Jigglypuff >> Kirby?

[ryuu seika]

I keep seeing things about Jigglypuff being great and yet nobody denies that Kirby, who has very similar A attacks and much better specials, is the second worst character in the game.
Clearly to somebody not experianced in the nuances of competetive Melee gaming this could be quite confusing so can somebody give me a simple explanation as to why none of Jigglypuffs sudden awesomeness has carried over to Kirby.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

fun fact kirby has no air speed so he can't air dance he just falls a little to the side kirby is trash he only has 5 moves worth useing. puff has like 6 and i'm going by H-box matches. rest, up-throw, up-tilt, upair, bair, pound.

also kirby isn't to hard to combo and is twice as easy to camp to death he CAN'T win a few amount of the time no matter what he does.

also pichu>kirby I know what's up.

 

[Merkuri]

lol Pichu is at the very bottom ICG. Pichu will never > Kirby.

 

[distraction]

as icg said kirby is trash. and armada still wins with him.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I beat people with pichu he has much more going for him like an approach, projectile, recovery, fast enough to not get camped to death and etc. pichu camps better than kirby really he's a joke at what he's best at. Even after playing as kirby and pichu more i'm starting to think over all pichu has the better edge gaurd. I've been getting the gimps b-throw ***** even at 0 percent jolt and f-smash is all you need to follow up.

i'm also prefecting the jolt as pichu so I punish people for using the shine to reflet it.

 

[ryuu seika]

This hasn't explained anything though.
Wiggly's up tilt is the same as Kirby's and his Bair is practically the same as Kirby's Fair (and vice versa), his Ntilt (which I assume is what rest is) is outright worse than Kirby's as fars as I can tell but I can agree up air and pound are good.
2 good moves does not a character make though, does it?

EDIT: and if following up with the whole Pichu thing is what you want, how is Pich not an outright worse version of Pikachu?

 

[Geist]

Jiggs has
- bair
- air speed
- best recovery in the game
- a viable 1hko move
- bair
- better hitboxes
- amazing range and priority
- moves that combo into said 1hko
- bair

Kirby has
-

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

kirby has tilts, duck, and bair/dair and that's it.

kirby's up-tilt is techically better than puffs however what will he use to follow up with and compare it to puff. pichu can spam a single move far better than kirby kiirby's bair isn't the godlyness of pichu's nair. Nair is in truth an answer to EVERY single problem he most deal with. if you add in upair and jolts pichu feels Godly when used right not very someone with an F name.


kirby can't approach or counter most camping nor control the space like puff also kirby only has 3 jumps that count with no air speed.

 

[mastermoo420]

Uhhhh ryuu, it's Jiggly, not Wiggly. If Jiggs could evolve, God knows what Mango would do with her. Kirby's fair pales in comparison to Jigg's b-air. Look at some frame data. And what the heck is an N-tilt? LOL. That's like trying to n-air with your c-stick or something c'mon.

Also, I think tires don exit for reals. At least at the lower tiers. There's just so little data on them, and their personal metagame is so underdeveloped that it's hard to effectively rate them, no less compare them against each other.

And what ICG said about the u-tilt, too. No follow-ups to it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Kirby has a bad throw game and bad aerial mobility so he can't take advantage of his multiple jumps or good Bair in the same way that Puff can. He also doesn't have an aerial that sends "up".

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I believe in the tier list it's impossible for bowser/kirby/peach/gannon to EVER beat fox on KJ64 or even DL64 if played right they can never land a move.

I believe if it's possible to hit them and avoid moves then it's possible to win.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Jiggs has
- bair
- air speed
- best recovery in the game
- a viable 1hko move
- bair
- better hitboxes
- amazing range and priority
- moves that combo into said 1hko
- bair

Kirby has
- mediocre bair
- throws that are funny when they don't work
- ability to SHDL Falco's lazors
- taunt camping
- **** colors
- mediocre utilt

Fix'd. Kirby iz tope tirez.

