Ja Ja Ja Ja Ja Jab

[soap]

so i just read Taj's mewtwo jab thread how it is almost useless and recalled a melee discussion thread where people were saying that sheik has the best+most useful one, so i wanted to discuss some stuff.

I personally have never used too much jab cuz i am paranoid of CCers and playing europhoria's marth just reaffirmed my fears as he CC grabbed any type of reactionary jab that i did. i didnt even realize i jabbed that much to begin with.

So i wanted to discuss the best uses for jab, and dont say generic stuff like jab>grab, i want to know like what situations can u actually safely jab grab as well as other uses. like i just randomly noticed last week that i could jab pikachu out of half his aerial approaches, im thinkin there are many situations where a jab could easily replace a much laggier tilt that ive been accustomed to doing.

also one jab cancel or do two? i think someone showed frame data that showed for jab spam two is technically quicker. this is situational too i think

i know jabs are ridiculously versatile in terms of what they can link into and whatnot, but i wanted to discuss more of situations where u actually jab and its corresponding followup.

for example ill go first

1.i like the quick two on fastfallers at certain percentages to raise them slightly off the ground after dthrow before they hit the ground cuz i know they cant CC then cancel into dtilt and dsmash.

2. ive also become a fan of jab then dashdance away. note: if u plan on dashing back its better not to jab cancel down as u have to recover from the crouch to dash back it seems

feel free to discuss your jab "theory" or just list your useful applications, either is cool. Much of the info should apply universally to characters with good jabs so that is good too.

 

[Europhoria]

Jab me more sweetie

 

[soap]

Jab me more sweetie

when i figure out how to do it safely i will

your raven avatar is gloomy depression when contrasted with the beacon of light that is my yachiru who would kick ravens azz btw

 

[DtJ Jungle]

cool post soap

 

[KevinM]

If you get a safe jab on marth it's more fun to run through them and turn around grab. It's sexy.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Jab resets and sometimes combos when I'm trying to get someone to use their double jump.

Jab cancels are pretty okay for trying to get someone to use their double jump if they're at really high percent and airborne.

Against spanimals I Jab more because they don't have the super amazing happy grab like Marth so there's less of a chance of being punished if you space. After D-throw if they (assume I'm referring to Fox) don't DI at like 50 I think you can Jab them before they land and then grab them again or something, at like 80 or something you can do Jab F-tilt or Jab D-smash or Jab D-tilt, etc. So yeah if they botch DI or don't DI for "mindgame" purposes you can punish it.

After about 115 on Fox I Jab a lot because it knocks him over almost guaranteed and then I can just D-smash them (usually miss the tech) or tech chase with D-smash and kill them (if they're used to teching it like Unknown522 is V____V) it's pretty useful and gay if they live that long.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

yah jab --> grab is pretty solid

 

[elvenarrow3000]

When in doubt, I jab. It's fairly safe as things go... the rapid jabs can't be shieldgrabbed... and it sets up nicely for stuff. I generally only jab once... never really looked into jab canceling, it really depends on the character's frames and where the windows to go into the next phases of jabbing are.

I actually have a terrible habit of jabbing people that crouch cancel so I can get that really cool thing where I rapid jab while they're crouch canceling and it looks like they're taking a lot of damage when they're really not and then I get dsmashed.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

thats no good

i hate crouch cancelling

 

[Europhoria]

All characters can **** you if you jab them. Most people just don't have the CC game to do it

Soap, Raven will go to town on you

 

[NeighborhoodP]

In the OP you said don't jab cancel down if you're going to dash dance away. How do you jab cancel without pressing down?

 

[soap]

Jab resets and sometimes combos when I'm trying to get someone to use their double jump.

Jab cancels are pretty okay for trying to get someone to use their double jump if they're at really high percent and airborne.

Against spanimals I Jab more because they don't have the super amazing happy grab like Marth so there's less of a chance of being punished if you space. After D-throw if they (assume I'm referring to Fox) don't DI at like 50 I think you can Jab them before they land and then grab them again or something, at like 80 or something you can do Jab F-tilt or Jab D-smash or Jab D-tilt, etc. So yeah if they botch DI or don't DI for "mindgame" purposes you can punish it.

