Ivysaur Moveset Discussion (Currently: Utilt)

[Onxy]

PM me if you want me to add something to a move that was already discussed or other ideas.

Basically, we discuss moves.

Is there anything we can do with this move? Any AT's or other usage for the move?

I'll need:

Uses:
DMG:
Frames:
AT:
Autocancel:
Special Properties:
Followups and Usage:

Sorry, no pretty pictures, I want to save space xD

I'll update every week.


Razor Leaf

Uses: Spacing, setting up for a grab or tackle.

DMG: 6-8% (when fatigued 6-8% ??)

Frames: N/A

AT: Wavebouncing/B-sticking

Autocancel: no

Followups and Usage:
Razor Leaf is a wonderful attack, it can be used for many things. It can be used as an approach by throwing a Razor Leaf and following up with a grab or dash attack (even when they shield, you still might be able to pull it off.) Tilting the Razor Leaf in that matter can be more helpful when you are looking to follow up with an attack.

If set to a C-stick, you can "wave bounce", but is basically a turn-around special.

Razor Leaf is also good for knocking the opponent off the ledge if you are being edgehogged. You can also turn around with Razor Leaf and Bair them off the ledge. Turning around with Razor Leaf and using Bair to get an opponent off you can prove to be very helpful.

Razor Leaf adds a lot you your aerial speed as well. You can jump back and do a SH Razor Leaf and end back where you started. How much aerial speed it adds is still left undiscussed.

Special Properties:
- You can control the distance based off a smash or a tilt. The tilt razorleaf will cover a short distance and is slower while a Smash razorleaf will cover more distance and is faster.
- Razor Leaf cannot be absorbed(i.e. G&W's bucket) but can be reflected
- Razorleaf goes through breakable terrain i.e. Luigi's mansion and Castle siege statues. Also can go through projectiles such as the Ice Climbers' Ice Block.
- Its trajectory is randomized (until proven otherwise). But it can curve upwarwards/downwards or straight.
- a SH razorleaf into a standing razorleaf is faster than 2 standing razorleaves

Also...

Ok so after serious amounts of time testing out razor leaf and studying it I have found the actual patterns of the leaves and have found certain ways to control the actual leaves. To start I must first explain the first thing I found while studying razor leaf.......razor leaf will on the regular throw "stray leaves" or leaves that drift away from the opponent. These leaves I am sure many of us have seen and if you were researching razor leaf this concept would have infuriated you due to that fact that it makes findings mean nothing all the time and overall can create counter arguments to all the work I have done. "Stray leaves" can happen up to 1 out of every 2 leaves you throw. Overall the average stray occurs once every 3 leaves, 3 out of ten leaves in most cases were stray leaves.

Now that stray leaves have been explained now its down to all the info about the path the leaves take. To start the leaves can travel two ways, first the leaf has a spin to it which will determine lifespan and the more circular and faster that leaf spins will cause the leaf not only to cover more distance but it will take longer due to the more distance covered. Second the leaf can angle upwards and downwards and due to this angle the overall lifespan of a leaf can be questioned. If it gets an upward angle the leaf will most likely miss the opponent and drift off, where as when you get a leaf to travel at a downwards angle it is almost promised that you will get perfect spin and speed on it. Overall the best outcome I have seen from this is having the leaf spin in full circles at a downward angle with full speed, these I will define as perfect leaves. This bears the best results will almost always hit the opponent and will always make it through shields.

Next if you are grounded throwing razor leaves you cut you possibilities of stray leaves quite and bit. Throwing razor leaves while on the ground for me seemed to have 8 to 9 out of 10 leaves travel in a straight path with the leaf spinning in perfect circles. If you throw the leaves in the air this is where research became tricker. So to start being in the air causes a higher chance of stray leaves, while in the air there were times where I threw up to 6 out of 10 stray leaves, obviously not good. It is not only being in the air that raises chances of stray leaves but it is actually being in the air without drifting that raises the chances of stray leaves. Crazy Im sure it seems but when drifting back or forward with the leaves you will have way higher chances of throwing perfect leaves as earlier stated. The big find I had to truely throw perfect leaves is to time your landing so that all 4 of ivy's paws hit the ground right as you throw the leaf, the timing is a bit of a pain but once I had it down I threw 10 perfect leaves in a row on at least 5 different occasions. The leaf has to start to travel right as ivy's paws are on the floor and the perfect leaves just start to happen.