 

[Geist]

I just realized I actually didn't finish my last post LOL

Kirby has dtilt and kirbycide I guess.
Falco Kirby jumps up a million tiers though

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

**** combos???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI3Qb5LcT9o

I do this in matches some times. Easier than you'd think.

 

[Pengie]

 

[felipe_9595]

Pichu cant camp, if you camp with pichu, you will selfdestroy you

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Ask bunbun pichu camps very well. also well spaced jolts are amazing. Also projectiles isn't the only way one can camp.

 

[ryuu seika]

Uhhhh ryuu, it's Jiggly, not Wiggly.

I like Wiggly better...

Kirby's fair pales in comparison to Jigg's b-air. Look at some frame data.

Looks like I'm still living in the past then because I know Kirby had that kick in the N64 version.

And what the heck is an N-tilt? LOL. That's like trying to n-air with your c-stick or something c'mon.

IIRC it's the (strangely illogical) name used for nowhere + A.

Also, I think tires don exit for reals. At least at the lower tiers. There's just so little data on them, and their personal metagame is so underdeveloped that it's hard to effectively rate them, no less compare them against each other.

And what ICG said about the u-tilt, too. No follow-ups to it.

Except the Ftilt Kick 'm while there down.

Kirby has a bad throw game

I wouldn't know, I don't like throws.

He also doesn't have an aerial that sends "up".

What?! I know I've been knocking people off the top with an A move!

I know that kick and I know Kirby doesn't have that strange nodding end lag.

 

[Anth0ny]

I think one can /thread about 70% of the threads on this board with this single .gif

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

up-tilt rest kirby doesn't compare.

 

[Pengie]

I know that kick and I know Kirby doesn't have that strange nodding end lag.

Yes that's why Kirby is as good as Puff. Forget that Puff has so much aerial mobility, has a back air (aka that kick) that's almost disjointed, that her back air is made even dumber because of her amazing aerial mobility because of hitbox dragging. It's all about that little nod at the end. You sir are a genius and are clearly a mastermind smasher. I will now worship the ground you walk on for showing me the error of my ways.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

pichu has a better air game than kirby and I can easily break it down and be right watch carefully.

1st off is the fact kirby has near no air speed pichu has better air speed but not puff like di or anything. so movement pichu wins clearly. yes I know kirby has more jumps which really fail if you can't avoid their attacks sure you jumped more and got more bairs in BUT if your hit at a decent percent like 50% your off the edge and WON't recover. You can't avoid their attacks they must run into your bairs you can't avoid and punish right and if you approach it doesn't work so basically you can't approach/avoid their attacks.

Air moves: nair is better than ANYMOVE kirby has hands down. edge gaurd, combos, sheild pressure, approach, COVERs great range, no lag, sheild/CC doesn't beat it, very fast,and with DDing/WDIng nair has more range tahn any of kirbys moves like how running SH knee covers more range than bowsers fair.

his air moves set up things like combos and pressure sheilds. kirby lacks this other than like dair tilt or sometimes bair bair or other rare cases. pichu dair is just as good of a kill move as most kirby's aur moves.

Approaching: pichu SHFFls nair like falcon with knee kirby like bowser SHFFLINg fair he may have greater range but less follow-ups and slower and much easier to punish. But techically kirby has better range when just falling.

also lets go to mid air comat you may think oh yeah kirby wins there again your wrong. pichu 2nd jump back to thunder is a very nice trap that many people run right into, same for jolts, and up-B around them to get below and combo them to death. pichu can easily create walls and get around them and fair to beat knees and outrange EVERYONEs but roy/marths dair with pichu's upair kirby can't out range anyones dair with his upair. kirby has to hope they don't out range him, be faster in air, or have a projectile or a way around him which means kirby ***** kirby's air game when above.


kirby would be better without his jumps in all truth. If he has just 2 simple jjumps like maybe mario high each then he won't need 2 jumps to reach every platform and you couldn't camp him nearly as easy.

 

[KirbyKaze]

What?! I know I've been knocking people off the top with an A move!

If you mean "killing" then sure I guess.

