Items should have banlists rather than outright banned in tournaments

[wodan46]

Here's a sample Banlist. If tournaments have banlists for stages, why not for items as well, rather than banning them outright?

Basic Items
Lip's Stick, Smoke Ball, Gooey Bomb, Mr. Saturn, Banana Peel, Bumper, Spring

Counterpick Items (Counterpick player can turn any of them on)
Fire Flower, Star Rod, Fan, Motion Sensor Bomb, Pitfall, Hothead, Unira, Soccer Ball, and MAYBE Smash Ball

Banned Items
Assist Trophy, Pokeball, Exploding Containers of any Type, Party Balls, Blast Box, Sandbag, Food, Maxim Tomato, Heart Container, Dragoon Parts Super Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, Warp Star, Starman, Metal Box, Bunny Hood, Superspicy Curry, Timer, Lightning, Beam Sword, Home Run Bat, Hammer, Golden Hammer Super Scope, Ray Gun, Cracker Launcher, Bob-omb, Smart Bomb, Deku Nut, Freezie, Green Shell, Team Healer, Franklin Badge, Screw Attack.

At Very Low, items such as those above will allow for more opportunities for attack without dominating the game or giving players an unfair edge just by being closer to them. The wielded weapons require you to use them in combat, and can be countered or stolen, while the other weapons can be used by your enemies, can hurt you, or both.

Plus, with these in, you could have smash balls in tournaments without them appearing in excess. Given that smash balls are difficult to get, that characters can be attacked easily when trying for them or have them knocked out after getting them, and that characters with weak FSs are better at getting them, smash balls are balanced and fun so long as they don't appear too much.

 

[kr3wman]

Inb4

"Items are random and thus =/= Skills!"

 

[Yuna]

It's not just about balance. It's also about brokenness. Certian items are just too strong.

And the banlist wouldn't change the fact that it's random.

 

[The Mark]

What a stupid thread. No items on ever.

Get over it.

 

[smashbro29]

What a stupid thread. No items on ever.

Get over it.

it's a good thought might work

 

[Fireblaster]

What a stupid thread. No items on ever.

Get over it.

it's a good thought might work

it's a good thought might work

 

[Funkyboy]

It's not just about balance. It's also about brokenness. Certian items are just too strong.

And the banlist wouldn't change the fact that it's random.

Shouldn't a REAL pro be able to, you know, adapt to the random elements instead of just bypassing them?

 

[Chaosblade77]

Shouldn't a REAL pro be able to, you know, adapt to the random elements instead of just bypassing them?

Bad post... this topic is now officially a flame war, this guy brought the gas.

 

[RedrappeR]

But I mean, you look at most CCG's for example, like Magic or Yugioh-- or VS. even, which have HUGE followings-- and there's still an element of randomness.

I don't exactly agree with the OP, but I still think there should be a variation of the tournaments for Items and such. That's just me. I mean come on, we're going to have a HUGE community when this game comes out-- I mean what's the harm in just trying a VARIATION of the tournament set up with items.

We'll have bigger followings-- attract more people, and counter every one of those comments are detractors make about only using Fox on final destination.



I mean come on-- what would be the harm?

"Oh God! THEY'RE USING ITEMS! STRENGTH...SLOWLY...FADING...AWAY..."

EDIT: I can't believe I just used 2 CCG references from my childhood in this topic. Now I feel all nerdy and ****.

*sigh*

 

[Pi]

As far as I can remember, it's not the items themselves, it's the random exploding capsules and boxes that they come in. We can't ban those. And those fall under the section you have that should be banned, insta KO things.



Look, this site has been around for AGES, all the old methods and rules you want to challenge have been challenged before, and have been defended successfully. These threads need to stop, man THINK, use your HEAD, you're not the first person to have thought about this, and since this is the internet you can be sure you're not the first to have made a thread about it.



We all get your point, really we do, but these are TOURNY matches, these are not the world wide accepted way to play, if you don't like these rules then you don't have to use them.

SSB is about being good at your character. NOT being good at using items.

No, it's about having fun...

 

[Undrdog]

Couple things...

Funkyboy: You act like competitive gamers run around claiming they're perfect and that they are amazing at the game. Those people are called Trolls. The reason why they aren't in isn't just because they create randomness within the match. It's because it's easier to just say "No Items". Let's look at it this way, if 60% say no to items and 40% say no, then tournament directors will say "No Items, it's what the majority wants". Now let's look at it this way. You decide to turn on ten select items. Next thing you know you have seven different sides including the "No Items" group complaining about individual items you've decided were fair. What's worse there really won't be on clear Majority amongst the debaters.

