Janon social thread : Lair of the Floating Back Slapping Missile Reflecting King of Evil

[Sanity's_Theif]

The range would certainly be appreciated, but Ganondorf already has quite a bit of range as it is. Another thing to consider though is that he would be a larger target. Not sure what all of the ramifications of that would be, but it is certainly something to consider.

It's just weird seeing Link compared to his height in Project M, whereas in Twilight Princess Ganondorf was huuuuuuge, like I think Link's head reached Ganondorf's stomach, I think it would be interesting to try out, and Bowser is a huge target but that hasn't stopped him from being good, and Ganondorf's attacks reach far out from his body as it is, not sure if him being bigger would be that bad

Also, saw the stream, why did they put Ganondorf's Brawl D-air and F-air back in? Those animations look so un-beastly

Also looks like F-air has less range, if so.... why?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I don't mind the f-air animation, especially with the darkness added. With that much wind-up, how could it be unbeastly? I totally agree on the d-air animation though, it doesn't convey nearly as much power, though it does look faster.

I'm not sure about the range on the f-air though, we won't really be sure of that until 3.0 is released.

Making Ganondorf bigger though is an interesting idea, but if you make Ganondorf alone bigger, it could mess with the basic scale of all characters. If he was taller than Bowser, than maybe Bowser looks small, and then he needs to be bigger. Then someone else needs to be bigger and etc. Not sure if that's actually how that series of events would pan out, but it, again, is something to consider.

 

[batistabus]

For me, it's opposite. I think Dorf's fair in Melee is the most BEASTLY looking move, even without effects. It just lacks impact in Brawl. On the other hand, I think the Brawl dair looks rock-solid (in the literal sense), and it differentiates it from how Falcon's looks.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

For me, it's opposite. I think Dorf's fair in Melee is the most BEASTLY looking move, even without effects. It just lacks impact in Brawl. On the other hand, I think the Brawl dair looks rock-solid (in the literal sense), and it differentiates it from how Falcon's looks.

I want to believe that there is a way to differentiate from Falcon without resorting to the Brawl Dair animation, which is gross. We'll see though, I should at least try to not judge it too harshly until I've gotten my hands on it.

 

[teluoborg]

Well the turbo Ganon video used the 2.6 animations and side B so idk what to think anymore, wait and see I guess.

Also about increasing Ganon's size it's a bad idea, it works for Bowser because he has armor frames everywhere.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Well the turbo Ganon video used the 2.6 animations and side B so idk what to think anymore, wait and see I guess.

Also about increasing Ganon's size it's a bad idea, it works for Bowser because he has armor frames everywhere.

I think the Old Manondorf/Dark Link team up used the 3.0 dair, but I'm not positive. Aside from reveals, I'm not sure how good Turbo Tuesdays are for scoping out 3.0 stuff. I mean, who knows when they recorded it, or when the moves were changed?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Well, now I don't know what to believe. Hylian's dev stream from the other day shows no animation changes and the current Flame Choke trajectory...

 

[| Kailex |]

I noticed that too, maybe they got changed back or his build is different, an older version

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I'd pretty much be satisfied if they only did three things to Ganon:

Let me choose the direction of Wiz Kick in the air, so when I'm backwards off the stage I don't just die.
Have Flame Choke snap to ledges instead of having Ganon's face rub against the wall.
New neutral-B.

Everything else kind of feels unnecessary. The fair animation is perfect as is, and I don't really see any beneficial effects for using the Brawl animation. The (possibly) new dair animation looks like it will make the move faster, but it's such a lame animation that it would bother me (at least for a while).

I'm a little torn about the (possibly) new Flame Choke trajectory though. On the one hand, it will be easier to combo out of, but it kind of loses that whole tech chase fun that we have now. Reading your opponent and punishing properly is pretty much Ganon's whole thing, so it'd be a shame if ground Flame Choke lost that. I'd probably have to play with the move for a while before deciding which is best, which I'm sure the PMBR has done.

I'll trust in their decision for now, except for any fair animation change. That just seems like a nonsensical change given how perfect the move is now.

 

[lukifer]

Yeah, allowing Wiz Kick to be B-reversible would be great. I'm not sure why it isn't already. It would definitely help against moves like DDD's down smash which sends you off the stage and in a different direction than what you were facing.

I would argue that the new grounded Flame Choke is worse than what we have now. Since I haven't actually played the new demo yet I can't say any of this for sure, but from what I've seen in livestreams this appears to be the case.

1. The hit stun looks really short. You may be able to get an up-air off on most opponents, but it looks the possibility of a trade is very high, especially against characters with good priority in their aerials.
2. This change limits the kind of follow-ups that Ganon can make after a grounded Flame Choke. Currently you can follow-up with pretty much anything if you make a good read or predict how your opponent will tech. With the new trajectory though, it looks like the only possible follow-ups are uair and nair, and maybe DACUS if the knockback is just right.
3. This change will actually really hurt Ganon against floaties, unless the knockback on the new version is fixed. Consider what will happen when you FC a Jigglypuff at 100%. What if she goes flying halfway across the stage? Obviously in this case there is no guaranteed follow-up, whereas with the current FC there is at least a chance.

