Items should have banlists rather than outright banned in tournaments

[MorpheusVGX]

MorpheusVGX, you know nothing, you understand nothing. The majority of your arguments have been done to death and already refuted. The fact that you value "drama" and "fun" over skill makes it entirely obvious you don't even play Smash competitively. So why do you even care what the Competitive scene does?

Your post is inflammatory because you call us elitists, sore losers, etc.

Come up with a good counter-argument to the randomness-argument.

Ok, I've not said that all of you are. But I see these many reasons for wanting to ban items, and I just hate that. Randomness can be solved with time. A long battle (let's say 5 stock) can solve this.

Also, I do play smash competitively, always. Otherwise is boring. I play to overcome the best. But to me items just make the challenge greater.

I am proposing a new type of tournament, so don't just come flaming at me as you seem to do with anyone that defends items. Don't be so mind closed.

 

[Yuna]

Ok, I've not said that all of you are. But I see these many reasons for wanting to ban items, and I just hate that. Randomness can be solved with time. A long battle (let's say 5 stock) can solve this.

You used the term "many". I take great offense to this on behalf of the competitive Smash community.

The longer a match goes, the greater the chance a lucky item drop will dedice the outcome. It also doesn't matter much if the skill gap is small. If two equally skilled players play, they can be really even, but then a lucky item spawn turns the tide and wins it either immediately or eventually for one side due to sheer dumb luck.

We don't like that, we don't want that and until you find a solution to it, then please stop arguing that items should be turned on in normal tournaments or claiming we're sore losers for not wanting to lose due to lucky item spawns.

Also, I do play smash competitively, always. Otherwise is boring. I play to overcome the best. But to me items just make the challenge greater.

Umm.... yeah.

I am proposing a new type of tournament, so don't just come flaming at me as you seem to do with anyone that defends items. Don't be so mind closed.

By all means. I have often advocated that those who want items on should host their own tournaments, I've done so in this very thread (I believe).

Just don't talk badly about Competitive players for not wanting them on or nag us to turn them on.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

morpheus, you couldn't be more wrong about anything. there is virtually no skill involved in using items. pick up, use. Removing items is what helps people grow as a player because they actually have to learn to fight and properly use their character. I'm pretty sure any competitive player can beat an "item using" player in an item match.

Are you saying that I am all wrong? What you say does not have sense at all! Pick? use? That just shows that you are a BAD item user. That just happen when you do not integrate items into your play and your skills become limited. Item throwing, pokemon strategies, bomb use, guns use, they can all be used with skill and tactics. You probably don't do so. That's all.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

not really. pretty much every item is just pick up and drop. I can probably beat you using exclusively items and not throwing a single attack. Yeah I used to use items, until I got good enough at the game to where they just got in the way.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

We don't like that, we don't want that and until you find a solution to it, then please stop arguing that items should be turned on in normal tournaments or claiming we're sore losers for not wanting to lose due to lucky item spawns.


Just don't talk badly about Competitive players for not wanting them on or nag us to turn them on.

What the hell are you talking about?! You are not even reading me properly!! I've not said that!

Ok, the longer the battle, the more random items will appear. Ok, but I am talking about having the guts and skills to use an avoid items properly. So, in the end, the player that can survive and do more damage with items and take less damage from them should win.

not really. pretty much every item is just pick up and drop. I can probably beat you using exclusively items and not throwing a single attack. Yeah I used to use items, until I got good enough at the game to where they just got in the way.

Hmmm... , See? You just think you are good becuase you don't use them. And you think you can win over me so easily. Pick up an drop... Sure.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

we here at SWF have heard your statements and have decided to deliberate on what items can be used in tournaments. After careful consideration, we have decided on the following list of items to be put on the ban list.

Banlist

 

[Yuna]

Trust me, I've played with items... a lot. Because I know a lot of Casual players. I also play Peach so I can actually pull items on my item.

I know how they work, I know how to play with them. They are random, the majority are too broken to be allowed in tournaments, they imbalance the game depending on which character picks them and, oh, did I mention how they are random?

With money on the line, we want to measure skill. The most skilled player should always win unless he screws up. Items are random and based on luck. Sure, there's skill to be found in using items, but they're still random.

