Swann
Smash Journeyman
That is hella awesome.
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Ivysaur League Graduates: The Ivysaur Social Thread
- Thread starter Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir
- Start date
Now that PM 3.0 is out, we have a changelist. I figured it would be a good idea to get a thread here to discuss Ivysaur's changes, as I can give more detailed changes than "angles lowered slightly."
-F-Tilt endlag increased by 4 frames (IASA 35 -> 39).
-F-Tilt back hitbox and the innermost front hitbox have increased SDI multipliers (0.75x -> 1.05x).
-F-Tilt back final hitbox damage decreased to match earlier weak hits (7 -> 2).
-D-Tilt's 2nd hit now only pops up at the outer 2 hitboxes instead of outer 3 hitboxes.
-N-Air final hit KBG decreased.
-F-Air startup increased by 4 frames (1-10 -> 1-14).
-F-Air hitbox angles significantly decreased (from inner to outer, 85/90/90/95 -> Sakurai angle/70/70/80).
-F-Air damage slightly increased (from inner to outer, 8/8/12/12 -> 9/9/13/13).
-F-Air base knockback increased, knockback growth decreased.
-B-Air startup and endlag increased, made to be similar to v2.5 speeds and angles (from inner to outer, Sakurai angle/50/55/60 -> 38/38/30/30).
-B-Air knockback increased to v2.5 levels, and damage increased (8/7/4/3 -> 8/7/5/5)
-U-Air sweetspot knockback and damage increased (6 -> 7). Size decreased (4.75 -> 3.25), with the sweetspot deeper inside Ivysaur. Sourspot angle decreased (75 -> 70).
-U-Air no longer halts horizontal momentum on fall.
-U-Air meteor now two side-by-side hitboxes - maintains horizontal coverage but has negative disjoint on the bottom.
-D-Air cooldown increased by 3 frames.
-D-Air air/ground hits' damage increased, air/ground hits homogenized (5/6 -> 7/7)
-D-Air sweetspot size decreased (4.50 -> 3.50), with the sweetspot deeper inside Ivysaur
-Outer 2 of 5 grab-boxes on standing & pivot grab + outer 1 grab-box of 3 on dash grab are ground-only to alleviate CG issues.
-F-Throw knockback decreased to match 2.6 B-Throw.
-B-Throw knockback growth slightly increased.
-U-Throw angle increased (90 -> 100)
-U-Throw knockback growth decreased (72 -> 61).
-D-Throw knockback growth increased (50 -> 61)
-Neutral-B startup hit now a relatively weak windbox (still has a landing cancel).
-Neutral-B max charge lowered from 22% to 18%.
-Forward-B checks if existing leaf is out on Frame 1 instead of 15.
-Forward-B hit refresh rate slower (8 frames between hits -> 13), damage increased per hit (2 -> 3), knockback angle increased (45 -> 60).
-Forward-B slowed down to v2.5 timings; physics/floats ported from v2.5, but lasts 5 frames longer.
-Up-B sweetspot hitbox size slightly increased (4.5 -> 5)
-Up-B sweetspot damage increased (16 -> 18).
-Down-B seeds rise move slowly, do not go as high, and fall more slowly.
Feel free to talk about your experiences and see what kind of possibilities the changes give you.
-F-Tilt endlag increased by 4 frames (IASA 35 -> 39).
-F-Tilt back hitbox and the innermost front hitbox have increased SDI multipliers (0.75x -> 1.05x).
-F-Tilt back final hitbox damage decreased to match earlier weak hits (7 -> 2).
-D-Tilt's 2nd hit now only pops up at the outer 2 hitboxes instead of outer 3 hitboxes.
-N-Air final hit KBG decreased.
-F-Air startup increased by 4 frames (1-10 -> 1-14).
-F-Air hitbox angles significantly decreased (from inner to outer, 85/90/90/95 -> Sakurai angle/70/70/80).
-F-Air damage slightly increased (from inner to outer, 8/8/12/12 -> 9/9/13/13).
-F-Air base knockback increased, knockback growth decreased.
-B-Air startup and endlag increased, made to be similar to v2.5 speeds and angles (from inner to outer, Sakurai angle/50/55/60 -> 38/38/30/30).
