Items should have banlists rather than outright banned in tournaments

[HugS]

another "lets use items at tournaments" thread by someone who doesn't really go to tournaments.

*sigh*

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

another "lets use items at tournaments" thread by someone who doesn't really go to tournaments.

*sigh*

Comments like that don't help anyone. No one's forcing you to read this thread.

 

[WarxePB]

Items are a feature intentionally coded into the game. As such, the developers of Smash meant for them to be used. This is a fact.

Items also do take a degree of skill to use. Sure, you could just throw Motion-Sensor Bombs around randomly, or just sit back and shoot an enemy with a Ray Gun, but precision use of items (putting Motion-Sensor Bombs on the edges, and comboing your moves into Ray Gun shots) is much more effective. This is also a fact.


These are common arguments for the use of items in competitive-level Smash. However, let's look at them a bit closer.


Items are in the game, and the developers meant for them to be used. Right?
Well, there's also a feature called the Item Switch. This allows you to change the rate at which items appear, as well as which items will appear. The key here is that items can be turned off - even though they're in the game, the developers knew that, sometimes, people would just want to have a serious match without any items on - a test of skill. Keep that last bit in mind, as I'll be coming back to it later.


Items take a degree of skill to use. Right?
That's true, but the randomness involved can give unfair advantages to already-advantaged players. Let's take a common example of this: Let's say that Link knocks Mario off the edge of the stage, forcing Mario to get back to the stage or lose a point/stock. But while Mario is recovering, a Bob-Omb spawns near where Link is standing. Without any obstacles (ie. other players), Link is free to pick up the Bob-Omb and chuck it at Mario, resulting in a KO.
Now, how is that fair? Since Mario is off the stage, he is already disadvantaged - instead of attacking, he has to recover to prevent losing a point. Link, who already has the advantage, gets a further advantage with the Bob-Omb, which makes it easier for him to KO Mario without endangering his own life. The Bob-Omb can be replaced by any item - Beam Sword, Ray Gun, Smash Ball - and the effect is the same.


I believe that competitive-level Smash is a test of skill. You have to take any and all options at your disposal - standards, specials and grabs, techniques, mindgames - and use them effectively to prevail against your opponent. Certainly, items can be included as an option at your disposal, but the unfair advantage created by some items (or scenarios like the one described above, which are extremely common) does not reflect the true skill of either player. THAT's a fact.

EDIT: Why does anyone care anyways? Smash is meant to be played as you want it. If you want to play with items on, what's stopping you? If someone wants to play Fox only, no items, Final Destination, why should you stop them? That's just hypocrisy.

 

[FS Fantom]

Items are fun...but have no place in a competition testing skills.

This has been said so many times it's painful. Why do people who have no interest in playing in tournaments have to argue about something they don't care about?

 

[ROOOOY!]

Shouldn't a REAL pro be able to, you know, adapt to the random elements instead of just bypassing them?

Dear God, I've actually been thinking this for such a long time.
The only problem with that is, if a bomb lands right near you, then it's got the opportunity to screw someone's game up unfairly.

And to be honest, Mr Saturn is just too sexy to be banned.

 

[-Linko-]

Let's just forget that random bob-ombs spawning on anyone's head can be banned, explosive containers such as explosive capsules can also be banned. Let's forget that broken items like mushrooms, hammers or stars can be banned. Let's forget that THAT is what the OP is proposing, and just flame him.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

you cant turn off explosive capsules and barrels. on another note, im starting to like kniht more and more. he is a new user that doesnt make stupid posts and he has the best sig ever.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

you cant turn off explosive capsules and barrels.

Uhh, yes you can. In Brawl, explosive barrels are marked with a Fire symbol, and can be turned off. Crates, Barrels, Capsules, etc. can all be turned off in the Item Switch menu.

Which is exactly what OP is proposing. Stages have a Neutral-Counterpick-Ban setup, Items can as well. Bob-Omb spawning in the middle of a Fair is an issue? Then Bob-omb is one of the items on the Ban list. But perhaps things like Ray Gun, or Bumper are neutral enough that in a competitive setting can be used strategically to add depth to the game, so they would be allowed in regular matches. Then perhaps there are situational items that are in the middle ground, so they're counter-pick items, so 1-3 items from the counterpick list can be turned on to strategically help you against an opponent in a game..