The cost is just too great. A close game be decided by items. Heck, a game where one side is obviously winning can be decided by items... due to luck and luck alone. For this reason, items are out.

We don't want them, Morpheus. You apparently want them, fine, go host your own tournaments and stop insulting us for not using items. I don't call you names for using them. What gives you the right to generalize and insult my fellow peers?

 

[superduper]

This whole game is made out of randomness. If you want a "skillz" game you should probably be playing Virtua Fighter or something.

Plus, some items seem quite harmless. Mr. Saturn would veeery much unbalance the game. eh? Besides, even withou items, there's items. Link throws bombs. Peach pulls turnips. Wario rides a motorcycle. Dedede summons minions. So the whole abomination towards any kind of item just seems very dumb to my understanding.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

This whole game is made out of randomness. If you want a "skillz" game you should probably be playing Virtua Fighter or something.

Plus, some items seem quite harmless. Mr. Saturn would veeery much unbalance the game. eh? Besides, even withou items, there's items. Link throws bombs. Peach pulls turnips. Wario rides a motorcycle. Dedede summons minions. So the whole abomination towards any kind of item just seems very dumb to my understanding.

If saturn is so harmless then why not just leave him out. trust me, smash tourneys have been around since 2001 and that is a LOT of time to refine the tournament scene to make it more about skill than "the randomness this whole game is made out of" see also, projectiles are not the same thing as items. even if they can be caught.

 

[Pi]

Let me give you 2 scenario's:

First scenario :

5 stock item match, items on medium:

Player A vs. Player B.

Player A gets lucky throughout the whole match with items, having them spawn near him and getting most of them in the match.

Player B loses, mostly due to Player A getting lucky with item spawns.



Scenario 2:

Player A vs. Player B. NO items.

Player A and Player B test their skills out and Player B out-plays Player A.



Tell me, in which scenario do you think both players will be the most happy at the end of the match? You think Player B is gonna say 'Good game' to Player A in the first scenario and actually mean it, when he knows full well that the outcome could have been drastically different if Player A didn't get so lucky?

How bout in Scenario 2, both players came to the game with equal ground, and it was equal ground throughout the whole fight, Player B out-played Player A, and they both know it. They both had fun testing their skills with no John's to speak of.


This is a tournament setting, folks, with real money having been spent and real money at stake here.

Tournaments eliminate Johns as much as possible. This creates a funner more skill based environment for people to compete in. It has people going home knowing that the only reason they didn't win is because they are not the best.


I don't think you guys realize how much drama items would cause in the smash community! You seem to think that everyone shares your mindset, when your mindset is that nobody cares about losing real money they spent to test skills.


What is your deal with tournaments! You don't even attend them, and you don't seem to think about what a tournament really is!

Items don't require skill to use, man, they require mindgames at most. 'Am I gonna throw it, or aren't I?'. That's it. Whoever is closer to the item gets the item. You're giving items way too much credit, they're not hard to use, they are not complex and they don't require skill.

And any minuscule amount of depth they add to the game is no where near worth the side effects of their inclusion to competitive tournaments. The side effects being a lot of *****ing and moaning about why someone won a match.


Tournaments can be in place for two reasons:
To win money.
To determine who's the most skilled.

If you eliminate items, these two go hand in hand. Isn't that only fair?

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Trust me, I've played with items... a lot. Because I know a lot of Casual players. I also play Peach so I can actually pull items on my item.

I know how they work, I know how to play with them. They are random, the majority are too broken to be allowed in tournaments, they imbalance the game depending on which character picks them and, oh, did I mention how they are random?

With money on the line, we want to measure skill. The most skilled player should always win unless he screws up. Items are random and based on luck. Sure, there's skill to be found in using items, but they're still random.

The cost is just too great. A close game be decided by items. Heck, a game where one side is obviously winning can be decided by items... due to luck and luck alone. For this reason, items are out.

We don't want them, Morpheus. You apparently want them, fine, go host your own tournaments and stop insulting us for not using items. I don't call you names for using them. What gives you the right to generalize and insult my fellow peers?

