

 

[MrEh]

=( He fights for his friends and I'm not one of them =(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jkuXO-e2cI#t=1m08s

Sorry, I had to post it.

 

[Kataefi]

On par or stronger. On par or stronger. =p

Please please please read what I write. Fair and Bair are stronger than his on sweetspot. As is her Dair on sweetspot, as is her uair on catch. Her Utilt is stronger than his. Her USmash could be when fresh, but it's normally stale.

I have no misconceptions at all about Ike, except that his FSmash is mad strong =(

EDIT:: lmao xD lonely lonely Ike!

 

[illinialex24]

On par or stronger. On par or stronger. =p

Please please please read what I write. Fair and Bair are stronger than his on sweetspot. As is her Dair on sweetspot, as is her uair on catch. Her Utilt is stronger than his. Her USmash could be when fresh, but it's normally stale.

I have no misconceptions at all about Ike, except that his FSmash is mad strong =(

EDIT:: lmao xD lonely lonely Ike!

Ok, how about we do it this way. Zelda has strong aerials, Ike has a stronger ground game. Happy? Ike's tilts, jabs, and smashes are stronger than Zelda, but her sweetspotted aerials are insane.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Ok, how about we do it this way. Zelda has strong aerials, Ike has a stronger ground game. Happy? Ike's tilts, jabs, and smashes are stronger than Zelda, but her sweetspotted aerials are insane.

Now, how about we compare usefulness then? If that's the case, Ike's aerials all beat Zelda's. Without a doubt. His ground game, on the whole, equals hers in terms of usefulness. The only ways in which Zelda beats out Ike are Din's Fire and not having an easily gimped recovery.

 

[MrEh]

Now, how about we compare usefulness then?

As much as I would love to do that, that's for another day, and another thread.

 

[-Mars-]

Now, how about we compare usefulness then? If that's the case, Ike's aerials all beat Zelda's. Without a doubt. His ground game, on the whole, equals hers in terms of usefulness. The only ways in which Zelda beats out Ike are Din's Fire and not having an easily gimped recovery.

Bair OoS>anything Ike has in his arsenal.

His jab is better than anything Zelda has but thats it. She has fsmash,usmash, dsmash, dtilt, jab, and Naryus. None of Ikes smash attacks are even really viable up close.

Zelda has a far better moveset than Ike, that's not even debatable.


@ Jigglypuff mains- Can you guys rest Zelda out of her usmash? If so that might make the matchup take a drastic turn.

 

[Kataefi]

Well, I kinda tested that out as well - but I don't know if I was doing it wrong. I made Zelda usmash on jiggs and tried to get jiggs to rest in between the hits. Then I did usmash and rest at the same time and rest fell through zelda but jiggs was asleep as Zelda finished. Then I tried SDIing down and getting a rest, it could be possible but I couldn't do it. Her USmash is just really hard SDIing out of. I could SDI up out of it though because jiggs is quite floaty, though this still wasn't consistent.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't think jiggs can rest out of Zelda's usmash. if she rests too early, she's only in zelda's disjointed, sparkly ribbon of hitbox which she'll pass through with invincibility, but won't hit zelda with, and if she DIs out she's either going to be above zelda, or beside zelda. I think it's impossible to DI out on top of Zelda.

And marsulas is right. Zelda's ground game is far and away better than ike's. he might have generally more useful aerials, but his ground game is not even close. Other than jab and Ftilt, every attack in zelda's ground arsenal is better than ike's. her dtilt is much more useful. her smashe's aren't even a competition in how much more useful they are. Nayru's is more useful than most of the moves in ike's entire repetoir. and her Utilt is more powerful. (though more punishable as well.)

 

[MrEh]

Veril said it's possible...but unlikely. Lighting apparently does bizarre things to hitstun, and that causes it to be insanely difficult to Rest though.

So yeah, probably not. But he might find a way. Who knows?

