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Ivysaur Moveset Discussion (Currently: Utilt)

Itburns

Smash Journeyman
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I honestly agree with you guys.. If squirtles jab is 1 frame... then i dont see why Ivys bullestseed isnt.

i guess all we need is viable proof

edit* thanks wiimii for checking up on that I wasnt sure if it beat out the mortar
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
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OP updated.


I would also add that Bullet Seed is a combo breaker xD
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
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Maybe a note of what's easy to break out of with Bullet Seed would be helpful. I find myself breaking out of these pretty easily:

  • Sheik's Ftilt lock
  • Marth's Downward last hit of Dancing Blade
  • Chain grabs if the opponent does not execute them perfectly (More so Falco)
  • Falco's jabs (With DI up)
  • Almost any jab combo if the opponent purposely delays it
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
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Maybe a note of what's easy to break out of with Bullet Seed would be helpful. I find myself breaking out of these pretty easily:

  • Sheik's Ftilt lock
  • Marth's Downward last hit of Dancing Blade
  • Chain grabs if the opponent does not execute them perfectly (More so Falco)
  • Falco's jabs (With DI up)
  • Almost any jab combo if the opponent purposely delays it

Well, it depends. Try it against characters like Samus, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Shiek, Cpt. Falcon, Falco, Fox, etc... the list is huge. To bad you can't do it to Ike, lol. At least he can't chain anything.

<3 Bullet Seed.
 

Bestiarius

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Bullet Seed is the Chuck Norris of Brawl Moves. If God were a character, Bullet Seed would be one of His moves.

But seriously.

Bullet Seed is imo one of the best and most useful moves in the game. It is excellent for in-close fighting. And punishing. And just plain ol' damage-rackin'. One use that I don't know if anybody has mentioned is a use in mid-air. If someone is attempting to punish you from below, I think its hitbox may go slightly beneath you. I very well could be wrong on that point. But, airdodging and then using Bullet Seed is a tactic I have to be surprisingly useful when someone is trying to juggle me.
 

Gindler

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Can you possibly use bullet seed to get someone who's hanging on the edge? I've often wondered this but never get caught out of RL range.

Oh and stupid question but intriguing to me...can BS be reflected? (like a fox using reflector from above obviously)
 

Bestiarius

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Can you possibly use bullet seed to get someone who's hanging on the edge? I've often wondered this but never get caught out of RL range.

Oh and stupid question but intriguing to me...can BS be reflected? (like a fox using reflector from above obviously)
I don't think so. I do, however, use it to edgeguard by being very close to the edge and then using it. If someone doesn't grab the ledge, or if they do and try to get up, they take a lot of damage, so long as I'm not so close to the ledge that they can't roll through. If you mean when you're falling off, odds are it won't work because the startup time and ending lag will probably kill you. You will fall more than the distance the seeds cover.
 

Steeler

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can't bullet seed hit an ike trying to jab cancel into a grab? or a link jab canceling into a dtilt or something? jabs are extremely important to both of those characters, probably moreso than any other character.
 

The Derrit

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Despite what the ike boards try to tell you. I swear they're the most pretentious board I've come in contact with so far.
 

typh

BRoomer
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bullet seed is lame now everyone can perfect DI out of the first hit

i remember when brawl first came out it was a guaranteed 50% every time :(
 

Skink

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Squirtle lol's at Ike in my experience. Also, are there any videos of how to properly use bullet seed? Like out of the air and stuff? I neglect that move a lot.
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
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Jab!


Post moar!


Also, don't post anything that is off topic, please? No matchup discussions..
 

The Derrit

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Jab!


Post moar!


Also, don't post anything that is off topic, please? No matchup discussions..
My bad.

Also, I haven't written a writeup for bullet seed and I feel like I should, even though your writeup is pretty perfect. So don't feel like you need to put up mine but for my own benefit I'm just gonna throw this out there.

AHEM.

Bullet seed is one of the few attacks that can in a single attack, win or lose a game. If you use it at the right time, you can rack up anywhere from 25-60 damage. 60 DAMAGE. That's a lot! However, at the same time if you use it at the wrong time, it could cost you your stock because it's so easily punishable, so be wary!

When b is pressed, Ivysaur pops up opponents nearby into a stream of seeds coming from its bulb. This move comes out incredibly quickly (a single frame) and can catch people during even minute cooldown lag. However, if the opponent sees it coming, SDI can cause the seed stream to miss completely, often leaving ivysaur open to attack in his large cooldown lag, so don't overuse it!

This can be landed a few ways, though it is more limited than most of ivysaur's moves. The first is to punish a lunging attack OOS. Wolf's fsmash is a prime example but there are many others. Also, it's excellent for use on an opponent above you, either on a platform or just stupidly approaching from directly above. Inversely, drop through platforms to hit people beneath you in midair! Good god this does blind man in a house full of spike pits type damage, not to mention the aerial popup isn't as great so its nearly impossible to SDI out of. Also, dash -> bullet seed is a bold way to land it; if you expect a shield or a dodge, just run right into the middle of them and put up bullet seed. SH bullet seed can also catch people by surprise in about the same way.

There are a few ways to land this from other moves as well, namely nair -> BS, bair -> BS, and low % dthrow -> SH'ed BS.

It can also be used as a defense against combos (combos?) but this is a last resort most times. It can get you out of some sticky situations such as poorly done chaingrabs and some jab combos, but I recommend to use it sparingly.

Bullet seed does mad damage and fluster the opponent, but it can lose you the game if used poorly. Be smart.