Just go and read my post again. I've not generlized. I said "some elitists" and then, "many are just". Also, I never said you should turn items on , on your tourneys. This is proof you are so close minded that you don't listen to others very well. Stop putting words in my mouth I have not said.

I understand your point. What I am doing is giving reasons to support another kind of tournament.

You are so closed up to your own reasons that you do not listen to mine. I understand your point and I respect it. Those tournament shall continue existing. But there are people that sees the competitive scene differently. People that think that the best Smash player is not that, but something close to what I say. I am no talking about changing but about expanding. I will find the people to do so.

To me, and try understand this. Taking a game like Smash with a lot of items, stages, final smashes, assist trophies, and 4 player capabilities and cuttting it down to a game 1 vs 1 with any of that is a pity. It is sad. To me, that is not the best Smash Player. If he can win in a 1 vs 1 match but cannot handle the randomness of items, stages, and the chaos of a 4 player battle, he is not so good to me. Because that is what smash is about. This is not street fighter , or tekken. This is Super Smash Bros Brawl.

 

[Agosta44]

My favorite thing to see is casuals trying to change the competitive scene, even though they don't participate. The even better thing is that they think they can beat pros with items on. No. You won't. Ever. Pros know plenty about items as well. They would *** ream you 50 times over.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

knihT is my hero. I need to get your friend code so we can play when brawl comes out.

 

[Yuna]

Just go and read my post again. I've not generlized. I said "some elitists" and then, "many are just". Also, I never said you should turn items on , on your tourneys. This is proof you are so close minded that you don't listen to others very well. Stop putting words in my mouth I have not said.

I understand your point. What I am doing is giving reasons to support another kind of tournament.

It's not close-mindedness, it's tiredness. While you might not have said that many of us are like that, many have... in fact, in this very thread. I'm so sick and tired of it, I misread your post.

Why even make 4 points to whine about a very small number of people since it's apparently your position that the "elitists" who john about items are very few. Since you took the time to write down so much to whine about them, I assumed you were implying they are many.

No one's anti-supportive of item tournaments. No one's going to stomp in there and tell you to stop hosting them. Host your own, get someone else to host them. We don't care. We might show up, we might not.

 

[superduper]

With money on the line, we want to measure skill.

That's the lamest excuse EVER. Take poker for instance. One of the top games where money is applied. A game that relies a LOT on skill. Yet the random factor is always present.

Contrary to popular belief, randomness helps balance the game. It helps keep things at an unexpected level. Without them, it's kinda like just comparing numbers. A true player shouldn't let randomness be an excuse for him losing. It's part of the game and only requires even more skill from the players.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

seriously Yuna, someone has even made a thread about starting an item tournament league. I just dont understand why people are still trying to change non-item tourney rules.

and super, why does everyone try to play the poker card. it should be more compared to sports. how would it be if in baseball, every now and then people just threw rocks at the players.

 

[RedMage8BT]

After all, luck favors the backbone, not the wishbone.

 

[Yuna]

That's the lamest excuse EVER. Take poker for instance. One of the top games where money is applied. A game that relies a LOT on skill. Yet the random factor is always present.

Contrary to popular belief, randomness helps balance the game. It helps keep things at an unexpected level. Without them, it's kinda like just comparing numbers. A true player shouldn't let randomness be an excuse for him losing. It's part of the game and only requires even more skill from the players.

POKER IS NOT FRIGGIN' SMASH! You know what Chess is?! Chess is so limited the only way to win is to outsmart your opponent and hope for mistakes! Draws happen very frequently in Chess among the pros because of this.

Does this mean Smash has to be like this? No.

Poker is Poker. Chess is Chess. Smash is Smash. They are completely different things! Soccer is a sport! Would you like it if in soccer people threw banana peels and baseball bats in randomly for the players to use? Karate is a sport, how about random knives? Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike is a fighting game. At random times, players will randomly gain the ability to do 3 times as much damage!

This is this and that is that! In competitive videogames, if we can limit luck and/or emphasize skill, then we will.