I tested out holding directions and c stick directions but no 100% way to throw or control the leaves came from it. In short it seems that you can throw perfect leaves or stray leaves and there are difference is the only one I found which was having all four of ivy's paws hit the floor as you throw it. If anyone else has found ways to control the leaves I hope I am not being redundant, but I have put alot of effort into finding this all out and the timing is not easy at all but once you get it I promise at least 9 out of 10 perfect leaves on average.

Vinewhip

Uses: Recovery, Kill Move

DMG: 7-10%, 13% Sweetspot (when fatigued 6-9%, 10% Sweetspot)

Frames: ?

AT: Instant Tether:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVSmzY_VRrw

Autocancel: no


Special properties when tethered:
- Used as tether recovery, push A to pull yourself to the edge to edge hog
- Includes Advance technique Instant tether, for followups goto http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198927
- When tethered to the stage you can re-tether up to 3 times before you have to touch the floor to reset.
- You can cancel a tether by pushin down/back. benefits to this are Instant Tether cancelling and platform cancelling

Special properties when used offensively:
- Has a sweetspot at the end of the vine that causes a whip sounds if hit correctly
- The sweetspot gets good knockback from48% or higher and is a great kill move after 80%
- You can instantly do a pivot vinewhip by pushing u/b+b(great after an utilt)
- If you do it in the air it gives you a small jump before releasing it.
- Can be linked from a fair at certain percentages:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie8PtTlcVu8
- Can be used to stage spike someone edgehogging you

So, to cap on some things that are definites that should be talked about:

Vine whip is a tether recovery, which gives it some unique properties. Some of these properties are quite nice; Ivysaur can sweetspot the ledge from a wide variety of different places off ledge. As is in Card's guide, about this

wide a variety. That's nice. Also, it can be used as a gimp on opponents recovering below the stage; opponents cannot grab the ledge if you are latched to it and hanging. A common way of doing this, dubbed the Instant Edgeguard, has ivy run off the ledge and instantly upb towards the stage. Ivy pops up, latches the ledge, and stalls in the air slightly before falling, still latched, underneath the stage. There are many other ways to put yourself in good gimping situations as well, be creative!

However there are many cons that come with this special recovery as well. Simply put, if someone else is on the ledge and you need to use vine whip to get back to the ledge, you're losing a stock. This means that as an ivysaur player you MUST be unpredictable with your recovery. Keeping your second jump is very important, as it gives you options as to how to move your opponent off of the ledge.

Options for getting rid of an on-edge opponent that have been mentioned:

Backwards razor leaf to bair
Forwards razor leaf at the opponent to vine whip on RL hit (to steal ledge)
Double jump into nair
Double jump into fair (from Adriel)
Wait them out and see if they roll off in time for ivy to tether the ledge
More ideas?

Also, if all hope is lost, set yourself up for a vine whip attack! If they sit on the ledge all "hurr hurr ivehsaur" sweetspot an attack and stagespike that ho. They'll die before you will if they're at average damage and not metaknight. Its won me a few games and should not be underestimated as a last resort.

One other special property that comes into play with vine whip as a recovery is your tether limit. If you attempt to tether more than three times, even if you are within range you won't latch, and instead will fall to your death. Using vine whip as a stall or a mindgame tactic can be a useful tool, but keeping your three tether limit in mind will save your ivysaur (and you) some embarrassing deaths if you implement this tactic.

Also, this move functions as a powerful attack. When on ground (or not in midair with a nearby ledge to grab) ivysaur throws out a vine at 45 degrees up in front of her. The tip is a sweetspot which does considerable knockback and 13 damage, 10 fatigued, and the rest does anywhere from 7-10, or 6-9 fatigued (so says Card's guide).

Uses for vine whip as an attack that have been mentioned:

Dthrow to vinewhip at low % (0-20ish?)
Surprise to opponents approaching over razor leaf
Hitting an opponent on a platform above you
Generally more instances where the opponent won't expect it
More ideas?

Its not the easiest thing to land, but don't let your opponent forget its there. If they come to fear it that's one more thing for them to think about, and that never hurts

Comments? Points of contention?