Purposes of bullet seed:

Damage racking like a mo-****a
Punishing OOS
Punishing in general
Breaking out of hit chains

Ways to land this attack:

Out of shield
After a laggy attack
Dash/nair/bair/dthrow + sh - > BS
While dropping through a platform onto an opponent
Countering a vertical attack
SH into opponent -> BS
 

choknater

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IMO dtilt is usually a better option than jab... but I never rule out any move sooo

Single jab is alright if you want to use something just as fast but less punishable than dtilt
Jab spam is pretty good if you want people out of your face
Usually if I want to punish someone but they're not at close enough range for bullet seed, i like to either dtilt, jab, or grab

Ivy's jab is a little weak but I'd love to hear myself proven wrong and that this is a good move... it's hard for me to find uses because i don't really use it a lot and usually go for dtilt
 

Kris121

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WOAH When did steeler change his name and yeah i always jab then use the c stick trying to smash only to continue the jab
Seriously how'd you change the name i liked it before
 

Zephramrill

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if you hit them with ivys jab you should have used dtilt lol. I'm with chok and steeler (apparently not from the nsider boards anymore) in that i rarely jab with ivy.
 

Retro Gaming

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I'll also agree. I HATE Ivysaur's jab combo and it is, IMO, the worst move Ivysaur's got (Except for those stupid moves like "get up attack" or "get off the ledge" attack). It can be a pretty funny attack on Pokemon Stadium 1 on the left side of the burnt tree, but generally I find the time between the first and second attack very slow. I HAVE been hit out of the move by some very fast attacks.
 

PkTrainerCris

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Some guy came here and said that he was trying to cancel the jab into other stuff like grabbing or dtilting, which may help a lot ivy's jab, i suported him but i didn't know what happened after :p
Anyway something like that would be pretty cool and give ivys jab a good use
You gotta remember that you have to end the A input a significant time before you want to finish the attack
 

Zephramrill

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I think everyones going to agree Ivys jab sucks, the jab lock against walls and objects on legal stages should be tested, but any use i can imagine for jab another move does a better job. So we need specific instances where you guys believe it is crucial to use jab above all else, or any trendy combo or setup you have with jab. Plus frame data and all that other stuff.
 

Onxy

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I think it's actually good. It's nice to have a move that isn't just going to be side-stepped and get punished. It has huge range. I think it's wonderful, actually.
 

choknater

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good point about the sidestepping thing Onxy

it's just scary to use sometimes, kinda like metaknight's jab but not nearly as fast. its hitstun is so low that there is great risk of being hit simply because of using a highly punishable attack.
 

Onxy

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It's not really low, only the first few hits are kinda low. At higher damage (around 35+), there is more hitstun.
 

Zephramrill

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Its pretty punishable really. All my opponents SDI out of it after 2 or 3 hits tops and then if i get button buffer lag i get *****. Besides theres lot of moves that if they spotdodge they will still get hit that could be used in the same place as jab, such as a SH nair (which has tons of followups) a retreating bair, bullet seed etc. charged smashes **** spotdodging =)
 

Onxy

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Use it to stop ground approaches. It works against MK really well. It actually won me games because of its long range. MK has a hard time approaching from the air against Ivysaur, so he should approach from the ground (in a mix of both, really).
 

Zephramrill

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dtilt stops ground aprroaches, SHFF Bair does as well, so does ftilt to some degree, hell even shieldgrabbing can, and they all do it better than jab.

VS MK a single jab wont do enough to deter him and you will do like what 4 damage and get punished for probably 10-20? a jab combo will do 8 or 9% maybe up to 12? and then he SDIs and shuttle loops, nairs, or if he gets behind you smashes and he did more damage again.

If ivy can force a ground break than maybe go for a jab combo after that (altho ivys pummel is so **** i wouldnt reccomend wasting the nice setups her throws set for you.)
 

Onxy

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Ftilt

People, PM me if you want me to add anything to a move that was already discussed. If you post it here, I will ignore it. I'm not going to dig up stuff, or read things that are off topic. Sorry
 

Steeler

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ftilt's a solid move, ivy's best ground move imho. good damage output, better range than dtilt, but the multiple hit nature of it makes the damage crap at its max range.
 

choknater

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really good for spacing, not that punishable

while jab and dtilt are faster, closer range options, ftilt's unexpected range and multi hits are a really good way to rack up damage. also a very good option, mostly because of its reach

basically ivy's horizontal spacing game is like this

long range: razor leaf

medium range: bair, fair, ftilt, fsmash, grab

close range: dtilt, jab, grab, nair, BULLET SEED

ftilt has its own good little niche in ivy's move choices
 

Blad01

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From what you aid chok, i think that Ivy's FTilt is a little less rewarding than Grab, but a lot more safe. If you want a safe close range move, do an FTilt; if you want a more rewarding option, but a little bit risky, try to grab. :)
 

CaliburChamp

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Ivysaur's F-tilt works great out of shield and the move hits 7 times at it's max, thats great to get rid of diminishing returns.
Another application would be SHADing into F-tilt. B-air to F-tilt. Side B to F-tilt.
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
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It works out of Nair too, and to a lesser extent Bair.

I basically use this move to cover landings if necessary, but Nair is better for that purpose if they're going to jump into you or are right below you.

Ftilt is not an option when they're right next to you.
 

Onxy

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Autocancelled Fair? Am I missing something here? When did this happen?
 

choknater

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it's not really a "cancel" it's just doing it right away in a short hop so that the animation finishes and u have no landing lag
 
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