Randomness does not "balance" the game. Randomness makes the game, gasp, more random! It's a valid excuse if Ken is playing Azen and Ken is leading, yet a lucky item drop turns the game around and Azen wins it. Because of randomness cannot be predicted or avoided!

seriously Yuna, someone has even made a thread about starting an item tournament league. I just dont understand why people are still trying to change non-item tourney rules.

and super, why does everyone try to play the poker card. it should be more compared to sports. how would it be if in baseball, every now and then people just threw rocks at the players.

Some of them don't want to start their own tournaments, they want to change the rest of the world because "we play the game the wrong way".

 

[Pi]

@DonkeyPirate:
Sure thing ^^

Also; Lol @ yours and Yuna's analogies.


@wodan46
So you honestly believe that Sakurai designed the characters around items? Well then, do you also believe that he only included the same items that you did? Or perhaps he designed the whole game to be played with All items on Medium, all stages. Maybe then he also included Dedede's chaingrab, to balance the character out. Falco's infinite laser to balance him out as well.

Let's step back to melee as well, Perhaps fox wasn't good enough, so he added shine dashing to balance him out, probably put ice climbers wobble in there too.


The point I'm trying to make here is nobody can say for sure why characters and items were designed the way they were. Sakurai made mistakes while developing the game, and we all give him some slack for it because it's a good game in general. We ban certain moves from tournament settings just as we ban items from tournament settings.


Characters were not designed around the item aspect of the game, I'm almost sure of that. Ice-climbers are the only characters that handle items differently than the others.


There are so many features neglected from tournament play that are implemented in the game. Nobody is arguing for them;
All the special brawls
The stages we ban

Why doesn't anyone step up and argue for them? 'Tournaments should include all stages because no one is going to take advantage of walk off stages or stages with walls because everyone's perfect and money means nothing to them' 'Special brawls are part of the game! Why don't we have Giant flower headed stamina brawls! What's wrong with tiny lighting brawls?!'



The tournament rules are OUR take on the game, it's what we feel really tests the entrants skill and not their luck. It's why we put money on the line here, because when it comes right down to it, the way we do tournaments now is the best representation of who has the most mastery of their character.

We try to take out all the luck, all the abusive factors that can deviate from the test of skill. This is our way of doing things, it's not set in stone it's the style we've adapted to and agreed upon to test skill.

I'll say it again, if you don't like it then don't play that way. Make your own tournaments if you're dead set on attending.


Stop trying to change the way we do things, it's futile, this has been tested and proven to be the best judge of skill that we can possible create with the options at our disposal.


Oh, here's an idea; If sakurai really wanted us to play with items we wouldn't be able to turn them off.



The GOAL of OUR tournaments is to award the most skillful player. The player who has out-played all his oponents, the player who has tested his character's moves and found out what works and what doesn't work and puts what he knows to the test against other people who have done the same.

 

[Yuna]

knihT, the sad part if that all of that has already been said... again and again and again. Not all at once, but it's been said. "They" always conveniently ignore these things when they reply and then forget about them the next time they ardently argue for items in all tournaments.

 

[wodan46]

The randomness caused by relatively weak items is negligible. The scenario Yuna described simply won't occur more than once every 1000 games or so. The proper usage of items will be far more important then picking more of them up.

Most of the items I picked are not simple use and abuse items. With the exception of the ineffectual mr. Saturn that is hardly a threat, most of them are items that must be carefully deployed.

For example, explain to me how the Proximity Mine is a pick up and use item. Or how about the Spring. Or the Gooey Bomb. All of these require proper placement or they will have little effect.

Things like the Hothead and Unira are simple hazards that threaten both players, and the initial deployment is not the most important aspect of the move.

 

[Pi]

knihT, the sad part if that all of that has already been said... again and again and again. Not all at once, but it's been said. "They" always conveniently ignore these things when they reply and then forget about them the next time they ardently argue for items in all tournaments.

Yea...I know...it's the same on almost all issues argued on the internet. Personally I think this thread should have been locked by now. It's getting no where.

They don't even address the issues that we've presented. No one is saying that they shouldn't play with items, and they are ignoring why we choose not to play with items.

The randomness caused by relatively weak items is negligible. The scenario Yuna described simply won't occur more than once every 1000 games or so. The proper usage of items will be far more important then picking more of them up.