 

[Tarmogoyf]

@ Jigglypuff mains- Can you guys rest Zelda out of her usmash? If so that might make the matchup take a drastic turn.

I couldn't manage to. If it's possible, it's so hard as to be impractical.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I couldn't manage to. If it's possible, it's so hard as to be impractical.

agreed. I can't do it and no-one else has been having success either. from the looks of it, youve got overwhelming odds that it's not going to work, so, chances are, instead of resting zelda, you'll end up asleep and prone right next to her. gives zelda a free Utilt, dtilt ->utilt or lightning kick on you. or even a transform to sheik if she'd like to refresh her moveset, not the best option maybe, but still viable.

all in all, it's an awful tactic for jiggly to employ.

 

[Kitamerby]

On par or stronger. On par or stronger. =p

Please please please read what I write. Fair and Bair are stronger than his on sweetspot. As is her Dair on sweetspot, as is her uair on catch. Her Utilt is stronger than his. Her USmash could be when fresh, but it's normally stale.

Actually, I checked on a Mario set to "control" from the center of FD, and out of all the moves, Zelda's Fair, Bair, and Uair were the only ones that were actually stronger than Ike's counterpart. Their Dairs on sweetspot are virtually indistinguishable on spiking power, with Ike's only being 2% behind when it comes to spiking in the water for a KO. Ike's Uair was about 10% behind Zelda's Uair or so, and Zelda's Fair and Bair are far more powerful than Ike's counterparts, but Ike's jab, Neutral Special, Fsmash, Dair (nonsweetspot), Uair, Ftilt, Dsmash (reversed for Ike), Nair, Dtilt (both versions) and Side Special are also far more powerful than Zelda's versions. Ike's Utilt and Usmash are also stronger than Zelda's, if only by 5-10% or so.

Zelda only has 3.5 moves that are stronger than Ike's in terms of KO power, and one really shouldn't matter, since there's only a 2% difference, so realistically, only 3 moves will be killing lower than Ike's counterparts can.

Explain to me how all of Zelda's moves are on par or stronger than Ike's versions now.

A funny thing though is that of the 3 moves Zelda has over Ike, Ike really doesn't use any of those 3 for KOing purposes mainly. Uair catches people out of airdodges and is a fine punisher, Fair is a spacing tool, Bair is simply a versatile, quick attack.

 

[Kataefi]

Find me Ike's realistic kill moves. (I very much doubt he'll be killing with his jab)

I'll list you Zelda's kill moves (Fair, Bair, Uair, Dair, Utilt, USmash, Dsmash and Fsmash and Ftilt if I'm desperate).

Compare, and voila!

-- Take this to PMs if it continues

 

[RhedKing]

Ike's 3 hit combo hit's in like the first three frames, I swear it has no execution time. That and his Bair along with standard B and Dair for edge games makes Ike quite good at killing things. But consult the Ike guys if you really want an answer.

Btw I played a Zelda today as Jiggs. She was an Fsmash and Ftilt(and really all forward moves) spammer. Given she wasn't very good, but the three occasions that it came up I found that short hopping a Dropping pound cancels the Ftilt up. We'd both stall but by then I had air dodged with my momentum and had got in for a grab since her follow up jab went into my air dodge then shield.

It seems like a fairly reliable way to get her with at least a grab. Now trust me I know that Zelda could have thrown out something else, but it gave me time to put my shield up none-the-less.

 

[Veril]

The last word on rest

Veril said it's possible...but unlikely. Lighting apparently does bizarre things to hitstun, and that causes it to be insanely difficult to Rest though.

So yeah, probably not. But he might find a way. Who knows?

D*** you lightning. Alright. This is my final word on Zelda and rest. I'm not going to list what in theory is possible, only what in practice is. K.

jab: no viable option

tilts: no viable option except a spacing dependent perfect rest on the up-tilt

F-smash: SDI back and rest, spacing dependent, risky, difficult and not really an interrupt per se.
Up-smash: no viable option. Maybe in a perfect control video
D-smash: no viable option.