-B-Air knockback increased to v2.5 levels, and damage increased (8/7/4/3 -> 8/7/5/5)
-U-Air sweetspot knockback and damage increased (6 -> 7). Size decreased (4.75 -> 3.25), with the sweetspot deeper inside Ivysaur. Sourspot angle decreased (75 -> 70).
-U-Air no longer halts horizontal momentum on fall.
-U-Air meteor now two side-by-side hitboxes - maintains horizontal coverage but has negative disjoint on the bottom.
-D-Air cooldown increased by 3 frames.
-D-Air air/ground hits' damage increased, air/ground hits homogenized (5/6 -> 7/7)
-D-Air sweetspot size decreased (4.50 -> 3.50), with the sweetspot deeper inside Ivysaur
-Outer 2 of 5 grab-boxes on standing & pivot grab + outer 1 grab-box of 3 on dash grab are ground-only to alleviate CG issues.
-F-Throw knockback decreased to match 2.6 B-Throw.
-B-Throw knockback growth slightly increased.
-U-Throw angle increased (90 -> 100)
-U-Throw knockback growth decreased (72 -> 61).
-D-Throw knockback growth increased (50 -> 61)
-Neutral-B startup hit now a relatively weak windbox (still has a landing cancel).
-Neutral-B max charge lowered from 22% to 18%.
-Forward-B checks if existing leaf is out on Frame 1 instead of 15.
-Forward-B hit refresh rate slower (8 frames between hits -> 13), damage increased per hit (2 -> 3), knockback angle increased (45 -> 60).
-Forward-B slowed down to v2.5 timings; physics/floats ported from v2.5, but lasts 5 frames longer.
-Up-B sweetspot hitbox size slightly increased (4.5 -> 5)
-Up-B sweetspot damage increased (16 -> 18).
-Down-B seeds rise move slowly, do not go as high, and fall more slowly.
Feel free to talk about your experiences and see what kind of possibilities the changes give you.
Whoops, I forgot to delete this after I saw your initial post in the social thread. We can talk about it there. :x
StoneBone
Smash Cadet
I've only recently been introduced to P:M, so i've missed the greatness that was the earlier Ivysaur versions. with dat 3.01 Ivy doe? I'm having tons of fun! if anyone wants to play feel free to add my FC! hoping to become a regular 'round these parts.
Yeerk
Smash Journeyman
There's a fairly active wifi thread at http://smashboards.com/threads/wifi-friend-code-list.343645/page-25#post-16173176
There's also xat.com/dabessdi where people are always looking to play!
There's also xat.com/dabessdi where people are always looking to play!
Yeerk
Smash Journeyman
I thought they said that doesn't work quite yet?
Swann
Smash Journeyman
That Xat client is painful to look at...
ScaryPixel
Smash Cadet
I'll try my best to make my fellow cabbage peeps proud.
Yeerk
Smash Journeyman
Since Reflex isn't going to Apex, who can I bet on to get into Top 8 with Ivy?? :D
Lamb from Nova Scotia. He's got this tournament on lock.
Yeerk
Smash Journeyman
Top 8 material, eh? I can dig it. So long as there's not a Roy in Top 8 I'm in for some $$$$
Oh if there's actual money on the line I should probably be realistic lol
I mean, Lamb is sick, but probably not Top 8 material. Too many great players to really make an accurate prediction lol
Yeerk
Smash Journeyman
It's ok, my bet is only that a Roy will NOT make Top 8. I would probably only put money on Reflex anyway if I was betting on Ivysaurs.
haha, you're betting against Sethlon? idk about that man...
Yeerk
Smash Journeyman
Lol I'm more betting against the character than the player. The character's just not good enough imo. We'll see!
Serris
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
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So, about that bet...
Yeerk
Smash Journeyman
Nice. Lol I figured someone not involved would love to call me out on it.
Specifically, the bet was that no Roy main would go all Roy through the entirety of the tournament and make Top 8. I heard from a commentator that Sethlon went GnW against two Metaknights, but that seemed weird to me. Anyways, if it's not true, I lost.