Most of the items I picked are not simple use and abuse items. With the exception of the ineffectual mr. Saturn that is hardly a threat, most of them are items that must be carefully deployed.

For example, explain to me how the Proximity Mine is a pick up and use item. Or how about the Spring. Or the Gooey Bomb. All of these require proper placement or they will have little effect.

Things like the Hothead and Unira are simple hazards that threaten both players, and the initial deployment is not the most important aspect of the move.

There are strategy's for items, but not many, and they will be figured out and used over and over again:

Proximity mine: Knock your opponent off the stage and place either right below the ledge, or near the ledge. Thus limiting your opponents recovery options allowing you to pick the one they will use and punish him for it.

The spring: Err...all it does is bounce you yea? It's like that guy said, it doesn't have big enough effect to really determine the outcome of the match but once in a hundred games or so, and thus it doesn't need to be included.

Gooey bomb: How about when your opponent misses a tech you wait to see what he does and stick him with it. Then you proceed to run away from him until he goes Boom.


Tournaments that don't use items are tests of a players skill in a controlled environment. It's like a scientific experiment (lol), we eliminate as many variables as we can and come out with a good measure of skill.

 

[Dark Sonic]

That's the lamest excuse EVER. Take poker for instance. One of the top games where money is applied. A game that relies a LOT on skill. Yet the random factor is always present.

Contrary to popular belief, randomness helps balance the game. It helps keep things at an unexpected level. Without them, it's kinda like just comparing numbers. A true player shouldn't let randomness be an excuse for him losing. It's part of the game and only requires even more skill from the players.

No, randomness does not balance the game.

Even in Poker players try to minimize randomness as much as possible. They play the odds because they can't get rid of them.

Every single competative game minimizes randomness, because they really do strive to have the best player win. In poker, they do this by having a lot of rounds, so that hopefully the better player will win more.

Randomness requires a player to overcome an advantage that they shouldn't have to in the first place. Yes, it does take skill to use and avoid items. But that's not the point. The point is that an advantage was just randomly given to a player, and it could determine the outcome of the match. Even if only 1/20 matches are truely determined by items, that number is still to big considering how many matches large scale tournaments have. They are also only double elimination, which means that you can actually be knocked out of the tournament if you were unlucky at least one time (assuming you also lost to someone who was clearly better than you). We don't find that fair. We banned items because they're random, and because we can. Randomness can be tolerable, but it is never preferable in a competative setting, because it detracts from players having controll of the match.

In trading card games, the best decks run the maximum number of vital and search cards, while running the minimum number of total cards. Do you know why? Because even though the nature of the game is random, they've figured out that minimizing randomness is always the best option. It allows the maximum amount of strategy because it allows the maximum amount of predictability on their side. They make their chances of drawing certain cards as high as possible in order to make strategies and matches more consistant. They get rid of as much randomness as possible. That is exactly what we're doing.

The tournament scene will not change until there is substantial evidence to suggest it to. We will not test items again, because the spawning system (which is what got them banned) has not changed, and testing again will lead to the same result.

Doing the same thing under the same circumstances and expecting a different result is, by definition, insanity. Why wait for two more years of testing when we already have a system that has proven itself?

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

Is this a common thing for Yuna to do? He/she basically swooped into this nearly dead thread and posted his/her opinions in a big rant and an elitist, condescending manner. The way Yuna posts just begs people to respond, and then he/she writes another rant in response to every single person who referenced his/her post, thus keeping the thread alive forever.

 

[Yuna]

The randomness caused by relatively weak items is negligible. The scenario Yuna described simply won't occur more than once every 1000 games or so. The proper usage of items will be far more important then picking more of them up.

Most of the items I picked are not simple use and abuse items. With the exception of the ineffectual mr. Saturn that is hardly a threat, most of them are items that must be carefully deployed.

For example, explain to me how the Proximity Mine is a pick up and use item. Or how about the Spring. Or the Gooey Bomb. All of these require proper placement or they will have little effect.

Things like the Hothead and Unira are simple hazards that threaten both players, and the initial deployment is not the most important aspect of the move.

Why even have items on if we can only have items that are pretty much useless and cannot in any way turn the tide of a game (which would limit the items to, like, 4)?