Hopefully Card won't mind me stealing his picture xD

As said, Vinewhip can be used to stage-spike someone off the ledge when hogging, but please don't put yourself in that position..

Bulletseed

Uses: Punishing, Damage Racking, Combo Breaking, and Attacking out of Shield

DMG: ]4,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,1,1,1…..% (when fatigued 2,1,1,1,1,1,1……%)

Frames: 1?

AT: No

Autocancel: No

Special Properties:
- 1st hit covers half a body length on either side and causes the opponent to pop up.
- Great Out of shield/Out of dodge followup. Used for punishment.
- If you don't DI the 1st hit you are almost garanteed 30+% from the stream
- There is also a hitbox underneath Ivysaur if you do an aerial Bulletseed.
- Can be used to interrupt combos and chaingrabs.
- If an opponent during an attack animation is struck by the Bullet Seed pop-up, that opponent has significantly less DI.

Followups and Usage: There are many ways you can land a Bulletseed. You can hit the opponent with a Nair and auto cancel to followup with a Bulletseed. DI'ing it will be hard because the opponent is being hit as you are going to use Bulletseed. Make sure the opponent is NOT in the air, even slightly, when you are going for the Bulletseed. Like Charizard's Dsmash, it only affects those on the ground. Using Bair into Bulletseed isn't a bad idea either, just make sure you are close and they are not getting knocked into the air from the Bair. It's also fun to leap into your opponent with a Bulletseed active and rack like 60% damage xD

A list of what Bulletseed can break out of:

• Sheik's Ftilt lock.
• Marth's Downward last hit of Dancing Blade.
• Chain grabs if the opponent does not execute them perfectly (More so Falco)
• Falco's jabs (With DI up)
• Almost any jab combo if the opponent purposely delays it.
• Almost any jab combo if there is an involuntary delay.
• Almost any chain attack that is on the ground (i.e. Fox's Utilt chain)

My Opinion:

Punishing - Probably one one the deadliest punishers, and many will defend 'till death that it sucks, for some reason. It does suck when you miss it, as it has a very long ending lag; for the love of God, people, STOP SPAMMING IT!!!!. You can DI out of the pop-up, but does that mean you shouldn't use it? Of course not! If an opponent misses an attack, go for it! If you side-step a grab, go for it! If someone is stupid enough to come directly above you and attack, go for it! When your opponent is climbing back on the stage and not doing the get-up-attack, go for *is shot*.

Damage Racking - Best form of damage racking in the game, at least I think so. Not much to say here, except how HAW-SOME it is.

Combo Breaking - Combos... in Brawl? Lies... Anyway, you can break out of just about any tilt lock, most jabs, and some chaingrabs. The thing is, if you have a lot of damage done to you, it will become harder and harder to break combos with, as the hitstun is increased (hitstun...in Brawl? Lies....). Don't bother timing your Bulletseed to break out of something like a tilt lock, just keep hitting B, as it comes out in 1 frame.

Attacking Out of Shield - It's good 'n' all, but least effective out of the four uses. This could is basically be added onto the punishing portion, but it doesn't always have to be for punishing. You can always shield to be safe when they are next to you and Bulletseed, but there is a problem with that....there is little horizonal range.. It's very much punishable, for the same reasons as stated (having a bad ending-lag).

Jab

Uses: Spacing

DMG: endless hit combo – 3%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 1%, 2%, 1%...... (when fatigued 2,1,1,1,1,1….%)

Frames: ?

AT: None

Autocancel: No

Special Properties: none

Followups and Usage: It's a spacing attack The range is very long, but the consensus is that dtilt is a better option.

My opinion:

Spacing - I feel that Ivy's jab is amazing. The range is huge, and it can stop ground
approaches easily because it is a constant attack. Dtilt for me is not a better option,
because if the Dtilt is anticipated and side-stepped, then what? Since jab is constant, you
won't have that problem. Don't spam it, though; it's punishable. Use it when
you are being assaulted on the ground. Don't use it before time and expect them to run into
it. My advice, don't listen to people. Try the move out yourself.

Ftilt

Uses: Spacing, approaching, and following up from an autocancelled aerial.

DMG: 7 hits,14% max ( 10-12% fatigued)

Frames: ?

AT: none

Autocancel: no

Special Properties: nothing, really.