The Mark: This is a forum open to discussion. If you don't want to discuss the topic then don't post. We all already know that there's a large number of people with that opinion. Unless you want to back your reasoning up in your post, don't post. You can't have a conversation when people post in that fashion.

Yuna: I know you're sick of having to explain all of this, but in the end shooting people down without asking them for their thoughts tend to cause tension in the community. The people with these ideas are made to think their opinions don't matter when they really do. Keep in mind, being blunt is a good thing. When it's accompanied by a deep explanation. Many things are random in this game. Including Peach's item pulls.

Kr3wman: Not sure if you're trying to be funny or make a point. But that's another example of how these threads die. One little joke is ok, but in a community where-in the average member takes offense quite quickly, it's only going to come off as flame baiting.


My opinion? I personally would rather leave items off. It's just an easier way to handle the tournament scene. Many items can break a match completely. Now if there were only a few items that caused incredible unbalance and it was a pretty universal thought that they were the only questionable items in the game then yes. Items would probably be ok. But the items seem to cater more towards a party-game crowd. Which is great! But just not for tournament play. Also note that if certain characters didn't have insane Final Smashes we'd probably be ok with them. The thing is a couple characters not only seem top-tier but also have unfair Final Smashes.

 

[oxyborb]

I am a casual player. I like 4 player timed matches with items, but I love watching tournaments.

Here are some rules I'd like to see for Brawl tournaments.
1. No items.
2. No smash ball.

Seriously, I'd like to see tournament kept professional, and casual kept casual. Tournies are fun to watch because they aren't cluttered with items and other stuff. The smash ball is not a balanced item. It should not be used in tournies, because, well, smash ball is free kills, not skilled kills.

 

[Papapaint]

But I mean, you look at most CCG's for example, like Magic or Yugioh-- or VS. even, which have HUGE followings-- and there's still an element of randomness.

Poor example. I played Magic competitively--got 3rd in regionals, didn't bother going to states--and the decks that win are the decks which either eliminate randomness as much as possible--either through sheer card advantage or tutoring-- or decks which quickly punish randomness and card drawing.

Even though there is an element of randomness, the best decks are built to minimize it. For example, when I've got 4 Birds of Paradise and 4 Llanowar Elves in my deck of 60 cards, I know it would be incredibly unlikely for me not to draw a one-drop mana booster. I can reasonably build my deck with the assumption that by 2nd turn, I have 3 mana to work with. There are the few times when you're praying for the perfect draw... but by then, it's often too late.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

Final smashes are banned too? That's just stupid.

 

[Conda]

SSB is about being good at your character. NOT being good at using items.

 

[Yuna]

Shouldn't a REAL pro be able to, you know, adapt to the random elements instead of just bypassing them?

Yes, I can obviously adapt to a random bob-omb spawning above my head while I'm forward-airing someone as an edgeguard. They'll die because of the forward-air, but since the bob-omb is stronger than my forward-air and I might have more damage than them, I'll die first. Wheeee!

But I mean, you look at most CCG's for example, like Magic or Yugioh-- or VS. even, which have HUGE followings-- and there's still an element of randomness.

This is this and that is that.

Smash is not Yu-Gi-Oh nor is it Magic.

I don't exactly agree with the OP, but I still think there should be a variation of the tournaments for Items and such. That's just me. I mean come on, we're going to have a HUGE community when this game comes out-- I mean what's the harm in just trying a VARIATION of the tournament set up with items.

Then host your own item-based tournaments.

And there's harm when a randomb item spawn decides an important match, be it between a lesser player and a great player, two lesser players or two great players.

We'll have bigger followings-- attract more people, and counter every one of those comments are detractors make about only using Fox on final destination.

Bigger does not necessarily equal better. The competitive community would never sacrifice skill-importance for its membership count to grow.

I mean come on-- what would be the harm?

Read above.

Final smashes are banned too? That's just stupid.

Have you played a good Marth or Toon Link? If so, have you played them with Final Smashes on?

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

Yes, I can obviously adapt to a random bob-omb spawning above my head while I'm forward-airing someone as an edgeguard. They'll die because of the forward-air, but since the bob-omb is stronger than my forward-air and I might have more damage than them, I'll die first. Wheeee!

Because that always happens every single time items are on.

 

[Pi]

If you don't like the way tournaments are run then DON'T PLAY THAT WAY! Stop complaining man! You aren't even entering! How do I know this? Because it's ****ing obvious!