After about 115 on Fox I Jab a lot because it knocks him over almost guaranteed and then I can just D-smash them (usually miss the tech) or tech chase with D-smash and kill them (if they're used to teching it like Unknown522 is V____V) it's pretty useful and gay if they live that long.

what kind of priority does jab have on fox? do u just throw it out there and hope it goes through the neutral or dash attack?

P i meant just dont jab cancel if u want to run away after the jab. jab cancel doesnt speed things up to much anyway

 

[Stos]

dont say generic stuff like jab>grab

psh jab grab all dai.
if you jab > GRAB LINK...thats gg.
yeah ive been playing sheiks lately and yeah
Jab Reset Grab
Jab Reset Tilts
is what i normally see when i play against shiek, though its not KKs sheik so yeah, he could apply more gayness when it comes to jabs =D

 

[KirbyKaze]

@stos if I Jab Link, usually I do so with the intention of eating a CC D-smash and then CCing said D-smash into a grab. Trading 16% for a stock seems fair.

@ soap I don't usually try to beat the Nair with Jab or anything like that; I usually just use it to pressure and approach into his DD more when he's at higher percent than when he's at low percent because knocking him over into D-smash is stupid. You probably could beat or trade his Nair with Jab because it's Sheik, but it seems too troublesome to me, and Jab is fast enough to sneak in.

 

[soap]

All characters can **** you if you jab them. Most people just don't have the CC game to do it

ive been experimenting with alotta jabbing and its pretty ****, but i think its cuz like u said they dont have the CC game down to deal with it.

only way to learn its true utility is to play good CCers.

this thread was 2 ambiguous this is one of those situational things u have to learn yourself

 

[Teczer0]

I use jabs to jab reset.

Aaaannnnnnnnndddddddddddd

After a dthrow sometimes I jab -> re-grab.

It seems to work vs falcon at some percent..... maybe its just me *shrugs*

In any case I'm paranoid of CCing too (m2k is gay) so I rarely use it too.

EDIT: My brother sometimes uses jabs to intercept recoveries, usually against airdodges. You can jab the character and afford to whiff cuz jabs have like 0 lag. Then if they get hit follow with fair or if they airdodge past you or something just retreat fair or something.

I also started playing around with using jabs against peach's recovery its not sooo bad although I think f-tilt is better for trying to catch peach through her fast fall umbrella or whatever you call it.

 

[ConnorTheKid]

isn't jab > fair good at death percentages?

 

[NeighborhoodP]

-pats connor on the back-

spam that **** son!

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Jabs have generally more than ten frames of lag, even Sheik's. As far as jab canceling goes, you don't technically have to crouch, just do anything that isn't jabbing again, but since more people are trying to do it in place, it's easiest to crouch.

Also, a lot of characters can nair you or whatever out of jab to whatevers. Play a level 9 sometime and try it. It sucks. They use your jabs as short hops.

 

[Teczer0]

Sheik's jab has 10 frames of lag O_O really?

That seems like an awful lot.... >_>

 

[soap]

Jabs have generally more than ten frames of lag, even Sheik's. As far as jab canceling goes, you don't technically have to crouch, just do anything that isn't jabbing again, but since more people are trying to do it in place, it's easiest to crouch.

Also, a lot of characters can nair you or whatever out of jab to whatevers. Play a level 9 sometime and try it. It sucks. They use your jabs as short hops.

i remember watching azen marth uair grab drephen after a jab in friendlies, it was bull****

 

[Europhoria]

i remember watching azen marth uair grab drephen after a jab in friendlies, it was bull****

LOL I do that **** too

 

[soap]

LOL I do that **** too

it seems like jab is either fail or fail against marth. they either CC it or just randomly uair u

 

[Europhoria]

Jabs fail vs. like... every character... unless you're ganon, or the other person is like Jiggs

 

[soap]

at least this thread taught me something

 

[Europhoria]

The lesson of the thread is the post I made just above yours xD

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Jabs fail vs. like... every character...

you're doing it wrong

 

[Stos]

i learned something too =D

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Here's the frame data.

Slice 1

Total: 17
Hit: 2-3
IASA: 16
Window for second slice: 3-25
Second slice begins: 10 (or later)

That means fifteen frames of lag (unless your opponent manages to ram himself into the second frame of the jab when he was out of range of the first, in which case it's thirteen.) You can jab cancel or whatever, and shave a frame off that lag.