Followups and Usage: Spacing is it's best usage. It has the range of Ike's Ftilt if you tip it, although the damage will only be 2%. Since Ivysaur kinda "projects" herself to do this attack, it's a horrible close ranged attack; don't try to use it point blank, the opponent can DI behind you and hit you. It's easy to DI out of, if you expect it. Ftilt has no kill power, and this move is not easy to punish when you strike a shield.

This move is good to followup from a Bair, but not so great from a Nair. It's good to followup from a Bair because of its long range, but Nair has no range. It is difficult at times to hit an opponent with a Ftilt that is being followed from a Bair. Not because it is easy to see comming, but because Ivysaur, at times, will decide to randomly jab instead of doing the Ftilt. It's annoying, and I've been killed many times because of this. You can also use Ftilt after an autocancelled Fair, so this makes for an even better approach.
My opinion:

Spacing: not much more to explain, except that it is a good spacer.

Approaching: it can be good to approach with a combination Razor Leaf and Fair. Use it.

 

[Onxy]

More space.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Razor leaf is an interesting proyectile, it cannot be absorbed by lucas, ness or g&w... it can be reflected, but it doesnt travel very long, so if you throw the razor leaf from the right distance it wont make it back to hit you... keep in mind that if you "smash" the control stick it will travel faster than just tilting.
It can go up or down, im not sure now if its random or tilting forward makes it go up and tilting backward makes it go down
Thats all i have to say by now.

 

[The Derrit]

So Razor Leaf is ****. Cris covered the basics. Something that many PTs overlook is the usefulness of a non-smashed razor leaf; it creates a similar amount of shield pressure from proper range, and can be more easily followed up with a grab (given hit OR shield if well timed) or dash attack (on hit). There are many other options of course but tilted razor leaf can be great.

This move also has a ton of aerial mobility. SHed razor leaf allows you to jump a body's length back and still land where you started; ivy's mobility goes from pretty not that good to near wario-like properties while using this move in midair.

 

[CoonTail]

Well I wasnt sure about the smashing with the razor leaf , but i had thought that if you jumped which direction you were traveling affected the leaf. If you were raising as you threw the razor lead the leaf would curve upward and if you were falling the leaf would have a downward path. I could be wrong on that I had thought this was something that had been found out. You can also control the speed of the leaf and the way it travels. I personally always try to throw the leaf so that it spins in circles, if the leaf is spinning in fast circular patterns the leaf will travel a set path and wont curve. Thats all my findings on razor leaf.

 

[momochuu]

Razor leaf also goes through Ice Blocks. Too much priority.

I still <3 Ivysaur...if you know what I mean. :]

 

[Steeler]

I still <3 Ivysaur...if you know what I mean. :]

that's a little weird bunny

i didn't know there was a smash/tilt difference lol

but anyway, good defensive move against some characters, good approach move against most characters.

 

[Zephramrill]

Razor Leaf can be punished, so if permissable its best to do the Shorthop reverse RL that a lot of PTs favor.

 

[Bomber7]

razor leaf is a good spam and good to follow up with a grab, distance permitting or if the person rolls in range or gets in range then punish them with a bulllet seed. though razor leaf is a mid-range attack though I'd give it a higher mid range attack.

 

[typh]

sh reverse razor leaf, run in with the leaf for the follow up, if they shield it, grab (you will be right next to them when it hits their shield so grab when they are still shieldlagged)

if they get hit by it i like to do a dash attack sets them up nicely in front of you in the air for a uair, nair, fair, whatever (even a surprise up-b snipe if you're feeling lucky)

if they powershield it you're screwed xd

 

[Canvasofgrey]

While a good projectile, it's recovery and start-up has lack. Spammable at a distance, and useful to get edge-guarders off of the ledge so you can tether. It's essential to Ivysaur, and shouldn't be over-looked, let not over-used where it becomes predictable and punishable.

7.8/10

 

[CHOMPY]

If you set your C-Stick moves to special instead of smash. Ivysaur will end up doing a wavebounce and I find that his special moves move alot faster than his regular B button. Then again you cant use the smash attacks as quickly as you can normally.