Look, stop trying to say one way of play is better than another in terms of having fun. The major tournaments are looking for SKILL not FUN. Don't get me wrong, I don't have as much fun playing with items as I do playing just 1 on 1, and other people have more fun playing with items rather than 'Fox only. No Items. Final Destination.'


Seriously man...these threads are absolutely pointless! They don't solve a **** thing, this way of doing things has been tried and tested and agreed upon for years and years!


Do any of you wanting items in tournaments even enter tournaments? Is the no item thing deal breaking for you? If so WHY?

Why are WE wrong and you are right? Why are your item tourny's better than our no items tournys? Because one is MORE FUN? So it comes down to OPINIONS?


Why don't you guys just think about it...stop trying to change stuff you won't even be involved in...

 

[Yuna]

Because that always happens every single time items are on.

No, but the fact that it can and will happen is enough. That a lucky item spawn can decide the outcome of match is too much. Especially when so many matches will be decided by lucky item spawns.

A player can be the best yet lose due to bad luck while a bad player can win due to good luck. The Competitive gaming world wants tournaments that measure skill.

If you don't want that but would instead have something else, by all means, host your own tournaments.

 

[MookieRah]

Why don't you guys just think about it...stop trying to change stuff you won't even be involved in...

Amen.

I honestly don't see why people who don't want anything to do with competitive play feel the need to criticize it so much. It's not like we are telling people that it's the only way to play, or that our way is more fun for everyone guaranteed. If you don't like it, that's fine. If you like it, great. If you want to change things, be a part of the community or host items tournaments.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

Have you played a good Marth or Toon Link? If so, have you played them with Final Smashes on?

But final smashes are part of the character. Shouldn't final smashes be considered when you determine tier ratings? e.g. Marth is top tier because his final smash is godly, in addition to all his other advantages.

And it's not like there's no way to counter the final smash either. I'm not sure about Link's/Toon Link's, but can't you just step-dodge Marth's final smash? Plus you could always grab the smash ball before he does.

 

[SanjiWatsuki]

I can understand the sentiments from both sides of this situation. I will say that an item banlist would be beneficial on a competitive level, compared to the casual level, but there is still randomness involved. People who are playing at the tournament level do not wish to lose simply because another player had access to an item. By establishing a banlist, you are merely reducing how much items will effect the battle. By having no items at all, you eliminate that variable all together.

As for Final Smashes, I already talked about this in the Final Smash thread in the Tactical forum.

 

[PXG]

Why doesn't the forum staff make a rule that punishes those who create such threads?

 

[Egret]

But final smashes are part of the character. Shouldn't final smashes be considered when you determine tier ratings? e.g. Marth is top tier because his final smash is godly, in addition to all his other advantages.

The unique attack characters do with beamswords are "part of the character" in the same way but beam swords spawn randomly, as do smash balls.

 

[MookieRah]

But final smashes are part of the character. Shouldn't final smashes be considered when you determine tier ratings? e.g. Marth is top tier because his final smash is godly, in addition to all his other advantages.

I'm sorry yo. I really hate that argument. I really do. I hear it a lot, but it isn't a valid concern. I know it's not your fault that I've heard it a million times, so I'm not holding it against you or anything.

Here is the problem with that logic:

1: It requires a smash ball to do a final smash. No other move in the game requires an item to do it. It's not a standard part of the moveset.

2: You can turn it off. It's optional and was always meant to be optional. Sakurai intended for us to leave it to our discretion whether we wanted to use them or not.

3: Smash balls are random and many FS's are pretty much game breaking. If you are a fan of diversity you should be opposed to smash balls as they will polarize the tiers into good characters that have good final smashes.

4: Smash balls will only be turned off in tournament play. We want to maximize skill and minimize luck. Fun is achieved through fair competition.

That's pretty much it in condensed form.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat, I have three words for you: lol Super Sonic

While I don't want items in tournaments either, isn't it possible to shut off the game breaking things like bobombs, exploding crates/capsules/barrels and what not? I'm **** sure you can now shut off what got items banned completely in the first place.

 

[RedrappeR]

Yes, I can obviously adapt to a random bob-omb spawning above my head while I'm forward-airing someone as an edgeguard. They'll die because of the forward-air, but since the bob-omb is stronger than my forward-air and I might have more damage than them, I'll die first. Wheeee!


This is this and that is that.

Smash is not Yu-Gi-Oh nor is it Magic.


Then host your own item-based tournaments.

And there's harm when a randomb item spawn decides an important match, be it between a lesser player and a great player, two lesser players or two great players.


Bigger does not necessarily equal better. The competitive community would never sacrifice skill-importance for its membership count to grow.


Read above.


Have you played a good Marth or Toon Link? If so, have you played them with Final Smashes on?