Okay, fourteen frames of lag, meaning if you're repeating first jabs, that's fifteen frames between each. Keep that in mind, and we'll see how well jab cancels work.

Slice 2

Total: 18
Hit: 3-5
IASA: 17
Window for jabs: 2-18
Jabs start: 10

Okay, second jab hits frame three to five. If you look above, it starts on frame ten of the first jab, which means you've got nine frames between the two, which means you can probably be shieldgrabbed between the two. I'd have to calculate the hitlag and shieldstun to know for sure, but that's a lot of work and I am far too lazy right now. Lemme know if anyone cares.

Again, if you look at the hitbox, they don't really change, so you've got fourteen frames of lag after, which means if you jab cancel, you can hit the next jab fifteen frames later.

So if you jab cancel frame perfectly, you get an extra jab and no additional safety from shieldgrabs. Tada!

 

[soap]

Here's the frame data.

Slice 1

Total: 17
Hit: 2-3
IASA: 16
Window for second slice: 3-25
Second slice begins: 10 (or later)

That means fifteen frames of lag (unless your opponent manages to ram himself into the second frame of the jab when he was out of range of the first, in which case it's thirteen.) You can jab cancel or whatever, and shave a frame off that lag.

Okay, fourteen frames of lag, meaning if you're repeating first jabs, that's fifteen frames between each. Keep that in mind, and we'll see how well jab cancels work.

Slice 2

Total: 18
Hit: 3-5
IASA: 17
Window for jabs: 2-18
Jabs start: 10

Okay, second jab hits frame three to five. If you look above, it starts on frame ten of the first jab, which means you've got nine frames between the two, which means you can probably be shieldgrabbed between the two. I'd have to calculate the hitlag and shieldstun to know for sure, but that's a lot of work and I am far too lazy right now. Lemme know if anyone cares.

Again, if you look at the hitbox, they don't really change, so you've got fourteen frames of lag after, which means if you jab cancel, you can hit the next jab fifteen frames later.

So if you jab cancel frame perfectly, you get an extra jab and no additional safety from shieldgrabs. Tada!

this confused me, but thay just maybe cuz im trippin balls..

so jab cancelling is pointless, is that what it means? i already stopped jab cancels cuz it wont let u run back

 

[elvenarrow3000]

*sigh* I'll find the **** hitlag and shieldstun. You guys have no idea how much of an ordeal it is to find the formula. Have to go to Fox boards, then Ultimate Fox Thread, then Shield Pressure Research Project, then Scotu's Frame Data Q&A then Frames of Hitlag and Shieldstun.

Three frames of hitlag and six frames of shieldstun. Since that's a three frame advantage for you, and there's only nine frames between, meaning six frames of free space for your opponent. Since grabs come out in seven frames, that means you can't be grabbed between the two jabs.

Which means if your first jab hits a shield, you might as well jab again, because you'll have the same amount of lag afterward. Jab canceling will shave a frame off of your lag (whether you jab twice or not) if you do it FRAME PERFECTLY.

So um, yeah, tada, I guess.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

so uhhh... don't jab cancel?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Jab cancel if you can do it frame perfectly, otherwise you're just wasting your time. Also, double jab against shields.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

cliffnotes version too good

 

[soap]

Jab cancel if you can do it frame perfectly, otherwise you're just wasting your time. Also, double jab against shields.

what about double jab to mess up CC counter timing? good idea?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Uh, depends on what they're crouch canceling into, I guess. I probably would, just to get in that extra damage, since lag is the same afterwards anyway. Just make sure you don't mess up jab grabs by jabbing twice =P

 

[soap]

Just make sure you don't mess up jab grabs by jabbing twice =P

i used to mess that up alot actually until i started jab cancelling into JC grab

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Well I mean don't double jab if they don't crouch cancel or shield, because then you'll give them more of a chance to DI or whatever.

You can cancel your jab with a jump cancel grab... you don't have to crouch or anything before it. Just letting you know, if you didn't already.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If Marth is trying to CC my Jab can I double Jab into rapid Jab to beat it?

 

[soap]

i feel like the double jab lifts fastallers off the ground more and gives u more time to grab before they could potentially hit u back with something. is this good thinking?