 

[CoonTail]

Now my question is can we get more information on razor leaf such as all the different ways to throw the leaves, figure outhow to make them raise and lower, how to make them spin faster and with less curve. If we can get all this down it could help everyones overall knowledge of the projectile but also which variant of the throw for certain situations. Ive begun to experiment to figure this out but it seems it will take more than just me to find the exact ways to make each happen.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

When it comes to setting C-stick. It's more on preference over what is necessary to win, since I'm sure tournaments have been won with all settings of it. I wouldn't recommend setting C-stick on speicals for Ivysaur, let alone PT in general since one speical is already useless [ DownB ] on C-stick.

edit::

I think the trajectory of the razor leaf is random on neutral air, though I think it's influenced as well by wind effects.

 

[CoonTail]

Yea well im more of a c-stick fan and I havent heard of to many b-stick poke trainers would be kool to see tho. As far as razor leaf goes you can control the way the leaf moves and spins im not 100% on anything yet tho, as far as wind goes thats something else that should be checked out.....

 

[Adriel]

Razor leaf can go through the pillars on Luigi's Mansion and Castle Siege.

 

[typh]

you can "wavebounce" (stupid name) without the cstick set to b

 

[CoonTail]

Wow thats pretty awesome I have heard about it before but never got the breakdown. I have a weird controller layout so if someone could explain this to me and I wont have to change my controls again would be really awesome

 

[typh]

basically when you're in the air hold forward quickly press back then immediately forward-b

takes really good timing though

 

[CoonTail]

Word typh this will be practiced because I want to see the affect this has on the way the leaf travels and the path it takes. If this can make the leaf do spirals and travel towards and enemies feet I will be so down to do this regularly lol

 

[Kitamerby]

Word typh this will be practiced because I want to see the affect this has on the way the leaf travels and the path it takes. If this can make the leaf do spirals and travel towards and enemies feet I will be so down to do this regularly lol

In all honesty, Wavebouncing is just B-reversing a turn-around special. <<

Also, Razor Leaf seems pretty random to me. I don't think there even is a way to choose how it goes aside from speed. Otherwise, setting your c-stick to specials and tapping left would always make it follow the exact same path.

 

[SonicFire]

Razor Leaf is random, isn't it? It doesn't matter where you tilt the control stick/C-stick, sometimes it goes the way you want it to, sometimes it doesn't.

Need to test it.

 

[CoonTail]

well thats pretty odd if razor leaf is random because as I stated earlier in this forum ive been testing it and there is deffinitly an affect on the leaf if you throw it in mid air. The leaf will spin differently and travel differently based on where in your jump you are. I need more testing but Im almost 100% it is not random because I have managed to throw a razor leaf the same way 10 times in a row (where it travels at full speed with the leaf spinning in circles and travels from ivy diagonally away and down towards the floor) which what I was trying to do so I had the pattern down just not for long.

 

[The Derrit]

well thats pretty odd if razor leaf is random because as I stated earlier in this forum ive been testing it and there is deffinitly an affect on the leaf if you throw it in mid air. The leaf will spin differently and travel differently based on where in your jump you are. I need more testing but Im almost 100% it is not random because I have managed to throw a razor leaf the same way 10 times in a row (Travels at full speed with the leaf spinning in circles and travels from ivy diagonally away and down towards the floor.

What he said. There is a definite pattern but we have yet to figure it out exactly. If I have sometime I'll do my best to test on this.

 

[CoonTail]

What he said. There is a definite pattern but we have yet to figure it out exactly. If I have sometime I'll do my best to test on this.

Ahh at least one person is with me on this. Thanks derritt and yes if you ca test ill be doing so too but I think if we can figure out how to throw the leaves we could essentially add that much more to the attack itself. Ok so back to testing it is...

 

[typh]

i had a weird ****ing razor leaf today

i shot it out and it just hung about one ivysaur length away from me for about a second and a half

wtf

 

[CoonTail]

i had a weird ****ing razor leaf today

i shot it out and it just hung about one ivysaur length away from me for about a second and a half

wtf

Im telling you guys you can control it and typh managed to make his travel with such slow speed it didnt get past an ivy length away from him for the full lifetime of a razor leaf

 

[Syrus_Draco]

I'm curious to know if anyone else has tried this...

So I got in a DDD chain grab and someone (I forget where) said to counter that with bullet seed. Sure enough in the middle ofthe chain I was able to vaccuum DDD in and punish the chain grab to a full bullet seed.