Now you're just being smarmy and cynical. And nitpicking.

I play competitively in more fighting games and other media than smash, and while it may be a bit random-- that doesn't mean there isn't a skill to how you play when there ARE items.

And please don't be stupid and bring the "Smash isn't Yugioh or Magic". It's f uckin analogy. At least be smart enough to take it into account instead of just shutting your ears and yelling at the top of your lungs "NOT TRUE! NOT TRUE!"

We're talking about the competitive aspects of a game. It's completely valid. You want another example, then look at Puzzle Fighter. It still requires a high level of strategy, even with the random elements thrown in.

Just shoving off my analogies baselessly is stupid. We're arguing about it's viability for a competitive scene.

And you're also feeding into the whole "Elitist" ideology which every idiot who starts complaining about competitive gaming seems to quote. I'd rather have a large community of players compete against then a certain niche group who shows up to the same tournament over and over. And items still require skill. Whether you like or not, it's true. IT's a different playstyle when you play with the **** things, so why don't we just try it out and see.

What's gonna happen Yuna? Is Alderan gonna explode or something we do a couple tournaments with Items and see how they go? If they're fun or not? Is 95 percent of the world going to catch some horrible form of depression because we just turned on Bomb-ombs or Pokeballs? Is Kristie Allie gonna suddenly go "Gee, this looks like a good time to start making movies again?"

There's no harm in trying it so lets just do it.


EDIT: Once again. I'm the type who prefers the no Item rule, but that doesn't change the fact a tournament with items can't be a viable option worth testing. It'd at least bring some variaties to the proceedings. Why can't we do both? I'd be down to enter both of them really.

It'd be fun. One would be more a frenetic little circle, while the other would be tactical?

Come on Yuna-- you just seem really pissed in every topic. Why not let yourself have a little fun. This once.

I will buy you a puppy if this is the case.


Come on guys, let's see this as an OPTIMISTIC THING if anything. That doesn't mean we remove the competitive's tried and true "No items-- specific stage only" rules. I'm down with those. But sometimes, I'd like a little variety. I'd like to go a little crazy-- and still have that competitive tournament feel to go along with it. And the only other way to do that, is to start a FIGHT CLUB, and that's just really hard-- because Brad Pitt is a TERRIBLE split personality, and gets in the way of my Yoga.

All joking aside, what's the harm?

 

[kr3wman]

Kr3wman: Not sure if you're trying to be funny or make a point. But that's another example of how these threads die. One little joke is ok, but in a community where-in the average member takes offense quite quickly, it's only going to come off as flame baiting.

I don't really know what's going on these days, but internet forums seem to be going down a loophole. It's almost like everyone just wants to force people into their opinion, while not listening to others.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Proof Items don't belong in tournaments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_lkAN0TLBE

Now Its debatable who is better between DSF and Hugs

but in this match, skill wise, DSF is clearly out peforming hugs. he's just UNLUCKY enough to have Hugs happen to be in just the right place to get a warp star, two mushrooms and a bob-omb. not to mention he also dies from an exploding capsule. at least half of the damage (and 3 of the stocks i believe) DSF took in this match was from items, rather than his opponent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIdE7eg9cWU&feature=related
similar story here: the first stock sheik loses is set up for by being hit b y an exploding crate which knocks him up allowing samus to get several strong hits in that she wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
third stock, they are battling for position, when all of a sudden a red shell activates right where sheik happens to be, allowing samus to combo off of it.

 

[mangodurban]

items are fine if you want to take away skill and add luck.

 

[MookieRah]

The problem with the random issue is that because there is no warning, no indication of what the item is or where it will spawn prior to it's spawn, there isn't much of a strategy involved with getting the item.

Now I'm not saying that there are times where there is a strategy, in which both players actually have to fight for it, but some times it just basically puts it into the hand of a player. Also, the faster characters still have an advantage of getting the item to begin with. That's no good :-(. I don't think competitive players would be against items at all if it would show a small image of an item with a timer above it to designate when it would spawn. That would be pretty amazing, and it wouldn't lend itself to fast characters or slow characters. So many things open up with this kind of set up, and ultimately nobody can complain because you literally have to earn the item.