 

[ZDAN]

No items.
Fox only.
Final Destination.

 

[What's The Point]

Bigger does not necessarily equal better. The competitive community would never sacrifice skill-importance for its membership count to grow.

But it often does.

More people adds a lot. More competition, more (Better) prizes, more attention (Covering/Business). All these lead to overall growth of the community.

And while the hardcores wouldn't want to "sacrifice skill-importance", including a few items does not change that much. People who expect to win will still expect to win and fillers still go to fill up and for atmosphere.

This all of course assumes that if you made standard (large) tourney rules include a few items, it will draw in more people (And not turn away more).

Proof Items don't belong in tournaments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_lkAN0TLBE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIdE7eg9cWU&feature=related

Those aren't actually that good of proof. In the first video, DSF just isn't good with items. Warpstar was easily avoided by moving left, but he was to busy spamming A in hopes of getting it (Even after Samus was on it).
Bomb-ob, he had the same opportunity HugS did. But DSF threw his early, HugS waited till he managed to knock DSF off the stage to use it when it would be much harder to avoid.

Second video, items were there beforehand, but DSF risked hitting them anyway.

you cant turn off explosive capsules and barrels

But you can turn capsules and barrels off completely, thus eliminating the exploding.


I don't think the main issue should be that items spawn randomly, but how big of an advantage a random item spawn can give. Assuming we get rid of the blatantly powerful or interfering items (Bombs), how good are the rest? Say the beam sword. Picking it up gives you some new (Potentially better) attacks, but removes your ability to grab. Items are of course best as projectiles, but it is much easier to catch items in Brawl (I have not played, so unable to confirm for myself).

Since we can eliminate random explosions during attacks, and ban anything considered game breaking, items should be given a chance. Problem is a chance is best given at large events to really prove anything, but most may not wish to risk a *****fest that could come.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Tournaments don't need items. They have tripping now.

 

[HugS]

Tournaments don't need items. They have tripping now.

LoL, I like you. You're funny.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

hahaha it's true. I dont understand why all these people come clamoring to these boards wanting items in tournaments. I'm betting they've never played in a real one anyway. If they want item tournaments, they should start their own.

 

[Chexr]

Items wont ever be on because THEY'RE NOT FUN. Sorry more people like them off.

 

[FalconPunch]

There was like no way to avoid 1:51 in that vid.

Edit: I literally said "The hell was that" at 2:02.

 

[180OP]

for some reason people are under the impression that all tourneys by default set the rules at no items 4 stock 8 mins.

by all means, if you want items organize your own tourney or join any existing ones. what prevents you?

personally, i can play any mode of smash. items or no items, whatever stage ...coins...i wouldn't mind joining a tourney with items regardless of money on the line or not. randomness makes games very intense because of unpredictability. it really gets the human heart racing. and thats the rush I love in playing games like Poker, rummy etc.

a tip is, if you have pros playing with items, you might wanna jack the stock up to 8-15.

my brother and I played with green shells + bob-ombb, motionsensor+scope i think and set it on VERY HIGH and it was just mayhem. stocks go down very fast and it is incorrect to say that items introduce so much randomness that its unpredictable which player, regardless of skill, will win. I consistently beat my bro in item games as compared to orthodox tourney rules where we are evenly matched. there is a lot of skill still involved with items because you have to learn to manipulate many situations differently than you would normally....grabbing items in midair being thrown at you....there is a lot of things involved. you also have to be very very alert.

it is something arrogant "elitists" i should say try. item play is not easy. it is a diff mindset.
some items are ***** though, like the hammer. im not fond of the red shell either.

I want to see PC Chris vs M2K in scope+greenshell+bobomb+motionsensor on vhigh Melee matches. it would strictly be mayhem because they are so skilled.

 

[Magnacor]

But items are still random, and in case you haven't noticed allof the community is not happy about tripping.

Fixed it for ya. Everyone does or will hate tripping.

By the way, everyone in this topic is saying how Bob-ombs will interrupt their combo's or the items are over powered, but the OP was talking about only a few items being banned. He took off Bob-ombs and a bunch of the broken items.