Anyone else been able to do this? Maybe against other chain grab characters or in general? Or was it just a fluke and a mistake on the DDD player's end?

 

[typh]

if dedede chaingrabs properly you can't seed him like that.

 

[SonicFire]

Wait, so now there's a possibility you can control Razor Leaf's direction and speed?

 

[PkTrainerCris]

I'm curious to know if anyone else has tried this...

So I got in a DDD chain grab and someone (I forget where) said to counter that with bullet seed. Sure enough in the middle ofthe chain I was able to vaccuum DDD in and punish the chain grab to a full bullet seed.

Anyone else been able to do this? Maybe against other chain grab characters or in general? Or was it just a fluke and a mistake on the DDD player's end?

Depends on the timing of the chaingrab, but its not totally useless, a DDD may think it twice befores CGing you because of the risk of taking like 35% damage from bulletseed, and it makes it harder for the DDD player, bullet seed helps to make chaingrabing less gay
But... why are we talking about it on the razor leaf thread??

 

[SonicFire]

I don't think the thread is COMPLETELY on Razor Leaf. Just that it's the main topic at the moment.

What are the set-ups on this move?

 

[Syrus_Draco]

My mistake, I thought I had the general tactical discussion ;p

As for Razor Leaf you can't control how it moves but you can give it an influence. Just from what I've seen on the ground it'll either curve up or down at the near end. You can give it influence, as jumping or short hoping will make the leaf go in a straight line.

 

[CoonTail]

My mistake, I thought I had the general tactical discussion ;p

As for Razor Leaf you can't control how it moves but you can give it an influence. Just from what I've seen on the ground it'll either curve up or down at the near end. You can give it influence, as jumping or short hoping will make the leaf go in a straight line.

Draco you are correct that you can influence the leaf in the air, but you are not correct in thinking that throwing the leaves from the air causes straight paths. I jump and throw the leaves and get them to curve quite often, Derritt and I are looking into this but unless your testing this please dont make blanket statements saying you cannot control razor leaf, you say just from what youve seen so dont take this as an attack I may be misunderstanding your view. Just players workin on figuring this out wouldnt respond very nicely to people just saying that something doesnt work without testing it themselves and ignoring the work others are putting into this.

Sorry to seem angry just the answer to controlling razor leaf is not coming easy and Ive been testing for almost a week now.

 

[choknater]

Haha, I think the Pokemon Trainer boards are so awesome, they SHOULD have a thread for every move.

 

[Syrus_Draco]

Draco you are correct that you can influence the leaf in the air, but you are not correct in thinking that throwing the leaves from the air causes straight paths. I jump and throw the leaves and get them to curve quite often, Derritt and I are looking into this but unless your testing this please dont make blanket statements saying you cannot control razor leaf, you say just from what youve seen so dont take this as an attack I may be misunderstanding your view. Just players workin on figuring this out wouldnt respond very nicely to people just saying that something doesnt work without testing it themselves and ignoring the work others are putting into this.

Sorry to seem angry just the answer to controlling razor leaf is not coming easy and Ive been testing for almost a week now.

I don't mind being wrong, that's what we're all here for. To learn, share, compare tactics and findings and work it all out to everyone's benefit. I base my statements off of what I experience, and if I'm wrong on certain points then I'm wrong =]

And I'm not ignoring the work you or anyone else puts into this. If you want to correct me or point me to where you've tested to things, whether written or youtube I'm all fine and open to that. Never claimed to have my word be absolute truth ;p So if there are ways to control how the leaf gets out then cool, I'll look forward to using those tactics in my game play =]

 

[CoonTail]

Haha well thanks for being kind Draco, I just get a lil ticked over blanket statements. But yea Im still a lil unknown here on the PT boards, but I do put alot of work behind any of the statement I make. So thanks for not taking that as an attack and so kindly responding. Hopefully soon Ill have good news to spread as to the controlling aspect to razor leaf.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I've been occasionally testing the Razor leaf out and so far I have...

Nothing.

I can't really detect a pattern on neutral air stages, but I speculate the ending curve of Razor leaf happens depends when the leaf slows down and what position the sickle of the leaf is pointing. But it's just a speculation as I have no proof.

 

[choknater]

LOL wow i just found out today that theres a difference between smash razor leaf and tilt razor leaf

wow i suck

 

[typh]

dont worry i didn't know either lmao