I wish they implemented items like that :-(.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat, I have three words for you: lol Super Sonic

While I don't want items in tournaments either, isn't it possible to shut off the game breaking things like bobombs, exploding crates/capsules/barrels and what not? I'm **** sure you can now shut off what got items banned completely in the first place.

its not possibly to shut off exploding crates/capsules/barrels on Melee at least (not without shutting off items completely)

 

[Thingy Person]

its not possibly to shut off exploding crates/capsules/barrels on Melee at least (not without shutting off items completely)

They can be turned off in Brawl.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

^Yes, I'm talking about Brawl. Brawl gives you the ability to shut off crates, barrels, capsules, and other things that made items fail completely in the competitive scene. That being said, I still don't like them in a competitive setting because they're a distraction.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Well, it hasn't been decided yet whether or not Brawl will officially be played without items.
its clear that the game will be gay and broken and luck-based if they do. but considering that apparently the only reason items were off in melee was because of exploding barrells, they might in fact suggest that we turn them on in Brawl. in which case you won't find me playing in any tournaments for money

 

[Lynkx]

Chucking a randomly dropped Star Rod at your opponent until they cry = WIN

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

I'm sorry yo. I really hate that argument. I really do. I hear it a lot, but it isn't a valid concern. I know it's not your fault that I've heard it a million times, so I'm not holding it against you or anything.

Here is the problem with that logic:

1: It requires a smash ball to do a final smash. No other move in the game requires an item to do it. It's not a standard part of the moveset.

2: You can turn it off. It's optional and was always meant to be optional. Sakurai intended for us to leave it to our discretion whether we wanted to use them or not.

3: Smash balls are random and many FS's are pretty much game breaking. If you are a fan of diversity you should be opposed to smash balls as they will polarize the tiers into good characters that have good final smashes.

4: Smash balls will only be turned off in tournament play. We want to maximize skill and minimize luck. Fun is achieved through fair competition.

That's pretty much it in condensed form.

Fair enough. I can certainly see why random item placement can lead to unfairness. But I still think if everyone had equal opportunity to get their final smash, then they should be allowed.

I don't think competitive players would be against items at all if it would show a small image of an item with a timer above it to designate when it would spawn. That would be pretty amazing, and it wouldn't lend itself to fast characters or slow characters. So many things open up with this kind of set up, and ultimately nobody can complain because you literally have to earn the item.

I wish they implemented items like that :-(.

Now this is a good idea. A perfect middle ground between casuals and competitives! Everybody would be happy!

In this instance I would be completely opposed to banning final smashes, because then everyone has a more-or-less equal chance to get their final smash (or negate the enemy's, however you prefer to think of it). Even if some of them are overpowered, that's Sakurai's fault, not the player's

 

[Pi]

Hm...so you can shut off barrels and capsules in brawl...


That WAS a major factor in melee, or at least it was a major argument.


But items are still random, and in case you haven't noticed a lot of the community is not happy about tripping.


I don't like random, tourny players don't play for random, they play for skill. Skill you can practice, you can get better at, you can hone and perfect, randomness you cannot, you can only minimize.


As long as there is an option, random will be minimized as much as it can be.

 

[6footninja]

SSB is about being good at your character. NOT being good at using items.

Its actually about being well rounded (if your lookin to be 'pro'). If items are part of the game, we have to accept it

 

[MookieRah]

@theONEjanitor
Calm down. That post made me cringe, you should have worded it so you didn't sound dumb. I know you are way way way smarter than that.

Items will more than likely not be a part of Brawl tournaments due to the fact that they are still random and can ultimately lead to more problems than it's worth. Camping is already viable enough without having items thrown into the mix. Even if you made a ban list you would add items that are generally better than most options, otherwise they serve no real purpose other than just to clutter up the battle field.

Also, I don't see the need to have anything luck based being part of competitive play. Yeah, there is skill in using items, but that doesn't mean that it's fair that they randomly spawn. The skill involved is negated by the fact that it leads to inaccurate results due to luck.

But I still think if everyone had equal opportunity to get their final smash, then they should be allowed.

The problem still is that some FS's are really useless. I don't mean "hard to pull off effectively" I mean they will never hit anyone that knows about how it works. Lucario's FS is so slow and so obvious that I've seen 3 people in a random FFA on youtube avoid it without any trouble. In that instance, Lucario's FS is more like a stage hazard than an FS. Lucario isn't alone in this.

Meanwhile there are characters like Marth which have either a 1HKO, or something that is close enough to it. These moves typically are easy to set up, most can be comboed into, and if all else fails you could use it as a counter cause of the invincibility frames. So basically, if your opponent is Marth, Toon Link, Ike, and etc you are put in a VERY bad situation, as you have to be VERY cautious with your approach, and you have to focus on not getting comboed. This is a massively severe disadvantage, because in an 8 minute time match they could literally turtle and stall until they grab final smashes and determine the match PURELY by using these incredibly effective attacks.

Final Smashes... again, another thing that could have been implemented better.