Now I don't particularly care for items and if I do use them I'll always turn the broken ones off. I definitely understand that they are luck based and can mean the difference between victory and defeat. However, there could (not should) be a few items that are turned on. Some items affect both players equally and should at least be tested for a while before offically banned. On my closing note, I'd like to say that there is no right or wrong way to play a game. I love playing on Temple with all hammers and Bob-ombs on high in super sudden death mode too, but some things just don't belong in tournaments. There's no need to flame the tourney players not having items on.

 

[wodan46]

The functional difference between this article and the countless other threads clamoring about items is that it is proposing that there should be a banlist for items, just as there is a banlist for stages.

THE MAIN POINT OF THE ARTICLE IS SIMPLE. ITEMS SHOULD HAVE A BANLIST, NOT OUTRIGHT BANNED.

Here are the items that I view as balanced, the rest should be removed:
Fan, Lip's Stick, Star Rod, Motion Sensor Bomb, Gooey Bomb, Smoke Ball, Pitfall, Hothead, Mr. Saturn, Banana Peel, Bumper, Unira, Soccer Ball, Spring

Can you honestly tell me that with the above list of items, with no containers available, on very low or low, that the game would suddenly become random? I think not.

 

[Rhubarbo]

If you could control the spawn point and how often items spawn, they might have been allowed. The Smash Ball at least should have had a feature where you could select it's spawn point and timer.

 

[Nicktendo]

Items dont belong in tournaments

 

[-Linko-]

No items.
Fox only.
Final Destination.

Nowadays, in Brawl, it is:

No items.
GC-Controller only.
MetaKnight only.
Battlefield.

Proof:
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=6gdtsNZQSrg

 

[Shine-Fu]

The functional difference between this article and the countless other threads clamoring about items is that it is proposing that there should be a banlist for items, just as there is a banlist for stages.

THE MAIN POINT OF THE ARTICLE IS SIMPLE. ITEMS SHOULD HAVE A BANLIST, NOT OUTRIGHT BANNED.

Here are the items that I view as balanced, the rest should be removed:
Fan, Lip's Stick, Star Rod, Motion Sensor Bomb, Gooey Bomb, Smoke Ball, Pitfall, Hothead, Mr. Saturn, Banana Peel, Bumper, Unira, Soccer Ball, Spring

Can you honestly tell me that with the above list of items, with no containers available, on very low or low, that the game would suddenly become random? I think not.

Problem with the pitfall is that it acts like a spike when not on land, so if you are recovering and a pitfall spawns by me, i can grab it and spike you with it.

The same type of argument can be made for other items, but without the spike part. I'm falcon, you're fox. You knock me off, I'm recovering. right next to you, a fan spawns. now, you chuck the fan at me. OOPS! Gimped recovery!

 

[SiegKnight]

ahahaha at anyone thinking spiking a midair person with a thrown item is a good idea in brawl with the new air dodge mechanics. I guess it works if you bait someone into it, but if you can do that then theres strategy in it.

I like mookierahs posts and also ideas. I'd love the timer spawn thing. It'd own.

 

[Dark Sonic]

ahahaha at anyone thinking spiking a midair person with a thrown item is a good idea in brawl with the new air dodge mechanics. I guess it works if you bait someone into it, but if you can do that then theres strategy in it.

Or, you can just wait for them to up B?

 

[Mike87]

I honestly don't see why people who don't want anything to do with competitive play feel the need to criticize it so much. It's not like we are telling people that it's the only way to play, or that our way is more fun for everyone guaranteed. If you don't like it, that's fine. If you like it, great. If you want to change things, be a part of the community or host items tournaments.

Some people have disdain for the "Pro gamers" because some of them come off as smug *******s.
Think Tom Brady but without the hot models he bones.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

Items wont ever be on because THEY'RE NOT FUN. Sorry more people like them off.

Is this guy trolling? Does Smashboards have trolls like this?

 

[DonkeyPirate]

nah I think he is just sick of all the new users clamoring for reform. The no items rule has been put in place for a reason. Items generally get in the way of advanced players. I'm still waiting for someone to do something to start their own item tournament because all I hear is complaining about something that has been in effect for a few years and is preferred.

 

[Nobie]

I had the idea of items being an option for counterpicking, similar to stages being used to counterpick.

First match would be a neutral no items match, as expected.