Overall, I think that Ganon needs a move like the current Flame Choke because so many of his moves already have such high knockback. His ability to combo degrades incredibly quickly. Having a move like the current FC at least gives him the possibility of short combo strings regardless of the opponent's percent. Granted, it looks like aerial FC is unchanged, but sometimes it's easier to land the grounded one.

 

[| Kailex |]

If possible, include both. Holding "a" would trigger the new one, because I think thisll help against certain characters at certain situations.

 

[Yanoss1313]

Yeah, allowing Wiz Kick to be B-reversible would be great. I'm not sure why it isn't already. It would definitely help against moves like DDD's down smash which sends you off the stage and in a different direction than what you were facing.

I would argue that the new grounded Flame Choke is worse than what we have now. Since I haven't actually played the new demo yet I can't say any of this for sure, but from what I've seen in livestreams this appears to be the case.

1. The hit stun looks really short. You may be able to get an up-air off on most opponents, but it looks the possibility of a trade is very high, especially against characters with good priority in their aerials.
2. This change limits the kind of follow-ups that Ganon can make after a grounded Flame Choke. Currently you can follow-up with pretty much anything if you make a good read or predict how your opponent will tech. With the new trajectory though, it looks like the only possible follow-ups are uair and nair, and maybe DACUS if the knockback is just right.
3. This change will actually really hurt Ganon against floaties, unless the knockback on the new version is fixed. Consider what will happen when you FC a Jigglypuff at 100%. What if she goes flying halfway across the stage? Obviously in this case there is no guaranteed follow-up, whereas with the current FC there is at least a chance.

Overall, I think that Ganon needs a move like the current Flame Choke because so many of his moves already have such high knockback. His ability to combo degrades incredibly quickly. Having a move like the current FC at least gives him the possibility of short combo strings regardless of the opponent's percent. Granted, it looks like aerial FC is unchanged, but sometimes it's easier to land the grounded one.

While i agree that the "new" grounded flame choke may be worse in some situation, you're example with floaties being the best one i can think of.
Though (for me atleast) i feel that in almost every situation that i could go for a grounded choke, i could also go for the aerial choke straight from the start of a jump (yeah, i know it's like 4 frames slower). Which is far more useful against floaties since it combo's directly into jab in most cases (and is many cases, failed tech rolls after some jab conditioning).
I dunno, I like the idea of the option between popping them in the air or bouncing them for a tech chase over the current option of, tech chase vs different tech chase (on most of the cast)

I dunno, just my two cents.

 

[Fortress]

"Do you wanna hear how I got these eyebrows?"

[collapse=Get the shards of power, and it's all part of the plan...]

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Just stumbled upon that. Jokerdorf is freaky.

 

[Yanoss1313]

hmm... silcence

On a side note,
how cool would it be if there where a Demise costume for Ganondorf >.> Ike mod anyone?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

pfft...

[collapse=Pajamadorf all day]

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[Yanoss1313]

lol, i was just trying to get the conversation going again

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

lol, i was just trying to get the conversation going again

...and you've succeeded.

On the subject of skins though, I'm quite fond of Mulletdorf at this point. Hopefully it can be his Alt. Costume.

[collapse=Great King of Evil]

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http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=32235

It's a shame there's no really good Pajamadorf though...

 

[| Kailex |]

Making an entirely new costume would be nice. Oh and I just thought of this, iirc someone from the pmbr said that maybe not all characters are getting alts, if thats the case with ganondorf then they should just add in more colors... I WANT MY PURPLE DORF BACK

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Well, if they go for Meleedorf, they'll probably bring Purpledorf back. We could even get Purplemulletdorf!

Please note: Adding "dorf" to the end of words is the most efficient form of communicating our ideas. Please use it in the future. Thank you.

 

[CORY]

i just want a helix king lord genome skin for dorf. is that too much to ask? (probably yes)

 

[RabidJackal]

What do you guys think of Ganon's reverse aerial rush? I've started to use it a lot more with his up--air. I think it can really set up some great edgeguards because of the way up-air spikes.

 

[Yanoss1313]

What do you guys think of Ganon's reverse aerial rush? I've started to use it a lot more with his up--air. I think it can really set up some great edgeguards because of the way up-air spikes.

Yeah, i'm totally in love with it, Reverse Uair is like my goto option for gimps... and often mix Bairs into my combo's with it... I probably use rar too much to be honest, almost to the detriment of my melee play, i often forget i can't

 

[Yanoss1313]

...and you've succeeded.

On the subject of skins though, I'm quite fond of Mulletdorf at this point. Hopefully it can be his Alt. Costume.

[collapse=Great King of Evil]

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http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=32235

It's a shame there's no really good Pajamadorf though...

I'd love to see ocarina dorf make a return as an alt, it's only fair! link gets one >.<
it'd probably be asking way too much, but wouldn't it be cool if ocarina dorf had all his melee animations and twilight dorf had the current ones (Ftilt, Dtilt, etc)

i can dream though!!!