But Kirby can't combo very well. Particularly in the air. Consequently, he deals damage mostly with single hits. When your moves only do 9-14% because you can't combo, characters like Fox, who do 22-60% per move because of the combo setups their attacks create, find it pretty easy to outpace you in damage and win.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

KK knows what's up like fat people know there's a hamburger in the fridge. I'm geussing he'll sig this or something.

but yeah I think he'll argee that kirby can't by any means do the puff. dr.mario,mario, marth,ness,DK do it way better than kirby.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

kirby is in reality way better then puff, the metagame just hasnt evolved far enough for us to discover it yet.

 

[Cosmo!]

the reason reason kirby is bad and jiggs is good:

Jigglypuff can move extremely quickly horizontally in the air. Kirby barely moves at all horizontally in the air.

This lets Jiggs control the entire match while Kirby makes futile attempts to do things like shield WD -> ftilt

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

funny fact the last time kirby's metagame has advanced was in like 2002 when they figured out WDing. And they basically tryed to play noob SF and WD d-tilt in a corner.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I lost at this troll account.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Me> every single last troll on smashboards.

I bet you guys don't even know what messes with me really bad now you look for weakens where there are none to be seen.

 

[ryuu seika]

So basically, this all comes down to what I thought it was ages back - Jigglypuff is almost identical to SSB64 Kirby but with different specials.

I would like to point out though that interupting an attack by swallowing the opponent generally sets Kirby up to punish just about any landing after digestion. It's not a combo in the strictest sense but it works like one.

I'm done arguing the Kirby > Mr.Puff point though. Puff doesn't really compare to what Kirby once was but nor does Kirby these days and he's lost an awful lot more.

 

[dch111]

Kirby got seriously nerfed from his N64 days.

Also,

Wiggly's up tilt is the same as Kirby's and his Bair is practically the same as Kirby's Fair (and vice versa), his Ntilt (which I assume is what rest is)

Thread ended here.

Epilogue:

I wouldn't know, I don't like throws.

I don't think you'll like competitive melee very much...

 

[ryuu seika]

I don't think you'll like competitive melee very much...

As long as throws, blocking and "wavedashing" are optional I'll be fine.

 

[TLMSheikant]

As long as throws, blocking and "wavedashing" are optional I'll be fine.

They arent optional if you wanna win...sorry :S.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

kirby sucks up fox and gets lasers and does 10% but get hit by FF nair from fox and does 12% to i'm geussing jab up-smash= like 30% and 3 hits may cost kirby his new lasers same for very falco.

also if you miss the suck it's the same as missing anything else but your punsihed harder and the suck is slow and you have to be in a neutral place where they can/should be camping your nuts off and you are forced to approach and give up the suck because if you SH it your range is reduced by a 1/3 and roy can d-tilt you easily.

Also the trade off isn't very good you miss and take 30% of if you land it you can take a fair amount of damage from FFers which is most of the metagame. falcon dair to knee for 10% on him to get a falcon punch and you take 26% and lose control of the match.

 

[BEES]

Kirby is pretty bad. The best use for him is suicide-camping in teams.

 

[mastermoo420]

They arent optional if you wanna win...sorry :S.

Psh. Go Marth and just f-smash. Go Sheik and just f-tilt. Go Fox and just shine. HAHHAHAHA Fox can just n-air, too. Just ask Cactuar.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

lololol @ this thread...
all you really have to do to notice the difference is PLAY WITH PUFF...
she is 1434245234534 times better than kirby...
and i agree with ICG... PICHU R@PES KIRBY... kirby sucks ... worst character in da game... hes the only character that i have trouble fighting a lvl 9 cpu with

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

Is it me or do you not know what rest does

kirby can't even compare.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Really fighting level 9s with kirby is the easiest thing ever jump up 5 times and stone and repeat till they are dead.

Also pichu has better camping than kirby if anyone is wordering.

 

[ryuu seika]

Wait a minute, is rest that move that practically kills you every time you forget what character you are nd try to rock form? If so, it's really rather annoying but doesn't seem to do anything positive at all.