It does not matter if you're good with items if they spawn in the wrong places at the wrong times (and the rights one for your opponent). This scenario does not occur once in every 1000 games! It occurs far more frequently than that!

All items must be used with care. Doesn't mean they aren't good if used right! We're talking about theory fighter, Azen vs. Ken, not Casual #4562 vs. Casual #7742! If Azen and Ken were playing and an item spawned, trust me, that item could very well decide the outcome of the game... based on mostly luck and randomness!

You can combo people into deployed items!

And the mere fact that one out of every 50 (I too can make up arbitrary numbers) or so games will be decided by a lucky item spawn disqualifies items. If it can happen, it will happen. Somewhere along the line, the odds are that a major tournament will be decided by a lucky item spawn. And that is not OK.

It's not even OK if a lucky item spawn decides the outcome of a pool set or a DE set early on in the DE! It's unacceptable to introduce randomness into competitive gaming, even if it'd be "more fun". You do not play games competitively. You obviously don't know the mindset, rules and reasons we do what we do. Stop trying to change our community!

You have your own community. Either join us and conform to our rules or stay with your community and keep playing according to your rules. Each community creates its own rules. We don't insult you for choosing to play the way you do. Don't insult us. We don't try to change you. Stop trying to change us.

And stop ignoring perfectly valid arguments and coming back with inane ones. Read knihT's long post!

 

[Yuna]

Is this a common thing for Yuna to do? He/she basically swooped into this nearly dead thread and posted his/her opinions in a big rant and an elitist, condescending manner. The way Yuna posts just begs people to respond, and then he/she writes another rant in response to every single person who referenced his/her post, thus keeping the thread alive forever.

It was dead? Then how come it was on the first page for days?

 

[Pi]

Is this a common thing for Yuna to do? He/she basically swooped into this nearly dead thread and posted his/her opinions in a big rant and an elitist, condescending manner. The way Yuna posts just begs people to respond, and then he/she writes another rant in response to every single person who referenced his/her post, thus keeping the thread alive forever.

You're quite hypocritical there. Not to mention completely off base.


Nobody is forced to respond to anyone, you act as if they are. Yuna and every member of this board is (in some cases unfortunately) entitled to his or her own opinion.


If you are all out of new things to argue against, which I can assume you are because you've resorted to insulting people, then you really don't need to post do you?


And what elitist, condescending manner are you talking about? If you had been keeping track of this thread everything Yuna has said in a calm manner has conveniently been ignored by those arguing for items.


What their argument has deteriorated too is repeating the same thing over and over again. Which people have continually disproved and spoken out against.

We're not saying they are playing wrong, we're saying that our tournaments are done the way they are for a reason. The reason (which has been stated countless times) being that we are out to find the best way to test the skill of the competitors.


This thread should have been done/closed a long time ago. It has been argued in many other threads, and has been re-stated many times in this thread alone.

The fact is that people do things different, but they can't seem to accept that. There is nothing wrong with how we do things, and there is nothing wrong with how they do things. There is something wrong when each side tries to change the other side without fully understanding the reasons the other side does things their way.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

this is seriously the most frustrating thread ever. I know for a fact that most of these item users will still probably never play in a tournament.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

That's the lamest excuse EVER. Take poker for instance. One of the top games where money is applied. A game that relies a LOT on skill. Yet the random factor is always present.

Contrary to popular belief, randomness helps balance the game. It helps keep things at an unexpected level. Without them, it's kinda like just comparing numbers. A true player shouldn't let randomness be an excuse for him losing. It's part of the game and only requires even more skill from the players.

Well said. I needed some backup

Yeap. I am studying game development . And something important in game theory is that always a loosing character can suddenly win . (Drama) Or let's say, that he may still have a chance. So that scares you? So you are scared he gets a maxim tomato? Well then, kill him quickly .

 

[Yuna]

Stuff

Can you make a new thread where we're featured (or rather our mains) with text "We're gay for each other"? Because, really, I need more users like you around to help me strike down users who refuse to acknowledge they have no basis for what they're saying.

 

[pyrotek7x7]

Many have tried this and failed.