IMO Sethlon lucked out in bracket. He didn't have to play M2K, Armada, Rolex, Zhime, Leffen, Oracle, or Eli, all of whom were on the other side of the bracket, before Top 8. It was still fun to watch him though, since I've been maining Roy since 3.0.
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Dunno who said that...I went straight Roy throughout all of singles. I think the only actual games I didn't play Roy the entire weekend were a couple of Sonic ditto friendlies with GHNeko lol.
I was actually set to play Eli in losers bracket well before top 8 after losing to Fly Amanita, but then ESAM ended up taking Eli out before he could get to me.
Yeerk
Smash Journeyman
Nice. Here's the video where I heard it.
http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/496193395?t=1h40m
I probably only listened to TKBreezy because he was saving me some money! "The voice of Project M" lol. Congrats, though. I owe some money.
I would just like to say I have infinite love for PM Ivy. Ivy was already one of my favourites in Brawl and she pretty much got better in every way. Seed Bomb and Razor Leaf are nuts for stage control, L-Cancellable Bair and Nair is totally dope, and of course, USmash into Solarbeam, which is why you always tech when Ivy touches you or die.
Good job Bulbasaur family, you have finally justified your existence.
Good job Bulbasaur family, you have finally justified your existence.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Sweet wants to know why Ivysaur's UpB randomly doesn't grab the ledge?
I have had it happen to me too and we tested it. The UpB hitbox will physically go through the ledge, but not grab it.
I originally thought you had to be at a 45 degree angle or lower for the UpB to grab the ledge, but that has been disproven through testing. Does it not accurately detect edges? It's a big deal having a random flaw in a character's recover that cannot be predicted.
I have had it happen to me too and we tested it. The UpB hitbox will physically go through the ledge, but not grab it.
I originally thought you had to be at a 45 degree angle or lower for the UpB to grab the ledge, but that has been disproven through testing. Does it not accurately detect edges? It's a big deal having a random flaw in a character's recover that cannot be predicted.
iirc if something like Randall is present Vine Whip won't snap the ledge.
If it's happening on stages with nothing at all like that, then I have no clue what's causing it.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Yeah it isn't because of Randall, that would be obvious to notice.
It legitimately just doesn't work at times where there is no apparent reason as to why it didn't.
It legitimately just doesn't work at times where there is no apparent reason as to why it didn't.
Dng3
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2008
- Messages
- 129
Honestly, I agree with you that this is a massive character flaw. I mean, to have an inconsistent recovery that works what it feels like 95 percent of the time, the fact that there's a small chance of failure at all creates unfair situations.
I've seen matches where Ivy players "suicide" because their Up B decided to fail them, and this is talking about stages without randall present. I'm not sure if ZSS has this similar problem but I feel that this is a huge disadvantage for Ivy players, which wasn't a design choice but an inevitable technical issue.
Vine whip in the air makes you do a little hop. However, the game checks if you're in range to catch the ledge before that hop. Therefore, if you are just a little bit too far to catch the ledge when you press upB, then instead of the ledge catch animation, you will get that hop, and the normal vine whip animation which finishes after that hop, so it will look like you were in range.
Yes, it's dumb. But that's the explanation.
Yes, it's dumb. But that's the explanation.
The stages it happens to me the most are YS Melee and Brawl, and FoD. Smashville sometimes.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Hmm, I get the hop thing, but it won't grab while moderately close, and then while REALLY far away it will grab.
The inconsistency is the issue. It isn't really about explanation, just vying to get it fixed.
The inconsistency is the issue. It isn't really about explanation, just vying to get it fixed.
So all stages with moving platforms (ie Randall, Ghost Platform, etc) like I mentioned before?
Machiavelli.CF
Ivy of the West
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Can you provide us a video of this occurence?
Because I'm pretty sure Teneban has the right idea.
Because I'm pretty sure Teneban has the right idea.
It's happened to me on Battlefield before, too.
I can't provide any videos at the moment. I will as soon as my computer restores. Lol.
And no. I don't use up air off stage.
I can't provide any videos at the moment. I will as soon as my computer restores. Lol.
And no. I don't use up air off stage.
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jtm94
Smash Lord
Teneban's possibility has already been factored out.