Dash attack: perfect rest (spacing dependent). I may find other methods for this.

Neutral-b: no viable option
Side-b: punish if you are close enough
Up-b: don't bother trying
Down-b: rollout! or a charged smash, not rest.

F-air, b-air, up-air, d-air: no viable option
n-air: interrupt works ONLY if she lands mid attack, so basically useless.


Summary: rest interrupts have a negligible effect on Zelda. She doesn't really chain together moves, and the lightning property of her multihit moves makes it impossible to interrupt them.


Also, Zelda is a b** a** who pirouettes people to death. I feel the matchup is 60 : 40 Zelda if not worse.

 

[Kataefi]

Zelda is a b** a** who pirouettes people to death.

Sounds about right!

 

[Veril]

Sounds about right!

I like your sig. Triforce of Christmas FTW!

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Stop talking about Ike! We all know he has no friends. Stop it! It is extremly off topic.

 

[Kataefi]

Thanks veril! I was in the festive mood!

 

[RhedKing]

It just goes to show that all arguments can be resolved with Christmas cheer, er.. I mean nondescript holiday cheer.
Yay for political correctness!

But unfortunately it also seems hard for jiggly puff to get any kills on zelda on reasonable damage.

I think I have to agree with Veril, 60:40, though I'll try to find something, it doesn't look good.

 

[Kataefi]

We've got 65:35 for now over at the zelda boards (at worst). This game is only a few years old, we'll see how it fares across time.

In summary, that tiny extra 5% just comes from Zelda's ability to kill kill kill, like there's no tomorrow. She's heavier, stronger in knockback, puts up a defence like crazy and jiggs struggles to kill her unless she's off stage. Jiggs can only bait, and is forced to approach. Even pound is risky, especially with USmash able to override it on startup at times, or a powershield to whatever. Jab also stops all her approaches and trades with falling pound, it's also lagless so she can jab > powershield pound in time to punish OoS. Rest doesn't work well against Zelda because of lightning hitstun, so she can abuse her smashes safely and use lightning kicks safely, which are safer than rest in general.

If jiggs is reliant on one move to get through Zelda's defence then it will get trickier and trickier the more Zelda discovers how to dodge and punish. Her waveland > grab can be countered by jab > zero cooldown nayru's, or hyphen usmash to punish Jiggs if she shields, so it's less effective than on other characters whom jiggs can get in a sneak approach.

Simply put, we just feel that Zelda has a tiny tiny tiny bit more than just an advantage (consider it something like 63:37), and we know she's not a counter because Jiggs can bait. We're not saying jiggs is a bad character, and I'm starting to play as jiggs more and more and learning that she is a good character! But it's just that Zelda has more than enough tools to keep Jiggs always at bay! A good Zelda shouldn't be easily baited and will be reactive and adaptive enough to give jiggs trouble.

Never take her to Luigi's Mansion. The matchup becomes horrible, as it does with the majority of characters you take her there. She might as well own the place!

I hope these reasons are okay!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I say 65:35 seems completely fair. without posting a wall of text:

Zelda >>> Jiggly at wracking up damage on the other
Zelda >>> Jiggly at killing the other

it's not that Zelda's gampelay inherently counters jiggly's, though it does in the sense that zelda counters about every approach that jiggly has. Maybe jiggly's just used to haveing such bad matchups that zelda doesn't seem so terrible for her, and maybe it's that jiggly is so uncommonly played that a lot of zeldas won't have experience against her and that zelda is underplayed enough that you are underestimating her, but she seriously tears up jigglypuff worse than she does most other characters. Jiggly isn't a free win for zelda, but it's a dang cheap one. if you don't CP you are deliberately putting yourself at a major disadvantage that I would not want to espose myself to.

the fact that even at the WORST stages you can take zelda to it's more likely for zelda to come out the victor than yourself even if she doesn't ban a smart stage, you should know it's gotta be a baaaad matchup for you. and it is.