It just won't happen. Give up.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Tournaments eliminate Johns as much as possible

I don't think all those guys out there named John appreciate the h8.8, Gaming Pal.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

POKER IS NOT FRIGGIN' SMASH! You know what Chess is?! Chess is so limited the only way to win is to outsmart your opponent and hope for mistakes! Draws happen very frequently in Chess among the pros because of this.

Does this mean Smash has to be like this? No.

Poker is Poker. Chess is Chess. Smash is Smash. They are completely different things! Soccer is a sport! Would you like it if in soccer people threw banana peels and baseball bats in randomly for the players to use? Karate is a sport, how about random knives? Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike is a fighting game. At random times, players will randomly gain the ability to do 3 times as much damage!

This is this and that is that! In competitive videogames, if we can limit luck and/or emphasize skill, then we will.

Randomness does not "balance" the game. Randomness makes the game, gasp, more random! It's a valid excuse if Ken is playing Azen and Ken is leading, yet a lucky item drop turns the game around and Azen wins it. Because of randomness cannot be predicted or avoided!


Some of them don't want to start their own tournaments, they want to change the rest of the world because "we play the game the wrong way".

Well then, THIS IS FREAKING SMASH!! A 4 PLAYER FIGHTING GAME WITH ITEMS, POKEMONS, ASSIST TROPHIES, FINAL SMASHES AND A CERTAIN RANDOM FACTOR!! And you want to cut it down to nothingness. You want to transform it into Street Fighter and say that that is competitive and skillful.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

Well then, THIS IS FREAKING SMASH!! A 4 PLAYER FIGHTING GAME WITH ITEMS, POKEMONS, ASSIST TROPHIES AND FINAL SMASHES AND A CERTAIN RANDOM FACTOR!! And you want to cut it down to nothingness. Don't you see it with your own logic??

you forgot to include THE OPTION TO TURN THEM OFF!!! I like yelling

 

[shadydentist]

That's the lamest excuse EVER. Take poker for instance. One of the top games where money is applied. A game that relies a LOT on skill. Yet the random factor is always present.

Contrary to popular belief, randomness helps balance the game. It helps keep things at an unexpected level. Without them, it's kinda like just comparing numbers. A true player shouldn't let randomness be an excuse for him losing. It's part of the game and only requires even more skill from the players.

Invalid. Poker uses randomness over the course of dozens of hands to determine who is the most skillful, because it occurs over long enough timescale. Its like throwing grass into the air to determine which way the wind is blowing: Individual results may be very random, but the overall trend is very informative.

Smash, however, is different. With only three stocks, a random setback changes from an expected occurrence to a crippling handicap. There is not enough time for the randomness to sort itself out.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Why did you not respond to my post MorpheusVGX?

BTW, I already countered that Poker analogy, if you bothered to read what I posted.


Also, the option to turn items off was also intentionally put into the game. Do you want to know how the game was meant to be played? ANY WAY WE WANT. Guess what we want in a tournament! We want NO RANDOMNESS. We strive towards that goal. All competative games strive towards that goal, but some random things simply aren't removable. Guess what... ITEMS ARE!

It's a great thing that we were given this option to turn items off if we didn't want to use them isn't it.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

I agree with shady dentist. how can people not comprehend this?

 

[shadydentist]

@sonic wave,

That you did. I just liked my grass analogy too much to pass it up.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Invalid. Poker uses randomness over the course of dozens of hands to determine who is the most skillful, because it occurs over long enough timescale. Its like throwing grass into the air to determine which way the wind is blowing: Individual results may be very random, but the overall trend is very informative.

Smash, however, is different. With only three stocks, a random setback changes from an expected occurrence to a crippling handicap. There is not enough time for the randomness to sort itself out.

Nice point. What about a 5 stock match. Considering that in Brawl you can handle a little more damage than in Melee.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Nice point. What about a 5 stock match. Considering that in Brawl you can handle a little more damage than in Melee.

Then the tournament takes too long to finish. You're forgetting just how many matches a double elimination tournament has to go through. We actually reduced it to three stock in brawl, specifically because matches were taking too long, and in a large scale tournament 4 stock would not be feasible.