It can recover from REALLY far away, but sometimes when within a very close range of the ledge it will not grab it for no apparent reason.
It can recover from REALLY far away, but sometimes when within a very close range of the ledge it will not grab it for no apparent reason.
Swann
Smash Journeyman
EFFING SERIOUSLY
...honestly, I think the move is a much better balance between risk/reward. 2.6 ftilt was braindead, beat everything, and was unpunishable. 3.02 ftilt requires you to recognize if the other guy will DI away.
In other news--I took a game off PP today, in bracket. Got immediately destroyed by his Marth, but STILL, it happened. I'll get vids up when I can.
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Hmm, that upB thing is weird. I just try make sure I'm in range and that there's no obstacle between me and the ledge and it works out pretty well.
There are two kinds of multihits : the ones where you can move, and the one where you can't.
If you can move, I've got no problem with it being escapable, or even punishable on hit : part of the skill is to follow the opponent's DI by strafing. Our nair is a perfectly fine example of that.
The thing with ftilt is that you can't move. So if the opponent DIs, you can't adjust the move so that it still hits. So it's all about can it be punished. And spoiler alert, yes it can. At any percentage. And regardless of which part of the hitbox you hit with initially.
The only reason such a move should get punished is, say, the opponent shielded or dodged it (or CC'd it at least), but DI'd through it ? Come on. You don't DI through and punish Pikachu's dsmash, or Zelda's naryu, do you ? You just DI it to do some damage control.
And let's talk reward since you insist. Assuming it doesn't get punished, it doesn't combo into anything unless they mess up big time, it pretty much doesn't kill, they can go in all sorts of directions so the positional advantage cannot be predicted, and they take 13%. So basically, the only reward is 13%, and a possible zoning situation. That is, assuming you don't get 0-deathed for using it in the first place.
And yes I'm talking guaranteed punishes. Though the tests I've done were in slowmo mode, they consisted in P1 doing a ftilt and holding shield, and P2 DIing through, turning around, taking a tea then a nap, and still being in time to jab before the shield comes out. Repeat with different % and spacings.
And if playing Brawl for 5 years has taught me something, it's that if something can get punished regardless of what you do, don't use it, people will learn the matchup and punish you for it consistently.
Look at this match, and tell me how many ftilts you see :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf7o3BuPX1I
(ggs for taking a game on DrPP by the way :V)
effing seriously back to you, good sir.
There are two kinds of multihits : the ones where you can move, and the one where you can't.
If you can move, I've got no problem with it being escapable, or even punishable on hit : part of the skill is to follow the opponent's DI by strafing. Our nair is a perfectly fine example of that.
The thing with ftilt is that you can't move. So if the opponent DIs, you can't adjust the move so that it still hits. So it's all about can it be punished. And spoiler alert, yes it can. At any percentage. And regardless of which part of the hitbox you hit with initially.
The only reason such a move should get punished is, say, the opponent shielded or dodged it (or CC'd it at least), but DI'd through it ? Come on. You don't DI through and punish Pikachu's dsmash, or Zelda's naryu, do you ? You just DI it to do some damage control.
And let's talk reward since you insist. Assuming it doesn't get punished, it doesn't combo into anything unless they mess up big time, it pretty much doesn't kill, they can go in all sorts of directions so the positional advantage cannot be predicted, and they take 13%. So basically, the only reward is 13%, and a possible zoning situation. That is, assuming you don't get 0-deathed for using it in the first place.
And yes I'm talking guaranteed punishes. Though the tests I've done were in slowmo mode, they consisted in P1 doing a ftilt and holding shield, and P2 DIing through, turning around, taking a tea then a nap, and still being in time to jab before the shield comes out. Repeat with different % and spacings.
And if playing Brawl for 5 years has taught me something, it's that if something can get punished regardless of what you do, don't use it, people will learn the matchup and punish you for it consistently.
Look at this match, and tell me how many ftilts you see :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf7o3BuPX1I
(ggs for taking a game on DrPP by the way :V)
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Kit Cal-N
Smash Ace
Don't... ftilt? It might have been braindead in 2.6, but I don't see why you want to use it so much. I don't understand why it's necessary to Ivy's game at all. Every character has a situational / low reward move