The second match, where the loser can pick counter stages, could also choose whether or not to turn items on, specifying which items to be turned on, within reason (so no hearts, stars, clovers, horsehoes or blue moons).

Thus, while items are random, it was a conscious decision by a player to activate them, not that far off from, say, choosing to throw around Judgment with Game & Watch.

So if most players do not prefer to play with items, then this isn't a problem. Even when counterpicking, they'll ignore it. But it would leave the option open. And hell, sometimes it would even backfire against the player who chooses to allow certain items in.

 

[Tanzz]

What a stupid thread. No items on ever.

Spoiler

The message I have entered is too short, so I'm going to type some characters to make sure there's at least 10.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

The no items rule has been put in place for a reason.

The "no item" rule was put there for a reason, in Melee. This is Brawl, which has new items, new physics, new dodging mechanics, a revamped item switch which allows you to turn off exploding barrels/capsules, and a new game in general that should start with a clean slate, not immediately adopting what was standard for Melee

You knock me off, I'm recovering. right next to you, a fan spawns. now, you chuck the fan at me. OOPS! Gimped recovery!

Uhh, getting hit with the Fan sends you upwards, as in it would help your recovery, and you would be able to use your Up-B after getting hit with it. Also the fact that Brawl's dodging mechanics allow you to dodge in mid-air and continue whatever momentum you had previously, so mid-air dodging the fan while recovering would be the smart thing to do, and it wouldn't cost you anything to do it.

In Melee, yeah, you wouldn't be able to dodge the item without gimping your recovery, luckily Brawl works different than Melee, eh?

 

[Senshuu]

I understand why tourneys keep the items off. Ultimately you can't justify any of them with the tournament mentality. Everything gives the player an edge (such as the fan, an AMAZING game-altering device).

I'd still say some items could be worked in, but tourneys will stay the way they are.

 

[KernelColonel]

AW MY GOD THIS THREAD IS MADE OF FAIL

If at any point in time an item spawns in a place where one player can grab it and the other can do NOTHING about it...

It is an unfair advantage. Mr Saturn, Fan, Smoke Bomb, it is unfair. Unfair. Unfair. There is no skill involved in having an item appear closer to you than someone else.

AND GUESS WHAT, none of you item-lovers will ever change that because you all know it's true. If there is something that even slightly could change the outcome of a match by 0.1%, then competitions will do everything in their power to eliminate it. Items have hence been the victims thus far.

In any case, I don't find items fun anyways, so I just don't play with them on.

 

[Sculelos]

I like playing both ways, but in Tournament play going without items is probably best. Either way the game takes a lot of skill to play well.

 

[Losnar]

OP knows what's up!

No items is ghey, but specific item bans is streyt.

 

[P.E]

Is it just me or is it nearly impossible to get free from a fan? (except when Zamus gets on, cause she moving around quite a lot while hitting).

 

[Yuna]

The "no item" rule was put there for a reason, in Melee. This is Brawl, which has new items, new physics, new dodging mechanics, a revamped item switch which allows you to turn off exploding barrels/capsules, and a new game in general that should start with a clean slate, not immediately adopting what was standard for Melee

None of this changes the fact that items are random. And nothing you ever say or do will change it either.

Competitive gaming tries to eliminate randomness wherever it can. Ask any Competitive fighter (Smasher or not). Suggest introducing the equivalent of items and Smash Balls to Guilty Gear Accent Core and prepare to get run out of town. Why is Smash so different? Because it's "more fun with items"?

This is Competitive gaming, we don't maximize fun at the expense of skill.

Uhh, getting hit with the Fan sends you upwards, as in it would help your recovery, and you would be able to use your Up-B after getting hit with it. Also the fact that Brawl's dodging mechanics allow you to dodge in mid-air and continue whatever momentum you had previously, so mid-air dodging the fan while recovering would be the smart thing to do, and it wouldn't cost you anything to do it.

You lose altitude. That can be enough to not recover. Also, nothing's stopping your opponent from chucking the fan and jumping after you to edgeguard you, still.

And just because he used the wrong item does not mean his premise wrong. Super scope spawns, he gets you with it, lots of free damage.