 

[teluoborg]

Sorry to crush your dreams but as far as I've seen, alt costumes share their animations with the original :/

Tho I'd like to see oot Ganon make a comeback too, I find the brawl animations glorious when they are performed at PM speed.

Ftilt being my favorite, with a name for each angle.

 

[Yanoss1313]

Sorry to crush your dreams but as far as I've seen, alt costumes share their animations with the original :/

Tho I'd like to see oot Ganon make a comeback too, I find the brawl animations glorious when they are performed at PM speed.

Ftilt being my favorite, with a name for each angle.

lol, yeah, i knew going in it'd be an unreasonable ask

also... is anyone else hyped for Roy?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

also... is anyone else hyped for Roy?

I'm crazy hyped, Roy's our boy after all. That said, Ganondorf's the manondorf.

Can't wait for 3.0.

 

[Yanoss1313]

I'm crazy hyped, Roy's our boy after all. That said, Ganondorf's the manondorf.

Can't wait for 3.0.

i can just picture ocarina dorf with oldmanondorf colours =D

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

OH MAN...

I just imagined the snow-white mullet on oldmanonmulletdorf.

It's gorgeous.

 

[Urielhelix]

I can taste the excitement for the next release. It could just be the food im eating. even so its delicious.

 

[Yanoss1313]

I can taste the excitement for the next release. It could just be the food im eating. even so its delicious.

lol, yeah, i want a date already!

Also i just had an idea for ganon's kit,

I was thinking it would be cool to be able to jump cancel the grounded version of Ganon's UpB (kinda like Bowser and Charizard can with their downBs)
it would open it up as a potential out of shield option since you won't necessarily be giving away a free stock for missing.
That, and i think it would make for some interesting movement options, could make for some surprising platform followups.

iunno, lemme know what you guy's think.

 

[| Kailex |]

Someone will say no, this is pm not brawl-
But i liked the idea

Edit: oh and if it is going to be cancelable then how about making grounded up-b chargable like charizard's, he's going to fly way up

 

[teluoborg]

make an up B jump cancelable ? It seems obnoxious since you'd have to jump cancel up B cancel jump to use it oos...

 

[Yanoss1313]

make an up B jump cancelable ? It seems obnoxious since you'd have to jump cancel up B cancel jump to use it oos...

ah man, yeah i think i was like way tired when i posted that, it hadn't occurred to me that the oos version would be aerial... hmm. i wonder if it'd be grounded with the right timing though? iunno. it probably doesn't work.
In which case, there'd have to be some logic added to check if the player was grounded in the last, iunno 10 frames or what ever, and would be cancelable if it returned true... hmm... this seem's to be becoming more and more of a skrew around.... ok ok.... forget i brought it up, lol cancelable oos upB is a bad idea >.<

Edit: i kinda convinced myself mid post and didn't stop typing, lol

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah no problem, even thought that would be strong, I'd rather the PMBR focuses on giving Ganon tools to deal with his weaknesses rather than something very situational and complicated to create.

Because whan I think about it, the only time I send my opponents upwards with Ganon is when I use Usmash, and when I do they die. Since everything else sends them sidewards a giant jump wouldn't be very useful.

 

[Urielhelix]

I see what you mean. I am just know starting to get the hang of dashdance and punish them for doing mistakes. is that the main way to fight with Ganon or am i still missing something?

 

[Kally Wally]

ah man, yeah i think i was like way tired when i posted that, it hadn't occurred to me that the oos version would be aerial... hmm. i wonder if it'd be grounded with the right timing though? iunno. it probably doesn't work.
In which case, there'd have to be some logic added to check if the player was grounded in the last, iunno 10 frames or what ever, and would be cancelable if it returned true... hmm... this seem's to be becoming more and more of a skrew around.... ok ok.... forget i brought it up, lol cancelable oos upB is a bad idea >.<

Edit: i kinda convinced myself mid post and didn't stop typing, lol

Grounded upB attacks out of jumpstart frames work just fine, so there wouldn't need to be any special exceptions. If you screw up the input, that's your own stupid fault.

Not saying it's necessarily an idea I like, mind you, but it would function.

 

[0RLY]

Guys, it's super gahlike when you like dd sh bair approach someone, but intentionally space it so that it just barely touches them. Watch them put up their shield, ideally not hitting it, then aerial side-b. Equally gahlike when you bair over the head of someone short like Pikachu, watch them put up their shield, waveland behind them, then start dribbling their face like you're at the space jam.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

im mad as hell all the pm tier lists have ganondorf at the bottom of the barrel. makes me want to d-air a fool

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

We'll show them.

On December 9th, the reign of Ganondorf shall begin.

And yes, fools will be daired.

 

[teluoborg]

So let's start a new discussion : what are your favorite Ganon combo(s) ?
I've found out one on medium/fast fallers that looks and feels pretty awesome : air wizkick shockwave to ground wizkick, also known as the HUAA to HUAA.