Mr. Saturn now destroys the shield on one hit. Your opponent got Mr. Saturn. He's essentially got an unblockable item. Either you take the hit and stun (and subsequent combo) or your shield breaks (or you manage to dodge or catch it).

And nothing changes the fact that items are still random.

In Melee, yeah, you wouldn't be able to dodge the item without gimping your recovery, luckily Brawl works different than Melee, eh?

In Melee, items were random. In Brawl, items still are random. Change that somehow and then we'll talk.

 

[A2xA]

I agree that smashballs are okay, the only problem is that if we check everything off except smashballs then they appear too often. Even on low they will come at least 3 times per match because it's the only item that can spawn. No items is the only solution.

 

[LordLocke]

None of this changes the fact that items are random. And nothing you ever say or do will change it either.

Competitive gaming tries to eliminate randomness wherever it can. Ask any Competitive fighter (Smasher or not). Suggest introducing the equivalent of items and Smash Balls to Guilty Gear Accent Core and prepare to get run out of town. Why is Smash so different? Because it's "more fun with items"?

Faust says hi.

(Seriously, of all the fighting games in the world to use as argument for anti-random, Guilty Gear's got to be among the worst. It literally has a character built around Random with Zappa and still manages to work as a competitive game.)

That said, I'm for giving items a try. Half the reason why a number of stages have to be banned in the camping scenario that gets ripped apart by items on. There's more ways to deal with them then ever before (Changed air-dodge mechanics, easier item catching ground or air) and the worst of them (auto-activators and contact exploders, mostly) can be turned off. It adds a new element to space control, and it rewards aggressive play by giving players asserting their positioning a better shot at items. (Item spawns when you're stuck off the cliff? Them's the breaks for letting yourself get put into the situation where the opponent controls the level.)

I keep hearing gloom and doom about Brawl- how it's going to be a lot more defensive of a game. How tripping is going to ruin approaches. About how perfect shielding is going to ruin all but the fastest/safest approaches. I'm not saying items are the cure for what ails you, but with the new game comes a new metagame, and items might add more to it then detract this time around, especially to put a little more oomph back into the attack.

 

[Yuna]

Faust says hi.

(Seriously, of all the fighting games in the world to use as argument for anti-random, Guilty Gear's got to be among the worst. It literally has a character built around Random with Zappa and still manages to work as a competitive game.)

Because the randomness with Zappa and Faust are balanced, just like Mr. Game & Watch's hammer, Luigi's Missile and Peach's turnips. The random elements in themselves will not actually reward someone for doing nothing but getting lucky. It's also not possible to prevent said random things from occuring.

Imagine if we did this with Guilty Gear:
Every 20 seconds (because of the shorter time), an item will randomly spawn on a random spot in the stage. It will float around. It takes 6 hits to open (because GG has more rapid hits, especially on hit). Eddie gets a 1 Hit KO move with it, May gets a measly dolphin which takes forever to initiate and will never hit because it's easily dodged.

The effects of obtaining said item differs greatly from person to person. Some suck, other are just broken.

Suggest this to a GG-player.

Mr. Game & Watch's hammer can be avoided, Peach's turnips, bombs and Beam-sword (and Mr. Saturns) can be powershielded and even caught. Luigi's Missile doesn't even KO.

Meanwhile, you can at any random time have a random item spawn that will turn the tide and the opponent won't be able to do anything about it. Especially when it comes to Final Smashes that are inherently broken and imbalanced.

 

[MrSilver]

You know what, I'm actually with the casuals on this one. I think just outright turning items off from the start without actually looking at it seriously is an ignorant thing to do. Especially since it seems the biggest reason for turning items of in Melee can be switched of now (exploding boxes/capsules).

Now, I'm not saying items have to be on, I'm saying that it should be carefully considered and preferably tried in tournaments before we make such a decision. There are many good arguments you can make for items from a competitive point of view. Obviously using them takes skill, be it wielding them or using them as a projectile. But even their random spawning has beneficial effects like rewarding stage control and punishing stalling.

Overall I really don't see any reason against items that clearly overshadows their benefits, so I think it's much to early to really make a good call on it.

As for Smashballs, like the rest of the items I think these need to be considered and tried before we rule them out. And even if they do turn out to be unfit for tournament that's not an argument to turn items of all together, it's just an argument for turning Smashballs of specifically.